The stars align - False Percs finally lay again!

[jbrinker]

Finally, after two months (to the DAY) they lay again! The nest appeared this afternoon sometime when no one was home. Looks small - perhaps 200 eggs. I wonder if she will lay more tonight or tomorrow.

Anyone following my other thread probably is familiar with my situation, and I still don't know exactly what I did right. But, that aside, I have a few more concerns now.

I have a GREAT nano and rotifer culture going downstairs. I can harvest a TON of rots every day. I had been putting a healthy dose in the tank with their food about 3-4 times a week. They go nuts. I think this may have helped.

I have finally mastered nano (after 2 tries) and rots (3 tries there too). But I think I have it nailed now.

SO, next week I have to be ready for babies. This time they layed on the glass, so no chance of removing the eggs. I think I am going to try the "harvest eggs with a cut straw" method described in great detail over on marinebreeder.org.

I will use a large glass funnel as a hatchery like he says to in that thread. I plan to harvest only about half the eggs - this is just a trial and I want them to feel like they had a hatch naturally.

The big problem I have is, my nano and rot cultures are all at half-strength seawater (still). How do I add the rots/nano to the fry tank without shocking the rots? I dont want to crash the cultures (god no!) now. Should I gently raise the culture sg for the rots/nano? Or will "enough" rots survive?

I have only a glass floating hydrometer.

Advice?

[MYDRAAL]

I'de be more concerned about the rots. What are they and your larva tank at exactly? The rots can tolerate a change of up to .007 without going into shock.

[jbrinker]

That's what I meant, sort of. Both the rots and nano are at half-strength. I make full-strength seawater, and cut it 1:1 with RO water. I use this for make-up in the nano, and when cleaning the rots.

I have not measured the sg, I will tonight.

My concern is that I use the nano water to feed the rots. So really it all needs to be the same sg.

I guess I will carefully raise it over a few days. Unless I could keep the eggs/larvae at half-strength as well?

(would moving them from 1.022 to half strength kill them (as eggs))?

Jeff

[MYDRAAL]

I would get rots and phyto to a sg of 1.014 and have your larva tank at 1.021. That will put you in the .007 range when you have to add rots to the larva tank. Slowly over the next few days like you said shouldn't harm either. IMO I wouldn't lower the sg of the larva tank much more than stated. If you do just make sure you stay in the .007 range, because it will shock the rots and they'll stop swimming, which will cause larva to stop eating them. 1.022 is not full strength seawater that's why I asked for exact sg because some of us keep our tanks slighlty under natural seawater. What made you decide to start up both cultures at half strength if you don't mind me asking :D

[jbrinker]

OK, that's the plan then. I will restart one of the nano cultures tonight (its almost gone) using full strength SW. I think I will simply take the pint or so remiaining and drip 1.022sg water into it slowly overnight. By morning it should be up to close to full strength, and hopefully still alive.

If that works, I will do the same with the others.

For the rots, I guess I will do the same. Sieve them down so they are concentrated, put about 1/4 of their water back in and slowly drip full strength water in overnight.

The marinebreeder.org website seems down - which sucks because I had planned to use the method outlined there. Hopefully it comes back online, or I can remember enough about it.

J

[FB]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13789850#post13789850 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jbrinker

The marinebreeder.org website seems down - which sucks because I had planned to use the method outlined there. Hopefully it comes back online, or I can remember enough about it.

J

I have not been able to get on for 4 days!

[jbrinker]

Well good then at least its not just me :-)

The method I was going to use was the one outlined there a few weeks ago (when I saw it, thread was older I think).

Harvest:
Whomever it was used a method of harvesting the eggs with a diagonal cut soda straw hooked to a tube as a siphon. Gently working the tip under an egg pops it loose, and the get sucked to a container for collection.

Hatching:
He then added them to a contraption made with a large glass funnel. The bottom of the funnel is plugged with a stopper, and an air tube inserted in the stopper as a bubbler. Air pump is kept above funnel level on a shelf.

The slow bubbles create a current, and the eggs slide down the funnel, and get rotated back up. He used this method anywhere up to a few days before anticipated hatch.

On hatch night, he'd keep them completely dark for a couple hours, then stop the bubbling and siphon any larvae to a container, and into the rearing tank. Cover the eggs if any remain and wait for more hatch later or next night.

Rearing:

He used a "flat globe type fish bowl" - you know the kind. Round vertically but with a flat front and back - like a large horizontal cylinder. This he put a bubble tube low on one side, slow bubbles create a circular current. Add rots and nano. The larvae swim into the current and get lots of rots that way. Crud collects at the bottom and can be siphoned off every day or two.

After that things were pretty much the same as everyone else.

Comments? Anyone else see that thread?

I plan to harvest only about half of the nest. I want to let them keep most of it, hoping that they continue breeding. Plus, I now view this as an experiment and trial, and want to see how far I get.

Jeff

[FB]

I believe what you are talking about is a kreisel.

I'm not sure if this would work with clown eggs. From what I have read these are mainly for pelagic breeders.

BTW I just got onto MOFIB. Check yours!

[jbrinker]

Sweet.

Here is the thread I was talking about :

http://www.marinebreeder.org/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=2213&highlight=straw

[FB]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13791297#post13791297 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jbrinker
Sweet.

Here is the thread I was talking about :

http://www.marinebreeder.org/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=2213&highlight=straw

Good Read - Thanks!

[jbrinker]

OK, Tonight's the night probably. I am fully prepared this time (I think)...

- I have about 5 gallons of very thick rotifer going full blast
- I have about 9 gallons of good nano
- I have raised the Sg of all my cultures to match the tank (and brood) water

I purchased a huge glass funnel on ebay, and have that all rigged up as in that thread I posted. I'm using a 5-gallon aquarium to hold the funnel, and will fill the aquarium partially and put a heater in it to maintain temperature at 82F (same as tank). (Water in tank is just to allow heater to indirectly heat the funnel)

I will be buying a 2-gallon fishbowl today (they have them at petco) for the larvae rearing tank (kreisel).

The eggs started to show shiny eyes last night, and this morning they are all still there. So I think tonight is the night. They were laid mid-day last Wednesday. Tank temp is 82F. Parents are happy (for now).

This evening about 9:30pm I will harvest about half the eggs with the straw and tube method, transfer to the funnel, bubble until about 11pm, and lights out. I will come back down a couple hours later and check, and transfer any hatchlings to the fish bowl.

I plan to add rotifers and nano at that time, and keep the lights on dimly 24/7 as instructed for the first 7-10 days. I guess at that point it just becomes a battle to grow enough rotifers and nano to keep up with the larvae.

I plan to let the parents keep about half the nest. Its a small nest anyway, and I want them to get on with laying a new one. I don't even anticipate rearing any of these past meta, but I hope to. Maybe I will at least learn enough to get the next group through.

Someone mentioned a food to feed - oothime? rather than BBS. Id rather NOT have to hatch something else at this point...

Any advice appreciated. I will take some pics and report the success or failure...

Jeff

[FB]

Sounds like an excellent plan of action.

I can't wait to see how the straw/ kriesl method works for you.

I still recommend BBS but you can go from rotifers to Otohime A.

For more info on Otohime - http://www.reed-mariculture.com/otohime/

Good Luck

FB

ps. Don't forget the PICS!
:D

[jbrinker]

Well... not so good news.

Tuesday night I pulled about 1/2 the nest, using the straw method. No problem there. I bubbled them in the funnel ever since, making the lights work in sync with the tanl\k.

No hatch tuesday night.... Bubbled all day yesterday, and no hatch last night either. They were laid last Wed, Daytime.

Temp is 75 (I mis-stated 82 earlier).

They are all still alive, I have taken some under a magnifier in a petri dish to check - still see heartbeat and their little eyes follow me from inside the egg.

Are they going to hatch? The remaining ones in the tank were GONE at 1am tuesday night. I came back down after lights out to see if any hatched, and collect with a flashlight, and there were NONE, no eggs, no remnants, no fry. I think mom and dad ate them.

So, Im not sure if I havent waited long enough, or what to do. Is there a situation where they cant hatch but are alive? Can I help them hatch? They still seem to have decent sized yolks.

Jeff

(I have pics, but no time to post them right now)

[FB]

I have heard that if they are in a strong egg sac than they may not be able to push their way out without any leverage when done in this manner

FB

[jbrinker]

Do you think it's possible to "force hatch" them? I thought about giving them tonight to try again, and if not then taking a small pair of tweezers, hold the sack by the former attachment point, and using rounded tool (paperclip?) to sort of "roll" them from the bottom. I.e. "POP" them out. I realize this is probably likely to kill some, but I want to try something. Clearly they will die in the sack at some point...

Jeff

[FB]

Thats sound way to complicated and time consuming to even try.

You might consider taking half out and put them in none moving water. When they settle they might be able to push on the bottom to get out.

At this point what have you got to lose trying either.

FB

[jbrinker]

Yeah.. I sort of half tried that... does not work. Not without a full micro surgery set up anyway :)

I have some posts over on MOFIB that suggest that sometimes the tumbling method delays hatch a day or even two. Also, I may have pulled them a day too soon. I don't think so, but its possible. I just went dark downstairs and we will see what happens tonight.

Thanks!!
JEff

[jbrinker]

Update:

Set the eggs to tumbling last night, lights out at 10:30pm. Went back down to check at 12:30am, ALL had hatched. 100%. I had about 50 I'd guess, all healthy looking and spirited, darting around the funnel.

I siphoned them all into the glass bowl (2 gallon flat sided), and added water from the main tank to top up. Moved the heater from the hatching apparatus, and turned on a slow bubble on the right side of the bowl half-way down.

Added a good scoop of rotifers, and a half-cup of nano water. Went back to bed.

8am, lost all but about 15-20. Probably 60% dead on the bottom. Ammonia alert badge just barely showing on light green. (0.02)

Siphoned the dead and any dirt from the bottom, topped up with tank water. Temp had crept to 82F (From 75) so I lowered the temp on the heater one click.

I decided I didn't like the ammonia situation, so I added a small live rock from the main tank (about 3in x 2in). By this afternoon ammonia was at 0ppm. The remaining larvae appear healthy, and are feeding vigorously. I siphoned a bit (1c) and added some more nano this evening.

No more deaths since this am.

I think two or three things contributed to the deaths.

1) The fry hatched "late" by at least one day, perhaps two. Under inspection the day of the hatch, they had pretty small yolk sacks remaining. None had any apparent upon hatch. Some may have starved before learning to eat?

2) Ammonia from the dead, from the rots, and from the nano itself. 0.02 is not much though.

3) Temp increase (coupled with ammonia). I had not intended this, and will note to turn the heater down next time (or use another one).

I was about to use an "ammonia lock" product, but think the piece of live rock works even better. The larvae seem to like it, and none appear to have any problem with it. The circulation keeps them in constant motion anyway.

I look forward to any insight into the deaths anyone may have...

Jeff

[jbrinker]

Day 4 - still 10 remain alive. No deaths since day 2.

So, for the log, here's the recap:

- Friday 1am hatch. All eggs hatch, 100%, about 50 fry swimming vigorously. Siphon to 2 gallon flat sided fishbowl. Add tank water. Add rotifers and greenwater. Go to bed.

- Friday 8am: ~30 dead. About 15 still alive, seemingly fine. Ammonia alert badge is on the lowest level - 0.02. Siphon out dead and any debris, replace with tank water. Temp 76F

- Friday 8pm: 2 more dead, siphon out. Rots have cleared water, add more greenwater and a small piece of live rock from display tank (~2"x3"x2"). Ammonia still at 0.02 alert. Temp 76F

- Friday 10pm: Ammonia at 0.00. 1 more dead. Clean up, go to bed.

- Saturday: One more dead (perhaps from earlier, just found body). Clean tank, add more greenwater. Water changes amount to only about 2 cups at a time. Begin to increase temp per reccomendation from MOFIB. By end of day, temp is 78F.

- Sunday: No more deaths. 10 remain, and are very active feeders. Big silver bellies. Keep cleaning ~2c a day of water, and replacing with a mix of greenwater and tank water (just enough green to keep a light green tint). Temp now at 80F.

- Monday: Still very active, getting visibly larger. All 10 remain. Same every day now, clean and add water/greenwater. Target temp is now 82F.

General notes: Feeling is that the low temps I chose to use retarded the hatch and caused the larvae to use up much of their energy reserves before hatching, thus causing the low survival rate. I will use 82F-85F next time and see what happens. Other thought is that the temp swing from the hatching vessel to the fishbowl may have caused additional stress. Mental note to have the bowl set up, filled and temp adjusted ahead of time next time.

I have been keeping the lights on 24/7 as noted in the thread I referenced above. The larvae seem to be active 24/7, feeding continuously. I have had to only add rotifers one time - they seem to be multiplying in the fishbowl with the addition of greenwater. I have kept densities high, the larvae can hardly move without bumping into a rotifer.

With more larvae, I would probably have to add more rots. I t hink I will make an effort over the next few days to change a bit more than 2c of water - more like 1qt - each day. I don't like the way the rots seem to pollute the water. Although, as long as the ammonia stays low, should not be a problem.

I think the addition of a seasoned live rock is a BIG plus for a larva tank. The ammonia went down almost instantly. Even in a tank (rather than kreisel) it would be a huge advantage. The larvae do not get caught on it, or seem annoyed by it. I see no reason to use a completely bare tank when the benefits of some biological filtration are quite clear.

I welcome comments, and will update with more info as I proceed. Mother and father are cleaning again, and mom is HUGE. I expect a big spawn sometime later this week.

Oh, and I have pics too. Will post later...

[jbrinker]

Ohyeah, a question, at what day does one generally start introducing BBS or Otohime A? I have ordered some Otohime but it will be a few days until it gets here. I have brine to hatch if I need to. How long can they go on just rots?

Jeff

[FB]

It varies.

If you have a ton of rotifers you can wait to introduce bbs until days 8-12. If you don't you can go with BBS as early as day 4. Oto A can be introduced pretty early...if it is to large they won't eat it.

My last batch got bbs on day 5 and they started meta on day 6.

FB

[jbrinker]

I have a TON of rots. I think I will just keep them loaded up on those until the otohime gets here. Maybe I'll hatch some BBS - haven't tried that yet. I read how to decap the cysts, maybe if I have time I will give this a whirl tonight. They are on day 4 now.

I was just about to call Reed to confirm my order and give my CC no. I was going to order A, B1 and B2. But then got thinking that I could maybe go A, B2, C1? I guess my goal would be to NOT have to use BBS except as a supliment, and have enough to get them to the point where I can feed regular food (frozen mix, crushed Thera, etc).

[FB]

The only thing about going from rots to oto is that at some point the rots will not fulfill the dietary needs as the use more energy catching them than the rots return in nutrition. If they reach this point before aggresively eating the oto you may have a problem.

FB

[jbrinker]

Well, I decapsulated and hatched some brine. Had a little problem though, as the water was too cold I think, and they took over 24h to hatch.

Once hatched, I just scooped some up and dribbled them into the bowl. I hope that was OK.

Is there a concern with brine that feeding them once they are too large is bad for the fry? Or does it really not matter much?

I will hatch some more tonight, and see if I can keep the water temp a little warmer. Basement is just too cool - probably 63F.

Jeff

[FB]

Once the brine are two big they get sharp points on their appendages. When the clowns eat them they can rupture the clowns stomach.

You should not add bbs water to your tank....not a lot anyway.

FB

[jbrinker]

How fast do they get "too big"? Here's why I ask...

I lost 4 yesterday. I had not lost any for days. Only difference was I fed some of the newly hatched brine (Less than 24h post hatch).

I did pour the brine and their water into the bowl. About a cup all together. Next morning, 2 dead. Later that afternoon 2 more dead.

So I then decided to do a rather large water change, and siphoned out the dead and about 30% of the water. I dripped in new water from the main tank over about an hour. No more deaths since.

The dead had nice full stomachs. They were healthy and feeding just hours before death. Lots of rotifers and now small brine shrimp in the bowl. (Enough that they have no problem catching them, not so many to choke the bowl)

The fry water smells fine. Looks greenish like it should. I add just enough nano each day to keep it tinted. I change about 10% a day usually. I clean the bottom every day, sometimes twice. Ammonia has been 0 since day 2.

I just wonder what killed those 4 - thats almost 50% of what I had left...

Is it OK to just leave the brine shrimp in the bowl and let them grow? There are a few thousand in there. They seem to all hang in a cloud together.

On another note, last night the mated pair ate about 25% of their eggs. One whole corner of the nest. I fed extra heavy this am, but am not sure why they would do that...

[jbrinker]

Well, things were going SOOO well until last night...

I had 4 make it through Meta, they were little clowns. Complete with head stripe and clown-antics. All 4 were hosting on the heater, swimming around, and generally acting fine.

I decided that, since I have another batch of eggs ready - and I need to be able to make the room pitch dark for hatch out tonight - that I would subject the babies to a "dim period" overnight. I shut off the overhead light over their tank, leaving only the light from the nano cultures. It was "dim" for sure but not dark.

All 4 of the baby clowns died. I found them all crammed into the ridge at the bottom of the fish bowl, where the crud all collects.

This was the first time the lights had gone off since hatch. I suspect that what happened was they became confused, and swam down into the corner, and downed/suffocated. I have no other plausable explanation - they were all doing so well, hunting, and growing rapidly.

For this next batch, I will keep the light on 24/7 again, and when I do move them from the fishbowl, I will maintain an overhead "moon light" even at night for at least the first couple months.

Anyone had similar experiences? There was virtually no circulation last night, I had the bubbles at the lowest level. Just 1 every 5-10 seconds. (Maybe I should have kept it high?)

This is so frustrating. Makes me sad, and mad all at the same time. Almost want to not bother with this next nest, but I will anyway :-)

J

[FB]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13899489#post13899489 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jbrinker
Well, things were going SOOO well until last night...

I had 4 make it through Meta, they were little clowns. Complete with head stripe and clown-antics. All 4 were hosting on the heater, swimming around, and generally acting fine.

I decided that, since I have another batch of eggs ready - and I need to be able to make the room pitch dark for hatch out tonight - that I would subject the babies to a "dim period" overnight. I shut off the overhead light over their tank, leaving only the light from the nano cultures. It was "dim" for sure but not dark.

All 4 of the baby clowns died. I found them all crammed into the ridge at the bottom of the fish bowl, where the crud all collects.

This was the first time the lights had gone off since hatch. I suspect that what happened was they became confused, and swam down into the corner, and downed/suffocated. I have no other plausable explanation - they were all doing so well, hunting, and growing rapidly.

For this next batch, I will keep the light on 24/7 again, and when I do move them from the fishbowl, I will maintain an overhead "moon light" even at night for at least the first couple months.

Anyone had similar experiences? There was virtually no circulation last night, I had the bubbles at the lowest level. Just 1 every 5-10 seconds. (Maybe I should have kept it high?)

This is so frustrating. Makes me sad, and mad all at the same time. Almost want to not bother with this next nest, but I will anyway :-)

J

Why did you turn the bubble rate down....I would blame this not the dark. All my fish young and old are in the pitch black every night. There is no need for lights at night. Once they are passed meta they can handle a pretty good flow in the tank even power filters.

FB

[FB]

I know this is after the fact since you have lost your remaining fish but hopefully the answers to your questions will help you in the future.


I did pour the brine and their water into the bowl. About a cup all together. Next morning, 2 dead. Later that afternoon 2 more dead.

Don't need that much... I'd say about 10-20 bbs per fish 2-3x a day especially if you are still feeding rots. Try to add as little water as possible. You can strain them just like you would with rots.


So I then decided to do a rather large water change, and siphoned out the dead and about 30% of the water. I dripped in new water from the main tank over about an hour. No more deaths since.


Good... dripping new water in slowly is best


The dead had nice full stomachs. They were healthy and feeding just hours before death. Lots of rotifers and now small brine shrimp in the bowl. (Enough that they have no problem catching them, not so many to choke the bowl)


Did the full bellies appear to have any red in them. If so this would be internal bleeding probably from a perforated stomach


The fry water smells fine. Looks greenish like it should. I add just enough nano each day to keep it tinted. I change about 10% a day usually. I clean the bottom every day, sometimes twice. Ammonia has been 0 since day 2.

Excellent


I just wonder what killed those 4 - thats almost 50% of what I had left...

My first batch was 5 stick with it you will pick it up.


Is it OK to just leave the brine shrimp in the bowl and let them grow? There are a few thousand in there. They seem to all hang in a cloud together.

Yes and No. That is way to many to start with. Once they start to grow they will pollute your water very quickly. However if you see them starting to die you know your water quality is going south. The brine will probably die before your larvae.


On another note, last night the mated pair ate about 25% of their eggs. One whole corner of the nest. I fed extra heavy this am, but am not sure why they would do that...
Proabably has nothing to do with food. It's the father being a good house keeper. The eggs were probably unfertalized.

[jbrinker]

Ugh... Actually, I was worried about EXACTLY this scenario. Them getting "stuck" in the crease at the bottom of the tank. I thought, since the flow would be low, they could just roam about. I think now I should have kept the flow high(er).

If you follow that thread over on MOFIB, the recommendation is to keep the lights on to prevent them from crashing into the bottom and getting stuck in the crease. I thought that the lack of current would prevent them from getting swept into the crease - it appears to have done the opposite.

I think, in the future (i.e. next batch - probably tonight) I will keep the circulation and light on 24/7 for the first two weeks, then transfer them to a regular 5 or 10 gallon tank with a sponge filter and a piece of live rock. After that I will start day night cycling.

RE: the brine and deaths- Yes, at least one of the dead on the first day of BBS did indeed have blood in his stomach. Not the others though. Not conclusive I suppose, and I did pour about 1c of brine water into the tank. I have strained them since then, and had no more problems. I think it possibly had to do with the brine water (which I smelled later and it was nasty smelling).

Do you normally just hatch a small batch of brine? I read that they are most nurtritious when first hatched (i.e. first 24h post hatch).

I really hope to get at least 1/4 of this upcoming hatch through to 4 weeks post hatch. I now have two fishbowls, and can split the hatch into two if it is large enough. I think 200 or so larvae per bowl should be fine for the first two weeks. With probably greater water changes than I had been doing with just the 10 or so.

Thanks for the thought about the eating of the eggs- hadn't thought about them being non fertilized. They have not eaten any more since the first couple days, and they all have silver eyes now. I'm planning to pull and tumble them tonight. I expect hatch tonight or tomorrow night.

Temp in the funnel this time will be a nice 84F, not the 76 I wound up with last time.

[FB]

Good luck

[rkelman]

After 2 days I wouldn't be feeding the same BBS I'd hatch new ones. They get too big and as fb suggested your fry get perforated stomachs. Also not too many. They will eat themselves to death with BBS it seems. You are doing great just make small adjustments and try again.

[Ziggy953]

This is great information. I'm headed off to read up on the links you all have provided.

My pair of O. Clowns have spawned. This is the first time I've seen the eggs but I'm pretty sure they have done it in the past. They have laid on a branching frogspawn in my frag system. I have a lot to learn and get before I even attempt to raise the fry. I can clearly make out the eyes in the eggs so I guess they are soon to be hatching.

I'll have to tag along with this thread and do some learning!!

[FB]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13908027#post13908027 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Ziggy953
This is great information. I'm headed off to read up on the links you all have provided.

My pair of O. Clowns have spawned. This is the first time I've seen the eggs but I'm pretty sure they have done it in the past. They have laid on a branching frogspawn in my frag system. I have a lot to learn and get before I even attempt to raise the fry. I can clearly make out the eyes in the eggs so I guess they are soon to be hatching.

I'll have to tag along with this thread and do some learning!!

Even if you don't have the food to feed them it's best to get all the steps down before your first attempt with food. i.e. if you can't get them to hatch the food is useless. Just my suggestion.

Good Luck

FB

[Ziggy953]

That is true.

I have step 1 covered. A mated pair of clowns. Past that I have nothing. I have to get a culture of phyto going again. I haven't used it in about a year. My reef hasn't needed it. I've never dealt with rots and have to get info on that.

I've decided to leave this nest alone and get some research under my belt and go from there. I was just looking at the eggs some of them I can see silver looking eyes and some of them are black. From what I have read the silver is an indication of near hatching. I'm guessing they will hatch tonight and be consumed before I get to see anything.

[jbrinker]

I removed 90% of the nest monday night using the straw and tube method. I did not damage any eggs, but lost a few into the tank when my son lifted the collection bucket too high (breaking the siphon).

These were tumbling in the funnel, which is suspended in a 5 gallon tank filled with water heated to 86F. This gets me a temp of 82F in the funnel with the air on. (Room is in basement, cold - 65F).

The eggs tumbled Monday, no hatch. I freshened the water Tuesday after work with fresh tank water, and resumed tumbling. I killed the lights a little early - 9:30pm. I went down at 11 and checked (flashlight) and none had hatched, so I went to bed. I got up at 1am and checked, and again, none had hatched. Went back to bed.

At 6:30am, I went down to do morning maintenance, and decided Id better check an egg under the microscope to be sure they are still alive. To my astonishment, when I killed the air, I saw fry swimming about. So I quickly siphoned them into a container, and moved them to the already waiting fish-bowl-kreisel (clean 82F tank water and a rock already in and stable).

After realizing that I had siphoned up a bunch of unhatched eggs I sorted things out by re-siphoning the eggs back into the funnel.

Looks like I had about 50% hatch. The remainder seem viable - I checked a bunch and they still have heartbeats.

I wonder why they hatched split like this? Interesting note - the eggs still in the main tank did NOT hatch yet.

Other data: Main tank temp is 77F, funnel is 82F. I wonder if the increase in temp caused some to hatch early, while the rest will go tonight?

Or, were they hatching (or thinking about it) when I checked at 11pm, or 1am, and the light messed them up?

Thoughts?

[FB]

Great Job

The warmer water will speed up the process. I'm not really sure what cause the hatch to be split. My guess is some are stronger and more developed than others and are able to push their way out of the egg earlier.

Good luck with them

FB

[jbrinker]

Here's an update for anyone following along... And of course I'm always looking for input!

I had about 50% hatch on tuesday night and the remainder did hatch on Wednesday night. The next part is the bad part...

Of the first 50%, probably 100 or so, I had about 50% mortality at 24h post hatch. By the time the second half hatched, another 25%, then some of the second hatch did not make it either.

Net result, by Thursday morning I was down to about 20 larvae. By last night perhaps 15 or so, and no more deaths this am.

Essentially I have the same problem each time - great nest, great hatch (99+%), and very poor first day survival.

The larva tank was at the same temp at hatch, 82F. Same water in fact, same pH, zero ammonia. Lots of rots, enough green to satisfy the rots. Lighting low, coming from above. Medium-low circulation.

The only things I can think of are:

- Hatch seems to be coming later that I expect. Brood tank is still only at 75-76F. Perhaps they are delayed, and therefore worn-out by the time they hatch?

- Lighting or circulation are not correct. I did notice one thing last night, due to the light being somewhat diffuse and from an angle, many larvae were gathering on one spot on the bowl, pushing out. I increased circulation, and shielded that side of the bowl with cardboard, now they seem to swim about more. I don't think this is the big problem, but a contributing factor perhaps.

For grow out, Im looking at a "sump liner" from home depot. About 18" diameter, black plastic bucket. I finally got my otohime, and plan to start them on that rather than BBS this time. (I have brine for backup)

[FB]

First day deaths are most likely physical damage They should be able to live for at least 48hours with no food. Or you might look at parent nutrition.

FB

[jbrinker]

Just thought I'd give an update:

No more deaths since day 2/3. There are 10 survivors that have now just about finished meta. They all have little white head bands, and several are "hosting" the heater. All are eating otohime A now, and I imagine still snacking on rots. (There is still a large population living in the fishbowl since I added so many to start with).

I still proceed with daily 10% water changes, and medium circulation. I'm feeding the rots daily about 1/2c nano, but Im slowly reducing the rot population by water change - trying to get them 100% on otohime.

I intended to also feed BBS but had no luck getting two separate batches to hatch (perhaps I decapped them to aggressively?)

As far as day 1/2 survival, I'm going to have to deny physical damage as a cause - the eggs hatch over 99%, and the transfer method I use (siphon) has to be about the least possible damage. They are all very active for the first day or two, but large batches die. I think perhaps the parent nutrition thing may be a better guess - I have only been feeding "natural" foods 2-3 times a week. Mostly pellets. I think more variety, and perhaps more fatty acids and protein is in order.

The parents laid another clutch Saturday (my GOD they are busy little beavers). That's 12 days between clutches. I think I may let this batch go, and concentrate on the 10 little critters I have going now, especially since we will probably not be home Saturday night. If they do not hatch in the tank Sat night, I may siphon some for a Sunday night attempt.

I have also increased the temp in the display tank to 81F, thats as high as I can safely go. Hopefully this will shorten the egg development to 8 days instead of 9.

Next big task is to move the post-meta 10 to better accommodations. I think I will wait another week, and then move them to a 5 gallon tank with sponge filter. At that point they should be off of rotifer 100% and look more like little clowns.

[J-Burns]

Hi, I am no expert however I just read Jojce Wilkerson's clown fish book. She said that the larva tank should be covered on the sides to keep out light as it confuses the larva. You are way ahead of me so please don't take me as a know it all. Just trying to help. Congrats on your spawns. :)

[rkelman]

I used to cover my sides. Not to discount Wilkerson but I have found it does absolutely nothing. (with my fry) What does work (for me) is keeping the water nice and green. Other than that I don't think the sides are important. If they are dying on day 1 or 2 I agree its either physical damage or initial egg / larvae quality likely caused by brood stock diet. I'm not sure a siphon is that easy on them though. It is a vacuum after all. That being said I have batches at times that just die like crazy on the first day or 2 and I use the tile method. Sometimes its just not meant to be I think.

[jbrinker]

Update: The remaining 10 from the first batch to fully survive meta are doing well. All are growing, they are on otohime A 100% now, with 50% water changes every 2-3 days and smaller changes in between. I have moved them (still in the bowl, there are only 10..) to a new location with a normal FL light. They seem to be doing very well, and are forming some sort of social hierarchy. Its fun to watch.

The last batch of eggs (the one I was not really expecting so soon) was about to hatch yesterday, so I relented and pulled about 75% of the nest via the tube method. I had 100% hatch last night about 11pm (lights out at 9:30). At about 11:30 I transfered them to the bowl, and I already noticed the quality of the larvae did not seem as good. Many (probably 50) were on the bottom and not swimming well or at all. (this is before transfer)

I transfered them all anyway, probably 250 or more, into the already prepared bowl. (It had been ready with rots and GW at 82F for a day already). This am (6 hours later) all but about 10 are dead. I siphoned them out, and observed them. Some are "circle swimming" others just lie on the bottom on their sides and dont move. I disposed of the dead, and hope the remaining 10 or so that are swimming normally will survive.

Interesting side note, between the last nest and this one, she had probably eaten almost nothing but pellets. Survival to day 1 is going to be about 5% tops.

I guess I need to relent and make some of my "own" food. The store bought stuff is too big (she loves it but spits half out because the pieces are too big), and pellets just arent good enough for a breeding female.

On the plus side, I'm getting good at all of this now, its almost second nature.

Jeff

[rkelman]

So you are moving them from whatever container you siphoned them into to another bowl later that has GW and rots right? If so I wouldn't be moving them into different water so soon. Even if it does come from the main tank. Things change quickly in water. Especially with no filtration and with the addition of Rots / Phyto. I would siphon them to the bowl using the water from the hatch vessel and add the phyto and rinsed rots to them. They are very fragile at that stage. It may help your survival rates. I'm glad things are becoming easier for you :)

[jbrinker]

Currently I have tried a couple different methods of transfer from the hatching vessel (funnel).

- I have siphoned them directly to the fishbowl, then added (dripwise over about an hour) clean tank water. Then dripped in greenwater/rinsed rots.

- I have siphoned them to an intermediate vessel (tupperware) and examined them, removing any dead ones and the egg cases via suction, then transfered them to the bowl (containing tank water, same temp, same sg, etc), then dripped in rots/GW.

- This last time I siphoned to intermediate container, removed dead and dying, and transfered to 1-day-old tank water/rots/gw.

All yielded about the same results for me - 90% fatality by end of day 2.

Next time I will probably go back to method #1, or possibly simply "pour" the whole funnel into the fishbowl (about half filled with tank water).

I really think its nutrition. I will be getting some frozen "mixed seafood" at the asian grocery today, and some Tobiko or other fish roe.

Jeff

[rkelman]

I agree. I feed mine that mixed seafood medley stuff. I blend it with a couple sheets of Nori and some water. Make sure its all uncooked though. Sometimes the mussels are cooked.