Uh-Oh: My first fish problem

[fender4string]

I just bought my first fish 2-3 weeks ago, a singapore angel. She's been in QT waiting for the big tank to cycle. Today I was looking at her and noticed some dots on her that I'm pretty sure weren't there before. They were very small, almost like sugar or salt grains. There was one that was even on her eye. Is this ich or some other form of disease? If it's ich how worried should I be? Also, how do I go about treating this? Some step-by-step on the treatment options and how to's would be extremely helpful as I'm still very new to the hobby. Thanks!

[danorth]

Sounds like ich, but that can happen, and is why you have a qt. I would check the levels in your qt to make sure the amm and nitrite are 0 and ph is 8-8.4. Also water temp.

[Recty]

Well, if you dont have it already, and I'm guessing you dont, immediately either order or go to your LFS and get some Seachem Cupramine, also get Seachem's test kit for copper. This is a copper treatment and perfect for your quarantine setup.

I've tried using quinine sulfate and copper and hyposalinity now on ich. The only thing that I can tell actually eradicated the ich so that it never came back was copper. Quinine sulfate seemed to make it go away, but once treatment ended my fish still have spots from time to time. Hyposalinity was basically the same outcome.

It tells on the package how to treat, but it's real easy to do and you just have to do it for 2 weeks.

[limitdown]

Salt grains, definitely ich. Cupramine made by Seachem. Raise temperature up to 84-86 degrees. You might see all of the spots disappear after just 3-4 days of treatment, but continue treating for an entire 3 wks. The parasites have not all died, they're just in a different stage in their life cycle.
Also, test your copper concentration and redose to 0.50mg/liter. If you have a substrate sand bottom, your copper concentration level will drop and you will need to test and redose every few days.

[Recty]

And as far as hyposalinity goes, some people swear by it. It does certainly seem to make the ich disappear so the fish recover, but once you raise salinity it seems to come back. I tried it once and I didnt leave my hypo long enough I guess.

I'd rather just treat with copper, unless you're treating your large display tank, then another treatment might be better.

[fender4string]

Ok I actually have some Cupramine but I need to get a test kit. Do I treat directly in the QT or do I treat in a bucket? Also the QT is barebottom.

Will raising the temp. be hard on the fish? Also is that just to quicken the life cycle?

Finally, how worried should I be about the fish? Is ich pretty serious or not so bad? I'll still begin treatment today regardless (once I purchase a copper test kit).

[fender4string]

Oh also what will this treatment do to my bacterial filtration? Will I need to do frequent water changes and if so do I need to keep buffering the copper back up to .5mg/L?

[fender4string]

Also just checked the levels.
Nitrate-0ppm
pH-8.2
Nitrate-0
Ammonia-1ppm

I need to get the ammonia down stat! Here's some details on the QT:
29 gallon
15ish lbs. of LR
barebottom
hang on the back filter with a carbon pad
Koralia 3

Should I just do a big water change to lower the ammonia? What caused the spike?

Thanks for all the input guys and sorry about the back to back posting

[danorth]

I haven't used that product so I don't want to guess on how to administer it.

Not sure why you'd have ammonia if there is carbon and live rock. But when you do treat, don't remove the rock, but do remove the carbon. Have you been trying to feed a lot and letting the food fall and sit?

[DamnPepShrimp]

Definitely remove the live rock. I only use PVC pipes in my QT tanks for the fish to hide in. If you treat with copper, your live rock will be no more and cause a major die off, throwing your water parameters all out of wack, probably killing your angel.

Your ammonia spike might have been from a cycle? Have you been doing water changes to your tank? Having a skimmer on there works wonders, even a cheap skimmer is better then nothing for your QT setup. I run a HOB proclear aquatics skimmer and a seaclone. Good luck.

[danorth]

DPS, if he removes the live rock, where will the ammonia go? The live rock won't die off with copper. I've done it. Now formalin is supposed to kill off all bacteria, but copper doesn't from what I've seen. When I had to dose my 135, I had about 30-40 lbs of rock in it, all of my fish and an Emperor 400 with the biowheels going. I can't believe the biowheels did the work alone for the 15 crew of fish I have. Ammonia and nitrite were always zero. I still set up live rock with copper if needed for a QT.

Heck, the rock I had in with that majestic angel that died last week with the ich and copper in the qt was rinsed in a bucket of water (no salt) and the tank rinsed and refilled and the rock is back in there and my undulate (got it out of the sump so it doesn't fight the cheato ball) and put some extra cheato in there with it (doesn't tumble though) and nearly a week later has no ich and 0 ammonia and 0 nitrite. No filter, just a Rio 90 powerhead.

[DamnPepShrimp]

Copper kills inverts, I would say most live organisms on live rock as well. I have never tried it because it has always been a big no no. I wouldn't risk it, because I have seen people who have tried treating fish in tanks with liverock, killing the rock and causing some of the fish to die. I just wouldn't try it. To keep water params in check, run a skimmer or do water changes. A real QT setup has no live rock in it for a reason. You never know what you may have to treat for so it's best to have nothing alive like rock in your tank. It may have worked for you dan, but I wouldn't try it in my tanks, too risky. Maybe the die off from your rocks killed the majestic? I know it was pretty sick to begin with though. By rinsing the rocks off though, you flush away a lot of the dead organisms. Not to mention how hardy of a fish an undy is. btw, did you ever get a video of the undy fighting and getting stuck in the cheato ball? Would have loved to see that!

[danorth]

No I didn't, but I wish I did. Regarding the die off, my copper levels tested just above 2.0 which is great since it needed to be 2.5. I still had bugs on the glass and in the filter pad in the emperor 400. I want to test this in a planned test with before/after numbers. Perhaps this Christmas I can devise an experiment using the rock from the undy tank and placing some in treated water, and some in regular water and add an equal amount of food to rot. In a copper tank the ammonia should be high and not change, or at least not as fast as compared to the regular water tank.

[fender4string]

Ok so I'm pretty sure the ammonia spike was caused by settled fish waste. I just did a 5 gallon change earlier and a lot of the fish poo was trapped under rocks where the flow couldn't get to it a stir it up. I vacuumed quite a bit out and will pry do another smaller change tomorrow to vacuum out more. I also added another powerhead hoping to make the flow more turbulent and maybe prevent this from happening as bad next time.

I'm pretty sure I'm not overfeeding. When I feed I only put about 2 flakes in and I always watch her eat all of the food, with the rare exception a very little piece gets tangled in the cheato or rocks that I have in the QT. I also feed 3 times a day.

As for water changes, I've started off doing about 2 a week but since everything seemed fine I've been doing 1 a week for the past 2 weeks. Is that too infrequent for the QT setup I've got?

[DamnPepShrimp]

Dan, that would be a great idea. I'd love to see results! Also different variables in the experiment. Good idea.

f4s, definitely in a BB tank vacuum out all the poo. That is the greatest thing about BB. My FO tank is BB and I run powerheads along the bottom and around the rocks to keep all the detrius moving and get it into the overflow to the sump/skimmer. When you do a waterchange, if you vacuum the bottom, your water params will be a million times better! Hows the angel doing btw?

[atlantisaquari]

fish get sick when they are stressed. its the ammonia brought on by a new fish in a qt. i would not use copper. it only makes the cause of the stress worse. i would use amquel or ammolock to give the bacteria a chance to catch up to the new load. just do what it takes to keep the ammonia at 0 and the live rock will deffinatly make him feel more at home and maybe give him some hiding places. the more the better.

i am just not one to use artificial cures . fish can usually fight off thier own disease givin they are not stressed. water quality and habitat.

[atlantisaquari]

another thing. some fish just do not do well in a small holding tank with little or no live rock.
they simply get sick and die. i have found the potters angel to be this way. its ashame to think so many fish get sick or die in a qt just because they are in one.

[atlantisaquari]

sorry but one more thing. you mentioned flake foods. eventually feed frozen foods like mysis and other shrimps enriched with vitamin c. also veggies. there are prepared foods available that have a very wide variety of stuff that keeps them from getting malnutritioned. if they dont get this the will almost deffinatly develop lateral line erosion.

[fender4string]

Thanks you guys for the advice. DPS, She's doing pretty well. She isn't acting sick at all, very active and eating.

So now I'm thinking...there were only a few spots on her so should I hold off on treatment or is this something I should jump on right away? In other words should I see if her immune system can in fact handle it? I'm hesitant to treat her as I'm obviously a newbie and I want to be sure that I'm not misdiagnosing her. What do you guys think? Also, just how bad is ich?

Thanks for the diet input atlantis. I'm also feeding her nori every other day. I'll definitely feed frozen when she's in the big tank with the skimmer. I'm really trying to cut down on messiness during feedings and apparently for good reason.

[Recty]

As far as treating or not, that is entirely up to you.

Just know that it does have ich and it always will if you dont treat. It might not be so much to bug her or kill her, but it will have it, usually in the gills in small amounts and you wont even see it.

All your fish transfered into the display after her will have ich, and anytime you have a big stressful event, like say your pumps go out or the heat or something for overnight, the ich will be insane.

I agree that a lot of fish can be tough enough to live with ich and seem fine, but I would NEVER place a fish I know has ich into a display tank, you're just asking for trouble.

[fender4string]

That's a good point...alright maybe I'll just treat her. I suppose only good can come from it. I mean I wouldn't want little bugs crawling on me all the time so I suppose it's only fair to the fish :). I'll let you guys know how it goes. I'll take your advice about leaving the rock in during treatment danorth 'cause my hang on the back filter sucks. Without the rock there'd be very little filtration and really no place for her to hide.

So one more question. During the treatment process, will I have to do frequent water changes since my filtration will be limited? How often? Also, I assume that I'll have to keep adding cupramine after water changes to keep the concentration at the proper dose right?

[fender4string]

Oh actually one more question (until I think of another one :)). Right now there is some cheato in the QT. Should that come out during the copper treatment?

[Recty]

I know Danorth treats tanks with LR with copper, but basically everyone else recommends against it. Usually it's better to go with the mainstream ideas on disease treatment, but that again is up to you.

I've treated for ich in quarantine tanks with no LR and never had problems with ammonia buildup. My last setup was two 4" triggers that I fed meaty foods to twice daily, with no filtration at all except water changes. I sucked from the bottom of the tank with a siphon hose daily and did a 3g water change on a 30g tank, so 10%. I did that for 2 weeks with copper and 2 more weeks after the copper and never had any ammonia levels at all. I think it really helps to remove the water from the bottom when you do your water change.

And yes, you do have to re-copper the water after a water change. You'll have to be more diligent about it if you leave the LR in as it adsorbs copper.

[danorth]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13951358#post13951358 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by fender4string
Oh actually one more question (until I think of another one :)). Right now there is some cheato in the QT. Should that come out during the copper treatment?

Yes...no need for it to be there during treatment.

[danorth]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13951602#post13951602 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Recty
I know Danorth treats tanks with LR with copper, but basically everyone else recommends against it. Usually it's better to go with the mainstream ideas on disease treatment, but that again is up to you.

I've treated for ich in quarantine tanks with no LR and never had problems with ammonia buildup. My last setup was two 4" triggers that I fed meaty foods to twice daily, with no filtration at all except water changes. I sucked from the bottom of the tank with a siphon hose daily and did a 3g water change on a 30g tank, so 10%. I did that for 2 weeks with copper and 2 more weeks after the copper and never had any ammonnia levels at all. I think it really helps to remove the water from the bottom when you do your water change.

And yes, you do have to recopper the water after a water change. You'll have to be more diligent about it if you leave the LR in as it adsorbs copper.

I don't know how much it actually absorbs, and if it is enough to make a difference to the treatment level that needs to be upheld.

Recty you must have had some ammonia in that tank, doesn't fish pee have ammonia in it?

With some triggers it seems they can get away with less than optimal water quality. But the fish in question is a singapore angel, which I would guess is more touchy.

[fender4string]

Ok how about this....does methylene blue work as a cure for ich? With that option I could just do dips right?
But then again, if she's got ich, there's a good chance that it's infested the rock in the QT right? If that's true, is copper still the best option as that would pretty much nuke everything? Just throwing ideas out there

[Recty]

Well I'm sure fish urine has ammonia, well not sure but thats the way I always understood it.

I tested twice a week and never found any ammonia at all, I think the small diligent water changes helped take care of it.

[Recty]

Yes, if the angel has ich, it is also in the tank. Chances are good if you took that LR and put it into an ich free tank, those fish in the ich free tank would have ich pretty soon.

Methylene blue doesnt cure ich in the least. I use it in my FW dips when I aquire new fish, but its definitely not an ich treatment.

[LisaD]

Sorry you are having problems. I found this information very useful:

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/index.php
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-10/sp/feature/index.php

[fender4string]

Thanks for the info Recty and thanks for the links Lisa! I'll check those out.

[fender4string]

Ok after reading the links and all the advice from everyone I think I'll begin copper treatment. I'll also remove the live rock and just do small water changes (every other day?) to help maintain water quality.

[Recty]

I did my water changes daily and had no issues... biggest thing is test your water every couple days or daily if needed and make sure you're not showing any ammonia. If you are, do more water changes.

I went to Home Depot, bought a 2' stick of 3/4" PVC and attached that to a 3/4" piece of flexible tubing that was 5 feet long. This allows you to control the tip since the PVC is rigid, and you just suck along the bottom. You can literally get all the extra food out and waste every time you do a water change, I think it really helps with keeping water quality up. And you should probably go by Home Depot and get a couple pieces of PVC for your angel to hide in too since you're removing your live rock, she will feel more secure in there with something to hide in.

[fender4string]

That's a great tip Recty-thanks! I'll be going to home depot to get the stuff for that vacuum design. What kind of piece did you use as an attachment between the two?

[Recty]

I dont know how much you know about PVC so I'll act like you know nothing, sorry if that is insulting ;)

There are slip and threaded fittings. Slip go right over top of the PVC and have to be glued on. It's basically a female adapter.

So I bought a 2' piece of PVC (my Home Depot just started carrying the precut ones, previously you just had to buy a 8' stick and cut it yourself which is easy, it's simple to cut) and then put a slip to thread adapter on it. So basically the adapter slides onto the pipe and the other side of it has threads. In the same section, HD has some gray adapter pieces for using with flexible tubing, they have what is called a barb fitting that the hose slides over. Get one that fits the size of flexible tubing you want and has threads on the other side, so it screws into the PVC adapter you are hooking to your pipe.

So basically there are 4 pieces. The PVC pipe, the slip-threaded adapter, the thread-barb fitting adapter and then the flexible tubing itself.

If nothing else, just ask one of the people in that section that work for HD about how you can hook a 3/4" piece of PVC to a 3/4" piece of flexible tubing and they can hook you up real quick.

Anyway, it really helps with doing water changes to have that. You dont have to stick your hand in the tank ever (make sure you get long enough PVC for what your tank depth is) and you can just siphon down to a 5g bucket and dump it in the toilet when you're done. The rigid PVC makes it really nice for selective cleaning, you can control the end to wherever you want. You'll notice there are certain spots in your tank that detritus or food build up, you just want to make sure you always suck stuff away from those spots when you're doing your siphoning.

I actually cover the entire bottom of my 29g QT tanks during a 3g siphon, just steadily move across the bottom and you can do the entire bottom every time. The fish will be scared at first but they get used to it, especially if they have a piece of PVC to hide in if they want.

[fender4string]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13955147#post13955147 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Recty
I dont know how much you know about PVC so I'll act like you know nothing, sorry if that is insulting ;)


lol thanks for the step by step breakdown. Before getting into this hobby I knew almost nothing about PVC at all. I've learned a little bit and made my own plumbing for the drain line so I suppose that's some improvement :). But I'll get all the pieces you mentioned (I actually knew what you were talking about! :) ).