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Randy Holmes-Farley
11/30/2008, 12:04 PM
I've been using Iwaki pumps on my system for more than 13 years. In fact, the same exact pumps. I like them just fine, but I
am thinking about power waste these days.

They dump their heat to the room, while I use 8 or more different heaters in the system during winter

So the question is why not use one or more a powerful submersible pumps instead, during the winter, when I want the heat in the water?

So, what do people believe are the most powerful and reliable submersible pumps?

Eheim 1262?
Quiet One 9000? 14000?
Mag Drive 1800?
Maxi Jet 5500?
Ocean Runner 6500?
Others?

TIA

markandkristen
11/30/2008, 12:19 PM
i love eheims but as far as heat i would say the mag would give more heat

sjm817
11/30/2008, 12:21 PM
Wow....RHF asking Vs answering a question!

Randy, it depends on how much flow you want/need. I have had the same thoughts. My sump is in the basement and in the Winter, my heaters run a lot to keep the tank @ 78. My pump is external and air cooled. It seems I am "wasting" a lot of heat from the pump.

You can use submersibles since they are water cooled and will transfer the heat to the water. I prefer Ehiems for their extremely reliable, quiet operation, but the 900 GPH 1262 is as big as they come.

Another option is a water cooled external. The Poseidon/Velocity series pumps are external and are water cooled. They are dead silent have have a very good reputation.

pjf
11/30/2008, 12:35 PM
Steven Pro posted his “Submersible Pump Comparisons” on Web Web Media (http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ca/volume_3/cav3i1/Powerhead_test/powerhead_comp.htm) but his objective was efficiency to avoid heating the aquarium.

A flaw in his analysis is that his calculations were based on zero head. The rankings change at 4 feet of head. Using manufacturers figures, the Ocean Runner pumps appear to be very efficient at 4 feet of head:

<table border>
<caption>Pump Efficiency </caption>
<tr><th>Pump<th>Placement<th>Max Head<th>[email protected]’ Head<th>Watts<th>[email protected]’/Watts</tr>
<tr><td>Eheim 1046<td>Submersible<td>4’<td>0<td>5<td>0</tr>
<tr><td>Eheim 1048<td>Submersible<td>5’<td>56<td>10<td>6</tr>
<tr><td>Eheim 1250<td>Submersible<td>6.5’<td>165<td>28<td>6</tr>
<tr><td>Eheim 1260<td>Submersible<td>12.1’<td>475<td>65<td>7</tr>
<tr><td>Eheim 1262<td>Submersible<td>11.8’<td>665<td>80<td>8</tr>
<tr><th>Iwaki MD-20RXT<th>External<th>8.2’<th>540<th>52<th>10</tr>
<tr><th>Iwaki MD-30RXT<th>External<th>13.5’<th>960<th>115<th>8</tr>
<tr><td>Ocean Runner 1200<td>Submersible<td>5.3’<td>70<td>25<td>3</tr>
<tr><td>Ocean Runner 2500<td>Submersible<td>8.6’<td>400<td>38<td>11</tr>
<tr><td>Ocean Runner 3500<td>Submersible<td>10.5’<td>750<td>65<td>12</tr>
<tr><th>Velocity T2<th>External<th>18’<th>650<th>98<th>7</tr>
<tr><th>Velocity T4<th>External<th>18’<th>1275<th>140<th>9</tr>
</table>
This table shows where I obtained manufacturer specifications from:
<table border>
<caption>Pump Information Sources </caption>
<tr><th>Pump<th>Information Source</tr>
<tr><td>Eheim<td>www.drsfostersmith.com</tr>
<tr><td>Iwaki<td>www.marinedepot.com</tr>
<tr><td>Ocean Runner<td>www.aqua-medic.com</tr>
<tr><td>Velocity<td>www.reefs.org</tr>
</table>

If you are not concerned with efficiency, then pressure-rated pumps will help heat the water. I believe that the Velocity pumps are water-cooled despite their external placement.

You may want to get other perspectives. I've only used Maxi-Jet, Eheim and Iwaki pumps.

frenchie
11/30/2008, 12:40 PM
i run a mag 1800 for return on my 125 in a 30 long sump utube style over flow 1200gph, house temperature 73 degrees and i have nova extreme pro t5's and still have to use 2 visatherm 250 watts to keep my tank at 80 degrees so i don't think mag pump creating to much heat been running for one year now with no issues.

frenchie
11/30/2008, 12:46 PM
before i put heaters in tank temp dropped to 75/76, t5's are new and don't keep water warm like my old metal halides did.

James77
11/30/2008, 12:53 PM
I use a Velocity/Poseidon T4 external to heat my water. Even in the summer, I have no problem with the tank being too hot. They are dead silent, reliable, and they help warm the water.

Randy Holmes-Farley
11/30/2008, 04:12 PM
Thanks everyone. :)

Right now I use 2 Iwaki 30RLXT pumps in series for returns to my tanks and an ozone reactor, and one Iwaki 55RLT for my skimmer. I'm not sure on the flow of each but the head is variable, with some parts pumping up from the basement to the first floor, so probably at least 12-15 feet of head on that run.

got2lb
11/30/2008, 04:31 PM
I switched out a mag 12 for an OR 3500 and my temp dropped 3 degrees. So if you want heat I'd go with the mag drives. I've heard really good things about he velocity pumps and if they're water cooled I would say that would be a very good route to go.

dew2loud1
11/30/2008, 04:47 PM
I use several of the velocity series pumps the t3 and the t4 and they are very good pumps and quieter than anything on the market imo. I also use an OR 6500 as a skimmer pump and haven't had any problems with it as well. I'm in the same boat as far as running more pumps in the winter to keep tank temps up.
I use a barracuda as a return and have contemplated hooking up a laguna 4200, the laguna line of pumps would be another alternative, although I'm not sure how they'll do at that head height.

BeanAnimal
11/30/2008, 04:56 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13845401#post13845401 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by markandkristen
i love eheims but as far as heat i would say the mag would give more heat

The heat the impart to the water is a direct result of how many Watts they draw. (2) different brands of 100W submersible pumps will impart the same heat into the water, even if one pump does move more water than the other.

BeanAnimal
11/30/2008, 05:00 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13846827#post13846827 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by got2lb
I switched out a mag 12 for an OR 3500 and my temp dropped 3 degrees. So if you want heat I'd go with the mag drives. I've heard really good things about he velocity pumps and if they're water cooled I would say that would be a very good route to go.

That is because the OR3500 is rated at around 65W and the Mag12 is closer 120W

BeanAnimal
11/30/2008, 05:01 PM
As other have mentioned, the Velocity pumps are water cooled and are dead silent. They may not heat the water as much as a submersible, but they are not far off. I used to use (2) of them on my system (replaced one with a Snapper for more flow) and love them.

Rwinfrey
12/01/2008, 04:50 AM
How about the new ATB flow pump super nice and it's red.:smokin:

Rwinfrey
12/01/2008, 04:52 AM
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1518872

Randy Holmes-Farley
12/02/2008, 06:27 AM
OK, thanks everyone. :).

I've got a follow up question.

In looking at the Ocean Runner 6500 (which I'd use 2 in series for my return, as I do now with two external Iwaki 30RLXT's), I see that Premium Aquatics has it a lot cheaper than anyone else ($117 vs $145-180) at other MO places, but PA says the fittings are metric while other places list them as 1"MPT and 1.25" MPT).

Is premium Aquatics selling a grey market product, or some such thing? Anyone get an OR from them?

BeanAnimal
12/02/2008, 06:51 AM
I think the labeling is suspect, they pumps (as far as I know) are metric. Running pumps in series does not give you the same efficiency as runnung a single larger pump. It sounds like you have quite a bit of head to push though and may not have a choice.

kdblove_99
12/02/2008, 09:50 AM
I have ran the OR 3500 for close to 3 yrs great pump. On the new system i will be using the Velocity T4. I set new system up for a leak test and let run for a week in garage. the pump is dead silent and very compact. its smaller than my OR3500. But if you want heat added to tank Mags are your best choice

kdblove_99
12/02/2008, 09:58 AM
Im almost positive they are Metric also. As far as PA goes I have had nothing but great experiences from them. Customer service is up there with the best of them

EvMiBo
12/02/2008, 11:22 AM
beananimal your PM box is full and I've been trying to PM you a few questions regarding one of your articles.

gcarroll
12/02/2008, 12:02 PM
I think it would be hard to find a better submersible pump than the Laguna Max-Flo 1500, 2000 or 2400 (depending how many gph you want). They are very reliable, quiet and energy efficient. Definitely one to look at.

Randy Holmes-Farley
12/02/2008, 01:16 PM
Thanks, I've not seen those before. Have you used one on a reef? I'm concerned that they are just marketed for ponds, and so might have issues with seawater or with exposed metal parts.

kdblove_99
12/02/2008, 01:19 PM
They are fine for saltwater. I believe Hahnmesiter did some kind of write up and testing on these pumps

gcarroll
12/02/2008, 03:44 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13860066#post13860066 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kdblove_99
They are fine for saltwater. I was told the same earlier this year by the guys at Hagen. I asked why they did not market this pump to SW aquarist. They said it was to big of a pump for our needs and they already had the Aquaclear line of pumps that were marketed to us.

Randy Holmes-Farley
12/02/2008, 04:41 PM
OK, I ordered two of the Laguna Max Flo 2900's. Got quite a good deal from That Pet Place (~$180 each), since they were on sale and I had a 20% off code that came in the mail. One for my skimmer and one for my return.

I'll let you folks know how it works out. :)

BeanAnimal
12/02/2008, 05:21 PM
Glad you were able to come to a decision, Randy. Will you be switching back and forth from winter to summer?

Randy Holmes-Farley
12/03/2008, 06:27 AM
Yes, I do plan to switch summer/winter. I also wanted something as a backup. I realized that the evening before Thanksgiving when one of my return pumps stopped, that i needed a handy backup plan.

Turns out all it needed was a bit of WD-40 in one of my 13 year old Iwaki 30RLXT's, but it could have been a lot worse.

Klaus Jansen
12/03/2008, 01:31 PM
Hi Randy,

you want a nice Toys for Christmas ? Please send me your Adress via PN or Mail. :)
regards...

gcarroll
12/03/2008, 02:53 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13867352#post13867352 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Klaus Jansen
you want a nice Toys for Christmas ? Randy,
Go ahead and return the Lagunas. You obviously won't be needing them any more! I'm expecting my new return pump for Christmas soon too.

sjm817
12/03/2008, 03:19 PM
@ Santa Klaus, please leave something under the tree for me too!

BeanAnimal
12/03/2008, 04:19 PM
Klaus... what about me? My poor 6' skimmer still needs a new pump. I hate the OR3500 that is on it!

Creetin
12/03/2008, 04:21 PM
Randy i would take Klaus up on that. You wont be dissapointed!

Randy Holmes-Farley
12/06/2008, 09:33 AM
Well, it looks like I might be testing out one of Klaus' new pumps. I'm looking forward to it. :)

BeanAnimal
12/06/2008, 09:40 AM
I am sure you will not like it. Instead of adding volume to a landfill, just go ahead and ship it this way. I will take care of it and Klaus never has to know. Just tell him the pump was wonderful!

hahnmeister
12/08/2008, 11:25 PM
The ONLY thing I am not sold about with those RD2's is that shaft seal. Sooner or later, it is a point of wear & friction, and this will give out. Then you end up with 300 volts DC shooting through the water...lol. I could accept just being told that once every 5 years I would have to crack open the volute and swap out the shaft seal, but never? I just dont see how that is possible. Anyways, beyond that, they look to be very well made motors. Based on the volute/impeller/motor specs, they seem more pressure biased... so for flow a Laguna based motor might still be better.

Klaus Jansen
12/09/2008, 05:21 AM
@Hahn..
You are not correctly informed : there are no rotary shaft seals. Its a submersible Direct Magnetic-Drive Pump.

regards.. Klaus

Randy Holmes-Farley
12/09/2008, 06:09 AM
OK, I've put both of the Laguna 2900's in service.

One replaced an Iwaki 55RLT serving a skimmer, and the other replaced two Iwaki 30RLXT pumps used in series as return pumps for 2 tanks and my ozone reactor.

In both cases, they may be adequate, but are clearly pushing less water through the devices. Since they save about $2 per day in the winter, they are likely adequate, but not perfect replacements for what I had. :)

mavgi
12/09/2008, 07:38 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13905576#post13905576 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Randy Holmes-Farley
OK, I've put both of the Laguna 2900's in service.

One replaced an Iwaki 55RLT serving a skimmer, and the other replaced two Iwaki 30RLXT pumps used in series as return pumps for 2 tanks and my ozone reactor.

In both cases, they may be adequate, but are clearly pushing less water through the devices. Since they save about $2 per day in the winter, they are likely adequate, but not perfect replacements for what I had. :)

Need to modify the volute .... here you can see the 2400 compare to the mag 1800 the first pump start it' the mag drive and then the laguna , the flow on the laguna was very strong and i was need to hold the pipe with the hand.... :

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f30/mavgi/Laguna%20VS%20Mag%20Drive/th_PIC_0003.jpg (http://s44.photobucket.com/albums/f30/mavgi/Laguna%20VS%20Mag%20Drive/?action=view&current=PIC_0003.flv)


here is the thread :

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=13831988#post13831988

Randy Holmes-Farley
12/09/2008, 11:36 AM
Thanks. I'm not in a position to judge whether what you did will effect the flow at high head pressures, but I appreciate the input. Unfortunately, I don't have the time to make my own pumps. :)

hahnmeister
12/09/2008, 04:00 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13905444#post13905444 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Klaus Jansen
@Hahn..
You are not correctly informed : there are no rotary shaft seals. Its a submersible Direct Magnetic-Drive Pump.

regards.. Klaus

Well then, that is the most interesting thing I have heard all day! So then I take it that there is water flowing around the magnet to keep it cool? I hope you can actually pull the magnet out for cleaning then...

Is that a ceramic magnet, or did you go all out with Samarium Cobalt.

hahnmeister
12/09/2008, 04:09 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13905576#post13905576 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Randy Holmes-Farley
OK, I've put both of the Laguna 2900's in service.

One replaced an Iwaki 55RLT serving a skimmer, and the other replaced two Iwaki 30RLXT pumps used in series as return pumps for 2 tanks and my ozone reactor.

In both cases, they may be adequate, but are clearly pushing less water through the devices. Since they save about $2 per day in the winter, they are likely adequate, but not perfect replacements for what I had. :)

I think your results are because the Lagunas are very flow biased... they benefit from larger piping, and pushing against head pressure will diminish their flow more than the very pressure biased, dual-magnet-drive Iwaki's. Hey, there is a feature I wonder why no other pump has used... the dual magnet design of the Iwaki... no shaft seals, but the magnet/stators are still allowed to interact much closer since water isnt between them... very much like a Vortech. Mag-drives suffer efficiency (and torque) losses from the 'water gap' between the magnet and poles used for cooling. An external/air cooled motor allows these parts to move much closer to each other... boosting efficiency... but then you have shaft seals... unless you use a magnetic coupling like an Iwaki. I just wonder why nobody else uses this method... seems Vortech likes it.

sjm817
12/09/2008, 07:40 PM
Hahn. Not sure I follow you. Many external air cooled pumps use magnetic couplings. The Gen-X Mak4 I have uses the same design as the Iwaki. The magnet design is a cylinder in a cylinder which is not at all like a Vortech coupling.

http://www.weatherson.com/photos/301_iwaki_impeller.jpg

uhuru
12/09/2008, 08:34 PM
Thinking of trying a laguna 1500 as a return for my 150g display and it will also feed my 75g fuge. It will have approx 50" diagonal climb and then maybe 6" horizontal, think it can handle it as is? Because I don't want to mess with modifying the volute and what not. I'd like to get at least 600gph through the display and max 75gph through the cryptic fuge. They're on sale w/free shipping until the 11th.

mavgi
12/09/2008, 09:20 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13911014#post13911014 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by uhuru
Thinking of trying a laguna 1500 as a return for my 150g display and it will also feed my 75g fuge. It will have approx 50" diagonal climb and then maybe 6" horizontal, think it can handle it as is? Because I don't want to mess with modifying the volute and what not. I'd like to get at least 600gph through the display and max 75gph through the cryptic fuge. They're on sale w/free shipping until the 11th.

what pump you use now and what is the return pipe 3/4" or 1" ?

hahnmeister
12/09/2008, 11:14 PM
sjm817, many mag-drive pumps (most) have the inductors (stators) in the motor, and the only moving part is the magnet/impeller. The EM field that the stators produce must travel across a gap of water in the impeller chamber (water cooled) and the plastic wall. So a mag-drive in this setup needs more electricity to make up for the greater distance between the poles and the magnet. This is why you tend not to see many large mag-drive pumps... they start to get really hot and lose even more efficiency as a result. Hagen says that the Laguna 4200 is the largest motor that they could even make as a mag-drive. The larger Danner 'Mag-Drive' 36 and 24 were discontinued because of these design issues.

Iwaki uses a 'dual magnet' design, as do just a few others (Gen-X and PanWorld, which are both based on the Iwakis really), and that is what I find odd because it is a really good design. The stator/rotor setup is allowed to be as close as possible to each other because a second set of magnets is used to transfer the motion to the actual impeller in the volute... just as you have shown. This means there are no shaft seals to wear out, like a ReefFlo/shaft driven pump, but the motor can be kept very efficient since the magnet and stators can be kept close to each other like an external air cooled motor... sort of 'the best of both worlds'. If done with a DC controller and a couple other modern tweaks, I have no doubt that such a design could result in a small, totally cool running silent motor that is very efficient and can be submerged. Thats not a common combo of traits.

This is actually ALOT like Vortechs... they have the DC motor on the outside making the magnetic coupling spin which is what moves the magnet in the tank. Those pumps would be much higher wattage if they had to use their induction poles to transfer the EM field across the glass to the magnet in the water.

The other alternative has been to look at alternative materials for the magnet with the mag-drive impellers... Samarium Cobalt (Sm2Co17) is one I have been looking into more and more these days. Its a rare earth magnet that is as powerful as the NeFeB ones (if sintered) but is resistant to corrosives and heat (so you can use it in these applications where usually 10x weaker ceramic magnet is used, even if its just a bonded SmCo magnet) . It is more expensive, but its much higher magnetic field means you can quite literally make a motor that is 1/2-1/4 the size of what it was before... making up its cost in other areas.

uhuru
12/10/2008, 05:24 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13911358#post13911358 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mavgi
what pump you use now and what is the return pipe 3/4" or 1" ?

mavgi, I don't have the tank running yet. I'm planning to get it running before the end of the year.

The return pipe can be 1" or 3/4". The tank actually has a 2" bulkhead for closed loop drain, but I will not be using a closed loop so I was planning on reducing it to 1" and using it for the return or I could go wider if you think that would work better.

mavgi
12/10/2008, 01:12 PM
The 1500 standard outlet can match to 1" pvc pipe (but you will need to put some tape on that...) so if you don't want to mod the pump and to get around the 600gph you will need to use 1" return pipe .

uhuru
12/11/2008, 05:01 AM
Thanks mavgi. Well Victor is going to be sending me a modified laguna pump. I know it has been said before, but Victor's customer service cannot be beat. He treats ALL of his customers special :)

MoReefer
12/11/2008, 08:47 PM
There seems to be a wealth of plumbing and pump information in this thread and I am in a similar situation to Randy's. I was looking at the Danner Pro-HY Drive Pump 2100 for getting water up to my display on the first floor from my sump/fuge in the basement. However, I would also be interested in what Klaus' or Victor's pumps are and if they are available?

On a side note... if nobody minds making a plumbing suggestion, I have 2-1" holes and a 3/4" hole to use for my open loop between the basement and ground floor. I have a 120g display and 125g fuge. I was thinking I would join the 1" & 3/4" lines to drain downstairs and pump back up thru the 1"...

Any input would be much appreciated

Thanks

victor90
12/30/2008, 11:20 PM
Randy,


Did your present from santa Klaus arrive?

Randy Holmes-Farley
01/03/2009, 01:32 PM
Not yet, no. Apparently there was some problem in customs that needed my phone number, and by the time I learned of it, UPS had sent them back. Then I was on vacation for a while, and Klaus said he resend it soon.

As to the Laguna 2900 pumps, WOW, what a bad move. Both have already failed, one while was on vacation, and the other one failed twice, and I cannot get it restarted. Definitely not a quality product. I am waiting to hear back from That Pet Place about returning them for a refund.

For now, I'm back to my trusty Iwaki's. :)

victor90
01/03/2009, 02:06 PM
Randy,
May I ask how they failed? They just won't restart?

BeanAnimal
01/03/2009, 02:08 PM
They have become popular, I would suspect quality control has gone out the window like many imported products.

I hate the OR3500 on my 6' skimmer and was almost convinced to try a laguna... now I am not so sure.

Randy Holmes-Farley
01/03/2009, 03:36 PM
They stopped while running. One I restarted by manually pushing the impeller around with a screwdriver. It ran for 2 more days before stopping again. That did not work with the other one. The impeller is able to turn but is very hard to turn and never runs on its own. I've not opened them to see what is wrong, but think that calcium carbonate deposits are unlikely, although possible. It usually takes more than 6-12 months for the Iwaki pumps to accumulate deposits on them.

TFP agreed to give me a refund. :)

hahnmeister
01/03/2009, 03:40 PM
That is just weird about the Lagunas... very weird... and both of them too, which suggests either a QC problem, or something about your tank...

mavgi
01/03/2009, 04:17 PM
I am sure that you run those pump with the original volute and this is what couse that.... those pump not pressure cant run on long piping and with the original volute they not perform well .

victor90
01/03/2009, 06:52 PM
Randy
Do you have a Kill a watt if yes can you run the pump connected to it. I think you might have a voltage drop

BeanAnimal
01/03/2009, 07:06 PM
I would think it would have to be very significant to prevent the pump from starting (maybe 90 Volts or so). If Randy was experiencing voltage that low (brown out conditions) then I would expect other equipment to also be affected.

Out of curiosity, have you tossed one on a Variac to see at what voltage it refuses to start at? What voltage does it refuse to rotate once started?

mavgi
01/03/2009, 07:29 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14072872#post14072872 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BeanAnimal
I would think it would have to be very significant to prevent the pump from starting (maybe 90 Volts or so). If Randy was experiencing voltage that low (brown out conditions) then I would expect other equipment to also be affected.

Out of curiosity, have you tossed one on a Variac to see at what voltage it refuses to start at? What voltage does it refuse to rotate once started?

IMO if those pump run External (not sure about that) without custom volute they will burn from over heat.

i run pump that rate 100 watt at 39 watt (with the original volute) for few month without problem when this pump run in the sump.... when i test this pump out of water the pump was IMO to hot .

Randy Holmes-Farley
01/05/2009, 09:12 AM
I tested my voltage with a 25 year old multimeter, and it read 130-135 V. I expect the voltage is lower than that in reality, but I don't suspect there is a low voltage problem. All my other electronic stuff, from computers to plasma and LCD TV's are fine. I do have a voltage transformer that I use to reduce the AC line voltage to some in-hood fans to run them slower and less noisily, but haven't used it on the pumps.