electric

[dbowman0327]

i feel a little tingle when i stick my finger in tank. i feel it if anything is pluged in pump or heater i was wondering if there was a way to stop this

[I'mRisenAquaRat]

From my experience with heaters, they are not fully submersible. The top of the heater must remain out of the water at all times. Once it has been fully submersed it will always give off a charge to the water. That's my experience with two of them. I bought a third heater and have been very careful not to submerse the top and I have not had a problem with that tell tale tingle that you can really feel if you have a cut or a hang nail.

[Whisperer]

I also experienced the same thing. I was very worried for my fishies. I could not find anything that was obviously defective until I realized I had a very tiny skin break in my finger that was very sensitive and, for some reason, allowing tiny electric current to flow. Do you feel the current in all your fingers? I only felt it on the finger with a cut. It's been ok since the cut healed.

[texhorns98]

<---- Runs to the tank to move his heater up!

Just move it so the dial is out of the water then?

[Ranchhand02]

Do the fish seem to react to the electric current?

[Mike31154]

Just about any electrical component placed into water will likely have a minute amount of leakage into the system. Many people use grounding probes to help minimize that. Furthermore, your system components should be plugged into a GFCI device for your own safety. As far as the livestock, voltage potential in the tank causes no harm. It is only a 'potential' and harmless until the potential has somewhere to go which will cause actual electric current to flow through the water to ground.

By sticking your hand or finger into the tank your body may become that path to ground. This will only be an issue if your whole body is wet which would lower the resistance path to ground, or if the voltage potential in the tank was extremely high. You could also get zapped good if you touch the water with one hand and say the heater or power head with the other. If either component is faulty you may provide a current path from one hand through your body to the other which would be bad news. The good news is that with a GFCI, the circuit would be disabled before the current is able to harm you.

Finally, salt water is a form of electrolyte, which is essentially one of the components used to generate electricity in a battery. Most batteries of course use a much more potent electrolyte such as sulphuric acid in a lead-acid battery. Nevertheless, the tingle you sometimes experience when touching the water, especially with a minor cut will have something to do with the salt water's electrolytic properties. Google salt water battery to learn more.

[WaterKeeper]

Excellent post Mike. People a GFCI is a Must on any tank. A broken heater or a faulty powerhead can produce potentially fatal currents in the tank. When you reach in, you complete the circuit and, as Mike said, if you are yourself standing or touching a good ground that current will flow though you. Don't take a chance and ignore this possibly life saving devise on your tank.

Grounding probes are used by many people. They are just a titanium probe that has a wire that you attach to a good ground outside the tank. If a heater breaks, the current goes to the grounding probe and trips the GFCI. They serve another purpose too. Often things like lights and pumps will induce a current into the tank even if not broken. The charge is small but some people feel it can cause things like HLLE in the fish in the tank. A grounding bleeds off these induced voltages too. If using a grounding probe make sure you have the GFCI installed also. The induced voltages won't trip it as they are not really part of the wiring circuit.

BTW, you still may feel a tingle from induced currents in the tank. Again a GFCI doesn't detect them. A grounding probe can stop that problem.

[texhorns98]

So if one were to retrofit their outlet to a GFCI, would you need to change the breaker for that circuit as well or just the outlet itself? Does using a surge protector accomplish the same goal here or no? I would think a surge protector only prevents a surge from the plug to your devices.

[robot2222]

No u can buy one at home depot . Change the outlet that is feeding your tank more economical and reliable.

[robot2222]

SORRY U DONT HAVE TO CHANGE THE BREAKER. You can also find splitters like if you were plugging extention cords outside weathrproof built right into them splitters with gfic protection . look at home depot or lowes YOU WONT HAVE TO DO ANY WIRING.

[WaterKeeper]

Or you can change the breaker if you are comfortable around electricity.

Thought I would add that in. ;)

[texhorns98]

GFCI outlets are around $20 here in Atlanta. To buy and outlet AND a breaker would be more like $60. I don't mind just changing outlets, but breakers I have no idea about! :) Another item for the list this weekend!

[WaterKeeper]

You don't need to use both a breaker and and outlet, nor a outlet and a GFCI extention cord for that matter. As long as the tank's equipment is protected by one of the options available.

Waterkeeper hates telling Newbies how to save their pityful lives but the Consumer Products Safety Commission requires me to do it.:(


:D

[dbowman0327]

this house only has the two prong outlets. for my tanks sake could i just beat a iron pole into ground right outside the out let im using to gound the new three prong outlet. or if the outlet was wired backward could that cause that

[reefrubble]

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[LoneRegister]

If the circuit is GFCI protected - should you install multiple GFCI's?
Can multiple GFCI's mess up each other if they are on the same circuit?

If I understand GFCI's - they trip when there is an inbalance in the flow of current.

If 10 Amps is going out, it expects 10 Amps coming back. If it shows 9.9999 coming back - it trips. (Remember it's the Amps that kills you not the voltage)

[northcoastdiver]

they make those plug-in GFI switches too if you don't want to change the whole outlet out. You can get those at HD. They are like $12 I think.

[thecoralreefer]

In reality the open skin is why you feel it more.
Think of your skin as insulation and when the inside is exposed it is a more direct contact and thats why you feel it more.
Yes any thing you put in there may and in fact does create a field around it and will generate a small current.
As pointed out the current has no pl,ace to go untill ground is introduced.As a bird on the wire, he is not affected because he does not touch ground. The fish are safe but as time goes on you will feel more current go through the system and give a better jolt. Any techies out there can tell you even your body produces a small current and you can watch it change due to the moisture in your body and humidity of the day. Try it. Get a godd volt meter and grab both ends, it will respond. Squeeze it harder and the reading changes. Applied pressure will create more "juice" flowing in the fingers.

[WaterKeeper]

That is electrifying Rubble. :D

[reefrubble]

WaterKeeper , may be a little current in the tank isn't so bad . he he he . Ted

[Mike31154]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13916357#post13916357 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by dbowman0327
this house only has the two prong outlets. for my tanks sake could i just beat a iron pole into ground right outside the out let im using to gound the new three prong outlet. or if the outlet was wired backward could that cause that

I also have an older home with several outlets having only two prongs. I'm in the process of rewiring, but be advised that two prong receptacles are not necessarily unsafe provided they are in good shape and the live and neutral wires are properly installed. Replacing a two prong outlet with a GFCI receptacle will provide the same protection as a GFCI in a three prong circuit. Even though you have nothing to hook up to the ground terminal, the GFCI will still be able to detect an imbalance of current between the hot and neutral wires providing you with that safety factor. The ground prong in all newer installations is more designed for equipment safety such as electric drills and other devices with metal casings. You'll note that many smaller appliances still use only two prong plugs (no ground terminal), however, even these are generally made with one blade larger than the other to ensure they can only be plugged in one way.

I'm not sure pounding a grounding stake into the ground will help you and even recall reading in an electrical code book that it may not be a good idea to ground just one receptacle without knowing how many other receptacles/lighting fixtures/etc are wired into the same circuit. If you're going to start rewiring, do it a complete circuit at a time by running a new cable with grounding wire. Any grounding stake should be wired into your main breaker/fuse panel, not an individual receptacle. Best to consult a licensed electrician if you're not completely knowledgeable with this stuff.

[Mike31154]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13987754#post13987754 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by LoneRegister
If the circuit is GFCI protected - should you install multiple GFCI's?
Can multiple GFCI's mess up each other if they are on the same circuit?

If I understand GFCI's - they trip when there is an inbalance in the flow of current.

If 10 Amps is going out, it expects 10 Amps coming back. If it shows 9.9999 coming back - it trips. (Remember it's the Amps that kills you not the voltage)

In most cases you will need only one GFCI to protect a circuit. The key is to install the GFCI receptacle upstream of the remaining receptacles on that circuit. In other words, if the first device installed after the circuit breaker in your main panel is a GFCI receptacle, anything downstream of this device will have GFCI protection. So there is no need to try and daisy chain GFCIs together. This can be a pro or a con in that yes it provides safety, but it will also knock out everything on that circuit when it trips. That's one of the reasons it may be a better option to use a GFCI receptacle rather than a GFCI circuit breaker, cost is another. With the receptacle you have more flexibility with placement and which specific equipment you need to protect. It's also a good idea to have at least two circuits providing power to your aquarium equipment, especially if you are away. That way if one GFCI trips, you will hopefully still have sufficient equipment to keep things going on the other circuit.

[Whys]

Someone else might have said it, but to be sure...

NO. A surge-protector is not a GFCI, unless it specifically states that it has a GFCI built-in, and I haven't seen a lot of those.

[Brent RH]

These old houses.... I saw a thread on here a short time ago were a fellow wired in a GFCI and still was getting shocked. That was a new for me although I don't frequent houses with tank issues. All new gfci outlets to be purchased should have a little lock symbol. this means the outlet is sold tripped and will not ever reset for use unless wired properly with or w/o a ground

[Brent RH]

I there is one thing i can suggest to crafty handy men would be other than replacing a outlet here or there, leave your electrical system to a licensed contractor.

[WaterKeeper]

Brent I think that is mild shock is from induced voltages in the tank. Some tanks have magnetic ballasts located in the canopy and they create induction voltages in the tank. It can give one a tingle without tripping the GFI as there is no true fault to ground.

[will16]

I have recently been investigating this issue as well. I used a voltmeter to check for stray voltage in the water by connecting the ground lead to the ground hole of a grounded outlet (Confirmed that it was grounded with a tester). I then touched the water with the other lead and If I was reading it correctly, read about 10 volts. Don't think that is a big deal? Could someone confirm that?

Then I started turning off devices one by one to figure out where it was coming from. It turns out that the stray voltage was coming from my lights (as waterkeeper mentions above). I have 2 electronic ballasts mounted on one side of my stand, probably about 4-5" from the sump.

I just recently ran a dedicated 20amp line for the tank with GFCI outlets. In the past, I have had false trips with the extension GFCI's but with this new line... so far so good. I was talking to the electrician and he said that you should not connect anything with a motor such as a pump to a GFCI as it could trip it. Currently I have everything on it (probably a 9 amp load) and haven't had a problem.

I did buy a grounding probe but have not installed it yet. In my case, would it make sense to?

[EnglishRebel]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13991916#post13991916 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Brent RH
I there is one thing i can suggest to crafty handy men would be other than replacing a outlet here or there, leave your electrical system to a licensed contractor.

Good point Brent. I am very confident about doing my own electrical work (wired my sunroom and passed inspection with flying colors). However if you install the GFCI and [list=a]
Do not wire the hot and neutral to the right terminals
OR Do not connect the load to the correct terminals (although all GFCIs come with a yellow warning label)
[/list=a] you are asking for trouble.