SPS and phosphate

[Tyrenlds]

I know high levels are bad for SPS, but I've read that a little P04 is beneficial. Can anyone clarify exactly what range we're talking here. What is too high, and what is optimal? I'm using NSW and the only draw back is elevated phosphate, tests at 0.04, is this within the acceptable range?

[Tyrenlds]

woops, actually it more like 0.3 to 0.4

[Genetics]

0.04ppm is a good level. 0.3 is way too high. You may have issues with survival at that level.

[Santoki]

any presence detected in hobby grade kits are too high IMO.
While "a little" is good, it's really a moot point since it is almost impossible to get it to zero without some sort of carbon dosing.
I would be more worried about other things if your NSW is testing 0.3-0.4. Check your test kit. It could be giving you false readings. Your source could also be contaminated with other things such as run-off, harbor waste from docked boats etc...

[Tyrenlds]

Santoki, i'm running phosban and it still hovers around .2 to .3. Hair algae is minimal, just a bit on the sand is all. I'll try another test kit brand... it's odd that GFO is having no measurable effect.

FWIW the sea water I get is from a local aquarium that pumps it in from the harbor. They're mandated by law to filter the water and maintain specific parameters because they house Seals and Sea Lions... I don't know what specifically they're required to maintain but nitrates are 0 and calc/alk/ph are perfect. I'm wondering if there are any harmful chemicals that I can't test for.

I've got some free corals from the LFS in there and all seem to be fine, monti digi, encrusting monti, and birdsnest. all three have colored up and show good PE.

[Santoki]

IME if you are seeing nuisance algae, your system is accumulating excess po4. Po4 removal media in this case will do little to ease the build up. The best thing to do is to figure out the source of the po4 and limit it that way. Po4 media can then be used to further reduce po4.
I'm no specialist, but I wouldn't think Seals and Sea Lions would be very demanding on water conditions when compared to corals since they are mammals and only their skin would be exposed to the water for any extended periods.
If most of your corals are growing and doing fine, I wouldn't worry about it. I would however try to reduce po4 to get rid of the nuisance algae. If you have a good skimmer, you may be a good candidate to try some carbon dosing.

[Tyrenlds]

great oversized skimmer. I have plans to run carbon in a reactor, this will help with PO4?

[Santoki]

no, running carbon will probably add to your po4 problem.
By carbon dosing I mean dosing a carbon source to feed bacteria.
Search for threads containing carbon dosing or vodka. There are also off the self systems which accomplish the same thing, but get very expensive when employed over the long term.

[Tyrenlds]

gotcha, will something like AZNO3 work? I've read about carbon dosing for nitrate removal but not for phosphate... interesting

[Santoki]

I don't know what AZNO3 is, but judging from the name, it has to do with nitrate management.
There are many informative threads on RC on vodka dosing. Go slow and you won't have any problems.

[toothman]

phosphate should be .02 to .04 but really just get some granular phosphate remover from bulk reef supply and place it in a bag in a flow area. It really is easy. I also would not run my tank with out a carbon source like vodka, zeo food, azno3. A picture of my tank where the phosphate is .02 and the nitrate is less than 1.

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/76771DSC_0473-med.jpg

[Tyrenlds]

nice colors toothman! I'm reading through the vodka thread now... will probably start dosing tonight. Baby steps in the beginning right?

[Dave's Reef]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13915548#post13915548 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by toothman
phosphate should be .02 to .04 but really just get some granular phosphate remover from bulk reef supply and place it in a bag in a flow area. It really is easy. I also would not run my tank with out a carbon source like vodka, zeo food, azno3. A picture of my tank where the phosphate is .02 and the nitrate is less than 1.

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/76771DSC_0473-med.jpg

Nitrate "less than 1"? Nice... My Po4 is at .01 but my nitrates are 25? I'm going to start dosing Prodibio Biodigest and Bioptom on Monday next week after my H2o change to try and get them down in line with the Po4...

[Santoki]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13915867#post13915867 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Tyrenlds
nice colors toothman! I'm reading through the vodka thread now... will probably start dosing tonight. Baby steps in the beginning right?
It really depends on how conservative you want to be. Results can take a relatively long time to achieve. If you want to take the conservative approach, maintain each new dosage for 7 days before increasing again. This will take longer, but it will be less likely for you to notice a sudden drop in po4 and no3 and have to cut back your dose. You can also use your montiporas as good indicators since IME they are the first to react to an ULN environment. Once you reach this stage, you can fine tune by feeding more or dosing less.

[toothman]

I think the most gentle additive is azno3, I would try this first. Vodka tends to spur on red cyano. ( I am sure this is a debatable topic, cyano)

[Santoki]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13921013#post13921013 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by toothman
I think the most gentle additive is azno3, I would try this first. Vodka tends to spur on red cyano. ( I am sure this is a debatable topic, cyano)
I have read some accounts of this, but have never seen it myself.
I tend to think it has more to do with lack of flow than anything. I do not have any cyano anywhere in my tank or sump at 5 months dosing vodka.

[trd47]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13915095#post13915095 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Santoki

If most of your corals are growing and doing fine, I wouldn't worry about it. I would however try to reduce po4 to get rid of the nuisance algae.

+1

[CUNAReefer]

Has anyone thought of recommending the use of kalk to precipitate phosphate. I believe the proper term is saponification.

"Calcium hydroxide, however, does have additional benefits such as saponification (improving protein skimmer performance) and phosphate precipitation."

http://www.coralgrowing.com/Alkalinity.php

Just my .02

[Santoki]

IME the precipitation is minimal. It works best if it is dosed 24/7. Also, I find that deposits form faster on the skimmer pump impeller when dripping kalk into the skimmer input. If there is enough po4 to grow hair algae, dripping kalk into the skimmer won't remove enough to make a difference.

[Genetics]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13922020#post13922020 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by CUNAReefer
Has anyone thought of recommending the use of kalk to precipitate phosphate. I believe the proper term is saponification.

"Calcium hydroxide, however, does have additional benefits such as saponification (improving protein skimmer performance) and phosphate precipitation."

http://www.coralgrowing.com/Alkalinity.php

Just my .02

I believe that reaction is reversible.

[Tyrenlds]

Well this is the second day dosing vodka to get phosphates down. Went right into it, dosing 1.0ml yesterday and the same this morning. No bacteria bloom occurred but just tested for nitrates and they're gone! NO3 typically tests <5.0 but never undetectable... this sucks. So now with nitrates zero'ed out the limiting factor for bacteria growth is nitrate not carbon, meaning for the vodka method to work I'll now have to DOSE nitrate somehow.

BTW, i'm already dosing calcium hydroxide in ATO, and running GFO... phosphates still there.

[acrylic_300]

I think dosing Amino Acids with a Carbon source makes Phosphate the limiting factor.

[Tyrenlds]

how do amino acids replace nitrate in the equation?

[Genetics]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13922273#post13922273 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Tyrenlds
Well this is the second day dosing vodka to get phosphates down. Went right into it, dosing 1.0ml yesterday and the same this morning. No bacteria bloom occurred but just tested for nitrates and they're gone! NO3 typically tests <5.0 but never undetectable... this sucks. So now with nitrates zero'ed out the limiting factor for bacteria growth is nitrate not carbon, meaning for the vodka method to work I'll now have to DOSE nitrate somehow.

BTW, i'm already dosing calcium hydroxide in ATO, and running GFO... phosphates still there.

That was incredibly quick to reduce nitrates like that! Are your phosphates really reading 0.3ppm with GFO? What type of GFO do you use? When was the last time it was changed? What is your flow through the canister?

[Tyrenlds]

I agree, was shocked to see no color change in the test kit. granted 5.0ppm isn't much. Got home today and the skimmer cup was half full, but when I looked the bubble level was at the bottom of the neck as usual. I think while at work the skimmer must have boomed, taken the bacteria out along with the nitrates and once N03 was cleared the reaction stopped. I just threw a few pieces of raw shrimp in to see if we can get it going again...

I ran Phosban in the TLF reactor for 2 weeks (feed pump flowing at suggested rate), saw some change but it stalled at 0.4 so then replaced it with Phosgaurd (aluminum issues I know, but it's all they had in stock at the time) slightly decreased levels since replacing the media but still at 0.3.

[acrylic_300]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13922696#post13922696 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Tyrenlds
how do amino acids replace nitrate in the equation?

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2007-04/rhf/index.php#15

Excerpt:

Note, however, that not all amino acids are beneficial. Many may just drive bacterial growth, and all contain nitrogen, so they may contribute to the nitrogenous waste that ends up as nitrate in many aquaria.

In case you don't want to read through it.

[Genetics]

You might want to switch out a bit more GFO and see if that drops it further. You may just have started with too much phosphate to begin with.

[Tyrenlds]

the seawater is the PO4 source. You think it would be better/safer to be aggressive with the GFO rather than use carbon? I guess once the problem is taken care of i can just run the GFO for a week after water changes, pulling out phosphate from the new water... probably wouldn't be too expensive.

[Reefer08]

what kinda phosphate tester and nitrate tester are you guys using?

[Genetics]

GFO can run some money if you need alot of it. Why not just use synthetic salt if there is a phosphate issue with the natural sea water? That would probably be cheapest.

[Todd March]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13926109#post13926109 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Genetics
GFO can run some money if you need alot of it. Why not just use synthetic salt if there is a phosphate issue with the natural sea water? That would probably be cheapest.

Absolutely, if the NSW is the culprit—lose it! I know it's handy, but it's obviously been compromised to contain that much PO4. I really would stop using it—never know what else could be in there as well...

[cnaegler]

Are you sure it's .3 and not .03? . At that high of a level, IMHO, you'd should be eat up with algae. Maybe it's your test. When testing for phosphate, IMO, there shouldn't be any problem distinguishing betweem .2 and .3, i mean that's a whole tenth. Usually you can test down to the hundredth...such as .02 to .03.

[cnaegler]

As a side note, if you're using a calcium reactor, check your effluent for PO4. I recently checked mine because my PO4 was a little high and i found that the output was at .09. I then made a effluent PO4 absorber to limit PO4.

[Santoki]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13923513#post13923513 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Tyrenlds
the seawater is the PO4 source. You think it would be better/safer to be aggressive with the GFO rather than use carbon? I guess once the problem is taken care of i can just run the GFO for a week after water changes, pulling out phosphate from the new water... probably wouldn't be too expensive.
It would probably be more economical in the long run to get a RO/DI set and make your own water with a quality salt mix. It's not surprising you are seeing high po4 levels in your natural sea water since it is gathered from the harbor, where pollution is usually high.