What is it with this hobby... and people being cheap?

[chrissreef]

Am I off base?...

People will easily pay $150 for Nike's, $500 on an iPhone and $1000 for soccer, football, golf membership dues but fish/corals with 3x markup is OMG EXPENSIVE!!

People tend to ignore the markup and barely complain about $4 Starbucks coffee, $3-4 beer/soda at a restaurant, $75 pair of jeans or a new $200 graphics card for their computer.

But a $30 yellow tang, $5 frozen fish food, $75 acan frag or a lighting system $300+ and you get OMG! THIS LFS IS TRYING TO RIP ME OFF!!


I don't get it. Sure the internet exists... but so do grocery stores that sell beer for $0.75 per bottle and stores like TJ Max which sell clothing bargains.

Maybe this hobby should cost more... it'd get rid of a lot of unnecessary people and boot out companies like Petsmart/Petco.

[Chihuahua6]

I don't get your rant. This hobby is expensive and if you can get something cheaper online than say a local fish store, then why not save the money?

I buy all of my stuff online or used from fellow reefers. I'm not opposed to paying more for healthy livestock from a LFS however. I just don't have a quality store nearby.

BTW I get my Nike's at the outlet store for $45, The most I'll spend on jeans is $45, I don't have a golf membership even though I live in a golf community etc. I can afford these things but choose to spend my money wisely and put the savings towards my kids' future.

[AquamanE]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13860909#post13860909 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Chihuahua6
I don't get your rant. This hobby is expensive and if you can get something cheaper online than say a local fish store, then why not save the money?

I buy all of my stuff online or used from fellow reefers. I'm not opposed to paying more for healthy livestock from a LFS however. I just don't have a quality store nearby.

BTW I get my Nike's at the outlet store for $45, The most I'll spend on jeans is $45, I don't have a golf membership even though I live in a golf community etc. I can afford these things but choose to spend my money wisely and put the savings towards my kids' future.

1+

This is already an expensive hobby. Whats wrong with saving a buck whenever you can? I agree with buying from LFS's whenever possible but throwing money away in these times of uncertainty is suicide.

[matt_in_ak]

I have been out of the hobby for a while Like sence 1998. One thing I have noticed is that back then a Red Sea Purple Tang cost @$250.00 and up, now they are much cheaper. I for one have to pay a lot for shipping sooo i look for the best deal I can get so I can get more livestock or tend what I have better..

[weluvfish54]

quit complaining about complaining. complainer.

[CoRPS]

The people complaining about the LFS ripping them off ARE NOT the same people buying designer clothes and accessories...

[Reefer08]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13860909#post13860909 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Chihuahua6
I don't get your rant. This hobby is expensive and if you can get something cheaper online than say a local fish store, then why not save the money?

I buy all of my stuff online or used from fellow reefers. I'm not opposed to paying more for healthy livestock from a LFS however. I just don't have a quality store nearby.

BTW I get my Nike's at the outlet store for $45, The most I'll spend on jeans is $45, I don't have a golf membership even though I live in a golf community etc. I can afford these things but choose to spend my money wisely and put the savings towards my kids' future.


Because if everyone here thought like you then LFS would not exist. LFS would slowly stop carrying equipment because people would rather buy online and save themselves money and consumers would rather buy corals from each other.

IMO, take the LFS out of the equation and this hobby will stop existing. All newbies originate from a visit to an LFS (usually for freshwater fish hehe). Supply and demand is based offa LFS importing from wholesalers. etc etc...

Bottom line, stop being cheap and just pay the money for healthy corals and fish from your lfs.

[Patroklos]

I support my LFS whenever possible, but considering he carries almost none of the hardware I needed I didn't get much through him.

I did throw him a bone and get my tank/stand ordered through him. I could have done that cheaper online.

[JEFFR259]

We're all different people and we have different "economic" strategies....that's pretty much the reason.

HOWEVER-----I support my LFS. Yea, I could buy a fish/coral online for a little less, but I'd rather look at the item in person (even when comparing to WYSIWYG online shopping) to see health, size, etc. I also prefer LFS because of normal shipping costs and more importantly the shipping timeframe-if I can prevent any stress and possible illness for an animal AND support my LFS and it's employees, I'm going to :)

[CoRPS]

Thus far I've gotten everything in my tank from LFS. I'm going to start buying hardware online but will always buy fish/coral locally.

[chrissreef]

Thanks for the replies. I totally understand people trying to save $...

my "rant" is that people complain that LFS's are "ripping them off" but then they go out and spend $40 on a meal for two, $9 to watch a movie or $75 football tickets all with equal or higher markup and don't complain.

That's what I don't get. Why are people so against small businesses trying to break even but don't say a word about their other purchases?

[deejeff442]

i buy my fish online that way i wont impulse buy at a lfs.
this way i can plan my stock.
i do buy my supplies there though.
thier supplies are almost the same price as online.
remember the lfs has overhead and not ot mention the fish that die before you see them in thier tanks they have to make that up also.

[LobsterOfJustice]

You think RCers are cheap? Try working at PetSmart for two years. People want fish to go in a bowl and I drag them away from the $.12 comets to the $3 bettas and they flip sh@*. People complain about paying $4 for a bag full of live plants that will fill their tank in 2 months time. And I'm over here paying $50-$150 for fish, and $10 and up for 1" frags that only grow a few inches a year at best.

[s ruppa]

supply and demand

there is greater demand for a movie tickets across the country. hence the $9 dollar price. i dont know many skimmer companies that grossed 10's of millions in sales this year

to the people that you say are complaining...a 40 dollar meal and 75 dollar football tickets are more vaulable to them.

[Mr. Brooks]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13861191#post13861191 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by chrissreef
Thanks for the replies. I totally understand people trying to save $...

my "rant" is that people complain that LFS's are "ripping them off" but then they go out and spend $40 on a meal for two, $9 to watch a movie or $75 football tickets all with equal or higher markup and don't complain.

That's what I don't get. Why are people so against small businesses trying to break even but don't say a word about their other purchases?

I think most people complain because their local fish stores sell them crappy equipment that doesn't work and livestock that they know is unhealthy or isn't compatable. If people were getting quality equipment, advice and livestock for their hard earned money, I don't think they'd complain as much. Also, I think the mark ups are well known to most of us. It's not as much fun when you know how much things really cost.

[Playa-1]

Am I off base?...
Yep,

I think your depth perception is poor :lol:

[chrissreef]

Playa-1 wins the thread! =)

[Kieth71]

Lol pay what you can afford..not everyone can afford 1k for a light or 800 for a skimmer..this doesnt mean people are cheap it means some people who enjoy this hobby are not rich and do what they can to enjoy this hobby without going bankrupt.If you want to spend that much on equiptment bye all means go ahead.IE the light i have i spent 350 shipped to my door..the lfs wanted over 500..some things are just common sense.

[CoRPS]

spelling is definitely not common sense though :)

:lol: just messin' with ya.

[Kieth71]

Yes i saw that after ..i knew someone was gonna jump on it:)

[Slakker]

Football tickets and dinner out are a treat for most people...and even so, most people I know who go to NFL games buy their tickets online because, shocker, it's cheaper. That $200 GPU someone buys for their computer would probably be $400 from a local computer shop, or if it's $200 at the shop, I bought it online for $70. (I spent a grand total of $300 to upgrade components in my old computer and it's now just barely below the current "top of the line." I run Fallout 3 on max settings and 50-60fps.)

I buy things for all of my other hobbies used or online because it's significantly cheaper...why should reef keeping be any different? The less I spend getting set up in the hobby, the more I can spend enjoying it. It's all about opportunity cost.

[Vincerama2]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13861191#post13861191 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by chrissreef
Thanks for the replies. I totally understand people trying to save $...

my "rant" is that people complain that LFS's are "ripping them off" but then they go out and spend $40 on a meal for two, $9 to watch a movie or $75 football tickets all with equal or higher markup and don't complain.

That's what I don't get. Why are people so against small businesses trying to break even but don't say a word about their other purchases?

You are making an assumptions here. People who complain about LFSs ripping them off are also complaining about $4 coffee and don't buy them, they don't eat $40 meals, they rent videos for $1.99.

Me? I complain about everything.

It's up to the consumer to decide what and when to buy things.

You guys are also assuming that if a fish comes from an LFS it's healthy, that's not always the case.

I support my LFS because it's great. I also buy stuff online. It depends on if it's something I can wait on or not. I'll buy equipment online, though I bought my tank, stand, skimmer and pumps at an LFS. If I want some more pumps, I'll buy online. If I want livestock, I'll either trade frags for it, or get it locally. That's me.

You can't generalize everyone on this entire reef board as Starbucks drinking, Nike wearing, football game going, movie watching, $40 meal eating cheapos who complain about LFSs.

Anyway, why does this bug you?

V

[gasman059]

do it cheap do it twice!

[gman0526]

IBTL :D

Priorities vary from individual to individual, not every reefer is born the same.

[Mr. Brooks]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13861628#post13861628 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by gasman059
do it cheap do it twice!


Not always true. Just because a LFS charges an arm and a leg for something, doesn't mean it's going to work. I don't know of any fish stores that stock quality equipment. Any time I ask for something I'm told they can order it. Why would I have them order something for me when I can shop around on-line and order it myself.

[CoRPS]

Yeah, the LFS around here don't keep much in stock in terms of equipment. They have some bobo skimmers and wet/dry filters but nothing extraordinary

[Slakker]

That's another good point...most of the LFS around here stock low end equipment and charge mid-range prices. Why spend $300 on a mediocre skimmer when you could get a great skimmer for the same price from an online vendor, or straight from the manufacturer?

[L98-Z]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13860867#post13860867 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by chrissreef
Am I off base?...

People will easily pay $150 for Nike's, $500 on an iPhone and $1000 for soccer, football, golf membership dues but fish/corals with 3x markup is OMG EXPENSIVE!!

People tend to ignore the markup and barely complain about $4 Starbucks coffee, $3-4 beer/soda at a restaurant, $75 pair of jeans or a new $200 graphics card for their computer.

But a $30 yellow tang, $5 frozen fish food, $75 acan frag or a lighting system $300+ and you get OMG! THIS LFS IS TRYING TO RIP ME OFF!!


I don't get it. Sure the internet exists... but so do grocery stores that sell beer for $0.75 per bottle and stores like TJ Max which sell clothing bargains.

Maybe this hobby should cost more... it'd get rid of a lot of unnecessary people and boot out companies like Petsmart/Petco.


Much of the stuff you listed, I don't have/buy. However, the items you did, I'll always attempt to find them cheaper as well. Why wouldn't I do the same for this hobby?

[ReefGirlSara]

chrissreef - as someone who buys almost everything used or online, or trades to get stuff, I will say I do understand where you are coming from.

I love supporting small businesses, but when there are the 'Walmarts' of the world it is hard to stick with a cause when it is costing you more money (and money is harder and harder to come by).

I do understand what you are saying, and I agree with you for the most part. But everyone else made very valid points - and I think they are right, the majority of people complaining about the LFS prices are 1) unhappy with the LFS for other reasons too (quality/poor advice/poor in-stock selection) and 2) people who don't buy those high dollar items, at least without shopping around first to get the best deal.

[CoRPS]

I'm a student and I don't ever really have spare money. That's why I don't have a skimmer and do a lot of my stuff DIY. I've probably spent a total of around $300-$400 on the tank and about another $100-$120 on livestock. I've gotten away pretty cheap compared to a lot of people. And it's because I shop around instead of impulse buying at the pricey LFS.

[goodtimes]

The fish stores in my area offer no guarantees. So I can save money and get peace of mind buying online.

[virginiadiver69]

chrissreef, I guess no one ever explained to you that when people earn their own money they get to spend it however they see fit.
If a person wants to cut corners on a frivolous hobby so they can afford a luxury of their own choosing, even if it's one you don't approve of, guess what...that's allowed.

Try to keep in mind that not everyone's life revolves around their tanks and may have differing priorities than you. It might prevent a rant from on high in the future. :love1:

[gasman059]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13861681#post13861681 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by thechad21
Not always true. Just because a LFS charges an arm and a leg for something, doesn't mean it's going to work. I don't know of any fish stores that stock quality equipment. Any time I ask for something I'm told they can order it. Why would I have them order something for me when I can shop around on-line and order it myself.
Its a 100% true- the statement was misunderstood. Do it cheap( half &%& then re do it and spend more if u did it right sometimes more expensive but one time!

[johnny313]

MOST pet shops dont keep anything good or expensive in stock because people dont wanna spend the money to get it. its not worth it to keep anything expensive in stock and sit on it for months. I live in a pretty big town and 99% of the LFS has cheap customers. they want what they can afford, not whats good! and another reason why LFS's are expensive.... overhead!
the LFS doesnt want to buy a skimmer for HUNDRESD of dollars and make $20 on it. they will buy cheaper stuff and make more money ( dry goods that is ) remeber one thing... its a BUSINESS

[ang_99]

I don't mind the start up costs so much. I'll gladly pay a good amount of money for a tank, nice skimmer, lights, live rock etc.. because I'll have that stuff for as long as I want.

Its the up keep, monthly, never ending costs that kill you.

Salt, light bulbs, RO/DI replacements, electric bill, carbon, probes, etc..

[johnny313]

I dont blame the LFS for selling cheap stuff. its up to the customer to RESEARCH what they want to buy! if its cheap you want, go to a LFS. if you are looking for quality, shop online because there arent too many LFS that sell quality items. and if they do its hundres more then online. I'm they type of person that if my LFS has it for much more, I will buy it because im impatient and NEED it now. i cant wait for it to be shipped! :)

[agreeive?fish]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13860867#post13860867 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by chrissreef
Am I off base?...

People will easily pay $150 for Nike's, $500 on an iPhone and $1000 for soccer, football, golf membership dues but fish/corals with 3x markup is OMG EXPENSIVE!!

People tend to ignore the markup and barely complain about $4 Starbucks coffee, $3-4 beer/soda at a restaurant, $75 pair of jeans or a new $200 graphics card for their computer.

But a $30 yellow tang, $5 frozen fish food, $75 acan frag or a lighting system $300+ and you get OMG! THIS LFS IS TRYING TO RIP ME OFF!!


I don't get it. Sure the internet exists... but so do grocery stores that sell beer for $0.75 per bottle and stores like TJ Max which sell clothing bargains.

Maybe this hobby should cost more... it'd get rid of a lot of unnecessary people and boot out companies like Petsmart/Petco.

Nikes.. i buy 10 buck wally world shoes

Iphone.. nope all i want/have on my cell phone is incomming and outgoing phonecalls and maybe 5 calls a month at most as the wife is the only person who has the number

sports.. i hate them so i think i have spent $0.00 there

starbucks yucky nasty coffee..i drink mine at home (army field coffee is good coffee)

beer/soda.. nope i drink water at a restraunt

jeans 20 bucks is my max infact i still have and wear jeans over 15 years old

computer stuff.. nope iam not "into" computers and dont spend money on them i just blow them up and buy rebuilt ones


Lfs..i have the choice of

walmart(no saltwater)

petsence(no saltwater)

Petstore#1..saltwater fish dont need salt in the water and you can safley put copper in a coral reef tank..and your best stocking is a 15" queen trigger in a 10g with a 24"unicorn tang

Pet store #2.. $79.99 for any yellow tang in the store I do buy from this store when i need something now, or when they actually have something iam looking for it is a good and knowlegable mom & pop store but the owner is a lawyer and his store caters to lawyers,judges,doctors,and airforce jet pilots..(those who have money or think they have money)

Oh did i mention iam so tight with the check book that i make a tight wad look like a big spender

[chrissreef]

Sorry if I offended anyone, that wasn't my intent =(

It was just interesting to me how people know coming into this hobby that it's expensive, and then they complain that it's expensive... or the markup bashing at lfs's but not for a $2 soda.

Be happy everyone =)

[stanlalee]

a quick glance around the forums I'm not convinced people in the hobby are cheap at all. I dont think anybody really involved in their hobby is cheap at all wether it be aquariums, cars, video games or flower gardening. usually people spent the absolute most they can possibly afford on their hobbies.

[noahm]

The good LFS stay busy. They give good advice, carry good eq, take good care of livestock and know their product. They also know full well that you can get something cheaper online, but don't rant about it so that when you need something they will happily help you out AND give you a good deal.

I have one good LFS, and 3 crappy ones. I actually wish the crappy ones went under so less livestock died needlessly and fewer people got crappy advice and/or equipment. I buy salt, food, livestock etc from my good LFS. If I am going to buy equipment, I Tell him what I can get it for online and he can often get me to fork out the difference because he is a good LFS and he helps me. If not he still doesn't rant

Noah

[Boyman]

I think it is in our nature to save as much money as we can, if it isn't then it is still wise to do so. This hobby is expensive and not everyone can afford to spend as much as they can on a colony or equipment. I would love to have an elos system or a system decked with gear from deltec but it isn't going to happen for me right now. Does that mean I am cheap? I don't think so, it just means that I am limited, and I choose not to spend $120 for every $100 I make.

[m2434]

There is an LFS near me that sells dry good for about 2x, what online sites sell them for. For example, the other day I was looking at a MH lamp for ~$400, which sells for ~$200 online. Obviously this is a rip-off.... This LFS could buy it online and mark it up 30%, 30% is a good margin by retail standards, and I might actually buy it from them out of sheer laziness. I'm sure that if they lowered the price, they would make up for it with volume, but they are apparently a dumb as they think their customers are. I don't generally spend a lot of time complaining about it and instead choose not to buy from them...

If I can get $150 Nike for $50 online I buy it online, but I'm lazy, so if I could get them for $65 down the street, I might buy them down the street. Seems fairly simple, no?

A previous LFS, before I moved, never stocked anything, but they would order it and have it in a few days for about the same price as stores online. I was more than happy to buy from them just to support them (and I think I did support them :D)

[Mr. Brooks]

I don't complain, I just queitly use my common sense.

I find the best deals on the best equipment/livestock I can. Rarely do I find what I want let alone the best deal at any of the eight fish stores in my area.

Even if you have money this hobby can get out of hand. Especially if the livestock you're buying is unhealthy to begin with.

It's funny, those of us who really know what we're doing will pay more for healthy livestock that we know will live. That's what it really comes down to. Why pay a high price for a fish that'll be dead in a week.

There's only one fish store I'll shop at and I drive way out of my way to get there. Their prices are high but guess what? Their fish live. And if they don't, they offer a two week guarantee.

If more fish stores did this it might force them to take better care of their livestock. It might cost more in the short term, but long term they'd be bringing in way more business.

The other eight fish stores may hate it when I browse all day and never buy anthing. In fact one of them openly complains to me about it. I simply tell him to stock better stuff. I only browse on the off chance I might find something really great. Trouble is I rarely do. You'd think they'd take the hint.

[kimoy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13860867#post13860867 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by chrissreef
Am I off base?...

People will easily pay $150 for Nike's, $500 on an iPhone and $1000 for soccer, football, golf membership dues but fish/corals with 3x markup is OMG EXPENSIVE!!

People tend to ignore the markup and barely complain about $4 Starbucks coffee, $3-4 beer/soda at a restaurant, $75 pair of jeans or a new $200 graphics card for their computer.

But a $30 yellow tang, $5 frozen fish food, $75 acan frag or a lighting system $300+ and you get OMG! THIS LFS IS TRYING TO RIP ME OFF!!


I don't get it. Sure the internet exists... but so do grocery stores that sell beer for $0.75 per bottle and stores like TJ Max which sell clothing bargains.

Maybe this hobby should cost more... it'd get rid of a lot of unnecessary people and boot out companies like Petsmart/Petco.
sooooooo....which store do you work at again?:rollface:

[chrismunn]

i do care about a $4.00 cup of coffee, thats why i dont buy it! and i sure as heck dont spend $75.oo on jeans! :lol: i care about prices because im poor! ;)

[coralfever]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13862924#post13862924 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kimoy
sooooooo....which store do you work at again?:rollface:


That's funny, I thought the same thing.

This doesn't only occur with hobbies, I am a residential GC and we deal with the same type of mentality on a daily basis. You will always have people on both ends of the spectrum. You'll have the chislers and the spenders, but most people will be somewhere in the middle. Nothing wrong with someone trying to get a deal or save a few bucks, but the tactics that are used may be what turn people off.

What ya gonna do? It takes all types.

[Slakker]

Basically what it boils down to is this: the online vendors offer good prices and in most cases superior customer service. If a local store wants to be competitive, they have to make some effort to compete.

Why would you expect someone to buy from a store that has higher prices and is lacking in both unique product AND knowledgeable, helpful employees?

[snorvich]

I buy everything online. I do this because my LFS don't/won't carry the brands I choose to buy. I do this because I get a far better selection of livestock online.

[johnny313]

[QUOTE]<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13863072#post13863072 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by coralfever
[B]That's funny, I thought the same thing.

I'm thinking small LFS owner

[agreeive?fish]

^^^^ who had a customer who dumped him today for an online purchase

[chrissreef]

You guys are good... I work part time at a lfs, I have a salary job elsewhere. And yes, even with my employee discount, it's way cheaper to go online.

I've wondered about this for a long time though... basically since I've seen Walmarts take over the world. I try to support all local small businesses (non-fish and fish) as much as I can because I don't believe in supporting big corporations and sending jobs overseas. It hurts my pocketbook... but I value relationships and seeing the smiles on small business owners faces when they make a sale. Am I perfect, no... I've bought online several times, I just don't think it's fair how some complain about lfs costs when they really don't understand the costs associated with running a small business.

[BigJay]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13860867#post13860867 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by chrissreef

Maybe this hobby should cost more... it'd get rid of a lot of unnecessary people and boot out companies like Petsmart/Petco.

I think you almost had everyone up until whole "get rid of the unnecessary people" part. I guess it all depends on who you're calling 'unnecessary'.

Arguably the fish stores with the balls to charge three times the cost of livestock with no guarantees are "unnecessary". You can get a guarantee at liveaquaria for only twice as much as you should be paying.

We can probably add "fish store employees who know how to spend their customer's hard earned money better than they do" to the list of "unnecessary people".

Step aside, this board already has enough arrogant jerks. ;)

[Chihuahua6]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13861054#post13861054 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Reefer08
Because if everyone here thought like you then LFS would not exist. LFS would slowly stop carrying equipment because people would rather buy online and save themselves money and consumers would rather buy corals from each other.

IMO, take the LFS out of the equation and this hobby will stop existing. All newbies originate from a visit to an LFS (usually for freshwater fish hehe). Supply and demand is based offa LFS importing from wholesalers. etc etc...

Bottom line, stop being cheap and just pay the money for healthy corals and fish from your lfs.

Stop being cheap? Why? Because you said so?

Let's see, I can order anything I want online and save lots of money or drive four hours round trip to the closest good LFS to buy the same stuff for more money.

I choose being cheap as making the most sense here.

[BigJay]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13862525#post13862525 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by agreeive?fish

Oh did i mention iam so tight with the check book that i make a tight wad look like a big spender

I know a guy exactly like you. He wasn't so much someone who hated spending money. He just hated working. Passionately. He hated getting up every morning to put up with his idiot boss and customers so much, he saved/invested almost every dime he made and retired at 39. All he does now is manage his rental properties and plan his next cruise.

He's laughing all the way to the bank, while flipping the whole world the bird. I'm still paying off mortgage debt. Go figure.

[Slakker]

I try to support all local small businesses (non-fish and fish) as much as I can because I don't believe in supporting big corporations and sending jobs overseas.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13860867#post13860867 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by chrissreef
I don't get it. Sure the internet exists... but so do grocery stores that sell beer for $0.75 per bottle and stores like TJ Max which sell clothing bargains.

t.j.maxx has over 800 stores nationwide
Roundy's Supermarkets, Inc. is one of the Midwest's oldest and largest grocers. The company owns and operates more than 155 retail grocery stores in Wisconsin, Minnesota and Illinois

Where's the connection? You show me an LFS that has over 800 locations nationally, or even 150 in a tristate region, that still offers the same quality and service of an online retailer or privately owned storefront, and I'll shop there for the rest of my life.

The online vendors are the T.J. MAXX of the reefkeeping hobby.

Forget it...you don't understand, and I can't possibly take you seriously after you tried to compare an LFS to a corporation the size of T.J. Maxx.:rolleyes:

[Slakker]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13863712#post13863712 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BigJay
He's laughing all the way to the bank, while flipping the whole world the bird. I'm still paying off mortgage debt. Go figure.

This man is my hero.

[Lynx113]

Ok, maybe its not the norm but around here the local fish stores have competitive prices. Granted there is only 2 stores, but both of them sell there product at prices that compare to buying online especially when you count in the shipping. I don't mind supporting them at all when I am in town. The only time buying online helps is when you drop 1 or 2 ro 3 hundred on a big order and split it with some people. Otherwise yeah you can get a copper band for 19.99 w/ 30$ shipping. OR go local and pay 29.99$ mmm... let me think on that one.

[Slakker]

Or not buy a copperband at all, because they have terrible survival rates in captivity...IMO that's the real no-brainer ;)

[Playa-1]

That's an excellent point. Also you would expect a LFS operation to go out of their way to take care of the customers and do right by them if business were suffering or they gave a crap. I wouldn't mind supporting them a little more if they were more ethical and professional. For what ever reason that seems to be rare in the LFS business.

I've seen LFS sell obviously sick fish. They won't hesitate to bag up a fish that has disease or coral with aptasia on it and send the poor unsuspecting noob down the road to infect their tank. I've seen a LFS that will guarantee orders that he sells on his web site but refuse to guarantee the same exact merchandise sold to a walk in customer (I happened to drive about 45 minutes out of my way to visit his store in the first place, I will never do business with him again). I went into a LFS and the Manager was the only person in the store. I walked around for 20 minutes and the guy never looked up to acknowledge my presence. It's not like these places are especially clean, their staff is especially knowledgeable or friendly, prices reasonable or anything like that. I can't think of anything that especially impresses me about any of the Local fish stores in my area but they expect me to pay up for the privelege of doing business with them. I can have salt shipped to my door from across the country cheaper then I can buy it from the LFS. This isn't a mom and pop place. They have like 5 locations.

I have no sympathy or loyalty to a LFS that is run poorly. They obviously don't care about me so why should I bother supporting them. I'm sure not going to create a financial hardship on myself to support such a place. On that note, I would gladly drive past 10 LFS stores to find a really good one.

It's funny that you would mention Starbucks. I've never had a bad cup of Coffee and the staff is always friendly. The LFS wants to charge Starbucks prices and give you 7-11 product/service. I do not use Starbucks all that often but they never disappoint me. The LFS on the other hand seems to go out of their way to disappoint.

[FirstContact]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13861306#post13861306 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by thechad21
I think most people complain because their local fish stores sell them crappy equipment that doesn't work and livestock that they know is unhealthy or isn't compatable. If people were getting quality equipment, advice and livestock for their hard earned money, I don't think they'd complain as much. Also, I think the mark ups are well known to most of us. It's not as much fun when you know how much things really cost.

+1

Many LFS (but not all) seem to stock the lowest end equipment because they probably make the highest profit on it by selling to customers who just walk in and accept exhorbitant prices and recommendations without checking around first. I'd be glad to pay a reasonable 20% - 25% mark up on dry goods at the LFS as compared to on line. First, I get to see it before I buy it. Second, I get it right away. Third, I support the LFS. But with mark ups between 200%-300% and unfavorable return policies, it's hard to purchase anything from the LFS that's not already wet let alone special order something.

[chrissreef]

Slakker

"Forget it...you don't understand, and I can't possibly take you seriously after you tried to compare an LFS to a corporation the size of T.J. Maxx."

You missed what I was saying, I'm not comparing lfs to a major corporation. I'm commenting how people in other industries spend more for products when cheaper sources are available or shop where it suits them... but in this hobby, it seems like people get up in arms to lfs's pricing all the time when it's not even the lfs's fault and they're just trying to break even. Rather than shop elsewhere silently, almost everyone complains about lfs pricing rather than respect that they're just trying to break even. It's expensive for hobbyists and people forget that it's expensive to just keep the doors open at a lfs (electricity, fish losses, overnight shipping, lease, insurance, wages etc. etc. 2x-3x markup is enough to get by, not get rich... maybe it's the wholesaler/mfg fault for allowing online to be so cheap? I'm just asking questions...)

BigJay, what I meant by "'unnecessary people" were Petsmart executives wanting to steamroll reefs for quarterly profits and people that don't want to spend 2 minutes learning about the care of these wild caught animals and throw them in a fish bowl because the cost of the animals is so cheap and they saw the movie Finding Nemo. I don't mean "eliminate" them, I mean "being slightly cost prohibitive to some people". Does that make sense? There's a million ways you can argue that I know... especially you (damn you have a nack at that, grrrr). I'm just throwing a statement out there, take it for what it's worth. I fully understand that if the hobby cost much more, many of us wouldn't be here.

[chrissreef]

Playa-1
"I've seen LFS sell obviously sick fish. They won't hesitate to bag up a fish that has disease or coral with aptasia on it and send the poor unsuspecting noob down the road to infect their tank. "

100% agree, it's quite sad. I know of a lfs that QT's everything... his prices are even higher than other lfs's and he gets crap for it all the time... but his livestock is superb and people forget they're saving $ due to less losses. Every lfs should QT though, would save them some $$ too... but it requires space, time, more inventory, capital etc. etc.


FirstContact - I think they usually stock the lowest cost items not because they can get the highest margin or because they want to sell customers bad equipment... but simply b/c the good equipment is $$ and it will sell for $$$$ and thus sit on their shelf forever. Stores stock what they can move... I think they've come to the realization that people that know what good equipment is will buy online anyway. It's a lost cause for them =/

[ZoaFan08]

My LFS wants $69 for a Koralia #3, thats almost 2x as much as online. Why in the world would I buy it from them?

They are so expensive on dry goods I would go the complete opposite direction and say your stupid from buying it from them.

[gman0526]

Even if you like it or not brick and mortar stores are the conerstone of this hobby.

Is everybody here trying to say that all online sales are perfect and no problems ever arise? There's 100' if not 1000's of threads in the feedback forum from people not happy with something they bought online.

LFS are bussiness that are more expensive to operate than 90% of the online retailers out there. It is our responsibility as pet owners and consumers to be informed when it comes down to purchasing anything on this hobby. Don't blame the LFS for trying to run a profitable bussiness.

[chrissreef]

Zoafan08... do you know what the wholesale price is on a Koralia 3? It's like $30 or $32... online just ups it a few dollars because their "storefront" costs them almost nothing. lfs's have leases, insurance, electricity/utilities, fish losses/shipping, wages etc.

They're usually not "trying" to rip you off... really! =)

edit: don't forget to add shipping, wait time... though lfs's add taxes, but blame the govt for that one! =P

[Playa-1]

Even if you like it or not brick and mortar stores are the conerstone of this hobby.
Well times are changing. Kodak used to be the cornerstone of the photography industry and they had no vision for the future and got ran over by the competition. The survivors will be the ones that adapt to change.

[Reefer08]

Demographics plays a big role in what the LFS stocks also. Of course LFS in bad demographics are going to have cheap equipment/corals and stock a larger percentage of fresh water fish. If the demand is their for high end equipment and LE corals the LFS will stock it.

[gas4544]

I have a couple good LFS in my area. They have knowlegable employees who keep up with the hobby and they genuinely care about their customers and their livestock. They also have a good relationship with our local reef club and give us small discounts and hold great sales a couple times per year.

I will buy from them when I want to add livestock and the price is right. Otherwise, I buy livestock, primarily coral, online or buy from local reefers. We have some generous reefers with thriving tanks that love to spread the frags around for little or no cost.

For dry goods and equipment, I almost always order new products online or buy used equipment from other reefers. The selection and prices are simply better online.

The reputable LFS's with good customer service, wide selection, and fair prices will always have business. Many of us prefer to shop online, but others want personal service from a LFS that they can trust. They want to go to their LFS for advice about equipment, stocking their systems, and taking care of their critters. The LFS is like theri tank doctor.

I am willing to spend good money on my tank, but I am going to shop for high quality goods and livestock at competitive prices. I am not going to buy a $1000 skimmer, but I will occasional splurge for some other nice piece of equipment that improves my tank's environment for my creatures. I will occasionally buy a more expensive piece of coral, too.

This is the same approach I use in almost all of my shopping. I research extensively before I make a major purchase to decide what I want, and then I look for a good price.

Gary

[dnsfpl]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13860867#post13860867 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by chrissreef
Am I off base?......Maybe this hobby should cost more... it'd get rid of a lot of unnecessary people and boot out companies like Petsmart/Petco.

i beg to differ

everyone has the rights to hunt for the cheapest alternatives
be it fish/coral, branded goods etc etc

over here in sg, brand like polo ralph lauren, levi's etc etc markup quite a bit(more than 50%)
most of us have to mass order from USA :)

[havingfunin08]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13864324#post13864324 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Reefer08
If the demand is their for high end equipment and LE corals the LFS will stock it.

x2 on that

If a lfs stocks $1200 light system and sells one a year, why stock them. On the other hand if he stocks $300 light systems and sells 2 or 3 a week then hes a good business man.

This thread topic should have given it away, people in his area are cheap and he knows this thats why he stocks cheap stuff. When the market changes so will the lfs..

[Pheeshes]

I'm lucky enough to have a local fish store that is the same price as online stuff and they have great live stock selection at reasonable prices. so, my only complaint is that i don't have enough money to feed the habit.

[miniwhinny]

I'm NOT cheep. I'm a responsible mom and wife with one kid in private school and the other in college our family finances are important to me.

I don't consider it "cheep" to order a saddle for my horse online at State Line Tack for $245 (free shipping) when my local tack store sells the EXACT same saddle for $575. My responsibility is to keep that $300+ in our account not to give it away to someone else for no good reason. I'm not cheep, I'm a wise and careful consumer.

Same with fish stuff. I love my LFS and purchase a lot of stuff there...but I can't justify spending $59.99 for a koralia available online for $27.

[LittleBeard]

With this hobby and people being cheap? People in general will spend less money for the same product if they can. I think your complaint is more a function of the rise of internet shopping and less a function of people being cheap. With the advent of the internet people everywhere shopping for just about everything have found that they can buy stuff online cheaper than buying from a brick and mortar place because warehouses + websites require less mark up than a storefront. This does not just affect LFS but just about every mom and pop business out there.

I think if LFS want to compete with online retailers they will have to offer some other service that can not be matched online. For example book stores have added coffee houses, and play areas for kids.

Businesses must adapt to the market and technology if they want to survive... Such is life...

[decent37]

i hated the lfs in AZ when i lived there they are not friendly at any of the stores there, its like you are bothering them by coming in the store so almost all my reefin friends in AZ stopped going to lfs in AZ. But up here in Utah the lfs people are much more friendly and so I always go to my lfs in Orem because they are really cool and even give out free ro water.

[tufacody]

People may buy $4 coffee, but they wouldn't do it if they could get the same coffee for $2. You don't really have an option if you want Starbucks.

Most LFS in my area offer TERRIBLE service and or selection. I don't balk about their prices because I know I can go online if I don't like it. Combine that with the lack of selection and service then the LFS isn't nearly as attractive.

In addition, the markup on the animals is HUGE. Hundred dollar + fish are often available to the dealer for $10 or less. I understand completely that the LFS needs to do this to pay the bills, but as a consumer it doesn't concern me. The LFS has to make it attractive to me in other areas.

I am really hating how this country is exhibiting socialist attitudes towards business. The is a capitalist economy. Let the banks and car companies fail if they can't run their business. I feel the same for the LFS. It is up to them to find ways to attract consumer if they can't do it with price. But the fact is in order to remain competitive that have to start offering us things like survival guarantees, excellent service and knowledgeable advice. They have to remain competitive or attractive in other ways to survive, and if they don't do it I say let them fail so somebody else who can do it right has more of a chance.

[agreeive?fish]

The biggest problem with my llfs (the good one that is) other than his prices (79.99 for a yellow tang) is the fact that his selection is the same fish for the last 5 years... i go in every tuesday on delievry day and i see the exact same fish he had the week before... now he will special order a fish for you..but why should i pay his price and wait a week for a fish when i can go online order the fish myself and get it the next day fore the same price or cheaper than the lfs plus i have a 14 day waranty

[motrbotr]

I try to find the best deal regardless of what im shopping for or spending money on. Thats only normal. If you are throwing money around needlessly, you are either immature or fortunate to be in a position where money doesnt matter. For the other 95% of the population, we need to watch our money, especially in todays economy. Heck, i always keep tabs on the three closest gas stations to see which one is the lowest and thats where i go. :) No sense spending money that you dont need to. So all that money I save elsewhere can fund this expensive hobby.

[agreeive?fish]

^^^^ iam fortunate enough that money dosent matter.. i dont have any money so it dosent matter who is charging what iam still broke

[ReefGirlSara]

LOL!! agreeive?fish - I second that!

[Shekki]

Being a small business owner I try to buy my stuff from a local store. The owner is a good guy and while his prices may be a little higher, I'll pay that to keep him in the neighborhood. That being said, my nicest fish have come from Live Aquaria's diver's den, purely because my guy doesn't usually carry the ones I want.

[K9]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13862561#post13862561 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by stanlalee
usually people spent the absolute most they can possibly afford on their hobbies.
Totally right. Computer gaming is my hobby, which is why I've sunk at least $1200 easy into my system. That would buy a REALLY nice reef setup. :D

People spend $$$ on the things that please them. I think $500 for a set of golf clubs is ridiculous, but I'll spend the same $500 on a new CPU and video card that a golfer would think is silly. :)

[UmpaLumpa]

I have never once complained about prices. I knew what I was getting into before I even started. I don't buy livestock from my LFS due to their inadequate care of what they have there.

[redfishsc]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13860909#post13860909 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Chihuahua6
I don't get your rant. This hobby is expensive and if you can get something cheaper online than say a local fish store, then why not save the money?

I buy all of my stuff online or used from fellow reefers. I'm not opposed to paying more for healthy livestock from a LFS however. I just don't have a quality store nearby.

BTW I get my Nike's at the outlet store for $45, The most I'll spend on jeans is $45, I don't have a golf membership even though I live in a golf community etc. I can afford these things but choose to spend my money wisely and put the savings towards my kids' future.



+1


The more people that can afford a reef tank and learn about how fragile such an ecosystem is, the better off our natural reefs will be. The overpriced nature of so many things (especially hunks of plastic we call "equipment" and $25 boxes of pickling lime relabeled with an expensive-sounding german word... and repackaged baking soda for $10 for a few ounces...)

I don't mind corals and fish being a bit costly, makes people think TWICE --sometimes---about being stupid and losing a ton of money by putting SPS in a tank with cheap lights and high nitrates.


Given the technical complexity and, of course, the requirement of someone being at least halfway intelligent, I seriously doubt that a reef tank will be a household item, but still, a lot of folks avoid it b/c of the cost.

[Playa-1]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13866406#post13866406 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by agreeive?fish
^^^^ iam fortunate enough that money dosent matter.. i dont have any money so it dosent matter who is charging what iam still broke

+3
:lol:

Overall the market is demanding that the LFS step up to the plate and give the consumer what they are paying for. I can get bad advise, Over Priced crappy equipment, and fish food anywhere. If they have to order the livestock, I can do that myself, Why do I need them? IMO the LFS in my area are doing a poor job of separating themselves from the competition. They're not giving me a good reason to show them any customer loyalty.

When any business puts their customer base in that position then they are going to start shopping around. I used to shop at a grocery store that had outstanding customer service. Their prices were a little higher then normal but I would never consider going anywhere else. All the rest of the grocery stores are all the same.

It's all about Customer Service in a small business like this. The LFS in my area are missing the boat when it comes to Customer Service.

[ZoaFan08]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13864042#post13864042 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by chrissreef
Zoafan08... do you know what the wholesale price is on a Koralia 3? It's like $30 or $32... online just ups it a few dollars because their "storefront" costs them almost nothing. lfs's have leases, insurance, electricity/utilities, fish losses/shipping, wages etc.

They're usually not "trying" to rip you off... really! =)

edit: don't forget to add shipping, wait time... though lfs's add taxes, but blame the govt for that one! =P

I own 3 online stores so yes I know how they operate. Do you not think they have leases? Insurance? Electricity/utilities, losses and wages?

[lowendmelody]

thought I'd share my opinion as well, i only made through the first page of posts...

I bought my all my tanks that I've had including my newest from the lfs, as well as I buy ALL of my livestock there as well... though i am considering ordering a purple tang from Divers Den the next time they have a good size one..

but by no means should I or would I pay the ridiculous markup that LFS's put on equipment, seriously it's usually almost twice what you will pay for any given peice of equipment from any given internet site... any person in their right mind would and should buy that 40 to 50 dollar heater, online for 20 to 25... or maybe even save 3 to 5 hundred dollars on some of the bigger and more expensive equipment like lights and skimmers, etc...

it's just the rational, logical, and intelligent thing to do...

why wouldn't you be cheap about stuff like that, I always look for the good buy and I'm not cheap at all, and I'm definatly not rich, I live week to week like most other people in this world... however I am not cheap, nor would I think anyone was being a tight a$$ for doing so...

just my opinion, i love a good discussion just like the next person!

good day all!

[CoRPS]

I bought a Koralia 3 from the LFS for $65 not knowing I could get it at DrFoster's for $39

[Slakker]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13865995#post13865995 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by agreeive?fish
The biggest problem with my llfs (the good one that is) other than his prices (79.99 for a yellow tang) is the fact that his selection is the same fish for the last 5 years... i go in every tuesday on delievry day and i see the exact same fish he had the week before... now he will special order a fish for you..but why should i pay his price and wait a week for a fish when i can go online order the fish myself and get it the next day fore the same price or cheaper than the lfs plus i have a 14 day waranty

I know how that is...one of the LFS near me that went out of business over the summer would order the same basic fish with just one or two different options in EVERY order.

I asked the guy that handled their ordering and he told me the owner only wanted him to bring in the stuff that sells...somehow the exact same fish sold well every couple of weeks.

[lowendmelody]

truth be told, I really don't like dealing with LFS's at all...

unknowledgable staff in almost all cases where i live, and I've been to them all... outrageous prices, regardless of their economical responsibilities... the complete mis information you get ALOT of the time... I like to ask questions about stuff I am plenty self educated in just to see the answer, and alot of times with some of the answers I get, I just wanna slap someone (figuratively) ... all the kidz running around with their parents who aren't gonna buy anything and just get in my way and spook the fish... im not being bitter, it's just ridiculous in my opinion...

why would any serious hobbyists go here for anything? besides maybe some livestock like i do from time to time...

do you think a serious model maker goes to toys r us just because they sell some there too? ... No, they are going to the professionals and the "big boys" and using their online resources
to get what they need... any serious hobbyists in any field will do the same...

Sorry, i just really don't care for LFS's... if you live in Pismo Beach CA and you've been going to the same LFS's as I for the past few years and your actually into marine keeping, you know exactly what I'm talking about...

I know this is a bit off topic but, I wanted to share...

[lowendmelody]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13861856#post13861856 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Slakker
That's another good point...most of the LFS around here stock low end equipment and charge mid-range prices. Why spend $300 on a mediocre skimmer when you could get a great skimmer for the same price from an online vendor, or straight from the manufacturer?

this is a great point... never seen anything good in terms of equipment for the most part...

[conjuay]

[QUOTE]<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13860867#post13860867 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by chrissreef
[B]Am I off base?...

People will easily pay $150 for Nike's,[QUOTE]

Never have, never will

[QUOTE]$500 on an iPhone[QUOTE]

I'll find a phone booth and complain about the QUARTER

[QUOTE] and $1000 for soccer, football, golf membership dues[QUOTE]

SERIOUSLY what planet are you on????

[QUOTE]but fish/corals with 3x markup is OMG EXPENSIVE!!

People tend to ignore the markup and barely complain about $4 Starbucks coffee, $3-4 beer/soda at a restaurant, $75 pair of jeans or a new $200 graphics card for their computer.

But a $30 yellow tang, $5 frozen fish food, $75 acan frag or a lighting system $300+ and you get OMG! THIS LFS IS TRYING TO RIP ME OFF!!


I don't get it. Sure the internet exists... but so do grocery stores that sell beer for $0.75 per bottle and stores like TJ Max which sell clothing bargains.[QUOTE]
...And some of us drive ten year old trucks with a couple of hundred thou on 'em, and actually attempt to not squander our hard earned cash.
[QUOTE]Maybe this hobby should cost more... [QUOTE] and mayby you should stop sniffing the skimmate.

[lowendmelody]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13862170#post13862170 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ReefGirlSara
chrissreef - as someone who buys almost everything used or online, or trades to get stuff, I will say I do understand where you are coming from.

I love supporting small businesses, but when there are the 'Walmarts' of the world it is hard to stick with a cause when it is costing you more money (and money is harder and harder to come by).

I do understand what you are saying, and I agree with you for the most part. But everyone else made very valid points - and I think they are right, the majority of people complaining about the LFS prices are 1) unhappy with the LFS for other reasons too (quality/poor advice/poor in-stock selection) and 2) people who don't buy those high dollar items, at least without shopping around first to get the best deal.

another very good point ... :rollface: ok, I'll stop

[luv951]

To the OP...really now, I mean, come on?

I went to one LFS in this area and saw an ASM G3 for $500!!!

Would you buy that?

I will sell you one for $400 and save you $100. Both brand new. Support the little guy, right? And who is littler than someone like me, talk about small business, I don't even have a business, but I will sell you that skimmer for $100 less than my LFS wants for it......good deal for you!





Of course, I will buy it from Marine Depot for $309 and have it drop shipped.


Seriously, people like to save money. I cross-shop almost everything I buy and if I find a cheaper source, I get it there. How can that be anything but smart?

[lowendmelody]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13863915#post13863915 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Playa-1
That's an excellent point. Also you would expect a LFS operation to go out of their way to take care of the customers and do right by them if business were suffering or they gave a crap. I wouldn't mind supporting them a little more if they were more ethical and professional. For what ever reason that seems to be rare in the LFS business.

I've seen LFS sell obviously sick fish. They won't hesitate to bag up a fish that has disease or coral with aptasia on it and send the poor unsuspecting noob down the road to infect their tank. I've seen a LFS that will guarantee orders that he sells on his web site but refuse to guarantee the same exact merchandise sold to a walk in customer (I happened to drive about 45 minutes out of my way to visit his store in the first place, I will never do business with him again). I went into a LFS and the Manager was the only person in the store. I walked around for 20 minutes and the guy never looked up to acknowledge my presence. It's not like these places are especially clean, their staff is especially knowledgeable or friendly, prices reasonable or anything like that. I can't think of anything that especially impresses me about any of the Local fish stores in my area but they expect me to pay up for the privelege of doing business with them. I can have salt shipped to my door from across the country cheaper then I can buy it from the LFS. This isn't a mom and pop place. They have like 5 locations.

I have no sympathy or loyalty to a LFS that is run poorly. They obviously don't care about me so why should I bother supporting them. I'm sure not going to create a financial hardship on myself to support such a place. On that note, I would gladly drive past 10 LFS stores to find a really good one.

It's funny that you would mention Starbucks. I've never had a bad cup of Coffee and the staff is always friendly. The LFS wants to charge Starbucks prices and give you 7-11 product/service. I do not use Starbucks all that often but they never disappoint me. The LFS on the other hand seems to go out of their way to disappoint.

... the most well put post on this thread..... kudos my friend

[lowendmelody]

.... luv951....

your signature is hilarious.... fyi

[onebadgt]

I'm not sure I understand what you are talking about, unless you mean the people who are taking short cuts that are adversely affecting thier livestock. I know of one guy who is finally getting rid of his tank after his fish suffering & dying off becuase he wouldn't put the money into the tank to proper set up and maintain it.

[onebadgt]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13868674#post13868674 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by lowendmelody

but by no means should I or would I pay the ridiculous markup that LFS's put on equipment, seriously it's usually almost twice what you will pay for any given peice of equipment from any given internet site... any person in their right mind would and should buy that 40 to 50 dollar heater, online for 20 to 25... or maybe even save 3 to 5 hundred dollars on some of the bigger and more expensive equipment like lights and skimmers, etc...

it's just the rational, logical, and intelligent thing to do...



I have to agree with this. Our LFS tried to talk us into "leasing" MH's. It was like $100 the first month, $80 the second, and then $60 every month from there on out - but it included a bulb change every 11 months (like that makes up for it) - and this was on a set of 2 - 250 MH w/ballasts. And the funny thing was, they were buying them online, not through thier usual supplier so they were making a killingon the idiots who wouldn't shop around for a good deal or buy them used!

[Zebodog]

I have never put a price on life, and I prefer not to subject animals to any more stress than absolutely necessary.

The internet is a great way to save money on a lot of things - living animals is not one of them.

[chrissreef]

"I'm not sure I understand what you are talking about, unless you mean the people who are taking short cuts that are adversely affecting thier livestock. I know of one guy who is finally getting rid of his tank after his fish suffering & dying off becuase he wouldn't put the money into the tank to proper set up and maintain it."

Bingo

[Slakker]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13870010#post13870010 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Zebodog
I have never put a price on life, and I prefer not to subject animals to any more stress than absolutely necessary.

The internet is a great way to save money on a lot of things - living animals is not one of them.

I'd say that the Diver's Den creatures are kept in far better conditions than any LFS I've ever been in.

[ninjamini]

So here is the reason the LFS is so expensive:


I work for a manufacturer. There are two types of dealers (well there are really more than two but just to keep it simple) BIG ONES and small ones.

The BIG ONES buy in bulk. They have a sales person from the manufacturer come and push product. They buy it. They get deals on products, they get financial terms and flooring, advertising dollars, display dollars and volume discounts. They dont ask you to take it back if they cant sell it. They sell it at a loss and move on. Because of this they get the best pricing. Yes there is always 2 or 3 price sheets.

The small ones order 1 to 3 pieces. They dont have the money to buy in bulk, they dont advertise, they have tight or no credit and do not get terms or flooring. If they cant sell it they want to send it back. A manufacturer never wants it back. They think small and they are small. They probably always will be. They get the worse pricing. OR they buy from a distributor.

Manufacturers often use a distributor. The distributor orders in bulk and marks it up. They distribute a lot of different products so the order is not 2 or 3 pieces. This is the middleman. He makes more money.

Some times the distributor sells it to a retailer for more than the BIG ones can retail it for.

So here is my example. I went to buy a new PH. from a local shop. Which incidentally also has an online business and a few locations. They are not really small. They wanted $70 for the PH. I went on my iphone and looked it up at a online web site. $40. I had planned to pay more but that was ridiculous.




The thing to remember:


is that we, the people who come here and read, are not the normal customer. Most of the LFS customers are dumb. They do what the kid at the lfs says and buy what he recommends. The LFS is so hungry for a profit that they will sell anything to make a buck. They know that that they will churn customers. But they are shortsighted, which is why they are small, and they will do so.

Hey my LFS told me to put that anonomee in the eclipse 5 with the 6 watt light and two clowns. It will do fine....right.

[redfishsc]

The question I have here is, why are we talking about LFS as if all LFS's can be caricaturized into one big evil stupid idiot pet shop that sells betta bowls and is trying to rip everyone off?

Within 30 minutes of my house I have LFS's that hit every possible spectrum, --- the good, bad, and ugly.

I visit the good ones regularly and tend to make good friends with them.


The pathetic ones I visit once in a while to remind me of just how successful I am in reefing..... compared to these jokers with the cyano-toilets they call a "reef".

[Playa-1]

Within 30 minutes of my house I have LFS's that hit every possible spectrum, --- the good, bad, and ugly.

Some of us only have the bad and the ugly ones around us. So you will have to excuse us for ripping all of them. I guess I could travel across the country to find a descent LFS. But then it wouldn't be a LFS.

[Abraxos]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13861191#post13861191 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by chrissreef
Thanks for the replies. I totally understand people trying to save $...

my "rant" is that people complain that LFS's are "ripping them off" but then they go out and spend $40 on a meal for two, $9 to watch a movie or $75 football tickets all with equal or higher markup and don't complain.

That's what I don't get. Why are people so against small businesses trying to break even but don't say a word about their other purchases?

I would imagine people complain about all of it but in different spots. If I want to complain about how pricey corals are I will probably do so on this site but if I want to complain why I overpaid for football tickets it will probably be in an email to my buddies, and if I want to complain about movie costs it will probably be to my wife. Not as many people will hear those other complaints.
For the record, I am buying a coral a month due to costs which is making me impatient but I also missed all of Bama's games this year and skipped several movies due to high costs.
Lastly, sometimes a wife is standing over you with a baseball bat saying "This hobby is too expensive! Stop!" That doesn't help. :D

[Vincerama2]

In this economy...support yourself and your family BEFORE you support your local LFS.

I bought some Aiptasia-X for $15 instead of online for $10. Why? Well, with shipping, the $10 bottle would have been $15 anyway, but the LFS that I go to has gorgeous displays and an extra buck or two for me is worth the admission!

However, they also sell pumps there that are $10 more than online. Sorry but I'll buy the cheaper one.

For a buck or two difference, I'll shop at the LFS. For livestock, I'll shop at the LFS because shipping for livestock tends to be high if you want it to actually be ALIVE when it arrives! Also, it's nice to see what you are buying. Plus you know the LFS has to pay for feeding and displaying the fish so it's not unfair.

Marked up drygoods? Well for salt, saving on shipping a 50 lb bucket is worth it to get at an LFS generally. But pumps, skimmer, etc? I'll comparison shop online before...then I'll consider if I can make a DIY version for cheaper. Seriously, if you buy a $400 CA reactor then look at it, you'll feel ripped off....It's a tube with some PVC and a pump...

But....we'll buy what we buy and everyone can make their own decisions about what to spend money on. I don't care if people on the internet call me cheap or lame (Oh no! Someone I'll never meet in real life called me cheap! *sob!*)

V

[Ronny#66]

Just found this thread . I think this hobby is expansive and what one is not these days. I just bought a skimmer on line . Local shop didn't have one that suited my budget that would hang on back of tank. I was talking to the local owner and he said he pays himself $7000.00 a month rent he owns the bld . You got to sell a lot of fish and related equipment to pay that kind of rent + make a profit pay all the employees at least 10 . Has to be one heck of a mark up in this hobby. there has to be !! By the way skimmer was shipped free local store would not ship it free anywhere and I saved paying sales tax and shipping and handling we'll say at least ten bucks.

Ronny

Ronny

[ZOKU]

I guess you don't see people complaining about expensive Nikes and $9 movie tickets because... well... this is a reef forum. I'm sure if you did a search online, you'll find plenty of people more than willing to complain about those items.

But I agree with most... if me trying to save some cash in this already crappy economy because my LFS wants to charge * several * dollars more for an item like a pump, powerhead or bottle of Selcon... then, I'm going to buy elsewhere.

I don't think that makes me "cheap". You wanna pay a premium at your LFS for something you can willingly purchase for a lesser cost elsewhere (online)? ...knock yourself out, Thurston Howell III. :)

[gmate]

Three words for you....and they begin with

D I Y

Keeps costs down, makes you more satisfied when things work out great, and puts personal emphasis on your tank. Oh, did I mention it keeps costs down? If you aren't capable of building a mesh top to your tank or nailing some 2x4's together, I'd be surprised if you could get the logistics of a controller unit down to a tee. They're similar skills, when you boil it down.

[danderso]

LOL! These kind of threads can go on forever! I buy a lot from my LFS, but I have a really good one. I also buy online whenever I feel like it. I don't mind paying a little more (sometimes a lot more) for fish and corals I can see and I don't mind the guy making a profit on me because he has helped me with planning and learning this hobby. My tank isn't ready for sps yet but when it is I may place an online order. Clams too. Chrisreef obviously spent a many hours listening to the owner of the LFS where he was working cry about all this. I wonder if his opinion has changed in the last 3 years.

[Psirex]

I have never seen common frags priced at $75 and trust me I have been doing a lot searching for frags....

[Megatrev62]

I need more money!!!

[Reverend Reefer]

adapt or die! that's life.

you can't really follow a bunch of rich hippies saying support local if its gunna cost 5x the price with bad customer service to boot. times are tuff. the market's changed, people's confidence with internet purchases have changed, everything changes. you gotta adapt. you gotta give someone a reason to come back to a brick and mortar mom and pop shop. you're not gonna get anywhere complaining to your customers about the high price of rent and the high cost of the wholesale market. we don't care.

if we're gunna pay more, there's gotta be a reason: better in person customer service, friendly knowledgeable staff, wider selection of healthy livestock, whatever it may be.

that being said, i have noticed a small trend change in LFS business strategy, at least in some shops. personally, i go to LFS to buy livestock. i generally won't buy dry goods/equipment because its cheaper online. i do however, want to inspect my fish and corals, get a good idea of their size, coloration, health, etc.. and sometimes even to just browse. i think a couple LFS in my area have generally realized this behavior in many of their customers who are a lot like myself. so what do they do to adapt and account for the decrease in purchases of high end reefing equipment??? they don't bother stocking it!

the ones that don't do this, end up sitting on this expensive equipment that doesn't sell, end up having to store it for a year, just to find out its gone out of style a year later - resulting in them having to eat that cost and put it on sale for less than what they paid for it.

clearly the smarter LFS stock less and less dry goods except for a couple pumps and little things here and there, mainly for people having emergencies where they need X now. other LFS in my area have adopted a dual market model, where they put most of their dry goods in a warehouse and opened up an online counterpart to their store. the brick and mortar shop is mainly for livestock purchases and a couple little things like what i said while the warehouse is run somewhat separately as an online store.

anyways, like i said, adapt or die. that's life.

[James77]

Wow what another dumb thread from years ago. But he topic seems to have become even more prevalent on this board. I will never understand why others truly seem to care what other hobbyists spend or don't spend on equipment or livestock. There is no minimum amount to spend to be successful if have fun, yet I see the same set of posters attacking people.

Spend what you can afford while being responsible enough to know what livestock limitations your cash places on you. Don't like someone not spending umpteen thousands of dollars? Mind your business and live your life.

[tebstan]

Sometimes a really old thread can put things in perspective. It started as a rant from a LFS employee, but it brought up some important issues.

The real problem isn't the customer being cheap, it's the customer needing a positive relationship and a fair deal - not either/or. Business owner's desperate struggle in a tough economy forces them to cut quality for the sake of quantity.

If they can't afford to keep top notch equipment, the big spenders won't come to shop. If they don't pay qualified staff a decent wage, they'll lose their good people and their reputation will suffer. Brick and mortar stores used to the be the foundation of this hobby, but many are shooting themselves in the foot and can't seem to stop the downward cycle.

A quote from THREE YEARS ago:

12/03/2008, 06:12 AM

Well times are changing. Kodak used to be the cornerstone of the photography industry and they had no vision for the future and got ran over by the competition. The survivors will be the ones that adapt to change.

From 3 DAYS ago:
Kodak files Chapter 11 bankruptcy (http://www.democratandchronicle.com/article/20120119/BUSINESS/301190010/kodak-bankruptcy-chapter-11)


Even three years ago, it was obvious that Kodak was falling behind the times. They knew this, but couldn't quite stop the end result. That's what a lot of LFS are doing - treading water, hoping the economy will improve and save them. The economy may have been a catalyst, but can't be blamed for their lack of innovation in their field.

[Dholmblad]

I think that people overvalue their used reef equipment way too much. Use electronics that is around saltwater should drop 40% of value if used.

[GPB]

If you have a good LFS and you don't shop there because it is a little more expensive , then don't scratch your head wondering why they went out of business.

Online sources have one big thing a LFS store can't match. That is a big customer base. Online dealers can reach millions of customers all over the country. They can build volume and get substantial manufacturer discounts. How many hardcore money spending reefers do you think live in any one community?

If you don't buy stuff from them but like using them for quality advice, testing samples , getting ideas etc, than you are just stealing. If they are a crappy store, than I would not waste my time there.

Reefing is an Expensive hobby. Most of us have investments in the thousands of dollars in our tanks. I don't think I can accept that reefers are cheap. Many of us spend all of our limited disposable income on our tanks.

[tebstan]

If you don't buy stuff from them but like using them for quality advice, testing samples , getting ideas etc, than you are just stealing.

True! However, if that's all they have to offer, then that is the store owner's fault.

If every week the new shipment includes the same variety of fish, the only skimmers they carry are coral life, they don't stock sumps or drilled tanks, and the staff is minimum wage teenagers that don't know about reefing...

They cater to new hobbyists, who quickly outgrow them and start to go online, or get out of the hobby, or flounder with a mediocre tank. Which leads to this statement, which I also agree with:


If they are a crappy store, than I would not waste my time there.



My area has a good number of stores, IMO. It's a large metro area, and we have 7 or 8 stores that carry saltwater. In the last few years, we've had two stores close down. (I'm not counting the dozens of PetSmarts and PetCos all over town.)

Of all those stores, there is only one I consider to be quality on ALL counts. Some have good prices, but poorly maintained tanks. Some have friendly staff, but little selection. The usual death traps for a small retail store.

The two that closed down? They were my favorites, and I ordered from them even if it meant waiting longer or paying more than getting it online. I'm just one person, so I couldn't keep their doors open. I won't show the same loyalty to a store that I think is dirty, unethical, or incompetent.

[1DeR9_3Hy]

Another thing people forget is the squeaky wheel gets noticed. I know a lot of people in this hobby that are not on the forums, and they spend a TON of money in this hobby.

I think this hobby (like any hobby) has there hardcore sects, and those are the people who will join a forum and try to do as much as possible with as little as possible.

[1DeR9_3Hy]

[SIZE=3]
This is the middleman. He makes more money.


All spot on except for this part. Distributors may do more volume or net sales, but they operate on or near 20-40% mark up.

Stores operate on 75-200% on most items unless they are getting beat up by e-retailers in which case they either try to get close to the price if someone haggles or they simply dont carry that item.