golden puffer vs dogface, other fish ideas?

[LisaD]

what are your opinions of one versus the other? I know how they look... what about temperament? what is the largest size you have seen in aquaria for either one?

real estate in my tank is limited. what I have now is:

porcupine puffer
emperor angels adult colors
large blue spotted rabbitfish
black tip grouper
zebra moray
Brazilian dragon moray

What one or two fish does this tank need to be truly awesome? I am willing to mkae some changes for a dream tamk. I am considering letting the zebra moray and the grouper go, but until then, any suggestions?

I really want a dogface puffer, but the porc killed mine. My plan now is to switch out the porc for a DF. What do you think of keeping the porc, and putting in a golden puffer instead?

I'm in no rush, just thinking. So let me know what you think would make this a great fish list for a 210.

[StayPuft]

I had a Golden Puffer and it was fairly agressive. In fact I had to sell it because it was biting the fins of all my fish, like the harlequin tusk, foxface and naso tang. On the other hand my current dogface is very peaceful. I also believe that golden puffers grow larger in size.

[LisaD]

Thanks, I think I'll stick with the idea of the dogface, then. I had a golden puffer once, and it was on the aggressive side for me. I was wondering if that is typical.

[JustinReef]

Golden puffers also get 18-19" but dogface stay about 12-13" and are much more peaceful. Dogface also have a better personality IMO but I have not actually owned a Golden before. Just going by what I hear and have seen in other peoples tanks.

[RBU1]

Lisa.....I thought you told me you had a porc kill a dog faced puffer. Why would you want to take that chance again?

[JustinReef]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13777560#post13777560 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RBU1
Lisa.....I thought you told me you had a porc kill a dog faced puffer. Why would you want to take that chance again?

She said she is replacing the porc with a dogface. The porc is going.

[RBU1]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13777766#post13777766 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by justinpsmith
She said she is replacing the porc with a dogface. The porc is going.

No this is what she said...
What do you think of keeping the porc, and putting in a golden puffer instead?

[JustinReef]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13777814#post13777814 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RBU1
No this is what she said...
What do you think of keeping the porc, and putting in a golden puffer instead?

Right...a Golden puffer. You said why would she try a dogface again when the porc killed the last one but she said she either wanted to replace the porc with a dogface OR keep the porc with a Golden. Different fish. Read the post again.

A Golden could easily hold his own with even an aggressive porc. A dogface not so much...

[RBU1]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13777911#post13777911 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by justinpsmith
Right...a Golden puffer. You said why would she try a dogface again when the porc killed the last one but she said she either wanted to replace the porc with a dogface OR keep the porc with a Golden. Different fish. Read the post again.

A Golden could easily hold his own with even an aggressive porc. A dogface not so much...

In my opinion it is not worth the risk. That is why I asked the question. If you want a different type of puffer get rid of the one you have. I wanted the Porc in my LFS but was talked out of it. I did not want to take a chance of the porc killing my dog face that I have had for a good time.

What is your opinion on adding a small porc with a larger dog face?

[JustinReef]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13777962#post13777962 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RBU1
In my opinion it is not worth the risk. That is why I asked the question. If you want a different type of puffer get rid of the one you have. I wanted the Porc in my LFS but was talked out of it. I did not want to take a chance of the porc killing my dog face that I have had for a good time.

What is your opinion on adding a small porc with a larger dog face?

Generally its fine to keep porcs with dogface but as Lisa experienced, it can go wrong. IMO its a risk to mix any aggressive fish and mixing puffers is no more risky than mixing fish like triggers or angels.

One thing you could try is keeping them separated in the tank for a few days so they can see each other but not get to each other. Eggcrate works great.

I have personally keep the two species together many times and never had an issue. Currently mu Burrfish (like a porc) and my dogface do not even look twice at each other.

Your right though, it can always be a risk. I think in your case though having the dogface first helps. Get a slightly smaller porc if you try but not too small. Close to the same size is good. You don't want to go too small.

Hope that helps :)

Are you considering it then? What size tank? What sized dogface?

[AquaKnight]

I would try to mix it up. A golden puffer is a bright yellow and a Porc is a yellow/tan. Too close of colors for me. Maybe a larger, already morphed from Golden, black and white Guinea Fowl, but it might be a bit big for a 210....

I'd replace the Porc with a Dogface, and add a Cuban Hogfish and a Xanthichthys triggerfish.

And Justin, not to call you out, but sure, anatomically the Burrfish is close to a Porc, but personaility and behavior, they couldn't be more polar opposites.

[JustinReef]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13778768#post13778768 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by AquaKnight407
I would try to mix it up. A golden puffer is a bright yellow and a Porc is a yellow/tan. Too close of colors for me. Maybe a larger, already morphed from Golden, black and white Guinea Fowl, but it might be a bit big for a 210....

I'd replace the Porc with a Dogface, and add a Cuban Hogfish and a Xanthichthys triggerfish.

And Justin, not to call you out, but sure, anatomically the Burrfish is close to a Porc, but personaility and behavior, they couldn't be more polar opposites.

I have had both and disagree completely. Polar opposites would be really, really pushing it...There is not a single species of puffer that could be consider "polar opposites" from the other species. They just all have way too much in common behavior wise. I think you may be able to compare tangs and puffers as polar opposites but not Burrfish and Porcs. They are almost identical in behavior, IME. Mine anyways. I have only had one burrfish though so maybe you have more experience with them. I have kept 3 different porcs in the past and all were just like my current burrfish.

But like I said, maybe you have kept more burrfish?

[JustinReef]

FWIW, Guinea Fowl Puffers that are in the black and white stage are female and have been known to be a little more mellow. Again I have no experience with this personally though. I did almost buy a Guinea Fowl once that was in its back and white stage and about 3" or so. It was just going to be too small to live with my huge stars and stripes. It was really beautiful. I have also seen a 12" or so Black and white at my LFS and they are very, very beautiful fish. So much cheaper than when in the golden (male) stage. My favorite personally is the stage where they are mostly golden but with black and white still remaining (mostly on the fins and back).

I do know of once person locally who bought a very young Guinea Fowl at about 4 inches and it was almost completely black and within about a year it changed colors. Not too much but it did get quite a bit of yellow along with white spots. So on occasion they do change back and forth in captivity...just not often at all.

[AquaKnight]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13778868#post13778868 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by justinpsmith
I have had both and disagree completely. Polar opposites would be really, really pushing it...There is not a single species of puffer that could be consider "polar opposites" from the other species. They just all have way too much in common behavior wise. I think you may be able to compare tangs and puffers as polar opposites but not Burrfish and Porcs. They are almost identical in behavior, IME. Mine anyways. I have only had one burrfish though so maybe you have more experience with them. I have kept 3 different porcs in the past and all were just like my current burrfish.

But like I said, maybe you have kept more burrfish?
Hmmm, maybe I should have said attitude instead... We have kept the same number of Spiny's, but I mean how much more passive and difficult to feed Burrfish are. Just going by what you said before, your Burrfish it the only fish you spot feed, otherwise she (I think call her a 'she'?) wouldn't get food. To me, that doesn't sound at all like a Porc. Even in a tank where a Porc is outclassed by better swimmers they still find a way to always be at the food. Burrfish also seem to stress sooo much more easily. I tried to add my Burrfish to my 125, and he wouldn't leave the corner, too affraid of the other fish, even when the other fish weren't acting aggressive. Also mine will puff up if the wrong person walks up to the tank and go and hide in the corner. I've never seen a bashful Porc.

[JustinReef]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13778995#post13778995 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by AquaKnight407
Hmmm, maybe I should have said attitude instead... We have kept the same number of Spiny's, but I mean how much more passive and difficult to feed Burrfish are. Just going by what you said before, your Burrfish it the only fish you spot feed, otherwise she (I think call her a 'she'?) wouldn't get food. To me, that doesn't sound at all like a Porc. Even in a tank where a Porc is outclassed by better swimmers they still find a way to always be at the food. Burrfish also seem to stress sooo much more easily. I tried to add my Burrfish to my 125, and he wouldn't leave the corner, too affraid of the other fish, even when the other fish weren't acting aggressive. Also mine will puff up if the wrong person walks up to the tank and go and hide in the corner. I've never seen a bashful Porc.

Sounds like we just have had different experiences with Burrfish then! Only having had one each though, its hard to say. Mine is not close to shy though...acts just like a porcupine, begging for food all day and nipping rocks when not being fed :)

She was being spot fed but not anymore. She does fine on her own. The spot feeding was because she was quite small compared to the others but she is growing very fast and getting very aggressive with food.

I don't know...I think it really depends on the individual like any fish but mine has been so much like a porc. The big difference though would be how hard they can be to get eating. Mine was simple and ate right away but thats not common.

I have actually never seen my burrfish puff up yet and she even lets me touch the top of her head/back.

[LisaD]

just got off work, so I missed most of this. Justin, thanks for clarifying my situation. I would NOT put a dogface with my killer porc, but was considering keeping the porc with a golden. really, I think I just want a dogface, will give up the porc.

Aquanight, I like your suggestions on the hogfish and trigger, will think about those when I'm ready to add stock. I've also considered a lionfish.

[RBU1]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13778376#post13778376 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by justinpsmith


Are you considering it then? What size tank? What sized dogface?

I am considering it. I took my son with me to the LFS and they had a decent size porc. He followed my son around the tank and my son who is 2 kept saying puf puf......I wanted to get him but I came home first and posted on RC. Lisa responded to me and that is what kept me from trying it. I would feel horrible if the new porc killed my dog face that I have had for several years.

The dog face is a decent size about 7-8 inches.

My tank is a 300 gallon. Thanks for the reply yes it helps. BILL

[LisaD]

RBU1, if it helps, it sounds as though my experience was the exception to the rule. Just watch the fish carefully. My porc was fine with the dogface for a while, then it "snapped" one day.

My tank is a 210, the porc was 5" at the time, the dogface was 6".

Because of my porc's history, it won't try mixing this particular fish with a dogface again. It is tempting, because even though it's a murderer, the porc is otherwise well behaved and is a really coof fish.

[Snausy]

My family LOVES my dogface...he's the "pet" and the rest are fish. He and my Australian Harlequin Tusk share the tank well.

If you don't have a Harlequin Tusk I'd highly recommend one. The Australian variety(blueish tail) is the best looking fish you can buy with lots of personality imho. Sorry for the bluffy pics but he's really fast:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v329/Snausages/NEW%20FISH%20PICS/P1010454.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v329/Snausages/NEW%20FISH%20PICS/P1010492.jpg

Yellow top with bright blue teeth...gotta love it! He's a wrasse family so he swims around endlessly weaving in and out of rocks.

Oh, and you just can't go wrong with a dogface...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v329/Snausages/P1010923-Copy-Copy.jpg

If you are into puffers I really loved my Stars and Stripes puffer:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v329/Snausages/Puffer%20pics/P1000385.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v329/Snausages/Puffer%20pics/P1000500.jpg

[LisaD]

Thanks for the advice and the great pics... I'd love a S&S puffer, but they get really big. I won't be able to upgrade my tank for some time, and I tend to get attached to puffers. So I'll probably avoid the bigger ones.

I should have said my porc is well behaved... now that he eliminated all my less aggressive fish. If I keep him, a dogface is out, and I really want a dogface, so he is most likely going back to the LFS.

Australian HTs are on of my favorites. I used to have one in the 210. The porc picked on it, too, then the whole tank got sick (long story). After several weeks of aggressive treatment, all survived except the HT. I am sure the stress from the porc's harassment contributed to its death. I'm a little gunshy about getting another, but I agree, they are amazing fish. I had one before that for several years.

If I want some of my favorite fish, I will have to lose the porc.

What do you all think of this list? Too much for a 210? Water quality is fine, but none of the fish except the eels are adult sized, though the rabbitfish is close and the emperor has adult colors. (*) is fish I don't have:

*dogface puffer (switch out the porc)
emperor angelfish
blue spotted rabbitfish
black tip grouper
zebra moray
Brazilian dragon moray
*lionfish - maybe a smaller species, like Russell's
*Australian HT or Cuban Hogfish or goldheart trigger (no trigger if I got a lion)

I am so wishing my tank was bigger. I'd like another angel too, but I don't think that's going to work unless I pare back.

A local fish keeping friend may be interested in the zebra moray. I'm pretty attached to Mr. Magoo, so if my friend doesn't take him, I'll probably hold on to him.

Decisions, decisions

[Snausy]

You want a long story try coming home from a vacation to find that your landlord decided to enter your apt without asking and paint the whole place in toxic mold killing paint without any ventilation. Your whole tank with 6 year old S&S puffer, HT and Niger trigger all are all dead or just about dead. My puffer stayed alive for one more day just to say goodbye. It was horrible...

Landlord: "I don't understand, how do toxic fumes in the air get in the water? It's underwater!"

:( Anyway...back to happy things like NEW FISH! :)

[LisaD]

OMG, that's horrible. I think I remember you previously posting, a while ago, about this. Your tank was really nice. Stupid landlord!

What do you think of the stock list? My gut feeling is that I'm probably overstocked by at least one fish. But I'm looking for enablers. ;)

[Snausy]

You are overstocked...lol....but that's this evil hobby for ya. I just reduced my 100g tank to the dogface and Tusk with three little yellow-tail blue damsels. That's it! It's a much much happier tank now. I'll get a couple more when I get my new 240 set up.

I'll be your pusher! Switch the porky for a dogface(much nicer, my dogface only cares about me...he doesn't care about anything in the tank unless it's food. I swear he'd swim over to me in the livingroom to hang out if he could) oh and pickup a new Tusk too! You KNOW you want a new tusk!

I know you want that goldheart but I think adding a trigger is a MUCH riskier move and could end in more trouble than it's worth. Watching a trigger beatdown isn't why I have a tank, ya know? Been there, done that...

[AquaKnight]

After you switched the puffers and added the new guys, traditionally, you'd be a bit overstocked. But with that fancy new skimmer you have Lisa ;), you should be alright if you maintain water quality, and if all the fish get along (the latter 'if' is sort of a pretty big one).

[LisaD]

Good advice, guys. I agree adding a trigger to the mix could be risky. So how badly am I overstocked with this list? None of the fish I have, except the eels, are over 8" at this time. But I'd like to keep them for life. Will consider giving up the zebra moray and black tip grouper, but the rest all need to stay. And even those two will be hard to give up.

dogface puffer
emperor angel
blue spotted rabbitfish
black tip grouper
zebra moray
Brazilian dragon moray
Australian HT

It's hard to imagine a tank without tangs or triggers...

[AquaKnight]

Toss a little Sargassum Trig on the list. He'll do fine in there. I don't see too many aggressive or pushy fish on that list.

[LisaD]

:D

[JustinReef]

I think that list looks great and not really overstocked IMO. But you know how I keep my tanks ;) The skimmer will be your best friend. Mine is the best thing I ever bought in this hobby, equipment wise.

Stay away from the Stars and Stripes! I know you already know that but they get soooooo hard to sell or even give away to a good home once big. I know from growing them up twice. The first one grew to about 16" in two years and the second to 18" in about 3 years. Both outgrew the 180G they were in (not together of course).
Amazing fish though...I got so attached to them!

I have owned a HT that was aggressive, so you do have to watch them too a bit. He didn't kill other fish or even really nip them but was territorial. Kind of just acting like a typical large species of wrasse. They are very nice and active though and personality is great. Mine used to carry stuff like rocks or macro algae around the tank all day long.

AquaKnight has a good idea about the small Sargassum...You NEED a trigger!!! Just ask Recty...he'll explain why ;)

[LisaD]

Justin, you are my favorite enabler. Especially since your tanks are beautiful and your fish are healthy.

I DO need a trigger. :) Recty, feel free to explain. I'll think about the sargassum. Would a blue throat be hardier, I wonder? I've heard sargassums don't have the best survival.

I've never owned an aggressive HT, they've always been very gentle, and were more likely to be bullied than to be the bullies.
Years ago, when I lived in Minnesota, I had a Diana's hogfish that had the greatest personality. It had a big mouth full of teeth and always looked like it was grinning. So maybe that, instead of a HT, though HTs are really great fish.

I'm going to avoid the S&S puffer for exactly the reason you state. Too easy to get attached, then hard to sell. My fish are pets, and even the "bad" ones, like the porc, are very hard to let go.

Thank you for all the input, guys, it's very helpful.

[billvan]

If your thinking about at Trigger, I have a Black Hawaiian that has lived peacefully with a Dog Face Puffer, Zebra and Snowflake Flake Eel, Hippo Tang and a Emperor Angel for 2 years. The Trigger is the Boss, but all tends to be peaceful. Only problems ever was either the Trigger, or DF or together killed a Lion Fish on day after living together peacefully for almost a year. :(

[Recty]

Ooops, heh, I didnt see my name in this thread until now.

Need a trigger? Only if you want one of the most intelligent, active and fun to watch fish possible for an aquarium.

Otherwise stick with something besides triggers :)

[LisaD]

Recty, I love triggers, and I agree with you. They are one of the reasons I am in the hobby. Though I find that their relatives, puffers, boxfish and some filefish also have a lot of personality and intelligence. And dogface puffers are one of my favorite fish. I really want one in my tank.

My experience with a pinktail trigger, who was supposed to be mellow, yet harassed my dogface puffer, is the reason I am a little hesitant to get a "real" trigger like a goldheart. I'm pretty confident that with a sargassum or blue throat, all will be peaceful. But the coolest triggers are the more aggressive ones. They just won't mix that well (I think) in my tank.

I'm starting to think I had the most wuss dogface on earth.

[Snausy]

I love triggers too...my niger trigger was a favorite for the family. We all loved his attitude and personality.

Too bad he turned into a total jerk that beat down every fish in my tank. He tried to beat down my puffer but the puff would fight back and the whole family would see it and root for the puffer like we were watching a main-event.

And that was just a niger...I'd hate to see a clown go bad.

[JustinReef]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13795819#post13795819 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Snausy
I love triggers too...my niger trigger was a favorite for the family. We all loved his attitude and personality.

Too bad he turned into a total jerk that beat down every fish in my tank. He tried to beat down my puffer but the puff would fight back and the whole family would see it and root for the puffer like we were watching a main-event.

And that was just a niger...I'd hate to see a clown go bad.

This seems to be a normal trend/behavior for Niger Triggers. I agree, I would hate to see a clown get angry and snap :(


Lisa...you need to get the dogface! It's not hard to tell (or hear) from your posts how much you want one (another). Actually I wish I could ship to the US because I have one that would be perfect for you since my Trigger hates him. But of course they are easy to find anyways.

I guess you wouldn't even consider trying another with the porc? Probably not the best idea. Did you ever come to a conclusion though about whether it really was the porc or maybe Brazilian? I think you said you were not sure if maybe the porc was just joining in after the Brazilian had harmed the dogface. I hate to say this (or bring it up again) but you should have been able to tell from the wounds. A porc I owned once bit my Manila Puffer on the belly and it leaves a very distinct marking. Like this:

( )

Anyways, just curious because I would hate to see you have to give up the porc! I also just have such a hard time thinking a porcs teeth could puncture a dogfaces skin very easily (their teeth are designed to crush more than rip)...The Brazilian though, I can see that (ripping teeth).

Sorry about bringing it all up again. You may not have wanted to think about it...

[Recty]

It is unfortunate that the coolest looking/acting fish do seem to be the most aggressive, but I guess that's how they survive in nature when they look like a piece of artwork :)

[LisaD]

Hi Justin,

I have continued to wonder whether it was the porc or the Brazilian dragon moray that killed the df puffer, and happened to talk with my husband about it again yesterday. He told me that he was sure it was the porc because on that day (it was a Friday) he saw the porc relentlessly chasing the dogface all over the tank. The next day when I discovered the mortally wounded dogface, there was a large chunk of meat missing from the fleshy part of the dogface's tail. It was neither the kind of rip I'd imagine the eel would do, nor exactly like a puffer bite ( ). Thought it was closer to the puffer bite, but VERY deep, to the bone. There were also wounds on the belly, hard to remember exactly how they looked. I was thinking maybe the porc seriously wounded the dogface, then the eel may have went after the weakened fish. My husband insists the porc was the aggressor and had to be responsible. He has been feeling really bad that he didn't call me at work.

I am definitely going to get a dogface, just waiting to be sure my QT is no longer infected from the black dogface, and waiting for the right one to come along. I'd still be interested in getting a black or dalmation dogface puffer. The only places I know that have any at this time are thatfishplace (don't trust them for quality of livestock) and liveaquaria diver's den (rare color morph, too pricey for me). I may call reefhotspot, they had some listed but sold out quickly.

If I found a dogface that was somewhat assertive and I got it over a weekend when I could keep a close eye on the tank, I *might* try a dogface with the porc... Thouth you are right, not the best idea. :) My LFS has a normal dogface, and they are the ones that would take the porc for me. If I really end up liking theirs, I'll probably take it.

At this point, the porc is acting like a model citizen, and is really charming, the way it uses the whole length of the tank and stays at the front of the glass. It's acts and looks very different from the Arothron puffers. So I hate to say it, considering its "record", but I really like this puffer too.

Whatever I get, I'm going to need to hold off for just a little bit, though. I have a lot of travel coming up. I'll be out of town Thanksgiving weekend, then the first week in December for business, then about a week over Christmas. I think I should make sure I'm around before I add any more fish to the 210.

Recty,

You're right, the most interesting and intelligent fishes seem to have the greatest potential for destruction. It's always a challenge to find the right balance of tankmates that are interactive but not murderous. :)