Reef Keeping Misconceptions

[kev apsley]

What do you find to be the most popular misconceptions in the reef hobby?

For example, why do we skim so heavy and then spend lot's of money on additives to add back into our tanks what we just pulled out???

list what you think are reef keeping misconceptions in your mind and why

[greenbean36191]

These links cover most of the big ones

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-11/eb/index.php
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-12/eb/index.php
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-01/eb/index.php

http://www.reefaquariumforum.com/reefkeeping-myths-t3397.html

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1187329&highlight=misconceptions

[kev apsley]

greenbean36191... good links didn't know they were even out there..I'm gonna read them over..Thanks

[Flavum]

aww Ive gotta click the link and than read about it though, thats way too inconvenient can someone just spoon feed me the info ;)

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

For example, why do we skim so heavy and then spend lot's of money on additives to add back into our tanks what we just pulled out???

What do you think you are removing that you need to add back?

[kev apsley]

micro fauna, carbon sources, a lot of reefers like to skim heavy then they wind up adding stuff back into the water so isn't too nutrient poor...from the time I came into the hobby everybody stated you have to run a skimmer in order to keep and grow sps, I don't skim that's just my way I feel that it takes too much out of the water column, I do a lot of wc's to keep nutirents from getting too high...

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Well, I'd say that concern is analogous to being concerned about urinating while also drinking. You are not taking in what you are removing, even if at a quick glance it seems similar and some of the constituents are the same. :)

[kev apsley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13888341#post13888341 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Randy Holmes-Farley
Well, I'd say that concern is analogous to being concerned about urinating while also drinking. You are not taking in what you are removing, even if at a quick glance it seems similar and some of the constituents are the same. :)

if your overskimming your tank to the point that your corals become pale, light and starved out then you turn around and add additives back into your tank to get your corals to look good again just seems uneccesary.

The point I am trying to make is that you don't have to run a skimmer to run a successful reef tank.

[virginiadiver69]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13888415#post13888415 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kev apsley
overskimming your tank to the point that your corals become pale, light and starved out
Is that even possible?
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13888341#post13888341 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Randy Holmes-Farley
Well, I'd say that concern is analogous to being concerned about urinating while also drinking. You are not taking in what you are removing, even if at a quick glance it seems similar and some of the constituents are the same. :)
:lol:

[kev apsley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13888487#post13888487 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by virginiadiver69
Is that even possible?

:lol:

are you serious? ummmm yeah, where have you been??

if your gonna post something at least make it half intelligent

[virginiadiver69]

Simmer down spunky.
I was merely curious and asked a question.

Where have I been? I've been on this board for two years and your the first person I've ever seen suggest the extremes of bleached out corral due solely to over skimming. I'm sure that if it were anything more than delusional it would get just a little air time. But it isn't so it doesn't.
...and as far as intelligent posting goes...I'm not the one insinuating that we add back to the tank what has been skimmed out. :p

[kev apsley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13888756#post13888756 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by virginiadiver69
Simmer down spunky.
I was merely curious and asked a question.

Where have I been? I've been on this board for two years and your the first person I've ever seen suggest the extremes of bleached out corral due solely to over skimming. I'm sure that if it were anything more than delusional it would get just a little air time. But it isn't so it doesn't.
...and as far as intelligent posting goes...I'm not the one insinuating that we add back to the tank what has been skimmed out. :p

First of all my name is Kevin not Spunky and I've been on these boards since 2004 and I have never seen you anywhere, so that tells me all I need to know..if you go into the sps forum it has been a talked about issue for quite a while, why do you think people dose AA's? yes, you can overskim your tank

somtimes I wonder why I even bother posting topics of discussion when all you get is people who want to act immature...it never ends!

[HighlandReefer]

You are assuming that most reefers dose AAs? If you look at the hobbyists that have received the honor of "Tank of the Month", I think you will find that few of these hobbyists dose anything other than calcium, alk & magnesium. I agree that many hobbyists are able to run systems without a skimmer.

[kev apsley]

first of all this topic has gotten derailed

I know not all reefers dose AA's but I do know that when you skim very heavy and run a BB system you can get so low nutrient that corals turn pastel and light in color, which hobbyist turn to either adding more fish for fish poo and add supplementation in order to get their colors in check

[HighlandReefer]

I find that it is ironic, that you have posted a thread, "What do you find to be the most popular misconceptions in the reef hobby?" Then you make a statement that is what I and many of the hobbyist's here believe is a misconception.

[kev apsley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13888940#post13888940 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by HighlandReefer
I find that it is ironic, that you have posted a thread, "What do you find to be the most popular misconceptions in the reef hobby?" Then you make a statement that is what I and many of the hobbyist's here believe is a misconception.

what do you find to be a misconception?

[Lynx113]

If you noticed Kev, he was laughing about "urinating while also drinking." you got bent out of shape for no reason. You make some good points I have been wondering the same thing myself and have started looking into Mangroves/miracle mud and an algae scrubber. I skim dry cuz it makes me feel better :)

[virginiadiver69]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13888783#post13888783 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kev apsley
I have never seen you anywhere
Well...you obviously don't hang out where the cool people do. :love1:
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13888783#post13888783 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kev apsley
I've been on these boards since 2004
Wow! :eek2: All hail Spunky. That's...let's see hear, two more years than me. I'm sure your wife/girlfriend is prettier, you drive a faster car and you have a higher paying job than I do too but, all I did was ask an honest question and got called immature and unintelligent for my trouble. :rolleye1:
P.S. You derailed your own thread with an unprovoked attack on a civil question.
By the way...I completely agree as well, that a successful reef can be run without a skimmer .

[kev apsley]

your a funny guy...I'm laughing over here

[HighlandReefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13888972#post13888972 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kev apsley
what do you find to be a misconception?

Kevin,

You may find this article interesting:

Feature Article: Total Organic Carbon (TOC) and the Reef Aquarium: an Initial Survey, Part I: http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2008/8/aafeature3

[kev apsley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13889123#post13889123 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by HighlandReefer
Kevin,

You may find this article interesting:

Feature Article: Total Organic Carbon (TOC) and the Reef Aquarium: an Initial Survey, Part I: http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2008/8/aafeature3

Thanks, I'll take a look at it :)

[virginiadiver69]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13889056#post13889056 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kev apsley
your a funny guy...I'm laughing over here
That's good Kevin...I got the feeling you could use a laugh.
I'm glad we can part friends. :)

[kev apsley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13889345#post13889345 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by virginiadiver69
That's good Kevin...I got the feeling you could use a laugh.
I'm glad we can part friends. :)

no worries it's all good! Peace

[Toddrtrex]

Some people should read the [ua]

[snorvich]

I agree. Arguments ad hominem are inappropriate.

[kev apsley]

nevermind

[JAustin]

what does dosing AA's mean?

[virginiadiver69]

I'm guessing amino acids?

[snorvich]

Amino acids for sure (various brands are available, I use zeo)

[Tang Salad]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13888904#post13888904 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kev apsley
first of all this topic has gotten derailed

I know not all reefers dose AA's but I do know that when you skim very heavy and run a BB system you can get so low nutrient that corals turn pastel and light in color, which hobbyist turn to either adding more fish for fish poo and add supplementation in order to get their colors in check
To speak very generally here, the reefers dosing AAs are doing it because they're running an ULNS. This Ultra Low Nutrient Sytem is achieved, again generally, by carbon/bacteria dosing, and not by over-skimming alone.

Hopefully that helps clear up one misconception. :)

[dots]

2 years or 20 years in the hobby, there is always something to learn. Moreover, that time is more about the "quality" not the "quantity" when it comes to RC and your participation you two!!

I myself am interested in the culture in this hobby, and sometimes try to pose philisophical social questions about the hobby, that often result in derailings, so I understand.

Life is full of misconceptions as we are very rarely certain to a large degree of accuracy, what we know and what we think we know are indeed correct and true to begin with.

Because this is still a new hobby, and nothing is set in stone, there are a lot of different approaches and theories to what creates "success".

As new information is found and applied, older methods remain and either found to be true/false/circumstancial and are either abandoned, rejected, or modified. But this can be slow to become the norm as people are not usually accepting of change, especially when thier current method appear to be working.

This is a constant cycle happening and misconceptions, which by definition infers an incorrect original theory, means we are getting closer to being "correct". These are good things to have, as long as we continue this constant learning I was mentioning.

This would explain in part the explosive growth in the hobby the last few years........as it has become "easier" to obtain "success".

Perhaps though, our greatest fallacies are that we base our theories on macroscopic views largely through what we see with our eyes, and believe the solutions to problems be single sources, rather than complex and multi faceted.

[Santoki]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13888783#post13888783 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kev apsley
why do you think people dose AA's? yes, you can overskim your tank
Like Tang Salad said, AA dosing arose from use of carbon dosing to reach an ULN environment and not protein skimming. Skimming is simply a necessary tool employed to deal with bacterial biomass issues when carbon dosing.
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13888783#post13888783 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kev apsley

somtimes I wonder why I even bother posting topics of discussion when all you get is people who want to act immature...it never ends!
The following certainly is not very mature IMO.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13888533#post13888533 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kev apsley
are you serious? ummmm yeah, where have you been??

if your gonna post something at least make it half intelligent
As for keeping a successful reef without a protein skimmer, it is possible if we are talking about soft corals, which IMO can grow in ditches with some water and salt. I have yet to see any skimmerless systems which contain thriving SPS colonies.

[kev apsley]

I know exactly why people dose AA's, my point was to merely suggest that perhaps we as hobbyist tend to skim too much and don't allow the natural processes in our tank to take place, such as allowing free floating bacteria and zooplankton to be taken up by our corals specifically SPS corals, which are known to uptake and feed upon those items for a source of energy and growth. If perhaps we skimmed a little less and used what's already in our water column ( zooplankton, bacteria's etc.) before we pull it out via protein skimming, it just might be an alternative method than dosing AA's and other additives which we use to make up for the lack of nitrogen and carbon. I don't skim because I can't due to the size of my tank but I know it's not the only way to do it and yes it is a viable tool but imo not totally necessary

[kev apsley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13906566#post13906566 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Santoki
Like Tang Salad said, AA dosing arose from use of carbon dosing to reach an ULN environment and not protein skimming. Skimming is simply a necessary tool employed to deal with bacterial biomass issues when carbon dosing.

I definitely am aware of why we dose AA's, it's a subject i have been following for over 2 years


The following certainly is not very mature IMO.

I appreciate the opinion but like everybody else, we all have our bad days..can't say I am perfect


As for keeping a successful reef without a protein skimmer, it is possible if we are talking about soft corals, which IMO can grow in ditches with some water and salt. I have yet to see any skimmerless systems which contain thriving SPS colonies.

I totally disagree, I happen to know of a few well respected hobbyist who have thriving SPS tanks that don't run skimmers

[Santoki]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13906948#post13906948 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kev apsley
I totally disagree, I happen to know of a few well respected hobbyist who have thriving SPS tanks that don't run skimmers
I would love to see them. There are non around where I live, and non that I've seen on RC.
Perhaps if they are fishless?

I think Randy's comical statement sums it up pretty well.
A skimmer will remove both beneficial plankton and bacteria as well as fish poo, chemicals released by tank inhabitants during respiration, uneaten food, anything decomposing, the list goes on and on. The idea is to remove the uneaten food and waste before it has a chance to break down. A skimmer needs to be employed to make sure neither of the two remain in the water column long enough to turn into fertilizer. On the reef, currents bring in food and carry away waste much like our skimmers do. Nothing sits around on a reef, including plankton. Based on your typical water volume to animal population ratio of a typical reef tank, the benefits of running a skimmer outweighs not running one IMO.
Getting back to reefkeeping misconceptions...
Is a skimmer needed to run a successful reef when "reef" is defined as a structure built by stony corals?
I vote yes.

[miwoodar]

Here's a skimmerless tank that is QUITE worthy of TOTM...

http://haaga.aqua-web.org/082006/index.htm

I'm not about to pull my skimmer yet though.

[kev apsley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13907562#post13907562 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Santoki
I would love to see them. There are non around where I live, and non that I've seen on RC.
Perhaps if they are fishless?

I think Randy's comical statement sums it up pretty well.
A skimmer will remove both beneficial plankton and bacteria as well as fish poo, chemicals released by tank inhabitants during respiration, uneaten food, anything decomposing, the list goes on and on. The idea is to remove the uneaten food and waste before it has a chance to break down. A skimmer needs to be employed to make sure neither of the two remain in the water column long enough to turn into fertilizer. On the reef, currents bring in food and carry away waste much like our skimmers do. Nothing sits around on a reef, including plankton. Based on your typical water volume to animal population ratio of a typical reef tank, the benefits of running a skimmer outweighs not running one IMO.
Getting back to reefkeeping misconceptions...
Is a skimmer needed to run a successful reef when "reef" is defined as a structure built by stony corals?
I vote yes.


what you are explaining to me I am well versed in, I know how things work within a closed reef system, your not telling me anything I don't already know, you obviously have your beliefs and I have mine, there is more than one way to skin a cat and there is more than one way to run a successful reef tank. Sure skimmers are a great husbandry tool, matter of fact I would use one if given the choice but they are not the only way to run a reef tank..as for successful sps systems that run skimmerless I'm almost 100% sure Tyree runs one or more of his systems skimmerless, I'll post pictures of my corals when I get home. I for one am somebody who runs reef tank skimmerless so I'm talking from experience, have you ever done it? I have seen it can been done, sure on larger systems it would be a good idea depending on a persons husbandry practices but for people to sit there and tell me it's mandatory it's not0

[miwoodar]

This one is pretty nice too. It's not SPS-laden but I think it counts for the sake of the topic at hand.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1506957&perpage=25&pagenumber=1

[kev apsley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13907675#post13907675 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by miwoodar
This one is pretty nice too. It's not SPS-laden but I think it counts for the sake of the topic at hand.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1506957&perpage=25&pagenumber=1

I knew I ran into a couple on here..Thanks for the link!

[Santoki]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13907674#post13907674 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kev apsley
I for one am somebody who runs reef tank skimmerless so I'm talking from experience, have you ever done it?
I hope I would never make any statements I can't backup either based on personal experience or factual evidence.
On that note, success to me does not mean a couple years. Success to me is long term sustainability. I've seen way too many nice looking tanks simply to hear they have crashed for one reason or another after a few years. If stony growths can be maintained from inception to full colonies while following a set procedure for more than a few years, I would consider that a success story.

[kev apsley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13907737#post13907737 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Santoki
I hope I would never make any statements I can't backup either based on personal experience or factual evidence.
On that note, success to me does not mean a couple years. Success to me is long term sustainability. I've seen way too many nice looking tanks simply to hear they have crashed for one reason or another after a few years. If stony growths can be maintained from inception to full colonies while following a set procedure for more than a few years, I would consider that a success story.

I understand what you are saying but as I stated before I believe it can be done with dedication and good husbandry skills, plus paying close attention to what your tank is telling you, I do believe it is possible long term, so far it's been 3+years for me, can I keep it going? I believe that I can, will I keep going, you can bet your last dollar

[Santoki]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13907642#post13907642 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by miwoodar
Here's a skimmerless tank that is QUITE worthy of TOTM...

http://haaga.aqua-web.org/082006/index.htm

I'm not about to pull my skimmer yet though.

This is a beautiful tank.
Is there a page or thread with descriptions of the maintenance regimen?
How often (and how much water) are water changes performed?
Any chemical nutrient control used?
Without getting into semantics, I'm assuming that large or frequent water changes are not to replace skimmers when we are talking about a thriving skimmerless system. Anotherwords, if nutrient management is to be replaced by frequent or large water changes and/or chemical media, the comparison between skimmer and skimmerless systems no longer remains valid since we are including variables not previously discussed.
However, I am not assuming that is the case with these tanks. I certainly was not able to make a skimmerless system work long term while following the typical/average maintenance regimen.

[acrylic_300]

Mine does ok without skimming...but I use pleated paper filters that are changed out weekly and bleached.

With the addition of a carbon source the filters plug about 5x faster resulting in faded colors.

I use AA and a carbon source depending on how the tank looks.

I sometimes remove the pleated filter for a few weeks to eliminate the wall between the tank and refugium.


Different strokes for different tanks I guess.

[miwoodar]

I'm inclined to believe (by a leap of faith) that a *mature* tank chock full of large, fast-growing, hungry corals is not as hard to run skimmerless as many of us expect. Further, I know of a local absolutely spectacular SPS tank that is definitely underskimmed according to *common knowledge* standards. His tank has the best colors of any SPS tank I have ever seen in person, hands down (on PAR with Marko Haaga's tank above). His tank also has longevity to support his success. However, if you asked him, he considers his tank underskimmed and he will soon be upgrading to a better skimmer. From my perspective, if it's not broke, don't fix it.

I'm still not willing to get rid of my skimmer though.

[miwoodar]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13907815#post13907815 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Santoki
This is a beautiful tank.
Is there a page or thread with descriptions of the maintenance regimen?
How often (and how much water) are water changes performed?
Any chemical nutrient control used?
Without getting into semantics, I'm assuming that large or frequent water changes are not to replace skimmers when we are talking about a thriving skimmerless system. Anotherwords, if nutrient management is to be replaced by frequent or large water changes and/or chemical media, the comparison between skimmer and skimmerless systems no longer remains valid since we are including variables not previously discussed.
However, I am not assuming that is the case with these tanks. I certainly was not able to make a skimmerless system work long term while following the typical/average maintenance regimen.

Those pics were taken after his tank was skimmerless for more than a year.

Here's how it was originally set up (http://haaga.aqua-web.org/hardware/index.htm).

Here's a summary of the life of the tank in Marko Haaga's words...
"Started September 2003.

845 l aquarium (200 x 65 x 65), 170 l refugium and 90 l sump.

About 100 kg of live rock. Most of the rocks are from previous aquariums starting from the year 1993. There is 3-5 cm of coral sand (0-2mm) in the bottom of the aquarium and 5 cm in the bottom of the refugium.

The light comes from two ATI Powermodul 8 x 39w T5. These lamps have been used nearly half a year now. There are 8 ATI Blue plus tubes and 8 Arcadia Marine White tubes. This combination seems to be best to my eyes at the moment. Four blue tubes are on for 13 h and the rest of the tubes for 11 h per day. The ATI Powermodul is a very nice lamp. It has one fan for every two tubes. The fan blows warm air to the sides of the lamps so that aquarium can stay much cooler than with metal halide lights. For that reason I now have to use a heater to keep the water at 26 centigrade. The refugium is light by three 39w T5 tubes (3 x ATI Aquablue Special) on for 12 h per day in opposite daylight rhythm.

Water flows from the aquarium overflow directly to the refugium and from there through overflow to the sump. As a return pump there is Ocean Runner 3500. Water movement in the aquarium is achieved with Tunze Stream 12000 on a Singlecontroller, Tunze 7410 pump and with Tunze Wavebox. Wavebox produces about 1 cm high wave in my tank in the daytime. Balling method is used to maintain calcium and alkalinity. Calcium chloride and sodium carbonate liquids are added with GroTech TEC III NG dosing pump. Sodium chloride free salt mix is not used at the time to test its influence on my reef. Water level is maintained with DIY mechanical level switch connected to pressurized RO–DI water containers. Salinity is of the aquarium water is kept at about 35 ppt measured with refractometer.

Activated carbon (0.5 l, changed once a month) is used continually in passive circulation. 120 l water change is done every week with RO-DI water using mainly Tropic Marin Pro-Reef or hw Meersalz Professional. Some trace elements, mainly iron, strontium and Tropic Marin Lugol's solution are added irregularly. Fish are fed usually once every day with small amount of frozen (mainly artemia and mysis mixed with small amount of Cyclop- eeze) or flake/granular food.

Over 12 years of reef keeping, I have kept tanks run with pure Berlin system, Jaubert's plenum plus skimmer, DSB plus skimmer with and without algae refugium, and with ZEOvit system. All systems have maintained healthy corals and good growth in my hands. Some systems have worked better in some points, but also in every system there has been some negative aspects. At the end of July 2005 I cut down many of the overgrown corals and removed some live rock and started to experiment with skimmerless setup. I also sold my calcium and kalkwasser reactors and started to use Balling method. The simpleReef was started. My experiences have been very positive. The setup is now very plain and natural, and it needs only a little maintenance. Corals and fishes look just magnificent. I will never go back to that classical high tech setup I used to have. I recommend this setup to all, to both beginners and to experts.
"

[miwoodar]

For me, a common misconception is that there is a 'recipe for success' that can be applied blindly. IME, every tank needs tweaking away from the recipe at some point in time and it is up to the aquarist to do his/her research on the next method to apply. Even the TOTM or TOTM-quality tanks which appear to be using a common recipe at first glance actually have quite dissimilar maintenance practices. DSB vs SSB vs BB? MH vs T5 vs VHO-only (banish the thought :eek2: :lol: )? DKH at NSW or DKH at 12? Ca at 410 or at 500?

[Santoki]

based on the above description, It would not be quite accurate to label this system a "skimmerless" system, since we have no idea what the tank looked like in terms of growth before he went skimmerless.
However, I still think <2 years is still too early to tell. Although Marko states his system "needs only little maintenance." it is still much more than I am willing to commit to. Perhaps that is why a skimmerless system failed for me. I currently try to change roughly 7% of water monthly, and sometimes I can't manage to due to time restraints. I also do not run any chemical media be it carbon or PO4 media, so there is no media to change out. I run bb and have several pumps blasting the sump bottom, so I do not siphon detritus either. The only thing I clean is my skimmer once a week. The display glass stays clean for up to four days at a time before I start to notice a slight film developing. I dose two part and vodka manually. I would say my maintenance is geared toward lazy/busy people but it is something I know I can manage long term.

[miwoodar]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13907987#post13907987 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Santoki
based on the above description, It would not be quite accurate to label this system a "skimmerless" system, since we have no idea what the tank looked like in terms of growth before he went skimmerless.

Actually, it's all documented on his site (http://haaga.aqua-web.org/index.html). IMO, his tank took a turn for the better after he went skimmerless.

As for the two year threshold, I agree. I've looked for 2007/2008 updates but I haven't been able to find any.

***EDIT
I found updates! Woo-hoo! You have no idea how many times I've tried to follow up to see what happened to his tank. Apparently he disassembled his tank last year and started a new one from the parent stock. He's keeping to the super-simple methodology he described earlier. Links:
Photos:
http://gallery.me.com/markopiatapioelina#100087&bgcolor=black&view=grid

Methodology:
http://www.sreef.fi/sReef/sReef.html

***

I'm lazy too. :D

[kev apsley]

I also want to add that if your tank is heavily stocked with fish then I would say in that instance it almost mandatory to have a skimmer

[noboddi]

If you look at Ultimate Marine Systems by Mike Paletta, almost a third of the tanks he showcases do not have skimmers.

Commercial aquariums have refugiums in a 1:1 ratio with the tank. There are other methods

I will add my own favorite misconception that phosphate is bad. You need some phosphate for healthy corals. Phosphate is not bad, out of balance water chemistry is bad. Too much PO4 and too many nitrogen compounds will breed algae. In the right amounts, it's all good. No PO4, and your corals will really suffer.

[Paul B]

As for one of the original questions I personally do not think you can overskim a tank. I skim heavily and always have.
I do not think overskimming will result in pale corals.
If anyone asks me where I have been, I have been keeping fish since 1950. My still running, heavily skimmed reef was started almost 40 years ago so I really don't need a source for my information as I write it myself.
:smokin:
I do not change much water, only about 20% 5 times a year or so.
Skimming removes water with the same relative proportions as the water in the tank. (except for DOC) Skimming removes basically whatever is stuck to the surface of a bubble. It only works because some molecules are at the same time attracted to water on one end and air at the other end. All that other stuff that is removed, is removed accidently as it is temporarily adhering to the surface tension of the bubbles. As more pollution builds up in a tank, the surface tension of the bubbles is greater and the bubbles do not burst as quickly. You can see it clearly on any beach with a surf, if the bubbles last on the sand, you know the water is poluted.
If your water is un polluted, the skimmer will remove almost nothing.

Have a great day
Paul :beer:

[KEstep]

I don't think you can overskim either. Well I guess if you had one of those skimmers that is 6 foot tall on a 55 maybe but otherwise or the volume of your skimmer is larger than your display but who is going to do that..... I use extra large skimmers on my tanks just so I can feed the crap out of my fish. With the amount of food going in and poop coming out on my tank I could not imagine what would happen if I had no skimmer. Also with the massive amounts of food going in the corals are eating a lot as well and I do not have pastel or faded colors.

[Paul B]

I don't think so either. My skimmer is almost 5' tall and is used with ozone.


http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/13094Copy_of_Copy_of_skimmer.jpg

[Santoki]

I think Paul's point, (and is what I've noticed as well) is that it doesn't matter how large the skimmer is. It will only skim if there is something to take out. The difference between a small and larger skimmer is the rate at which the "wastes" are removed.

[Paul B]

I think Paul's point, (and is what I've noticed as well) is that it doesn't matter how large the skimmer is. It will only skim if there is something to take out. The difference between a small and larger skimmer is the rate at which the "wastes" are removed.

Correctomundo

[porthios]

'Well, I'd say that concern is analogous to being concerned about urinating while also drinking. You are not taking in what you are removing'


whew.. you do that too? i get the strangest looks..

[Santoki]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13922854#post13922854 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by porthios
'Well, I'd say that concern is analogous to being concerned about urinating while also drinking. You are not taking in what you are removing'


whew.. you do that too? i get the strangest looks.. :confused:

[barnett8]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13888487#post13888487 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by virginiadiver69
Is that even possible?


Hello, I'm Adam and I am an over-skimmer. :lol:

The worst part is that it is true, my corals did become unhappy. The reason though was that there were no fish, therefore no input of nutrient sources. There was also a LOT of things taking out nutrients. Before this happened I did not think this was possible either.

[Santoki]

If you had no fish, and there were no input of nutrients, the skimmer will have nothing to take out.
Your corals were "not happy" for other reasons IMO. Without any fish or nutrient input, your corals would have been unhappy even if you didn't have a skimmer.

[dtaylor123]

[i]<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13888904#post13888904 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kev apsley

I know not all reefers dose AA's but I do know that when you skim very heavy and run a BB system you can get so low nutrient that corals turn pastel and light in color, which hobbyist turn to either adding more fish for fish poo and add supplementation in order to get their colors in check [/B]

Adding too much AA will do that as well.

[cybrsufr]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13920888#post13920888 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Paul B
I don't think so either. My skimmer is almost 5' tall and is used with ozone.

I am right there with you on this subject. I have had Reef tanks for several years and have used many different types of skimmers from multiple pump, high air volume shorties (Deltec), Simple Venturi, Beckett, and Mazzie and alway skim extremely wet and have never seen any nutrient deficiencies or pale corals. I currently run a dual mazzie injector Lifereef VS3 72" Skimmer with 200mg of Ozone and still have plenty of nutrients for the corals.

http://www.wreck-diver.com/images/skimmer/IMG_4686.jpghttp://www.wreck-diver.com/images/skimmer/IMG_4687.jpg
http://www.wreck-diver.com/images/skimmer/IMG_4688.jpg


This is a common misconception as the color of corals comes from the Photo reactive proteins in the actual coral skin and not the polyps themselves. The polyps are mostly clear even though a few can have a opaque tint to them. What happens when there are high nutrients, the zooxanthallae growth explodes (all zooxanthellae are brown) and then the polyps turn brown and mask the color of the corals skin tissues. With a ULNS or even LNS the zooxanthellae become clear and therefore the true color of the corals show through. I am seen this in nature as well. Diving reefs in the Indo Pacific inshore reefs that have a excess of nutrients have more brown polyped and brighter colored corals then on outer remote reefs where nutrients are lower and the corals have more of a pastel look to some of them especially the Stylophoras, Poccilaporas, Gemmifera. This is not to contridict the point that a good system can be maintained without a skimmer as there are plenty of methods for reducing nutrients (cryptic zone, algae scrubbers, DSB, Plenum, etc), but using a skimmer GREATLY helps reduce the maintenance of our systems and with them requires a lot more work in the way of responsible husbandry.

[Paul B]

Cybrsufr, I agree with you also.
A skimmer will not remove any nutrients important to corals. They will not remove nitrate, or phosphates or iron or calcium.

[Paul B]

Sorry double post

[thecoralreefer]

Jeez ya'all
I thought we add carbon to remove things in the water?
As far as skimming is concerned they do pull all kinds of things out
But corals do not live on fish poo alone sir. And by adding more nutrients into the water, it does not all get used. If it settles in anywhere you WILL have a problem. I wonder Kevin, Do you have any tubinaria in your tank? Most feed these with a baster.
If you are like me and to lazy to do this then you overfeed to make sure they get some food too. Hence A skimmer.
But I think that most of the skimmed product does derive itself from waist products from the coral and the fish. Why would you want to add those back in when they are waist? To support your pods??? Just like most people we are to lazy or do not have the time to do lots of wc"s Hence dosers and skimmers and irons to remove phosphates. It boils down to how much work do you want to put in to this hobby. Skimmers are for lazy people !!!
Or those to busy working ot play with thier hobby.
I had a fo tank for years but I always did a wc a the end of the week Now I work 7 days a week and just do not have the time.

Hell Man I am working now