Not so live rock! Aquaculturable?

[James79]

Hello,
Starting a new reef setup from the pieces of a torn down FOWLR tank, been down for +2 yrs. I still have the liverock from old tank. some was stored dry and some is being used for decoration in freshwater tanks. Can this be thrown in with new live rock and cured immediately?

I've also aquired what looks like live rocks. They were found behind a pet shelter in an icechest full of rain water a few years ago. Some we've used for deco's and some has been in buckets.
This is very porous rock and some coral skeletons, most likely came from some older saltwater setup. I think that copper treatment is likely in this rocks history. Will this be a problem if used in a reef setup? How long does copper contaminate rock?
Can I soak in water and test for copper to elimante risk?

My main goal is to use old live rock from first setup. Don't know if anyone has done this before or knows what will happen?

Thanks in advance.

[jaystampareef]

Yes, dead rock can be turned back into live rock. Make sure that it is Pacific rock! Rock (limestone) from the Caribbean (Florida, Haiti, DR, etc) will leach phosphate! By placing dead rock in with live rock, it will be seeded with algae, beneficial bacteria and micro organisms.

[AlabamaReefTank]

Can the same be done with sand without any concerns?

[jaystampareef]

as long as it is not silica sand... use aragonite, oolitic

[jenglish]

I would cook the rock just to be sure. It will get any phosphates or other chemicals to leach out of the rock. It will take a little while but its better to be safe IMO.

[jim.l]

Be careful with things found / stored in yards or fields if there was ever pesticides used in there....ie. lawn or agricultural. It would be ashamed to poison a tank to save a couple of bucks. If you think it's ok to use, remember any nitrates / phosphates in the rock before it was dried out are still there as is anything picked up in fresh water tanks, which also have nitrate and phosphate. It wouldn't be a bad idea to go through the whole cooking process with this rock and a few pieces of new live rock thrown in to clean up and seed everything.

[Aquabucket]

As far as copper is concerned I've worked at several LFS and I've seen pods, dusters, aiptasia, hydroids and many others things reappear in FO tanks within a month or 2 after dosing fair amounts of copper. These tanks had LR placed in them for decoration.

[syrinx]

If its had copper-pitch it- period. Its not worth trying to figure out what the problem is later. As far as aquas comment- he is correct that some pests and whatnot can return quickly- but its similar to the weeds that grow in the cracks in the street just because a weed can grow in a crack, doesnt mean you should plant roses there. Corals are likely to be much more sensitive to traces of copper. Even small amounts undetectable by the shabby kits hobbyists use will be enough to prevent growth.

[James79]

Thanks for the advice. Will cook rock from the old tank. Luckliy the rock found in chest shouldn't be needed as new setup is only 30 gallon total, but it would be cool to get free live rock. Might try in another bucket and see what happens.
Jaystampareef how would one determine the origin of sea rock?

[jaystampareef]

Look for rock that is very light compared to its size, It should be full of holes, and have a very "natural" look. Heavy/solid/dense rock could be from Florida (from a rock quarry, as Florida has a large phosphate mining industry) or the Carribean/ Gulf of Mexico. If the rock has a lot of yellow or red sponge, chances are its from the Gulf. Do an internet search for "live rock" and click on images. You'll see that Indo-Pacific rock looks different than Carribean/ Gulf live rock, (different colors, species of algae, shape, etcetera). Cooking rock will not boil out the phosphate. Cheap rock will very slowly seep phosphate into the water over time, no matter what.

[tkeracer619]

I would skip the rock and just buy it new. It has probably been contaminated by all sorts of stuff.







<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13899119#post13899119 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jaystampareef
Cooking rock will not boil out the phosphate.


You don't boil anything when you cook rock and cooking rock will absolutely rid the rock of phosphates. Research the term "cooking live rock".... its a proven method not some random idea.

[buildinboats]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13892365#post13892365 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jaystampareef
Yes, dead rock can be turned back into live rock. Make sure that it is Pacific rock! Rock (limestone) from the Caribbean (Florida, Haiti, DR, etc) will leach phosphate! By placing dead rock in with live rock, it will be seeded with algae, beneficial bacteria and micro organisms.

Is that true? Caribbean live rock leaches phosphate? Please explain.....

[jaystampareef]

Caribbean rock leaches phosphate... please read this link:

http://pubs.er.usgs.gov/usgspubs/cir/cir962

The above is about why phosphate rock is used as fertilizer, and how it could be a natural resource for poor Caribbean countries, (because of the geology... ie the rock)

Phosphate mining is huge here in Florida, which is used as fertilizer. The rock from quarries is plentiful... but useless. What makes algae gow super fast? Fertilizer (phosphate). Why add rock with built-in fertilizer into an aquarium?

Sorry, I thought that he meant that he would boil the rock for cleaning, (back to not using rock from a field or stored outside per possible contamination by pestisides/ insecticides), which would not remove phosphate. Yes, cooking rock is a method. Rock is also the cornerstone of a reef tank... the building blocks from which all live in a depends. Why mess around with sub-standard rock!!??

[jaystampareef]

Sorry, I meant to say "... the building blocks from which all life in a reef aquarium depends."

Typing too fast...

[tkeracer619]

Very Interesting. Is the phosphate bound in the rock somehow or available to leach? I noticed it is processed with acid to produce a form used for fertalizer.

[jaystampareef]

You know, exactly how the phosphate is extracted is a good question... I'm really not sure. According to the Florida Institute of Phosphate Research (which is located about 1 hour east of Tampa on SR 60 in Polk County, for anyone who may know the area) website, 1 acre of land on a phosphate mine produces 9,000 TONS(!!!) of phosphate. That is crazy! It sounds like the rock is turned into slurry and pumped away for processing.

Here is the link:

http://www.fipr.state.fl.us/research-area-mining.htm

I do know from experience that quarried limestone (which is easy to find in aquarium stores here) does leach phosphate. Years ago, when I first started, I bought the cheap stuff. Made my algae go crazy-out-of-control. I eventually got wise to cheap rock and threw it all away.

Florida/ Caribbean Limestone was made when shelled marine organisms died millions of years ago. Layers of shells layered up and combined with minerals. Pressure from sediment and water combined with eat and millions of years turned this "slude" into limestone. Florida/ the Caribbean islands sit on what used to be ancient reefs-turned-limestone. The reason why we here in Florida have som many sink holes is because limestone is easy dissolved by water. Rain water is absorbed by the limestone, which begins to dissolve, making underground caverns, (Florida Aquifer). These caves/caverns sometimes collapse, causing sinkholes. Cave divers can sometimes swim from one sinkhole to another vis an underwater cave. This is called karst topography.

[redfishsc]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13892511#post13892511 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by AlabamaReefTank
Can the same be done with sand without any concerns?



<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13892693#post13892693 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jaystampareef
as long as it is not silica sand... use aragonite, oolitic



There's absolutely nothing wrong with using silca based sand, lots of folks on this site have used it (sandbox sand, pool filter sand, etc...).


Some folks are afraid that it will leach silicates into the water, but that is not the case unless the silica has been contaminated with silicate--- Randy Holmes-Farly has discussed this in the Chemistry forum.

[jaystampareef]

Yes, but what how well does silica sand buffer? I doubt that it buffers as well as aragonite.

[jaystampareef]

If lots of people jumped off a bridge...

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I think that if there is phosphate deposited into calcium carbonate, it can only come off very near surface parts of the rock, and will of course come off as any surface regions get dissolved for whatever reason.

FWIW, any calcium carbonate can bind some phosphate onto its surface, and that can come back off into the tank. I discuss that here:

Phosphate and the Reef Aquarium
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-09/rhf/index.php


from it:

The absorption of phosphate from seawater onto aragonite is pH dependent, with the binding maximized at around pH 8.4 and with less binding occurring at lower and higher pH values. Habib Sekha (owner of Salifert) has pointed out that limewater additions may lead to substantial precipitation of calcium carbonate in reef aquaria. This idea makes perfect sense. After all, it is certainly not the case that large numbers of reef aquaria exactly balance calcification needs by replacing all evaporated water with saturated limewater. And yet, many aquarists find that calcium and alkalinity levels are stable over long time periods with just that scenario. One way this can be true is if the excess calcium and alkalinity, which such additions typically add to the aquarium, are subsequently removed by precipitation of calcium carbonate (such as on heaters, pumps, sand, live rock, etc.). It is this ongoing precipitation of calcium carbonate, then, that may reduce the phosphate levels; phosphate binds to these growing surfaces and becomes part of the solid precipitate.

If the calcium carbonate crystal is static (not growing), then this process is reversible, and the aragonite can act as a reservoir for phosphate. This reservoir can inhibit the complete removal of excess phosphate from a reef aquarium that has experienced very high phosphate levels, and may permit algae to continue to thrive despite all external phosphate sources having been cut off. In such extreme cases, removal of the substrate may even be required.

[jaystampareef]

I think we are getting off subject here...

James79, In a nutshell, yes, you can aquaculture your own rock. Yes, some rock is better than other rock. Yes, you can cook rock. No, you should not use rock possibly exposed to chemicals of any sort. Yes, some rock contains phosphate, which can leach into water. Kalkwasser precipitaes phosphate, so you can drip that into your tank to raise calcium and precipitate phosphate. Or, you can use a phosphate remover.

Also, no matter what rock you choose to use, phosphate will get introduced into your aquarium one way or another, (certain fish foods, supplements, etcetera contain some phosphate).

Get yourself a good phosphate test. If you have a problem, try a phosphate remover. If you still have a problem, try kalkwasser. If that does not work, test / change your water supply. If that does not work, change substrate. If that does not work, change your rock...

You can see where I'm going with this. There is a lot of cause and effect in aquariums. You just need to find what works for YOU.

[AlabamaReefTank]

Thanks 4 all the info