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View Full Version : One more fish--between Griffis Angel & Tinkers Butterfly which one will you pick?


flameangel88
11/28/2008, 08:54 PM
If you were to add only one which one would you pick for your tank? I would like to hear your thoughts on it? Assuming your tank parameters can meet the deeper water fish requirement.

danorth
11/28/2008, 10:50 PM
Tinker. They are much prettier with the Alice Cooper eye makeup!!!


http://glassbox-design.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/4in-declevis.jpg


http://www.poster.net/cooper-alice/cooper-alice-photo-alice-cooper-6226514.jpg

flameangel88
11/28/2008, 10:57 PM
A Declivis is nice as well.
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i287/reeftankpix/Declivis/IMG_4507.jpg

danorth
11/28/2008, 11:03 PM
The one you posted doesn't look too hot....patchy red spots on head and all...

agreeive?fish
11/29/2008, 11:11 AM
personally i would choose None of the above.. i dont really care for eithier one of them.

myerst2
11/29/2008, 11:11 AM
IMO, a Tinker's is a far better choice. Probably less expensive, much hardier, better looking, etc. The only reason I would go with a Griffis is if you love rare angels. T

GT3000XX
11/29/2008, 12:41 PM
That is a Declevis in the photo. I would choose the Tinkeri.

Snapper66
11/29/2008, 04:03 PM
Tinker

kirkaz
11/29/2008, 08:12 PM
Not my favorite semi-rare Angel, but an Angel none the less and gets my vote.

ccampbell57
11/29/2008, 08:15 PM
Do I need to say anything? I think Kirk has it correct!!

jnc914
11/29/2008, 11:17 PM
I have seen an established Griffis in action. 1) They are a very nice looking fish in person, albeit its color seems drab as it gets bigger. They turn from a vibrant white and black to greyish and black. This may also be caused by the lighting the fish was under, MHs in this specific situation. 2)They get very territorial and aggressive to any other Angel or similar looking fish.

Based on my thread regarding the Tinker's pair I have, I am very partial to them over the Griffis. Mine have awesome personalities and feed right from my hand. They are very active and I constantly get compliments on them when I have guests to the house.

flameangel88
11/30/2008, 03:19 PM
Thank you all for the replies. Being a angel lover my first choice is the Griffis Angel and it's actually cheaper. After given more thoughts I opted to go with the Tinkers because I already have a 5" Bandit and want the Bandit to be happy. I will just have to wait till next year when I go upgrade.

Now I'll have to deal with how the Declivis and Burgess going to take the new Tinkers.

Thank you again for all the valuable insights.

flameangel88
11/30/2008, 04:44 PM
I meant to say that I'll just have to wait till next year to get the Griffis Angel when I upgrade but will be getting the Tinkers this week.

flameangel88
12/02/2008, 05:25 PM
Here's the Tinkers from LA DD and it came in this morning
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i287/reeftankpix/12-2-08/IMG_4709.jpg

just before it went in the tank
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i287/reeftankpix/12-2-08/IMG_4655.jpg

AquaKnight
12/02/2008, 09:23 PM
Great looking Tinkers flame!

Just curious as to why the Mitratus wasn't considered? Hands down my pick of those deepwater butterflies.

flameangel88
12/03/2008, 08:20 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13863533#post13863533 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by AquaKnight407
Great looking Tinkers flame!

Just curious as to why the Mitratus wasn't considered? Hands down my pick of those deepwater butterflies.

Thanks. At the time of this thread only the Griffis and Tinkers was available. Mitratus is on my list but they are harder to come by and I don't see them often from a good source. I've my hands full for now and will be in the market for one by next summer.

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i287/reeftankpix/12-2-08/IMG_4675.jpg

jnc914
12/03/2008, 01:19 PM
Congrats, very healthy looking Tinker. How are the other Butterflies getting along with it. The Tinker looks like it is the bigger of the Butterflies you are currently keeping.

flameangel88
12/03/2008, 05:09 PM
Thanks. Everyone takes in the Tinkers well except the Burgess which is the smallest of all the butterflies. The Burgess chased the Declivis when it was first introduced and is doing the same with the Tinkers. The Declivis fought back in the begining but has given up and just swims away.

I don't know what's in these little fish that wants to start trouble with the bigger fish and the same is true with my 2.5" GSM Clown that chases the 4.25-4.5" Blueface to a point the BF goes into hiding.

flameangel88
12/11/2008, 08:13 AM
The Tinkerii is doing well
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i287/reeftankpix/Tinkerii/IMG_4944.jpg

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i287/reeftankpix/Tinkerii/IMG_4947.jpg


The Griffis was still available and I caved in and got it in on Tuesday. It's 4" tip-to-tip and skinny. The stomach is sunk in and the fins are beat up but has been eating since day one.

Tuesday 12/9
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i287/reeftankpix/IMG_4879.jpg

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i287/reeftankpix/IMG_4877.jpg

last night
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i287/reeftankpix/Griffis%20Angel/IMG_4921.jpg

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i287/reeftankpix/Griffis%20Angel/IMG_4902.jpg

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i287/reeftankpix/Griffis%20Angel/IMG_4902.jpg

rachenbrazil
12/11/2008, 11:22 AM
hope you can recover griffis asap... the pink spot on belly is not good looking now...

flameangel88
12/11/2008, 11:52 AM
Thanks and I hope to be able to very much. I've been monitoring very closely on every feeding to see what it likes to eat. So far, it's not eating PE Mysis, it does eat Angel & Butterfly Diet, Emerald Entree and NL Spectrum.

AquaKnight
12/11/2008, 12:21 PM
Very nice purchase and congrats Flame.

How would you say the Griffis looks in person vs online? Like in the way a Bandit doesn't look particularly impressive online, but has a real understated beauty in person.

flameangel88
12/11/2008, 12:57 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13921814#post13921814 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by AquaKnight407
Very nice purchase and congrats Flame.

How would you say the Griffis looks in person vs online? Like in the way a Bandit doesn't look particularly impressive online, but has a real understated beauty in person.

Thanks. I don't find any difference between pictures and in person. This fish has gone through a lot and is very stressed so it may be unfair for me to judge. The first thought that came to my mind when I'd a chance to take a good look was that the fish looked very 'old' and this could have been the result of stress. The colors are dull and that's really the bottom line. The reason I got this fish is that I want to establish an Hawaiian tank.

LargeAngels
12/11/2008, 01:09 PM
flameange88: Did you treat/check for flukes on the griffis? The edges of the fins look like fish I've gotten in with flukes.

flameangel88
12/11/2008, 01:38 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13922095#post13922095 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by LargeAngels
flameange88: Did you treat/check for flukes on the griffis? The edges of the fins look like fish I've gotten in with flukes.

LA: Thanks for the reply. That was my thought as well, I'm pretty certain it had at one point. It doesn't exhibit any sign of it but I'm concern with internal parasite. It looked so weak and I didn't want to stress it any more than I need to so I only admin prazipro during the 1.5hr acclimation. I'll go home tonight and decide whether I should treat internal parasite as an precaution.

jnc914
12/11/2008, 02:36 PM
I would hold off on medicating for now. Get it eating consistently and get it a little fatter. I think any med would stress the Griffis to death. Believe me, I am guilty of this in the past. I am hoping you got a good deal on the Griffis. I was offered a 4"Griffis from my HI supplier for $220. I guess alot of the wholesalers/suppliers that house the X-mas Island and Australian specimens are trying to clean out their current stock. I passsed on the Griffis and got a very healthy yellow 4" Goldflake and a Male Scribbled Angel 6-7" for just around $400. They are eating flake. I felt comfortable to dose with Prazi 4 days after their arrival and all is well.

flameangel88
12/11/2008, 02:56 PM
Thanks for the info/advice. Stress was the main reason I held back. I got it at a good price but not quite as good as your (if shipping is hi from HI to the east coast then we might end up about the same). I'm going to check with you next time I'm looking for those expensive fish. As for angel goes I only have one left on my achievable wish list--3-4" Conspic. Let me know if you come across one with a good source.

My lfs got in 2 med Personifer and 2 6"+ female Scribbled with only one that looks decent. Most of the angels coming in this year are in terrible shape.

jnc914
12/11/2008, 07:01 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13922764#post13922764 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by flameangel88
Thanks for the info/advice. Stress was the main reason I held back. I got it at a good price but not quite as good as your (if shipping is hi from HI to the east coast then we might end up about the same). I'm going to check with you next time I'm looking for those expensive fish. As for angel goes I only have one left on my achievable wish list--3-4" Conspic. Let me know if you come across one with a good source.

My lfs got in 2 med Personifer and 2 6"+ female Scribbled with only one that looks decent. Most of the angels coming in this year are in terrible shape.

I agree, alot of the large Angels are coming in looking pretty beat up. However, if you are lucky enough to cut out the middleman and any additional holding time on these fish, and get it either direct from a wholesaler or a supplier that deals directly with the collectors/divers, then you have a better chance of cutting down on stress, parasites, pathogens, etc. The bad part is that there is no guarantee, but that is the trade off with getting a fish at a fraction of the price.

AquaKnight
12/11/2008, 08:07 PM
How does one go about getting into that 'click' (fish straight from the collector/divers) jnc? And by no guarantee, do you literally mean none at all, or nothing past a DOA? Or would a DOA be handled by the shipping company?

jnc914
12/11/2008, 10:55 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13924830#post13924830 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by AquaKnight407
How does one go about getting into that 'click' (fish straight from the collector/divers) jnc? And by no guarantee, do you literally mean none at all, or nothing past a DOA? Or would a DOA be handled by the shipping company?

I lucked out. One of my main suppliers is a gentleman that lives within 30-40 minutes from where I reside. He runs an LFS out of his home on a part time basis, but is able to get fish for me directly from the divers/fisherman/wholesalers/suppliers. He is pretty well connected as he has been doing this for years. He was able to deal directly with the fisherman that net caught Bluelines in Vietnam back in March. He also has an excellent connect in HI that supplies all his Hawaiian, Australian, and X-mas Island fish. He got four boxes of fish on Saturday, 50 fish in all and only had one DOA. I saw the fish as they were being acclimated and all looked very healthy. I got the two fish I ordered still in the bag and drove home and acclimated without additional stress to the fish. Like I said, he is local for me. I can't vouche for his ability to ship the fish, but he is great if your local.

Another source is Les at Wetpetshawaii. He collects and sells fish and if he doesn't have what you want, he can find it with one of the other divers or collectors on the other islands. HE is based in Oahu. The fish come right from the ocean direct to your house. He got me my Tinker's pair.

I also deal with Serdar from Phishybusiness, he can usually get his hands on some hard to get fish. I wish he would update the site. I usually just PM him with what I want.

As per guarantee; most if not all guarantee against DOAs, but after that you are on your own. If you have an adequate QT system, medication, some experience, and patience; its not difficult to get really nice for very good prices. :D

rachenbrazil
12/12/2008, 05:57 AM
Is griffis fine ? any update ?

flameangel88
12/12/2008, 03:55 PM
Griffis is pretty much the same...it was eating well this morning and swimming more across the other end of the tank. No appearance change and probably will take 2 weeks before the body fills out a bit. It took my Bandit about 5 weeks to fill out. I'll take some pictures when I get home Sunday.

ccampbell57
12/13/2008, 10:53 AM
Flame - love the fish choice. I was considering a Griffis as well, but went with a pair of goldflakes (which I am waiting on)...

I would suggest feeding him some of the spectrum Thera A+ pellets as it is medicated for worms and other internal parasites.

It worked wonders on my bandit who fattened up within a 2 week period and is now rivaling on being the fattest fish in the tank :)

flameangel88
12/13/2008, 12:16 PM
Chris,
Thanks for the advice. I've been feeding with a mix of NL Thera A and another feeding of mixed Spectrum, ON One & Two along with mix of frozen twice a day. But I didn't know Thera A had enogh potency to treat worms and internal parasites as I was using more on the preventive use.
I can't wait to see pictures when you get your GF pair.

ccampbell57
12/13/2008, 09:33 PM
I will also add that I dosed Prazi Pro as well...the pellets have been a life saver though. They definitely have kept the fish very healthy

The GF should be here just prior to christmas...I cant wait to get the GF isn the tank with the Clarion and see the color contrast to the other angels...

flameangel88
12/16/2008, 08:37 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13921461#post13921461 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by rachenbrazil
hope you can recover griffis asap... the pink spot on belly is not good looking now...

Seems you were on to something here. I was away on the weekend and before I left Friday morning the spot was still pink and when I came home Sunday at midnight the pink spot turned slight brown but it was swimming and eating as usual. Only 4 hours of sleep so I didn't get a good look till late last night when I saw the bigger light brown area on the other side. Looks like infection coming from the inside as the area is slightly swollen but scales are kind of peeling (still intact but half way out).

Not sure if its internal parasite causing this but it is active in swimming and eating so it should be strong enough to handle Prazipro. I dosed Prazipro half the recommended dosage last night and the other half this morning.

Is this the 'brown spot' Bob Fenner was speaking of on the bandit article? Does this seem to be caused by internal parasite? I'll snap a picture tonight to get a better look.

ccampbell57
12/16/2008, 11:29 AM
Flame - this sounds very similar to what my first Goldflake had.

One side was discolored one day and the next it got bigger and started on the other side.

I treated with Prazi and another anti bacterial med and within 48 hours the fish was dead.

I would treat very slowly as the fish may be hanging on currently.

flameangel88
12/16/2008, 11:46 AM
Chris,
Thanks. My intent at the moment is to perform a WC on day six and dose half the amount of Prazi and another half the following day. Off course that's if the Griffis is still alive by then. I'll monitor closely and then determine the whether if I need to spread out the dosage further.
The fish came in very weak and after eating for a week it looks much stronger but change in the stomach area was drastic.

flameangel88
12/16/2008, 08:00 PM
I'm afraid the infected area on the Griffis looks worst than last night. It's still swimming and eating as normal but the scales came off on one side.

Here's the best picture I can get

the better looking side
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i287/reeftankpix/Griffis%20Angel/IMG_5183.jpg

it's slightly swallen but scales are off where it was partially intacted last night
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i287/reeftankpix/Griffis%20Angel/IMG_5184.jpg

At this point I think I will wait out 6 days of the Prazipro then decide if antibiotic is the next option.

jnc914
12/16/2008, 08:17 PM
Maybe it is just the pics you posted, but the fish doesn't look as bad as described. The injury doesn't look bacterial either. It may be parasitic. Maybe the fish was scraping or flicking against rock or the tank itself because of the parasites. Is the fish being harassed at all? Could be an injury from another fish. You mentioned the fish is active and eating, at least that is a good sign.

flameangel88
12/16/2008, 09:02 PM
It's the pic...I'm still working on my camera skill as well as fish skill. :)

Let's try again
the better side
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i287/reeftankpix/Griffis%20Angel/IMG_5204.jpg

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i287/reeftankpix/Griffis%20Angel/IMG_5205.jpg

the other side
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i287/reeftankpix/Griffis%20Angel/IMG_5206.jpg

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i287/reeftankpix/Griffis%20Angel/IMG_5208.jpg

head looks clean
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i287/reeftankpix/Griffis%20Angel/IMG_5210.jpg

Griffis is very calm and not harassed or scraping. It started as pink area when I got in last Tuesday.

scchase
12/16/2008, 09:47 PM
I have had good luck with similar looking abrasions dosing Epson salt for what its worth. i dont know if it even works but every time Ive tried it the fish has pulled through.

LargeAngels
12/17/2008, 06:36 AM
I've seen something like this once or twice. Unfortunately it didn't turn out well. Best guess is some type of infection (not sure if primary or secondary) either case I'd do antibiotics.

flameangel88
12/17/2008, 08:53 AM
I guess the best would be to administer broad spectrum antibiotics. Which would be better--Maracyn II or General Cure?

I'm open to suggestions.

TIA!

LargeAngels
12/17/2008, 08:56 AM
I've never used General cure. Only Maracyn II and it's active ingredient.

myerst2
12/17/2008, 01:00 PM
Try asking John, Copps for a suggestion on treating our fish. Good Luck!!! T

flameangel88
12/17/2008, 06:12 PM
Looks worst now with trace of blood seem to be coming through. I need help to determine if this is parasite or bacterial infection. Very difficult to get a good picture but hope these 3 will do.

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i287/reeftankpix/Griffis%20Angel/IMG_5231.jpg

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i287/reeftankpix/Griffis%20Angel/IMG_5232.jpg

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i287/reeftankpix/Griffis%20Angel/IMG_5233.jpg

flameangel88
12/17/2008, 06:27 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13963258#post13963258 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by myerst2
Try asking John, Copps for a suggestion on treating our fish. Good Luck!!! T

I'd like to but knowing he has a lot on his plate and didn't want to bug him. Thanks Tim.

ccampbell57
12/17/2008, 07:32 PM
Flame - that is definitely bacterial.

I would say Maracyn II is going to be your best bet. I would get the Griffis out of the DT and into QT and treat it ASAP.

It looks pretty bad. But if he is eating and looking normal he should be able to pull through.

jnc914
12/17/2008, 07:33 PM
The pics you posted are better. I had the identical infection on a Declevis Butterfly. The scales/skin degraded very quickly, and I started to see scales slough off and then the bleeding started. I started to treat with Marycyn 2 in the 40 gallon breeder QT, but it only lasted three additional days and passed. Good luck, it definitely looks like the same bacterial infection my Butterfly had.

flameangel88
12/17/2008, 07:50 PM
Thanks for the quick replies and info. Just when I need Maracyn I realize I don't have any left but I've 2 bottles of Stop Parasites. :( Hope the Griffis can hold out another day till I can get some at the lfs tomorrow.

I can't believe how quick the change came about. I wonder if Prazi accelarated this progression?

LisaD
12/17/2008, 09:17 PM
I'm sorry about your angel. Several years ago, I had a juv Koran show some of the same symptoms, and I lost it. Never did find out for sure what it had.

From doing some reading, back then, I though my fish may have had a Vibrio infection, but I'm definitely not a disease expert. Your fish shows similar symptoms.

I don't know if you'll find either of these links helpful. I have some less common antibiotics such as kanamycin and doxycycline. PM if you need me to send you some:

http://www.aces.edu/dept/fisheries/education/ras/publications/Update/Vibrio%20infections%20in%20fish.pdf

http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Vibrio_Aeromonas.html

rachenbrazil
12/17/2008, 09:55 PM
if griffis is eating... don't treat it... not now ... fish is too thin to use antibiotics at all ...
In one of local distribuitor in here , one griffis have same condition ( looks like decompression puntucture infection ) ...
If your fish is feeding... try to get it fatter for a week (at least) ... them use maracy II to treat him... Antibiotics are very agressive to fish ... hard to recover instestinal fauna...so will need fat to survive treatment and after treatment fauna recover (at least another week if QT receive some live rock after full wt and cleaning)
now it is time for gambling... few will recover....some will last for weeks so can be treated sucessfully ... some will not get fat enough to resist treatment... so let's test your patience and luck ...

Hope we can enjoy your fish for years....

LisaD
12/17/2008, 10:14 PM
it can be a tough call when to treat. I've seen fish go downhill very fast when they look like that one. it is a good point about antibiotics often being harsh. the treatment can also supress appetite, which isn't good in a thin fish.

I don't know if the mix would be effective agaiinst what this fish has, but I often treat with a mix of sulfa and neomycin. it is a good broad spectrum antibiotic treatment, and doesn't seem to suppress appetite like some others.

BTW, maracyn II *is* an antibiotic, containing minocycline - you seem to be saying it is different. I believe regular maracyn contains erythromycin.

jnc914
12/17/2008, 11:04 PM
Sounds like a catch 22.......You run the risk of the fish dying from an antibiotic treatment, but then again the fish could die from the current infection it has. Very tough call. Personally I would fish it out of the tank and treat with Maracyn 2 in a hospital tank. I think there will be more damage done and a higher risk of death if you take the wait and see approach. Not all antibiotics suppress appetite. Maracyn 2 is one of the less harsh antibiotic treatments on the market.

flameangel88
12/18/2008, 07:58 AM
Thank you for all the advices everyone has given me. The infected area didn't look any worst this morning but the Griffis can smell food and dash toward it but didn't take any bites. Normally it would pick NL pellets off the water column and sandbed but didn't even look at it this morning.

I normally would have medicated right away but this time I held back because the fish looked so week when it came in and I hesitated. I've spoken and emailed to technicians at aquarium supply houses and they suggested to take the slow approach or more mild med such as Melafix given how weak the fish is. I'll take the Griffis out after I get the med after work.

Thanks again.

Lisa--thanks for the kind offer but I think time will be tight this time.

flameangel88
12/19/2008, 12:03 AM
The whole process took 3 hours to remove over 200lbs of rocks to get this guy out and get everyone to settle down. Since I got the rocks out I also siphon the bottom and done a WC. It's in a established tank that's been running for 3 years now and I opted to go with Melafix. I'll give it couple of days with a mild treatment to lessen the stress and see if there's any improvement before going more aggressive if needed.

I think both of us had enough stress for one night...lights out and we both need a good night of rest.

psilentchild
12/19/2008, 06:13 AM
How is the tinker butterfly doing? I was thinking about one.

flameangel88
12/19/2008, 07:20 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13975273#post13975273 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by psilentchild
How is the tinker butterfly doing? I was thinking about one.

Tinker is doing well and the Burgess is not bother it anymore. The Tinker gets along with all the other fish including the Semilarvitus and Declevis. See if you can find one under 4" mine is 4.5" excluding the tail.

flameangel88
12/19/2008, 07:28 AM
I check on the Griffis this morning it's still breathing a bit heavy may be the result of moving stress from last night. It was behind a large piece of rock but I think it took a bite or two of mysis.

The temp on this tank was set at 76 and I'll slowly bring it down to 72-73 as in the DT. Does anyone think I should keep it a bit higher while I'm treating Melafix (or Maracyn Two if I need to go more aggressive later)?

LisaD
12/19/2008, 08:14 AM
With bacterial infections, my experience has been that higher temperatures accelerate and worsen the infection/problems. I think much more is to be gained by lowering temperature.

With parasites, sometimes increasing temperature can accelerate the life cycle to get the vulnerable stage of the parasite in the water column. This is a valid approach, but not one I prefer to take unless the problem is a parasite, and I know that I have the appropriate medication on hand to treat.

psilentchild
12/19/2008, 08:16 AM
Why under 4 inchs?

flameangel88
12/19/2008, 08:28 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13975819#post13975819 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by psilentchild
Why under 4 inchs?

I see better looking ones when they're under 4" especially the yellow are more smoother. Maybe someone else can chime in on this.

flameangel88
12/19/2008, 08:32 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13975804#post13975804 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by LisaD
With bacterial infections, my experience has been that higher temperatures accelerate and worsen the infection/problems. I think much more is to be gained by lowering temperature.

With parasites, sometimes increasing temperature can accelerate the life cycle to get the vulnerable stage of the parasite in the water column. This is a valid approach, but not one I prefer to take unless the problem is a parasite, and I know that I have the appropriate medication on hand to treat.

Thanks Lisa. I turn it down by 1 this morning and it should be 73 by Sunday.

flameangel88
12/19/2008, 10:19 PM
The Griffis doesn't look good at all as the infected area is rotting on both sides and tissues are coming off. I' going to put this angel down.

The turn for the worst came quickly and catching it didn't help with the added stress. Looking back the only way it had a chance was that I treated right away when it came in with the pink spots. I'll take full responsibility for the delay of treatment. Another lesson learned here is never buy again from vendor that doesn't have a good reputation.

I wasn't going to post these gruesome pictures here but hopefully someone else that has been following this thread will pick up something from my indecisive treatment of pink spots to fatal infection.

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i287/reeftankpix/Griffis%20Angel/IMG_5383.jpg

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i287/reeftankpix/Griffis%20Angel/IMG_5384.jpg

ccampbell57
12/19/2008, 10:37 PM
Flame - agree that looks really bad. I would not do anything aggressive right now as the fish probably will not take it easily. I would seriously do some melafix and watch him, but I would say your survival rate is less than good.

Sorry man...

LisaD
12/20/2008, 05:56 AM
That's exactly how my Koran looked right before it died, I'm really sorry. That kind of systemic bacterial infection is very hard to treat in delicate fish.

flameangel88
12/20/2008, 03:26 PM
I didn't want the Griffis to suffer anymore and was going to put it down but it died before I got to it.

Lias--did you ever find the cause? I'm wondering if it would have made a difference if I treated 10 days ago when it was the pink spots.

LisaD
12/20/2008, 09:24 PM
I didn't, but was going to send it to a pathologist friend (Labdoc on seahorse.org). He donated many hours of his time doing necropsies on seahorses - we were researching cause of death, developing medication regimes - actually self-published a pretty nice diseases in seahorses book. Doc offered to do a necropsy on the angelfish, but I never sent it off.

From looking at several fish disease books, I suspect Vibrio, which can be tough to treat. Without a necropsy, it is really impossible to know, though. I've seen those same symptoms in bluefin lionfish too, also a cooler water species, and they invariably broke down and died very quickly, even when they started out looking very good. It was heartbreaking with theis uncommon lion species, because no matter what anyone that got them did, treated or not, they still got massive bacterial infections and died.

I learned from my seahorse experience that some diseases need to be diagnosed and treated aggressively, or the animal will die. Other conditions can be fought off by a fish with a healthy immune system, given good food and water. It's a really hard call. I think you did all you could and made the best decisions you could at the the time.

jnc914
12/21/2008, 12:12 AM
FlameAngel-- Sorry for the loss, unfortunately it seemed like the fish was doomed from the beginning. You did what you could for it. That is identical to what my Declivis Butterfly had on the top of its head. The skin basically rotted away until it was raw and bleeding. It got pretty gruesome toward the end, and then it passed 12 or so days later. Was it an online dealer? My Declivis came from a former sponsor here on RC. I had a couple of bad experiences and have stayed away from them since. (Won't mention any names).

billsreef
12/21/2008, 07:11 AM
I've seen similar infections in newly imported fish on a few occasions. Based on location of the infection and how it typically seems to start from the inside and work it's way out, it's my opinion that it's a result of needle decompression when they are collected. As a result, by the time we see obvious signs of infection, it's already well under way and very systemic. Unfortunately it's also been my experience that such infections don't respond well to any treatments. Likely there has already been too much internal damage by the time we notice the infection :(

flameangel88
12/21/2008, 07:41 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13986916#post13986916 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jnc914
FlameAngel-- Sorry for the loss, unfortunately it seemed like the fish was doomed from the beginning. You did what you could for it. That is identical to what my Declivis Butterfly had on the top of its head. The skin basically rotted away until it was raw and bleeding. It got pretty gruesome toward the end, and then it passed 12 or so days later. Was it an online dealer? My Declivis came from a former sponsor here on RC. I had a couple of bad experiences and have stayed away from them since. (Won't mention any names).

Jason,
It was from the same vendor (former RC sponsor) and I got a Bandit from them about 7-8 months died similar but wasn't as gruesome as the Griffis. Yes, will stay away for sure.
Someone mentioned about copper may be the only solution for this disease and there may be a point in keeping the disease under control but I'm not sure if it's a cure. The vendor had this Griffis for atleast 2 weeks (as seen for sale on website) and they generally run copper. Both times (along wit the bandit) right after I get the fish in similar infection and fish dies in 12 days or so. It's difficult to tell fish had problem other than seeing the pink spot (bandit had one very smallmore toward the mid-section) and both were eating well.
Kevin

flameangel88
12/21/2008, 07:49 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13987528#post13987528 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by billsreef
I've seen similar infections in newly imported fish on a few occasions. Based on location of the infection and how it typically seems to start from the inside and work it's way out, it's my opinion that it's a result of needle decompression when they are collected. As a result, by the time we see obvious signs of infection, it's already well under way and very systemic. Unfortunately it's also been my experience that such infections don't respond well to any treatments. Likely there has already been too much internal damage by the time we notice the infection :(

Bill,
In your opinion, do you think it'd a chance when the pink spots just starting to appear? In this case I may agree that it was too late. But looking back and seeing the Bandit with a very small and light pink spot I wonder if I recognized it then would it be treatable?
Jay (JHemdal) on a thrd I posted in the 'Fish Desease Treatment' forum said it may be Uronema, a protozoan infection.
Kevin

billsreef
12/21/2008, 08:13 AM
Based on your first photos showing a dark spot in that region, I don't think Uronema would be the primary cause, though it could certainly be present as a secondary infection. It's not unusual for advanced infections such as you've seen in the later stages to have multiple infectious organisms taking advantage of the situation. IME with such infections, by the time it's evident to the human eye, it's already too late :( Goes back to the point of collection. Something about using a needle to puncture through the gut, the peritoneum and swim bladder, just makes for a ripe situation for infection. It's amazing we don't see this type of infection more often than we do.

flameangel88
12/21/2008, 08:54 AM
Bill
Thanks for the reply/info.
Kevin

ccampbell57
12/21/2008, 11:56 AM
I agree with Bill on this one flame. When I originally saw the spot I thought right away it was a miss needle to decompress the fish.

A lot of collectors needle through the side of the fish and if you know what you are doing, can be relatively safe. But even the most experienced divers misfire every once in a while.

When I went diving in HI and watched the collection process, the people I was with needled through the anus of the fish and were very careful about any puntures. To date, all the fish that I have gotten from this collector has been clear of bladder punctures or other internal issues.

Themoneysdirty
12/22/2008, 03:33 AM
Angel.

rachenbrazil
12/23/2008, 07:18 AM
Sorry for your loss....
Hope that one day you can find one healthy griffis for you...

flameangel88
12/23/2008, 07:25 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14000746#post14000746 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by rachenbrazil
Sorry for your loss....
Hope that one day you can find one healthy griffis for you...

rachenbrazil--Thank you! On your early remark of the pink spot it seemed you've seen this before--have you comed across any that were able to be saved?

rachenbrazil
12/24/2008, 05:38 AM
Honestly ...saw several fishes... not griffis sure...but some other collected fishes, specially from indonesia... Very few were saved... Few years ago I did work with some importers in here and for all fishes with signs of pucture of bacterial infection we started treatment with nitrofurazone. These treatment tanks have lot of circulation and aeration as major factor when treating with antibiotics is that O2 level drop significantly... and any small amonia spike or excessive fish content would lead to loss in these tanks... after 48~72 hours , can separate cases of fishes with improvement against not improving fishes (severe cases would be dead by now) .

Improved fishes got more room , and continue nitrofurazone until complete at least 10 days of treatment . Then if signs are better and feeding well , these will be moved to Clean QT tank
If signs still severe , will follow new 10 day cycle of treament ( most of these would die before end of cycle 2, or will keep in bad shape or with permanent damage, carrying infection (like a griffis now in imported with black belly , now completing 5 months but finally with signs of dying as almost no feeding and should be euthanized before new year if keeps suffering , side swiming, no feeding and very thin body) .

For thoses fishes after 48~72 hours and no improvement at all, I change use cephalexin (sorry if my spelling is wrong) higher human grade antibiotics for 7 days. For this group... very few survive, but if can stand the 7 days treatment... should be fine ...

All these years (over 12 years of records).... for fishes of group 1 with pucture signs (from pink spot to severe holes in body, but alive enought to be treated) treated 1256 fishes , only 349 fishes recovered and were sold after average time of treatment and recovery body mass of 2.7 months.

For the group 2 , treated 748 fishes... only 148 fishes were recovered... average time , 3.4 months


Could I have better numbers ? Could I saved more fishes ? Unfortunally due space and time , cannot treat all fishes with problems, expensive fishes only are treated ...

Fishes with better treatment records

Angelfishes ... 1330 treated - 312 recovered
Clownfishes ... 38 treated - 12 recovered (only Blue stripe species have been treated for this ... most clownfishes do have brokynella as first disease so must recover from this before any other treatment...and few clowns are expensive enough for such treatment)

Poor records...

Wrasses 793 fishes... only 45 recovers....

So recovering a fish is not that easy at all...unfortunally , so that's why we need to call for better capture and handle from collectors and shippers... as after damage done...hard to escape from hell... and as trully nature lovers...hard to deal with this... that's one of reasons of myself leaving this side of hobby... now just keep my tanks and eventually helping importers to solve their issues... but no more personal envolvement as not easy to handle one fish death... no matter how cheap, how "ugly" it is...

But these numbers are part of my personal records track... hope someone can have some insight with these data ...


So reliable sources and visual inspection should be a must for all ... specially for prize specimens... then QT for finest enjoying moments in DT...

flameangel88
12/24/2008, 07:18 AM
rachenbrazil,

Thank you for the valuable information and sharing your experience, especially your method of treatment. Most of the fish coming in this year has one problem or another and goten to a point where it's stressful. This year I felt like we need to became biologist or vets to save the fish that are coming into our care and so disheartening to see sick fish with so little we can do to save them.

Oce again, thank you so much for your time and help.

Kevin

psilentchild
01/22/2009, 04:56 PM
Just wondering how is the tinker butterfly is doing.How big has he gotten?

flameangel88
01/22/2009, 05:16 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14218133#post14218133 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by psilentchild
Just wondering how is the tinker butterfly is doing.How big has he gotten?

It's doing well and I don't think it has grown much.

On Jan 10th
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i287/reeftankpix/Tinkerii/IMG_5875.jpg

Jan 18th
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i287/reeftankpix/Tinkerii/IMG_5901.jpg

It's a gentle giant with the other smaller angels and butterflies.

LisaD
01/22/2009, 05:18 PM
very pretty fish!

flameangel88
01/22/2009, 09:34 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14218266#post14218266 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by LisaD
very pretty fish!

Thanks Lisa.

HOBrien
01/22/2009, 09:48 PM
Hey can you PM me the name of that vendor so I can stay clear of them as I love angels as you know.

flameangel88
01/23/2009, 05:01 AM
The Tinkers is from LA DD and the Griffis is from NY Aq.

danielp
01/23/2009, 12:58 PM
@flameangel88 great fish, I always check out your pictures with pleasure. You have really nice collection of fish.

flameangel88
01/23/2009, 01:18 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14224464#post14224464 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by danielp
@flameangel88 great fish, I always check out your pictures with pleasure. You have really nice collection of fish.

Thank you so much for the kind words and motivation to do better each time. :lol:

HOBrien
01/24/2009, 01:30 PM
ok so stay away from NY aq.....gotcha will do

danielp
01/26/2009, 01:02 PM
@flameangel88 do you still have bellus angel? And how do you like it?

flameangel88
01/26/2009, 01:27 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14246388#post14246388 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by danielp
@flameangel88 do you still have bellus angel? And how do you like it?

Yes, I still have 2 (a lg and sm) females. I lost the male after 3 months which came in with a slight swimming problem and never ate during that time. Since then the 2 two stay in their own area. Honestly, I like the color of the female more than the male. I'm you will enjoy them as much as I do and they don't bother anyone else in the tank. I've 2 Watanabes females and one started to change to male late last November but the transformation is still not complete yet. Take a look at the thread titled : For the love of Genicanthus.