Need help with this algae problem! (Several pics)

[Kissfan79]

Hey guys...
I have battled this hair algae problem off and on and it has reared back up with a vengance. I am assuming that is your basic hair algae (any macro algae in there?). About the setup:

-180 gallon reef ready tank w/75 gallon sump
-ASM G3 skimmer
-Lights consist of an Outer Orbit w 3x150 10k MH bulbs and 4x96 PC actinic supplimentation
-Corals include Fiji yellow leather, various mushrooms and Zoos, button polyps, a birdsnest, pruple grape monti, some sort of orange cap (I assume that is what that is in the center of the whole tank photo), neon orange plate.
-Fish include a blue tang, yellow tang, lawnmower blenny, a few clowns, a royal gramma, striped blenny, and a blue chromis.
-Has been setup since 5/10/08
-Water parameters are as follows:
PH-8.1
Alk-usually about 8Dkh. I use Coralife salt and it is notorious for low alk
Calcium about 380 (I know...it is low)
Magnesium ~1300
Ammonia 0
Nitrates 0
Nitrites 0
Phosphates 0 (I have never gotten a reading other than 0 using and API test kit)
-I use a Kent Marine RO/DI system to make my own water and my TDS tests at 0
-I feed the fish once per day using Formula 2 flake and frozen brine or mysis shrimp
-I'll admit I have been lax on the water changes
-Sump has filter floss and a poly filter with Phosgen and carbon running
Cleanup crew consists of some big guy turbos (had a ton but several have died off....need more), some nassarius snails, a few trochus snails, about 5 jumbo cerith snails, about 10-15 dwarf red hermits, about 6 scarlet hermits.
-For flow...I have 4 Koralia 4's along with a MJ1200 modded with the upgraded flow kit and a MAg 12 return pump

Here are some pics starting with a full tank shot:

http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m52/kissfan79/100_7525.jpg
http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m52/kissfan79/100_7523.jpg
http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m52/kissfan79/100_7522.jpg
http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m52/kissfan79/100_7521.jpg
http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m52/kissfan79/100_7520.jpg
http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m52/kissfan79/100_7519.jpg
http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m52/kissfan79/100_7518.jpg
http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m52/kissfan79/100_7517.jpg
Any thoughts or help on how to get rid of this hair alage without pulling every piece of rock out and scrubbing it clean (although there are a few pieces I am going to pull and scrub) and keeping it away? Any other cleanup crew I could add to eat the algae? Any thoughts or opinions are greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance and my appreciation for the long read/photos.

Jim

[Slakker]

Looks like your phosphates are a bit high. Maybe get a phosban reactor?

[Kissfan79]

Can the phoshates be high and still read 0 on an API test kit? Anything else besides overfeeding cause phospahtes to be high?

Thanks for the reply.

Jim

[JEFFR259]

Kiss-

Certainly agravating, I know!

Your API test could potentially be bad. If you have algae, you have nutrients (phosphates) to let it grow. I notice a increase in algae growth in my tank when my phosphate creeps as high as 0.2-0.3. With my Phosban reactor, it hangs at 0.1, which pretty much eliminates any algae growth other than the film on the glass.

How old are your light bulbs??? Older bulbs facilitate algae growth.

Even though your TDS testing at 0, how old are the membranes?

[JEFFR259]

Like Slakker also said, consider maybe putting a Phosban Reactor in. You can do this whole setup for around $100

Reactor (I use Two Little Fishes brand)
GFO ( I use Phosban )
MaxiJet 400


Thats it!

Also, just thinking away here, consider taking your water to your LFS to check against your kit for consistency

[Phillybean]

Keep in mind that your testing the water column for Phosphates, if the GHA (Green hair algae) is consuming the phosphates, it will read 0.

I think the G3 is under-sized for your tank. A skimmer upgrade would be ideal, but for cost, meshwheel, recirc and gate valve mods will help.

A proper phosphate reactor would help.

How dirty is the filter floss in your sump? It may be a Nitrate Factory which could contribute to the GHA.

How many lbs of rock do you have? Maybe not have enough biological filtration.

As mentioned, how old are your bulbs?

Do you have a fuge?

[Kissfan79]

The setup was purchased from our LFS and it was all new in May.....so about 6 months (assuming the bulbs in the fixture were new...I don't think they would sell us a used fixture or a new fixture with old bulbs in it as I have been going there for a long time but when they installed it...they just brought the fixture in. I never saw the box on it). The rock in it should come to around 150 pounds give or take. I never actually got to weigh it as it went in the tank. It was rock from the 75 which became the sump plus some added (the 75 had WAY too much rock in it). To give you an idea....the big rock in the center with the Fiji leather attached to it was 26 pounds by itself. BTW can anyone positively ID the orange cap on the center rock? Any critters I can put in there to help consume the algae.....or add Chaeto to the sump? What size phosban reactor would work well for a 180. Isn't the Two Little Fishes model too small for a tank this size? I am off to a LFP to have them test the water. If the phosphates are indeed the cause....what can cause high phosphates other than over feeding (I assume once per day is OK and not too much)? Thanks again for all of the info and help. Also....I try and keep the floss changed regularly so it doesn't get too filthy.

Jim

[stanlalee]

API phophate kit is useless even if its accurate. its resolution itself is useless. 0.0 with the next reading 0.25ppm helps no one. you need to read to 0.00. because 0.07 is still considered high while 0.02 is considered acceptable. 0.25 is off the charts so any reading on the API means real bad phophates. you can still have low phosphates because your hair algae utilizes it keeping your readings low (just like the use of macro algae).

I would say you should
a) manually remove as much as possible (those powerheads and easy to access rocks need to come out and scraped/rinsed in a bucket of tank water during a water change when possible without harming the corals. a good blade scaper for that around the overflow box

b)do a large water change and then get on the ball with those

c) get a phosphate reactor and GFO (granular ferric oxide). at the very least utilize GFO

d) get a bigger skimmer. the G3 is a nice size skimmer for a 75g (despite the rating).

e) if you see it coming back act with water and GFO changes including increasing volumes of water and GFO if neccessary BEFORE it gets that bad.

BTW tank looks just fine from a distance, it would be golden without the hair algae. the TLF phospate reactor will be fine. It holds up to 150g. you probably want to start out with half that.

[Kissfan79]

Thanks for the reply. LOL....how do I tell my dad that the skimmer he paid ~$300 for is undersized. Right now....a new skimmer is out of the question. With this size setup....would it be better to run the G3 wet or on the dry side? I pulled several of the pieces out and scrubbed them in a bucket of fresh salt water but there is still lots in there on the underside of rocks I didn't pull out. The powerheads are clean now as well as the removeable pieces of the overflows. Until I get a phosphate reactor set up....would running GFO in a filter bag help out?

Thanks, Jim

[stanlalee]

GFO will work in a media bag. thats how I run it in between sump dividers (along with carbon to fill in some space so water goes thru it and not around it). You can mesh mod the impeller to get the most out of the skimmer. that cost about $5. As for wet or dry I prefer a happy medium. I dont want mud but I dont want pea water either. I bring the water level up to the bottom of the collection cup and let it do what it do as far as building a foam head.

[BLAKEJOHN]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13840655#post13840655 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by stanlalee
API phophate kit is useless even if its accurate. its resolution itself is useless. 0.0 with the next reading 0.25ppm helps no one. you need to read to 0.00. because 0.07 is still considered high while 0.02 is considered acceptable. 0.25 is off the charts so any reading on the API means real bad phophates. you can still have low phosphates because your hair algae utilizes it keeping your readings low (just like the use of macro algae).

I would say you should
a) manually remove as much as possible (those powerheads and easy to access rocks need to come out and scraped/rinsed in a bucket of tank water during a water change when possible without harming the corals. a good blade scaper for that around the overflow box

b)do a large water change and then get on the ball with those

c) get a phosphate reactor and GFO (granular ferric oxide). at the very least utilize GFO

d) get a bigger skimmer. the G3 is a nice size skimmer for a 75g (despite the rating).

e) if you see it coming back act with water and GFO changes including increasing volumes of water and GFO if neccessary BEFORE it gets that bad.

BTW tank looks just fine from a distance, it would be golden without the hair algae. the TLF phospate reactor will be fine. It holds up to 150g. you probably want to start out with half that.
I agree with all of that. I would include rinsing all food with RO a couple of times before adding it to the tank. If you cant upgrade the skimmer, water changes will need to be increased.

Just for kicks put your food in a container of sorts fill with fresh RO and let thaw. When thawed stir it up and then test a sample of this water for PO4 and see what you find.

[Phillybean]

The key here is to eliminate the cause of the problem, not to cover it up with something to eat it.

[Kissfan79]

Well....after what BLAKEJOHN and one of the guys at a lfs said....I did exactly that. I took some of my frozen mysis shrimp and put it in a small plastic container and added enough RO/DI water to cover it and thaw. After thawing it, I strained the shrimp out and saved the water in a fresh container. I tested the thaw water and OH MY GAWD!. Using the API test kit....you start off with an off white color and you wait a few minutes and see if the color changes shades of blue. Well....before I could even finish adding drop number 6 of the solution 2 and shaking.....the test water was turning blue. After shaking....it instantly turned a WAY dark....deep navy blue...almost black. I guess I just found the source of my phosphates. Thanks for the info and thoughts. I guess I will start rinsing my frozen food thoroughly from now on. The guy at my lfs also said to try a couple of sally lightfoot crabs to consume the hair algae. I bought two.....we'll see how they do on it.

Jim

[L98-Z]

Is it only store bought frozen foods, or do homemade foods that are frozen also have this problem?

[Percula9]

I would perform 10% water changes once a week. Do you have a refugium?

[gkimble]

You have the worst algae known to the aqurium hobby- bryopsis....I have a little to. The only way that I know how to get rid of it besides chuncking your rocks is to raise your magnesium to 1500-1700 using Tech M magnesium made by kent. It is very frustrating, I know, trust me. Get a phosban reactor and a fuge to slow down reproduction. Raise your mag up each day until you reach 1500-1700 then keep that level there until all your bryopsis is gone.
I just started this process today.
Here is a link that I read to start this process.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1113109&perpage=20&pagenumber=1
Good luck

[Vapour1ze]

^, honestly, I've never heard of that. The algae will subside if you get a reactor, and do a water change, something is causing it.

For hair algae, in all honesty its Process of Elimination,

Get a list of the causes like you have above, and just start doing each one, it takes time, Its not like poof gone, Once you get everything running and stablized its just going to STOP growing your still going to have to get it off somehow, get a foxface or some snails... get it small enough for them to eat, some pieces in there look fairly large.

Toothbrush's work wonders :D

[BLAKEJOHN]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13856705#post13856705 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by tehauthority
^, honestly, I've never heard of that.
Yes it is true. Rasing the mag will kill of Bryopis. But only the Kent Tech M works to do this. Its been tried with other brands with no effects on it. And the elevated mag has yet to show any ill effects.

But back to the topic on hand. Yes even fresh store bought raw foods may contain an inorganic orthophosphate.
Rinse your foods the best you can.
Do weekly water changes of at least 10%
get some GFO. Some of the phosphates may have seeped into the rock and sand. They will leach back out over time

[njdevilsfan]

well it doesnt look like bryopis to me but me vision is poor i think its just gha
i would reccomend a good filter sock if this tank has a sump was to lazy to read that
if it does turn off all your flow and manually pull all you can then do a large water change and what you dont catch the filter sock will
i have also found mexican turbos to get after this stuff pretty well
you could always get a sea hare but you will need to find someone to take from you once he eats all of yours
keep us posted and good luck

[klepto]

my recent thinking is that heavy bryopsis: phosphate loaded live rock. After trying to battle the results of a friends poor husbandry the best option for me has sadly been to ditch the rock (which was acting as a phosphate sink and not the biological filtration needed) over a gradual period and replace w/ clean l/r. Sounds drastic but if you want results, it works..

Emerald Mithrax crabs have worked better than any other inverts for me keeping the crap from spreading. And a lawnmower blenny or foxface will work relentlessly to take care of the younger growth.

good luck!

[troyman]

looks like bryposis to me had it took forever to get rid of it raised mag levels also use algaerid from api it worked but takes awhile be patient

[Patrick12]

Scrape and suck as much of it off as you can. Ditch the filter floss. Try feeding some frozen whole foods.....mysis are great source....and ditch the flake foods. They contain monophosphates as part of the preservative/processing and you are adding a phosphate source directly to your tank. Granted, al foods you feed will contain some phosphate, but flakes are about the worst. A ROWAphos media chamber that is fluidized will be your best bet. ROWAphos costs more upfront, but it last longer and will save you $ in the longrun. See if you can discover a more exact age of the bulbs. As they burn out (not to your eyes though) they emit a more red wavelength and fuel algal growth....more so....all photosynthetic light will promote algae growth though when you get right down to it. Lastly, your cleanup crew for a tank that large is about a 10th of what it really should be. Not that addign these thigs now will cure it. That is a common misnomer. The crew will aid in preventing the return once you get it out of there.

Good luck

[Patrick12]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13857398#post13857398 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by troyman
looks like bryposis to me had it took forever to get rid of it raised mag levels also use algaerid from api it worked but takes awhile be patient

Bryopsis is more coarse than what is in the picks and tends to grow higher up. What is in the pics is def not bryopsis. Luckily many tangs will eat both of these algaes.....at least mine and a few friends tangs have done so for us.

[Santoki]

Most if not all of us have or will run into this issue once during years of doing seemingly ok...
I know how frustrating it is as it almost caused me to quit before I figured out several key factors and to separate observation from "try this" try that" when attempting to tackle this issue.
Nutrient buildup happens from "slow" to "extremely slowly"(especially when there is a sandbed involved. By the time your tanks looks like what is pictured, you are most likely looking for drastic ways to turn things around.
There are several main components in a typical reef tank which dictate how nutrients are exported (or not). Making sure that every single component is operating at its peak is the only way to prevent buildup.
1. sandbed
The efficiency of your sandbed needs to be questioned. Fully functioning sandbeds can be a very efficient way of breaking down wastes but some often overlooked factors can cause a sandbed to degrade. Organisms which keep the sandbed slowly turned sometimes die off and goes unnoticed. This eventually results in a sandbed that holds nutrients instead of processes them. Disturbing the sandbed can cause mini cycles while the bacterial population attempts to stabilize in that area. Since there is currently no way to measure sandbed efficiency, the only way to say whether it is fully functioning would be make an educated guess based on how healthy the tank looks. Without making a which is better statement, I would say this is one area which can use some scrutiny. One last thing to remember is that even fully functioning sandbeds do not process po3.
2. skimmer
This is perhaps the single most important item in nutrient export since it attempts to remove wastes before it can be broken down. IME, your skimmer is undersized if its output is at 100% on a consistent basis. Either import less nutrients or get a larger, better skimmer. My skimmer currently goes through a daily output cycle where skimmate production tapers off around the once daily feeding time. It produces less when there is not much to take out (the foam head becomes noticeably whiter).
3. flow and rockwork
often overlooked are crevices which flow cannot get to. The common assumption is that uneaten food or poop will be broken down by the sandbed or the cleanup crew. That may be. However, lack of efficiency in this area adds unnecessary load on the tank's nutrient export system.
4. po3 media
This is probably the most effective off-the-self item to deal with the po3 issue. It is however very costly when used on an ongoing basis. Nutrient sinks also speed up the rate at which po3 media needs to be renewed, adding additional expense. Certain types last longer than others especially when there is an efficient waste removal system in place. Read up on carbon dosing also as an alternative.
5. PH/ALK
IME, PH/ALK seems to drop faster on systems which retain large amounts of waste. This could be a result of the various organisms metabolizing the waste. A prolonged low PH and ALK environment seems to favor "nuisance" algae growth (this could be directly or indirectly related I don't have any proof of this).
6. adding organisms to consume the nuisance algae
This method should be avoided as it does nothing to address the nutrient issue. As they are consumed, the nutrients are cycled back out in their waste, which in turn fuels more growth. When you finally get a handle on your nutrient issue, some of these organisms run out of food and starve. You may also find that you are not able to add the fish you want because the fish you got to eat the nuisance algae doesn't like your new addition.

I know how frustrating this can be and wanted to offer you my experiences dealing with this issue. Hopefully you can avoid doing something only to see it grow back the next day. Your hair algae problem is not as bad as some here on RC if that is any consolation.
One last thing,
any nutrient reduction method you commit to will require time. If you can fix your nutrient issues, you will find that the nuisance algae will slowly disappear on its own.

[Santoki]

I have to apologize for my incorrect phosphate abbreviation. Phosphate molecule has 4 oxygen molecule hence po4 not po3.
Been ranting lately about nitrate (No3) and phosphate, got the abbreviations mixed.

[Kissfan79]

Wow.....once again...thanks for the info. I'll try the magnesium increase....Kent Marine Tech D happens to be the magnesium I use. I am going to order some GFO from Bulkreefsupply.com and get that running. I will definately start rinsing my frozen food after see the stratospheric phosphate levels in the water I rinsed it with. At one point about 2 months ago...I added a ton of snails and cleaned the powerheads. The tank was looking really good and the snails were definately keeping it clean. A lot of the snails have died off (do they usually dies so quickly....the big turbos anyways). It was just recently that I had the explosion of hair algae (I'll post some more/better pics....especially after doing some cleaning).....not sure if it was due to the snail die off or the switch in frozen food (I used to use Hikari frozen brine shrimp but switched to a different brand of mysis shrimp that is sort of bulk packed versus the brine that was frozen in cubes). It does seem that the algae explosion started around the time I switched foods. I have posted questions on this before but since this thread has some better exposure...for a tank this size....how many of the following would you have:
Large mexican turbos
Trochus
Nassarius
Dwarf red legged hermits
Emerald crabs
As stated before....a new skimmer is not really an option right now so I'll have to tweak this G3. If I were to get a new skimmer....what size ASM, Euroreef, or Octopus would ya'll think would be sufficient? As far as the lights go....assuming the fixture and bulbs were indeed new from the lfs (which they should have been....I don't think they would have done me wrong like that) the bulbs (stock Current 10k) are about 6 months old. I will probably change them to Phoenix 14k's after the first of the year.
I'll also get some Chaeto for the sump. For Chaeto....doesn't the light cycle for it begin opposite of the display tank cycle? In other words....when the DT lights are on....the fuge lights are off and when the DT lights are off the fuge lights are on?

Thanks again,

Jim

[Kissfan79]

Also....I forgot to ask....Klepto.....when you say phosphate loaded rock.....are you referring to rock that for whatever reason has phosphates in it's structure or rock that has absorbed phospahtes throught the water? In either case....wouldn't it dissipate once the issue of the excess phosphates is resoloved?

Jim

[Kissfan79]

LOL..I post a comment about this post getting more traffic than the one I posted a month or two ago and the traffic stops! :p

Jim

[J.R.L.]

one word:

PHOSPHATE

you arent going to get an accurate reading with anything but a hanna phos that uses light to measure

get a phosphate reactor and begin manually pulling out as much as possible

[reeflover812]

heres my two cents. I had worst hair algae then you about 2 months ago. Patience is the key, get a phosphate reactor and start siphoning out the algae or pulling it out everytime you do a water change. Thats what i did and after 1 month, (it was slow process) and the algae was gone.