Change over questions

[jtscuba02]

This weekend I am changing everything inside my 75 to my 125. It is a FOWLR. I swapped about 30 pounds of the sand from the 75 to the 125, in addition to adding about 60 pounds of new sand. I have about 75 pounds of live rock to swap out also. My question is about the filter. I have a wet/dry with the bio balls in the sump, which has worked great for me for the past 4 years. Should i swap half the BBs from the old filter into the new filter and run the tank like this for 2 weeks, or would i be ok to swap all the BBs out and go ahead and introduce my LR and fish? thanks, jt.

[lesleybird]

Hi, I would keep the old bioballs in the new tank for a while like 4 to 8 weeks to keep from having any amonia or nitrite problems in the new uncycled tank untill the surfaces of all the items in the new tank have a good growth of bacteria on them then you can change them out or remove the old ones. Lesley

[jtscuba02]

Thanks. That is what I am thinking. I have been told that the new tank will go trhu a cycle, after about 2 weeks, but it won't be quite as bad as a brand new tank. I have also heard to run both filters for a couple of weeks then remove the old filter. This sounds good, but it means cutting and using a hole saw to set the new tank up for twin filters. I really don't want to do this. jt

[mjw357]

Bioballs are bioballs, why swap old for new? The old ones already are loaded with all the beneficial bacteria, why mess with that? If your new filter has more capacity, just put all your old media in there and top off with new.
The trick to keeping nitrates under control with a wet/dry is clean media. Clean or change any prefilter floss regularly. You can even clean the bioballs once in a while, do it when you do a water change. Put a few in a bucket. When you siphon out tank water for the change, let it spray and rinse some of the gook off of the bioballs. You will be surprised how much slimy stuff can come off of them. With an established tank, any loss of bacteria will be quicky replaced.

[Snapper66]

Keep the old BioBalls they have all that you need.

[MrTuskfish]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13984299#post13984299 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Snapper66
Keep the old BioBalls they have all that you need.
Yeah;just rinse the loose crud off. NEVER scrub them, that slime is your friend. I don't use them at present, but have used bio-ball filters a lot; bio-balls should never have to be replaced. The use & regular cleaning or replacementof a good pre-filter pad/sponge helps a lot.

[jtscuba02]

So i should be good to just take the BBs from my established filter and put them in my new filter? So by doing this, will the tank go thru a mini cycle or will i have the same water paramenters as before. I know fish can handle some nitrate, but my water has never shown any and i dont want to stress the fish by moving them and then make it even more worse because the water quality isn't what it usually is. thanks, jt

[mjw357]

Yes, just move all your old bioballs to the new filter. I am assuming you are moving your stock to the new tank? If you are not increasing the bioload, you really shouldn't have any issues. Just feed lightly for a few days till things get settled. The fact that you are adding live rock and sand from your old tank should keep things very stable.

[jtscuba02]

Thanks for the back up. I was pretty sure i will be ok, but i would hate to do something and kill any of my fish or even the live rock. I have some pretty good growth on it and i kind of like the little feather dusters. Looks like they will make the move tomorrow. Thanks to all, jt

[MrTuskfish]

Remember, the bio-balls do not remove nitrate at all.

[DamnPepShrimp]

I agree, add your old bioballs, but after everything stablizes, remove them in place of some rubble live rock.

[Dadof4]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13988131#post13988131 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by DamnPepShrimp
I agree, add your old bioballs, but after everything stablizes, remove them in place of some rubble live rock.

Curious, why remove the BB and add LR rubble?

[Snapper66]

With all that You are Transfering to Your new Tank you should only have to go through a Mini cycle.You have a Good Head Start on your New Tank its not like your Starting from Scratch.I have up Graded several Tanks in the Same Manner.I had very little Problems at all some Fish were Stressed.But it Turned out real Good for the Fish and the look of a up Graded Tank Best Wishes on your new Tank.

[MrTuskfish]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13988131#post13988131 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by DamnPepShrimp
I agree, add your old bioballs, but after everything stablizes, remove them in place of some rubble live rock.
Why? This is a FOWLR tank and nitrates at the level of most FOWLR tanks don't hurt fish.(I don't have a magic number for an upper limit; but lets just say keep nitrate at 60ppm or less, with normal water changes,and you'll be fine). LR won't eliminate ammonia any better than the bio-balls.

[DamnPepShrimp]

Bio balls can make your tank crash. Its happened to many people including myself. They are nitrate factories and eventually will cause all your water params to go outta wack. Some people may find they work, most don't. I ran them once, got burned and haven't looked back since. I now run a refugium with rubble, I've had tanks that didn't even have skimmers and the growth on corals were amazing. I know this is a FO tank, but if you can keep better water quality, why not?

[jtscuba02]

The weird thing is i have only cleaned them 3 times in 4 years. And 2 of the 3 times is when i had to break the tank down and move it because of deployments. I read alot of threads that say to ditch them, but they have worked for me. Maybe i have just the right combination of live rock and sand in my system. And i do my monthly water changes. Most people would say my tank is over stocked with some messy eaters, but they all look quite healthy. I guess a big part of this hobby is trying to find the right combo for your system.

I got the filter up and running on my new tank tonight. I will transfer all the critters today and hopefully the will continue to thrive. jt

[DamnPepShrimp]

Whatever works for you. No two systems are the same, so if its working, go for it. I've had a tank crash before from them and I know many others have. Just be careful. Goodluck, hope it all works out for you!

[MrTuskfish]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13994913#post13994913 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by DamnPepShrimp
Whatever works for you. No two systems are the same, so if its working, go for it. I've had a tank crash before from them and I know many others have. Just be careful. Goodluck, hope it all works out for you!
How do you know bio-balls caused the tank to crash?

[jtscuba02]

I think i am going to need dual over-flows. I had no idea the mag drive 12 would pump so much water. I put the pre-filter box under the water line and the mag 12 still sucked the sump dry. WOW! So for now i put a ball valve on it until i get the dual over-flow box. My fish are still looking at the new tank like what is taking so long. So now i think i might wait to move them until after christmas. jt

[lesleybird]

You know there is more than one type of bioballs...the little ones are really bad as they trap all the dirt, but the big blue ones that are like two inches don't trap much at all. They are used in human waste systems. Bioballs are only nitrate factories if they get clogged with crud. I keep the big ones in each overflow half way up to reduce the noise then I use those micron filtration pads (rags) on top of them to catch the gunk before it gets to them or the sump. Wash them with a cup or so of unsented bleach in the washing machine by themselves (no soap), then use fresh water and anti-chlorine/anti-chloramine stuff (several caps full), to make them safe to re-use over and over again. That's my version of a wet/dry filter in each overflow which is just wasted space anyway. My big bioballs with the filter rags first never get dirty much at all....the spaces between the teeth in the balls is much bigger in the bigger balls which may be one reason they do not clog with debris as easily. One would think that rock rubble would easily get trapped with crud in a wet dry also. I joke with my husband when I tell him I have to do the fishes laundry! Lesley

[MrTuskfish]

Everything that is used as base for aerobic bacteria is a "nitrate factory"; if the definition of "nitrate factory" is something that produces nitrate. Bio-Balls, Bio-Wheels, most substrate, filter pads & sponges, ceramic & glass rings, any bag of filter media, etc, etc. are all "nitrate factories" Live Rock is also a "nitrate factory"; but fully-functional LR will convert the nitrate to nitrogen gas. So will limestone, which is just dry land live rock. (SeaChem's Matrix products also do a decent job). If you are using bio-balls (or whatever) and have rising nitrate levels, that means your "nitrate factory" is doing its job by converting ammonia to nitrate. So I guess, "nitrate factories are a good thing. Because nitrates at reasonable levels (let's say 60ppm) will not hurt fish; just keep the nitrates under control with water changes. If you do not use LR,limestone, Matrix, or one of the expensive de-nitrators; you should see rising nitrate levels, that's the only place for the ammonia (which is deadly and the cause of most tank crashes, IMO) to go.

[MrTuskfish]

Some additional drivel to my post above.
Nitrate can't be produced by anything unless organic material is present and there is a viable supply on aerobic bacteria to do the job. A good pre-filter over the bio-balls will let you get rid of a lot of the "potential nitrate" by cleaning the pre-filter pad/sponge often. If the gunk goes down the drain, the bacteria don't have to convert it to nitrate.

[mjw357]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14024401#post14024401 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MrTuskfish
Some additional drivel to my post above.
Nitrate can't be produced by anything unless organic material is present and there is a viable supply on aerobic bacteria to do the job. A good pre-filter over the bio-balls will let you get rid of a lot of the "potential nitrate" by cleaning the pre-filter pad/sponge often. If the gunk goes down the drain, the bacteria don't have to convert it to nitrate.

Ummm...I think you are getting your apples mixed with your oranges.

Fish produce ammonia (NH3) as a waste product, highly toxic in a marine environment. Nitrifiying bacteria convert ammonia to slightly less toxic nitrite (NO2) and then to even less toxic nitrate (NO3). There is nothing organic about this process, it is aerobic. Organic, by definition, would include any chemical compound that contains carbon.

The purpose of the prefilter pads is to trap materials (uneaten food, dead plant matter, fish poo) so that it can easily be removed as a solid, before it can break down into liquid forms, where it would then have to be removed chemically (carbon, resins etc), mechanically (protein skimmer) or diluted out (water changes). And yes, these kinds of waste will eventually produce ammonia as a product of breaking down. But they contribute other dissolved wastes as well, that cause other problems like unwanted algae growth.

Hope this helps.

[MrTuskfish]

I thought this is what I said; but I guess I wasn't clear. The organic material I referred to was fish waste, uneaten food, etc. This quickly becomes ammonia; I don't believe ammonia is created directly by the fish; it is part of the decomposition process. Nitrite is really not toxic in a marine environment (http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-06/rhf/index.htm) and nitrate is not toxic to fish. The level at which it becomes toxic to fish is highly debatable; but I have never seen any research that shows nitrate to be toxic to fish at, say 60ppm. Nitrate is toxic to inverts, however. I think we're saying the same thing on the pre-filter pads; get the gunk out before it breaks down

[jtscuba02]

Well, i have completed my change over. I thought i had the Danner 12 pump, turned out to be the 18. WOW! That little pump can flow some water. So i went back to the 9.5. Got the flow adjusted, and the skimmer is working pretty good. No brown stuff yet, but it is swirlin' and bubblin' the water pretty good. The fish seem to be happier, except my pinktail. He is still hiding. The Hippo Tang seems to have found a new friend in the Niger Trigger. The rest of the fish move out of his way, but the little tang hangs right beside him. Funny because the Niger is about 6 inches and the Hippo is about 2 inches. It took a while for the water to clear, but it looks alot better now. The lights are different also. These new ones are Day-glo, the old ones were 50-50 Coralife. I like them better, so i will probably go back to them. Hope everyone had a great holiday. jt