Wet Skimmate Water Changes?

[JMBoehling]

Any of you ever do your water changes with wet skimmate via your Protein Skimmer? Just wondering if there is any benefit to doing it this way vs siphoning off 10 gallon of water, trying to remove detrius.

Thanks,

Jim

[Elliott]

I do it this way all the time, gets rid of more detrius per gallon of water changed. For larger water changes, more than 5-10 gallons, I still remove and replace using the standard method

[JHemdal]

I've advocated that technique for years. It has the advantage of removing more POC per unit of water. The disadvantage is that some people let their specific gravity get out of kilter because they forget they are removing so much seawater with their skimmate. AND it goes without saying that you must have a safety feature to keep your sump from draining should the skimmer overflow.

Jay Hemdal

[JMBoehling]

Thanks for the responses. I just did my 1st water change using this method. Did 10 gallon using extremely wet skimmate. Took about 7 hours to do 10 gallons using my Deltec AP600.

Thanks,

Jim

[JHemdal]

Jim,

Ahh, I do this a bit differently, collecting perhaps 10 gallons in a week's time from a medium sized aquarium. Was the skimmate you collected dark at all, or did it look like tank water?

Jay

[JMBoehling]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14022203#post14022203 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JHemdal
Jim,

Ahh, I do this a bit differently, collecting perhaps 10 gallons in a week's time from a medium sized aquarium. Was the skimmate you collected dark at all, or did it look like tank water?

Jay

Tea Colored. Here's my thougts... I am thinking the Foam Fractioning will remove more of the organics that I want removed from my reef than simply siphoning off 10 gallons of water. Not sure if there is any truth to this. Time will tell I suppose..

Thanks,

Jim

[aaron1987]

Interesting. I'm not sure I have the patience to let my remora siphon off water for my changes, but maybe I'll give it a try. I know they're certainly capable of pushing a lot of wet skimmate.

[plyr58]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13998637#post13998637 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JMBoehling
Thanks for the responses. I just did my 1st water change using this method. Did 10 gallon using extremely wet skimmate. Took about 7 hours to do 10 gallons using my Deltec AP600.

Thanks,

Jim

How did you add water back during/after the water change? Did you just drain out 10 gallons then add 10 gallons back, or add new water as the old water drained?

[JMBoehling]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14026613#post14026613 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by plyr58
How did you add water back during/after the water change? Did you just drain out 10 gallons then add 10 gallons back, or add new water as the old water drained?

My sump is a 20 gallon tank and has about 5 gallons of water running through it. I add the new 10 gallons then skimmed off 10 gallons. This past change took about 4 hours to complete as I skimmed a little bit wetter.

Only 2 weeks into using this technique and I haven't noticed any positive or negative effects, then again it is early ;)


Thanks,

Jim

[Gary Majchrzak]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13989641#post13989641 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JMBoehling
Any of you ever do your water changes with wet skimmate via your Protein Skimmer? Just wondering if there is any benefit to doing it this way vs siphoning off 10 gallon of water, trying to remove detrius.

Thanks,

Jim
I do this.
I've been doing water changes by this method for many years. (Previous posts on RC regarding this).
I use my skimmer to remove old water at a rate of aprox. 50 gallons over the course of 12 or so hours.
This water is replaced with new.

[spamreefnew]

something must be wrong with my skimmer,,,,50 gallons in 12 hours!!!??!!! i am lucky if i get 50 ml in 12 hours lol

[E.intheC]

I feel like that's an interesting idea. However, I'd be especially concerned with the salinity... in that it will be tough to tell how much is lost due to evap and how much due to the wet skimmate factor...

[JMBoehling]

Just to explain. All you do is raise the water column in your skimmer be restricting the exit flow from the skimmer or by increasing the height of the return (This is what I do) to create a very wet skimmate. You can speed or slow the process depending on how wet it is.. Your skimmate should be the same salinity as your tank. Now I do stop my top off from adding water so I will lose a bit do to evaporation over the 4 to 5hours, but not enough to make a big difference.

I think the theory to this process is the assumption that wet skimmate carrying more DOC's than just siphoning off equivalent volumes of water during water changes. Kind off hoping a Marine Bioligist would chime in and let me know ;)

Thanks and Happy New Year to Everyone on RC!

Jim

[JMBoehling]

I failed to mention that I added a drain to my collection cup on my AP600 that runs to a 5 gallon bucket.. This is a must :)

Later,

Jim

[Gary Majchrzak]

the drain on my collection cup leads directly to a wash basin.

There's no doubt about the merit of this method. I usually feed the aquarium most heavily just prior to performing a wet skim water change. (I have a bioload that requires much food yet many of my Acropora demand a "clean" environment.)

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y270/gary334/Christmas_08fish.jpg

[JMBoehling]

Thanks Gary! I'm on week 3... Sounds like your on year 3, 5 or 10... I think I'll stick with it ;)

[Gary Majchrzak]

I can't recall how long I've been doing this but I know that I started it because it's a (relatively) easy way to remove water from any system plumbed to a protein skimmer.

[Elliott]

Gary, how do you measure the amount that is skimmed off to determine how much to replenish?

[Gary Majchrzak]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14051853#post14051853 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Elliott
Gary, how do you measure the amount that is skimmed off to determine how much to replenish?
I made a line with a marker on the side of my sump.
The process of removing old water with a skimmer is very similar to what you'd do if removing old water with a pump or drain.

[Ralph ATL]

I empty my cup twice a day, which in effect is a very slow water change. plus, I'll do a monthly water change.

[dagda]

How do you think this using wet skimmate compares to using the water directly from the overflow for water changes?

I just direct my overflow line to a basement drain and move my top off pump from fresh water to a saltwater barrel

[Gary Majchrzak]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14054968#post14054968 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by dagda
How do you think this using wet skimmate compares to using the water directly from the overflow for water changes?
think about this:
would you use water from your overflow to set up another aquarium or...

would you rather use wet skimmate to set up another aquarium? :)

[reefer31]

How can you get so much wet skimmate? My skimmer is skimming pretty wet as is and im not sure if it would be able to do 10-15 gallons a week! I know I have an under rated skimmer for my tank, asm g1 on a 120, and hopefully getting to be able to upgrade to octo ex 200 soon :lol: But anyways, is the water level in the skimmer like less than an inch from the top? Mine is right where the skimmer cup sits, so about 2-3 inches from top of skimmer?

[Gary Majchrzak]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14070702#post14070702 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by reefer31
How can you get so much wet skimmate? My skimmer is skimming pretty wet as is and im not sure if it would be able to do 10-15 gallons a week! I know I have an under rated skimmer for my tank, asm g1 on a 120, and hopefully getting to be able to upgrade to octo ex 200 soon :lol: But anyways, is the water level in the skimmer like less than an inch from the top? Mine is right where the skimmer cup sits, so about 2-3 inches from top of skimmer?
you basically raise the water level inside the skimmer neck so water is spilling freely over into the collection cup. Need a faster water change... how big is the drain on your collection cup?
MAKE IT LARGER :D

[reefer31]

thats a good idea. I guess if you think about it, it is better to do it that way than just taking out diluted water when you can take out more concentrated junk :P.

[mobert]

I wet skim and top off with salty water for my water change also. My skimmer cup has a drain to house sewage and my top off container has an automatic dispenser to add salt: http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=5163+5309+14436&pcatid=14436
I just added the Koi feeder filled with salt so hopefully it won't clog or rust.

I don't miss that 50 gallon Rubbermaid container that used to sit in front of the tank for water changes!

[Elliott]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14097502#post14097502 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mobert
I wet skim and top off with salty water for my water change also. My skimmer cup has a drain to house sewage and my top off container has an automatic dispenser to add salt: http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=5163+5309+14436&pcatid=14436
I just added the Koi feeder filled with salt so hopefully it won't clog or rust.

I don't miss that 50 gallon Rubbermaid container that used to sit in front of the tank for water changes!

how do you control salinity? seems the variables of evaporation and top off volume/rate, volume of skimmate along with a fixed rate of salt addition would be difficult to control. is all your top off done this way?

[mobert]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14098249#post14098249 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Elliott
how do you control salinity? seems the variables of evaporation and top off volume/rate, volume of skimmate along with a fixed rate of salt addition would be difficult to control. is all your top off done this way?

I actually do check my salinity every few days and adjust the salinity of the top off water accordingly. I have been doing it this way for three years and it gets predictable. For instance after a heavy feeding, I can expect the skimmer to be more active and I would add more salt to the top off container. Not hard to do and I feel that wet skimming has helped control my nitrates.

Yes, all my top off is salty water.

[mobert]

The other advantage of wet skimming is the skimmer neck needs much less cleaning. I only need to clean the neck and cup once every month or two.

[OCEAN SIZE]

mobert - you rock on so many levels. :D

I was considering this potential... and of course you've already done it.

What about using a controller (I'm thinking of getting a ReefKeeper Elite) to monitor salinity, then turn on the salt Koi feeder if it gets too low?

[mobert]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14100508#post14100508 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by OCEAN SIZE
mobert - you rock on so many levels. :D

I was considering this potential... and of course you've already done it.

What about using a controller (I'm thinking of getting a ReefKeeper Elite) to monitor salinity, then turn on the salt Koi feeder if it gets too low?

I don't mind checking the salinity with the hydrometer. I have gotten away from using probes----my ph and orp probes have long ago stopped working (needed cleaning or replacement much too often). The Koi feeder has a similar interface as the Eheim fish food feeders. You can adjust it to feed once or four times a day with one or two drops each feeding. It drops 1/2 cup of salt each time. So I can adjust it to drop 1/2 to 4 cups of salt per day.

Thanks for the compliment!

[Elliott]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14099971#post14099971 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mobert
I actually do check my salinity every few days and adjust the salinity of the top off water accordingly. I have been doing it this way for three years and it gets predictable. For instance after a heavy feeding, I can expect the skimmer to be more active and I would add more salt to the top off container. Not hard to do and I feel that wet skimming has helped control my nitrates.

Yes, all my top off is salty water.

I'm going to try it! thanks :D

do you allow your skimmer to drain directly from the cup to the sewer line? or to a container with auto shut off? I've alway been afraid to allow it to drain without a shut off mechanism since skimmers can go nuts and drain too much, although if you are replacing with salt solution it mitigates the risk. hmm, I'm currenly using Kalk to top off, I don't think it mixes with salt very well... :(

[JMBoehling]

I turn off my Kalk top off when I use this method to do my water change. It takes me approximately 4 hours to get 10 gallons of very wet skimmate. I do it when I know i'll be around the house. It would be cool to set up a auto topoff, maybe with a dedicated skimmer on a timer and multiple float switches to do the water changes for you.

Later,

Jim

[mobert]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14102056#post14102056 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Elliott
I'm going to try it! thanks :D

do you allow your skimmer to drain directly from the cup to the sewer line? or to a container with auto shut off? I've alway been afraid to allow it to drain without a shut off mechanism since skimmers can go nuts and drain too much, although if you are replacing with salt solution it mitigates the risk. hmm, I'm currenly using Kalk to top off, I don't think it mixes with salt very well... :(

I actually use a few safety measures.

The drain is restricted to a 1/4" polyethelene line. If the skimmer were to go crazy, the excess skimate overflows back into the sump but before it does that, the venturi intake for the skimmer pumps would suck the extra back through the pump and in the skimmer again.

The top-off water which comes directly from the RO filter is controlled by two float switches in the sump. In addition, there is a John Guest 1/4 valve that only allows a slow drip through the RO fill tube. There is a Kent float valve in the top-off water mixing container and another one in the sump.

So, worse case scenario is the the skimmer goes crazy and sump gets low on water and air bubbles are blowing in the tank from the return pump. The tank does not turn into a fresh water tank. :)

My top off water also goes through a Kalk container before it gets to the top off container. I'm not sure how effective this but my Calcium levels are acceptable.

[Elliott]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14102218#post14102218 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mobert

My top off water also goes through a Kalk container before it gets to the top off container. I'm not sure how effective this but my Calcium levels are acceptable.

so you are using a salt solution to mix your Kalk? ok, I'm going to try it! :D

I remember reading a post from Randy about some problem related to using a salt soln with Kalk, but hey, it's worth a try, I like your method! :)

[mobert]

A few pictures worth a thousands words:
excuse my mess:
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w228/mliusion/skimmer.jpg
The drain container is like a toilet tank. It doesn't empty until it is full and then drains to the bottom of the drain tube so the 1/4" drain line does not get clogged.

http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w228/mliusion/topoff.jpg
Probably only a mild kalk solution as there is no automatic mixing. I only fill it once a year or so.

[Elliott]

how does your waste container automatically drain when full?

[mobert]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14103862#post14103862 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Elliott
how does your waste container automatically drain when full?

It works by siphon and the siphon does not start until the water height/pressure is near the top of the container. You can see the 1/4" tube with the blue valve on it near the middle of the container. The end of the tube is a few inches off the bottom so it leaves the thick sludgy stuff that settled in the container. I rather do this than risk the 1/4" drain getting plugged.

The tube from the skimmer cup to the container has to be cleaned while the tube from the container to house sewage is perfectly clear.

[Elliott]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14103998#post14103998 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mobert
It works by siphon and the siphon does not start until the water height/pressure is near the top of the container. You can see the 1/4" tube with the blue valve on it near the middle of the container. The end of the tube is a few inches off the bottom so it leaves the thick sludgy stuff that settled in the container. I rather do this than risk the 1/4" drain getting plugged.

The tube from the skimmer cup to the container has to be cleaned while the tube from the container to house sewage is perfectly clear.

if you are replacing your evaporative water this way (replacing fresh with salt water) how do you prevent hypersalinity?

[mobert]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14114504#post14114504 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Elliott
if you are replacing your evaporative water this way (replacing fresh with salt water) how do you prevent hypersalinity?
replace with 1.022 instead of 1.026
adjust according to tank s.g.

[Elliott]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14116313#post14116313 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mobert
replace with 1.022 instead of 1.026
adjust according to tank s.g.

well, you really have me thinking :D

is there a salinity monitor/controller out there that will turn on/off a device such as your pond feeder? My salt water pool has a digital device that tells me when to add or subtract salt but does not control another device.

I'm thinking of creating a system similar to yours. I'm planning a little different skimmer shut of device when it goes nuts, still in planning stage. I will use a separate kalk drip connected to a RO reservoir controlled by my acII ph controller to avoid the precipitation that occurs with kalk and sea water:http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=14122447#post14122447

will update as the plan solidifies :)

[mobert]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14122661#post14122661 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Elliott
well, you really have me thinking :D

is there a salinity monitor/controller out there that will turn on/off a device such as your pond feeder? My salt water pool has a digital device that tells me when to add or subtract salt but does not control another device.

I'm thinking of creating a system similar to yours. I'm planning a little different skimmer shut of device when it goes nuts, still in planning stage. I will use a separate kalk drip connected to a RO reservoir controlled by my acII ph controller to avoid the precipitation that occurs with kalk and sea water:http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=14122447#post14122447

will update as the plan solidifies :)

I think there is an aquacontroller that measues s.g. and controlls devices but on the other hand, I may have to go back to manually adding a cup or two of salt every night as the Koi feeder has been crusting up and malfunctioning sitting over the open water. I will try raising it higher or running one of the cabinet fans more.

I don't have much precipitation probably because my unmixed Kalk mixture is very dilute and my salt is not full strength. My tank inhabitants do not require much additional calcium other than what is supplied by the water changes.

[Elliott]

could always get a dialyseas unit by seavisions I guess

[mobert]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14123975#post14123975 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Elliott
could always get a dialyseas unit by seavisions I guess
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-04/pr/index.php

sometimes the maintenance on all these fancy techno machines is more work than scooping a cup or two of salt every so often.

[Elliott]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14124769#post14124769 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mobert
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-04/pr/index.php

sometimes the maintenance on all these fancy techno machines is more work than scooping a cup or two of salt every so often.

my thoughts exactly, "simple stupid" works for me :D

[CleveYank]

This Idea is so obvious and simple it's ellusive. Brings all kinds of brainstorming for my extra monster skimmer I have laying around.
Very Cool. ;)

[Elliott]

update:
I now have an 80g sea water reservoir as my top off. I am skimming wet, about 5g per day or 150g per month. I have about 500g total system volume. I am already noticing the ORP climb from 350 to 380 ave in just a few days. What I like the most is not having to clean my skimmer! I have not solved the puzzle how to automatically turn down the skimmer when it goes nuts, there must be a simple solution, help? As for Kalk, I'm constantly dripping very slowly from a 40g reservoir.

[JMBoehling]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14141867#post14141867 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Elliott
update:
I now have an 80g sea water reservoir as my top off. I am skimming wet, about 5g per day or 150g per month. I have about 500g total system volume. I am already noticing the ORP climb from 350 to 380 ave in just a few days. What I like the most is not having to clean my skimmer! I have not solved the puzzle how to automatically turn down the skimmer when it goes nuts, there must be a simple solution, help? As for Kalk, I'm constantly dripping very slowly from a 40g reservoir.

It would be cool to have a float switch on a 5 gallon resevoir collecting the wet skimmate. Connect the float switch to your skimmer. If your skimmer goes nuts, it will shut off the skimmer at 5 gallons. You then need to set a pump to drain the bucket every 24 hours as well.

Just a thought!

Jim

[Elliott]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14141925#post14141925 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JMBoehling
It would be cool to have a float switch on a 5 gallon resevoir collecting the wet skimmate. Connect the float switch to your skimmer. If your skimmer goes nuts, it will shut off the skimmer at 5 gallons. You then need to set a pump to drain the bucket every 24 hours as well.

Just a thought!

Jim

good thought! you could even have a slow drain on the bucket so it would allow the skimmer to run but not so fast as to fill the bucket and trip the switch, and if it did once the bucket drains down a little it would turn the skimmer pump back on, I'm running a PanWorld 250 that draws 400 amps so I need to obtain an appropriately sized float switch

[mobert]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14141954#post14141954 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Elliott
good thought! you could even have a slow drain on the bucket so it would allow the skimmer to run but not so fast as to fill the bucket and trip the switch, and if it did once the bucket drains down a little it would turn the skimmer pump back on, I'm running a PanWorld 250 that draws 400 amps so I need to obtain an appropriately sized float switch

That is why I have a 1/4" drain. It doesn't start emptying till it is full and it can only drain what a 1/4" drain can handle. If it were to get too full it backs up to my skimmer cup which fills up and the skimmer pump's venturi intake recirculates what is in the cup----which is ok because the skimmer had gone crazy and it is not too funky in the cup.

[Elliott]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14142564#post14142564 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mobert
That is why I have a 1/4" drain. It doesn't start emptying till it is full and it can only drain what a 1/4" drain can handle. If it were to get too full it backs up to my skimmer cup which fills up and the skimmer pump's venturi intake recirculates what is in the cup----which is ok because the skimmer had gone crazy and it is not too funky in the cup.

I'm running a large external Beckett skimmer so if the cup backs up it runs out all over my equipment room, there are advantages in having an internal skimmer!

I can't find a float switch/relay that can handle a 400w pump, not sure I want to turn the pump on and off anyway, I think I'll just keep an eye on things, it can handle 80g of going "nuts" right now without causing too many problems, that's probably enough you think?

[mobert]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14142640#post14142640 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Elliott
I'm running a large external Beckett skimmer so if the cup backs up it runs out all over my equipment room, there are advantages in having an internal skimmer!

I can't find a float switch/relay that can handle a 400w pump, not sure I want to turn the pump on and off anyway, I think I'll just keep an eye on things, it can handle 80g of going "nuts" right now without causing too many problems, that's probably enough you think?

Mine is external also. So your skimmer pumps have no venturi intake??

I also drilled a 3/4" drain in the skimmer cup with a standpipe so it only is used when the cup is full and it drains back into the sump.

[Elliott]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14142687#post14142687 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mobert
Mine is external also. So your skimmer pumps have no venturi intake??

I also drilled a 3/4" drain in the skimmer cup with a standpipe so it only is used when the cup is full and it drains back into the sump.

no, I'm running a Pan World 250, no venturi, the dual Beckett's create considerable bubble/foam without the need for a venturi, I guess I could drill a hole high up in the skimmer cup and run a line down to the skimmer body but I'd rather not mess with the skimmer if possible, trying to come up with a simple solution.

How about have the skimmer cup drain to the side of an open container, entering the container near the top. Let's say there is a small hole near the bottom that allows for a slow drain of skimmate. If the skimmer goes nuts and overcomes the drain the water will rise above the skimmer drain and occlude the orifice, shutting off the air and shutting down the skimmer, much like the ping pong ball does in the waste container, think it would work? then when the skimmer calmed down the container would drain and allow the skimmer to function normally...

would it work?

[CleveYank]

Yes it will work


I've got a 7 foot high dual venturi monster that the prior owner complained of overflows. I took skimmate gallon jug and placed venturi inputs pointing down into yet at the top of the gallon jug by zip ties and old powerhead bracket and when it got to that point no more bubbles. The test worked like a charm.

Your's should shut off the air input the same when it gets full as you describe.

[Elliott]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14142842#post14142842 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by CleveYank
Yes it will work


I've got a 7 foot high dual venturi monster that the prior owner complained of overflows. I took skimmate gallon jug and placed venturi inputs pointing down into yet at the top of the gallon jug by zip ties and old powerhead bracket and when it got to that point no more bubbles. The test worked like a charm.

Your's should shut off the air input the same when it gets full as you describe.

ok, I'm going to try it! thanks

mobert: thanks for all the ideas, I'm loving not having to clean my skimmer every few days!

now I'll have to find a way to block the smell of the open skimmate container

[Konadog]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14102218#post14102218 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mobert
... the venturi intake for the skimmer pumps would suck the extra back through the pump and in the skimmer again. If I understand this statement and this picture http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w228/mliusion/skimmer.jpg You are pulling your skimmer air from inside your collection cup. Do you notice any difference in your skimmer bubble size or density "vs" pulling your air from outside? And for the bigger question, does this reduce the "nog smell" while the skimmer is running? This could make my wife very happy :D

Wouldn't your skimmer basically shut down anyways if the cup filled up enough for the intake to start sucking skimmate, kinda self regulating?

[mobert]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14142761#post14142761 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Elliott
How about have the skimmer cup drain to the side of an open container, entering the container near the top. Let's say there is a small hole near the bottom that allows for a slow drain of skimmate. If the skimmer goes nuts and overcomes the drain the water will rise above the skimmer drain and occlude the orifice, shutting off the air and shutting down the skimmer, much like the ping pong ball does in the waste container, think it would work? then when the skimmer calmed down the container would drain and allow the skimmer to function normally...

would it work?

if your drain from the skimmer cup to the container is too small it will not burp the air out and just stop flowing. If you don't screw the top back on tight after cleaning it could overflow. Otherwise it should work.

I'm not sure a vented container would not overflow. My container is vented with a 1/4" tube to above the skimmer cup height.

[mobert]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14142922#post14142922 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Elliott

now I'll have to find a way to block the smell of the open skimmate container

Your skimmate container should now be closed so no smell.

[mobert]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14143019#post14143019 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Konadog
You are pulling your skimmer air from inside your collection cup. Do you notice any difference in your skimmer bubble size or density "vs" pulling your air from outside? And for the bigger question, does this reduce the "nog smell" while the skimmer is running? This could make my wife very happy :D

Wouldn't your skimmer basically shut down anyways if the cup filled up enough for the intake to start sucking skimmate, kinda self regulating?

No difference in skimmer bubbles. I had a lifereef skimmer prior to the Euroreef and it was designed to draw from inside the skimmer cup. Check out their website and their reasons for doing this:
http://lifereef.com/frame.html
So.....no smell and no venturi sucking noise.
So yes, the skimmer would suck skimmate and re gurgitate. Pretty much the funk just goes round and round the skimmer if the cup gets too full and will automatically start up again when the drain catches up.

This is a partial quote from their description of their protein skimmer:
NO SALT-CLOGGED VENTURI, EVER! our skimmer utilizes a self-cleaning venturi. (nozzle injected and other venturi skimmers clog and require maintenance)
NO SUCKING NOISES, silent operation, no injector nozzle (Becketts) noise, no needle-wheel hum and vibration.
NO EXCESS BUBBLES in your sump!
NO constant adjustments, the self-cleaning venturi prevents water level fluctuations.
NO cup overflow, the self-cleaning venturi prevents the cup from overflowing.
NO special waste collector required, our cup is a collection cup, not a diverter cup.
NO "humming" or vibration noise as in needle-wheel designs or hard-mount pumps on the skimmer body.
NO ERRATIC PERFORMANCE, the self-cleaning venturi maintains a stable water level and skimming.
NO EXCESSIVE pipes, valves, tubes, contraptions, or "air sucking devices" hanging all over the skimmer.

[Elliott]

mobert: I was thinking of leaving the container open and allowing the level to rise when the skimmate overcomes the drain, however I like your idea better. If the container has a lid then when the drain is overwhelmed it will immediately occlude and shut the skimmer down, much like the ping pong ball. And with a lid, less smell. I will do some trials and report back, thanks

[CleveYank]

I agree with the sealed type as well.

After I get my new build up and in place I have 2 of these sealed skimmate resivoirs to build, a carbon filter for top(air venting out of skimmer top) and bottom output(skimmer water discharge) of large skimmer I refer to as the fire hydraunt 1 to remove ozone from air and water outputs, Kalk reactor, and new dual chamber 6 22 Ca reactors, and two dual chamber nitrate filters for ehiem glass media. A trip to US Plastics for lots of acrylic is in my near future.

This skimming waterchange jazz has opened a new door for an automated water change Idea if I can get my hands on the right soliniod (corrosive chemical liquid type) and some valving.


Oh yeah, along with this whole testing for venturi shutoff, I've been setting up for a RO/DI water stream to be shot into the venturis to keep them clean. On my timer based gravity setup which uses those little blue pumps which I have running through pump 100ml of fresh RO/DI water though a tee that suck the water through venturis to keep everything running smoothly to prevent clogging due to salt buildup. My HSA becket will do it too but it needs alot more water to keep things the same and the cheap doser doesn't pump enough so a check valved low powerhead feeding air input may be required. But that's another test I've not gotten to yet. ;)

[JMBoehling]

Thanks to everyone that chimed in.. I've made a couple changes to my reef because of your great feedback. I now have a continous water change set up. I am now wet skimming 1 gallon a day water changes. All evaporation and Kalk is dosed with a simple drip from a 5 gallon bucket. The Salt Water is replaced via a Float Valve. (I may change this out in a few weeks for a Float Switch and Pump, as I have a feeling the Saltwater will clog up things pretty quickly)

Here are a few pics of my ghetto setup. Pardon the nasty sump.

http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i122/JMBoehling/SkimmerWaterChangeA.jpg

http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i122/JMBoehling/SkimmerWaterChangeB.jpg

Thanks again everyone. I really like this setup.

Jim

[mobert]

i use both a kent float valve and two float switches (hi and low). it takes a long time to clog.

[JMBoehling]

Update:

Working perfectly. I've got my skimmer pulling about 1.5 gallons a day. All Corals and fish seem to be very happy!

Highly recommend this set up to everyone. I think my water parameters will stay much more consistant this way as well. No major ALK and PH spikes with water changes now.

Jim

[Elliott]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14223652#post14223652 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JMBoehling
Update:

Working perfectly. I've got my skimmer pulling about 1.5 gallons a day. All Corals and fish seem to be very happy!

Highly recommend this set up to everyone. I think my water parameters will stay much more consistant this way as well. No major ALK and PH spikes with water changes now.

Jim

ditto :D

[Konadog]

This thread has been nominated for Thread of the Month!

Please take a moment to read each of the nominated threads and vote here:

February's Thread of the Month (http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1561825)

[Elliott]

well deserved, this technique has been the single best thing I have done for my reef tank, water quality is significantly higher and much more stable.

[Marklu]

Okay, somebody should write a simple step by step guide to this, I'm having trouble wading through this info, but am quite interested!

[Elliott]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14255901#post14255901 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Marklu
Okay, somebody should write a simple step by step guide to this, I'm having trouble wading through this info, but am quite interested!

In theory it's simple, just turn your skimmer up a bit so it pulls a gallon or two each day and replace it with newly mixed seawater. I have an 80g reservoir with a submersible pump, controlled by a float switch in my sump, so as the skimmer pulls more skimmate it activates the float switch and replenishes the lost volume with new seawater. The benefit is you are replacing skimmate, which has the highest density of waste, with fresh seawater. Over time this results in much higher water quality compared to standard water changes.

[chieuxuan]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14141954#post14141954 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Elliott
good thought! you could even have a slow drain on the bucket so it would allow the skimmer to run but not so fast as to fill the bucket and trip the switch, and if it did once the bucket drains down a little it would turn the skimmer pump back on, I'm running a PanWorld 250 that draws 400 amps so I need to obtain an appropriately sized float switch

Yes, there is float switch that can handle that wattage!!! (http://www.pumpbiz.com/products/index.cfm?fuseaction=accessory_detail&product_id=13143) :D

[Marklu]

Elliot - I understand that part. But the part i'm having trouble with is evaporation. I guess you should lower the s.g. of the resovoir water? Is there anyway that you could figure out exactly what it should be, or is kind of a guessing game?

[JMBoehling]

I drip Kalk for my topoff. Assuming you have an idea of how much water evaporates in a day, I set my kalk to drip at a rate equal to my evap rate (approximately). For my setup it is 1 drip per second.

My fresh Saltwater is set on my float valve and is replaced equal to that which is skimmed out. I do check my salinity once a week to make sure things are in check.

Hope this helps!

Jim

[Elliott]

chieuxuan, thanks for the link

Marklu, as mentioned above by JMBoehling , I drip Kalk in RO at a rate approximate to my evaporation with a dosing pump, so I can adjust my s.g. by adjusting the skimmer and/or Kalk drip, so far it's been real easy

[Marklu]

Hmm, so right now i'm using a float valve for my kalk top off, but i should use it for my fresh saltwater and get a dosing pump for kalk. Got it now, thanks a lot guys! I also need to install a drain on my skimmer...

[Jerm77]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14102401#post14102401 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mobert
A few pictures worth a thousands words:


mobert,

I'm trying to figure out how your "flush" works on your drain container.
can you try to explain it again for me please?

http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n287/jerm77/skimmer.jpg


also can you take a pic of your skimmer cup? I want to see where your venturi and drain container vents are going.

[mobert]

yes, just blue tape
yes drilled in the middle and the
tube extends down to 2" off the bottom so that it leaves the really thick sludgy stuff that has settled behind.

[Jerm77]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14268580#post14268580 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mobert
yes, just blue tape
yes drilled in the middle and the
tube extends down to 2" off the bottom so that it leaves the really thick sludgy stuff that has settled behind.

thank you.

[mobert]

the venturi air intake I just drilled through the top of the skimmer lid and stuck the tube in so that the end is just below the stand pipe overflow to the sump. Vent tube for the drain container just needs to be above the skimmer cup so that if it were to fill up the liquid would not overflow in my cabinet. It can be stuck in through a hole in the skimmer lid also to contain any odor.

[Jerm77]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14268606#post14268606 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mobert
Vent tube for the drain container just needs to be above the skimmer cup

just to clarify, when you say above the cup, do you mean the tube is vented into the cup at the highest point?

[mobert]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14272665#post14272665 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Jerm77
just to clarify, when you say above the cup, do you mean the tube is vented into the cup at the highest point?

The tube must be vented at a point where it would cause the skimmer to stop working. Imagine if your regular skimmer went crazy. If the cup were to fill up, what happens? The skimmer cup just overflows back into the skimmer. So my drain container is vented so that if the skimmer were to go crazy, the drain container fills up and backs up in the the skimmer cup. If the vent was lower than the skimmer cup, it would fill up and overflow out of the vent opening----same as if the drain container was just an open container.

[Jerm77]

ok understood.

sorry for hijacking the thread, but this is probably one of the most innovative
things I've seen and I was looking to try and do something like this myself.

I promise to make a diagram once I fully understand what you've done mobert.
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14268606#post14268606 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mobert

the venturi air intake I just drilled through the top of the skimmer lid and stuck the tube in so that the end is just below the stand pipe overflow to the sump.

in the event of the skimmer going nuts, the stand pipe acts as an overflow, right?
so if the venturi intake was below the overflow "line", wouldn't this continue to
make the skimmer go nuts untill the venturi intake gets more air rather than water?

[mobert]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14273128#post14273128 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Jerm77
in the event of the skimmer going nuts, the stand pipe acts as an overflow, right?
so if the venturi intake was below the overflow "line", wouldn't this continue to
make the skimmer go nuts untill the venturi intake gets more air rather than water?

when the skimmer sucks fluid instead of air, it stops making bubbles and stops working. I put it below the standpipe as this is a better scenario than skimmer cup overflowing into the sump.

Here are a couple of quick pictures.

Another overall shot showing the vent:
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w228/mliusion/skimmer-1.jpg

The skimmer cup with the intake for my two venturi pumps going in the lid on the left. The black tape is so I know how far in the cup to push the tubes. the center is the stand pipe that goes to the sump and to the right of it is the 1/4" drain to the collection container that then goes to house sewage. I have to put a pipe cleaner in the 1/4" drain every so often as it can clog up:
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w228/mliusion/skimmercup.jpg
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w228/mliusion/standpipe.jpg

Here is a top view of my collection container with the standpipe drain to sump next to it:
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w228/mliusion/drains.jpg

Here is a look at the collection container. See how clean the 1/4" polyethelene line to house sewage is? It has never been cleaned in the years it has been in use:
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w228/mliusion/collection.jpg

Hope this helps.

[Traill]

I need a little help understanding this. Does a skimmer that has a lot of water running through it skim better or more than one that doesn't? I would imagine wet skimmate would just be a diluted version of the other stuff. So, if I empty the collection cup periodically, and do water changes in the usual way, I should be removing the same amount of stuff. It seems to me that the advantage of this method is in the automation, and in the frequency of the water change, rather than that it is removing more DOCs than the other method. Y/N?

[Traill]

I need help understanding this. Does wet skimmate have more DOCs than the less wet variety? If I clean my skimmer cup periodically, and do water changes in the usual way, I would think I'm pulling out the same amount of stuff as with this method. Y/N? In either case, it's pretty cool that I could eliminate manual water changes and not have to clean the skimmer cup. I'm just unclear whether there's any benefit in terms of overall tank health. Maybe the benefit is in the slow, but frequent water change?

[downhillbiker]

i use this method....kindof.....i have 2 homemade foods that i feed my reef. one is using cyclopeze, mysids, rotifers, and oyster eggs. the other has all of those, plus daphnia, G/R/B algae sheets, raw shrimp, clams, oysters, squid, eggplant peels, garlic, and more.

basically i feed the first one every other day alternating with the second one. the second one causes the skimmate to turn very slimy and sticky, and overflow like crazy. this makes the skimmer overflow about 2-3 gallons of wet skimmate. i dont adjust it, or change anything. the food just makes it run wet.

as far as real water changes i haven't done one in over 2 months. i think i might do one today. i'm probably due.

[mobert]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14283670#post14283670 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Traill
I need help understanding this. Does wet skimmate have more DOCs than the less wet variety? If I clean my skimmer cup periodically, and do water changes in the usual way, I would think I'm pulling out the same amount of stuff as with this method. Y/N? In either case, it's pretty cool that I could eliminate manual water changes and not have to clean the skimmer cup. I'm just unclear whether there's any benefit in terms of overall tank health. Maybe the benefit is in the slow, but frequent water change?

I fought high nitrates (in the 60 to 70's range) for over six months. I added a deep sand bed refugium with chaeto and did regular water changes. I think wet skimming is the most helpful thing I do to bring the nitrates down.

[mobert]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14283670#post14283670 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Traill
I need help understanding this. Does wet skimmate have more DOCs than the less wet variety? If I clean my skimmer cup periodically, and do water changes in the usual way, I would think I'm pulling out the same amount of stuff as with this method. Y/N? In either case, it's pretty cool that I could eliminate manual water changes and not have to clean the skimmer cup. I'm just unclear whether there's any benefit in terms of overall tank health. Maybe the benefit is in the slow, but frequent water change?

Three years ago, I fought high nitrates (in the 60 to 70's range) for over six months. I added a deep sand bed refugium with chaeto and did regular water changes. The nitrates didn't go down until I started wet skimming.

I periodically saturate the tank with plankton size food and I think wet skimming is the most helpful thing I do that keeps the nitrates down.

[JMBoehling]

A little update and tweak in my design:

Took one other idea from you guys and removed the standpipe from my 5gallon collection bucket. I ran my venturi to my 5 gallon collection bucket. When the water rises to the venturi is shuts down my skimmer untill I get home to dump it.

Here's a picture showing my 5 Gallon bucket with the drain from my collection cup

http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i122/JMBoehling/P2030023.jpg

Here's a picture with the top off showing my skimmer venturi airline and regulator.

http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i122/JMBoehling/P2030022.jpg

A side note:

I started dosing Vitamin C 2 days ago.. Like any additives, watch your skimmer as they will skim much more when you add the VC and other products to your reef. I had to turn it way down to make it skim around 1 1/2 gallons a day. I've got it dialed in and she is working like a champ.

Later,

Jim

[mobert]

Jim, make sure when the power is off to your skimmer that the water doesn't drain out of your venturi line. Mine will if the intake is not higher than the sump water level.

[JMBoehling]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14319659#post14319659 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mobert
Jim, make sure when the power is off to your skimmer that the water doesn't drain out of your venturi line. Mine will if the intake is not higher than the sump water level.

Great point. My pump is below the venturi line...:thumbsup:

Thanks,

Jim

[mobert]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14319719#post14319719 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JMBoehling
Great point. My pump is below the venturi line...:thumbsup:

Thanks,

Jim

Vernturi line has to be ABOVE the sump/skimmer body WATER line when the power is out.

Just want to make sure nobody floods out there home. Test and re-test all possible scenarios.

[mobert]

Jim, I just reviewed your pictures and now see that your skimmer sits inside your sump and and venturi line has to go up over the edge of the sump before going to your drain container. Looks like you are good. My skimmer sits out in the open and water would just drain out of the venturi intake if it were open below the water line.

[JMBoehling]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14320720#post14320720 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mobert
Jim, I just reviewed your pictures and now see that your skimmer sits inside your sump and and venturi line has to go up over the edge of the sump before going to your drain container. Looks like you are good. My skimmer sits out in the open and water would just drain out of the venturi intake if it were open below the water line.

You are correct. My venturi line that enters my collection bucket is above the water line in my skimmer neck, so no back siphon worries.

Thanks,

Jim

[2 TAZ]

I had a cheaper Nautulis skimmer on a 200 gal. system that no matter how I adjusted it I would never get 10 gallons a week from, Changed to a MRC skimmer and can get 10 gallons in a few hours or less, depending on how I adjusted it, I try to do weekly water changes in addition to about 5 gallons of wet skimmate per week or more, Having it collect in a measurable container is a must though.

[chieuxuan]

does anybody have the formula to calculate the volumn?? not talking about tank volumn but ROUNDED or CIRCLE?? thanks

[JMBoehling]

Woot! Thanks to all for making this Thread of the Month! My reef has never looked better using this setup! I am not using any GAC, GFO, etc , just continuous water changes and wet skimming. (I am playing with Vitamin C right now and think I like that as well :) )

Jim

[joeyvu]

This is very interesting thread and interesting idea. what do you guys think about adding calculated fresh salt water into the sump near the return line slowly by a timed pump in an hour or so and this will eventually increases water level in the sump. When water level increase, the skimmer will skim wetter, as it happen by accident with me when I add too much of salt water during WC. And ofcourse one will need to have their skimmer collection waste hooked up to extra collection waste. I will try to see if it works for me. yet I have to hook my skimmer to extra waste collector.

[midgetwaiter]

This is a cool idea and I think I have a way to set it up that's pretty simple and safe. I'd appreciate everyone taking a look in case I'm missing something.

I have an ASM G-2 skimmer so I'll have to add a drain to the cup. The tank is in the basement and the drain line for the upstairs toilet is about 6 feet away so I'm going to tap into that somehow. I have a buddy who's a plumber so I will ask him how to do that properly.

I have a 10g barrel that I use to do top ups now via a Tsunami ATO and an aqualifter. Once I get the drain in I could just fire it up with SW in the top up but I'd like an automatic way to shut down the skimmer when I run out of make up water so I thought of this:

Tsunami Pump Protector (http://www.championlighting.com/product.php?productid=17526&cat=0&page=1)

This is a Tsunami ATO with the relay wired backwards so that when the water level drops below the sensor it shuts down whatever is plugged into it. I figure that if I put the sensor in the bottom of my top off barrel and plug my skimmer pump into that there is no way for it to drain my sump unless the sensor fails.

Will that work?

[Elliott]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14357780#post14357780 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by midgetwaiter
This is a cool idea and I think I have a way to set it up that's pretty simple and safe. I'd appreciate everyone taking a look in case I'm missing something.

I have an ASM G-2 skimmer so I'll have to add a drain to the cup. The tank is in the basement and the drain line for the upstairs toilet is about 6 feet away so I'm going to tap into that somehow. I have a buddy who's a plumber so I will ask him how to do that properly.

I have a 10g barrel that I use to do top ups now via a Tsunami ATO and an aqualifter. Once I get the drain in I could just fire it up with SW in the top up but I'd like an automatic way to shut down the skimmer when I run out of make up water so I thought of this:

Tsunami Pump Protector (http://www.championlighting.com/product.php?productid=17526&cat=0&page=1)

This is a Tsunami ATO with the relay wired backwards so that when the water level drops below the sensor it shuts down whatever is plugged into it. I figure that if I put the sensor in the bottom of my top off barrel and plug my skimmer pump into that there is no way for it to drain my sump unless the sensor fails.

Will that work?

yes it will work, however make sure the relay on that switch can handle the load requirement of your skimmer pump. If not, there is a link higher up in this thread to a heavy duty switch

[rsisman]

I have an ASM G-2 skimmer so I'll have to add a drain to the cup. The tank is in the basement and the drain line for the upstairs toilet is about 6 feet away so I'm going to tap into that somehow. I have a buddy who's a plumber so I will ask him how to do that properly.


I wouldnt just tap into the house drain unless you setup some sort of P-trap. If you do not setup a proper P-trap you will let dangerous gasses from the sewer to go inside your home.

[witfull]

ive been doing the wet skim for a long time and i found an easier way to never have to worry about skimmer overflows or stinky skimate in the house. i drilled a 3/4"OD hole through the wall about 3 inches above ground level. then ran the skimmer cup drain line though the wall and outside. skimmate runs harmlessly into the side yard. no effect on plant life. its been running for yrs this way.

[innercirclepro]

im going to try the wetter skimate and see how it affects my salinity.

[ozzmosis]

This is a very interesting idea! I like the simplicity of it and I can see how it could have it's advantages if done correctly. I'm getting ready to upgrade to an Austin Oceans Foaminator Max 4200 (dual beckett skimmer) on my 120 gal tank. I think that I will have no problems putting this idea into action on my tank. The are a few things to figure out of course. 1)How much water evaporates daily out of the tank so that a R/O drip could be implemented? 2)How strong to mix the salt water for top-off from the skimming? I guess the questions that I have for you guys are this. If, topping off seperate for evaporation and for what the skimmer takes out, would you want to mix the salt water to full content 1.026? Or does a skimmer take out salt water at full content when skimming wet? Any help on these questions would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Chris

[Elliott]

Hi Chris,
Though I have not measured myself, I've read here on RC that skimmate is comparable in salinity to the tank, so I mix my reservoir to the same salinity. You can use either the reservoir salinity or the RO/DI drip rate to control the tank's salinity. Since I use a dosing pump to drip RO/DI it's easier for me to adjust the rate, if salinity rises I increase the rate to adjust it down and vice versa.
By the way my ORP has gone up considerably since I started this technique. Also, I love not having to clean my skimmer cup very often. :D
Elliott

[ozzmosis]

Very nice! I was thinking that it would be close to a normal mixture, but never tested it. So, I wasn't sure. Thanks for the reply.

[JMBoehling]

Update:

This new setup has finally got my DOC's down low enough to where my skimmer will run idle until there is something in the water column to remove. Never (in 5 years of running this skimmer on my tank) has this skimmer run idle, not producing skimmate. This is good stuff ;)

Jim

[convict3]

this is a great thread i have a question that is along the same line i m setting up a 75 gal reef with a octo extreme 200 in a 20 gal sump/refugium. i have 2-2 gallon container one will be filled with clean saltwater and connected to my ato. the other will be for the skimmer to skim into. i hope to get 2 gal of wet skimmate a day. in one month i will almost completed a 80% water change, 2 gallons at a time. evaporated water will hve to monitored manually.

i live in a apartment so i have to dump the collection cup every day
sorry for the mini highjack

[JMBoehling]

convict3

My saltwater is replaced via a float valve connected to a 5 gallon bucket of fresh saltwater

Evaporation is replaced via a bucket of freshwater mixed with Kalk and set to drip at approximately 1 drip per second. You need to play around with the drip rate to get this dialed in.

Just remember, your Saltwater replacement should equal the rate that your wet skimmate is removed. You'll want to check your reefs salinity every few days to make sure it is correct untill you get everything dialed in.

Hope this helps.

Jim

[CoRPS]

Anyone have suggestions for people who skim with HOB skimmers? This sounds great and I can't believe I never thought to do it!

[Herpervet]

One question: The venturi is plumbed inside the collection cup or collection bucket.

Once it starts sucking water it shuts down the skimmer?

That's not what happens with my Warner Marine skimmer AS300

When the venturi starts to suck water instead of air then there is more water going through the skimmer and the water level rises quickly overflowing the collection cup.

Am I missing something? Does this require a recirculating skimmer to work?

If the skimmer is a recirculating model then the volume of water flowing into the skimmer isn't dependent on the amount of air going into the venturi. Right?

[Aimforever]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14468256#post14468256 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Herpervet
One question: The venturi is plumbed inside the collection cup or collection bucket.

Once it starts sucking water it shuts down the skimmer?

That's not what happens with my Warner Marine skimmer AS300

When the venturi starts to suck water instead of air then there is more water going through the skimmer and the water level rises quickly overflowing the collection cup.

Am I missing something? Does this require a recirculating skimmer to work?

If the skimmer is a recirculating model then the volume of water flowing into the skimmer isn't dependent on the amount of air going into the venturi. Right?

That sounds right to me. I thought the same thing when I read through this thread - they must be using recirculating skimmers. I know from experience if anything blocks airflow to my BK-mini (non-recirculating) it will quickly fill with water and start overflowing a few hundred GPH at the collection cup. :eek1:

[Herpervet]

Actually I think it is the gate valve that is the problem.

If you stick the venturi tube in water on an ASM G-3 with a stand pipe it does indeed shut the skimmer down and the excess water flow exits the stand pipe.

My Warner Marine skimmer has a gate valve and the water flow is restricted so it can't escape when the extra water flows into the skimmer so it overflows.

[SirVilhelm]

Wow great thread! It's innovation like this that keeps pushing our hobby forward, before long this will become standard practice!

Anyway, I want to dive in and start doing this, I am running a Coralife Super Skimmer 220 on my 80 gal. Anyone try doing this with the Coralife?

I am having a hard time trying to figure out how to balance water replenishment. During summer I have to refill my 5 gal auto-topoff tank several times a week but now in the winter months that same 5 gal container will last a week or more. So I guess with this setup you just take a stab in the dark on how much fresh water you should be replenishing vs salt?

Does anyone know if Neptune Systems makes a salinity prob for the AquaController 3?

edit: I would never have found this thread if it wasn't for Thread of the Month, awesome.

[Jerm77]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14588502#post14588502 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by SirVilhelm

Does anyone know if Neptune Systems makes a salinity prob for the AquaController 3?

its called a conductivity probe

[90g-reefer]

Could I fill My ATO with diluted NSW (taking into account evap) and let my skimmer drain into a collection setup. Would that work?

[Konadog]

Erik, I don't see why you couldn't do it that way, but you would need to constantly monitor your salinity and make adjustments as needed. It's much easier to just replace what's removed by your skimmer with the correct salinity water.

and
[welcome]

[90g-reefer]

So if I just test my skimmate and match the salinity to that I should be ok?

[Konadog]

Yes, In theory, the skimmate salinity should be the same as your tank water.

The difference in replacing skimmate water is it should be the same salinity as your tank water. Evaporation water is pure water, no salt. What ever way you chose to do it, check you salinity daily to learn how your doing with water replacement, and adjust accordingly.

[SirVilhelm]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14589097#post14589097 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Jerm77
its called a conductivity probe

Could someone who had the Neptune system running a float switch and conductivity probe setup a system that when the float switch activates the Neptune system will read the conductivity then activate either a fresh water pump or SW pump accordingly?

[waldomas]

I think they are saying that it is much simpler to replace skimmate w/ mixed saltwater at the same SG as your tank (activated by float valve), and replace evaporation w/ freash R/O water via conductivity probe.

[waldomas]

I am unfamiliar w/ conductivity probes, and am wondering if the above scenereo is feasible. Are they reliable enough?
I guess you can make the "salinity stabilizer" fill tube small enough to help avoid a catastrophy and still keep up its job.

Anyone have a setup like this?

Anyone monitor w/ a conductivity probe?

[luther1200]

I think if I raised the level in my skimmer that much I would be skimming pretty much straight water. Is that what you guys mean? I have done it before when I first set it up, it was skimming way to much and overflowed my 1g external reservoir I use. I could definitely get the volume you guys talk about but what is the advantage. At that point isn't it straight water?

[nnahler]

So how have your testing parameters changed doing this method of water changes? Any noticeable drops in Nitrates?

[mobert]

For me, wet skimming was the only way I was able to lower my nitrates. I am now also wet skimming in my Bio-cube 29 gallon. I drilled the collection cup on the CPR SR3 with a 1/4" line and have it draining to an exterior one gallon container. Since this skimmer sits in the rear section of the tank, wet skimming is accomplished by adding a couple of cups of salt water to the tank, thereby raising the water level. This is great, I pour in clear water and out comes yellow water. It works amazingly well. The wet skimming automatically goes back to regular skimming as the water level goes back down. I am still tweaking the automatic top off of fresh water but this tank doesn't remember the last time it was this clean. The water actually sparkles now.

[nnahler]

I think I will have to start experimenting with this method...it has ALWAYS made sense to me, I just have never tried it..Thanks for the info:)

[SWINGRRRR]

This is very interesting, as already stated. I think you can make an AC Pro do the program.
FWP-Fresh water pump
SWP-Salt Water pump
Cond- Conductivity (S.G)
If Cond > 53.0 then FWP ON
If Cond < 52.9 then FWP OFF
If Cond < 53.0 then SWP ON
If Cond < 52.9 then SWP OFF


I’m at work and can’t run it through the simulator, but I think that’s a good program. Maybe someone can check it over for me. I would run the pumps off a double float switch/ relay. This is how I do my ATO now dependant on pH though. Of course you need the most expensive Aqua controller to do any of this.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I know some folks do it, but I generally recommend against "controlling" salinity. If you get an air bubble between the electrodes, or you get deposits of calcium carbonate or algae growths, etc, the conductivity will read falsely low, and you may end up driving the salinity excessively high without even knowing it.

So while I like conductivity to measure salinity, I do not recommend leaving the probe in the water 24/7, nor would I allow automatic adjustments based on the reading. :)

[Elliott]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14679684#post14679684 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Randy Holmes-Farley
I know some folks do it, but I generally recommend against "controlling" salinity. If you get an air bubble between the electrodes, or you get deposits of calcium carbonate or algae growths, etc, the conductivity will read falsely low, and you may end up driving the salinity excessively high without even knowing it.

So while I like conductivity to measure salinity, I do not recommend leaving the probe in the water 24/7, nor would I allow automatic adjustments based on the reading. :)

I agree, the pinpoint salinity monitor I use is very accurate but I must often play with it when I know it's off, usually way too low, I move the probe a bit to get the correct reading, would not rely on it for controlling pumps, etc.

[shovel]

interisting

[mobert]

This is what my water going in on the right and out on the left looks like.
I drip the clear water in and it raises the water level in the tank where the CPR SR3 is in the back of my Biocube29 and the waste water drips out into the container on the left. Looks like a pretty good water change to me.
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w228/mliusion/wateroutandin.jpg
This was done over a 24 hour time period.

[shikhyung]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14116313#post14116313 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mobert
replace with 1.022 instead of 1.026
adjust according to tank s.g.
How do you replace the loss water, with an ATO?

[mobert]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14804802#post14804802 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by shikhyung
How do you replace the loss water, with an ATO?

Actually, I used to have an ATO on my BioCube29 but I have disconnected it and just drip one of those gallons of water in the tank now and the slight rise in water levels causes the skimmer to drip out the yellowish skimmate. Way easier and more efficient way for me to do a water change. I dilute the salt water going in as needed to maintain proper salinity.

On my big tank now I have a very slow drip of kalk water going in the sump for ATO and my new salt water container tops off with a Kent float valve in the sump to replace water removed by the wet skimming.

[vito is hooked]

Just came across this thread yesterday, make's TOTAL sense to me, so I drilled my collection cup this morning. I'm currently doing a 2gal a day manual water change every morning before I,m out the door. It only take's me 5min in between feeding both tank's. I take 2 from the main out, and 2 from the FOWLER out, put the 2 from the main in the FOWLER tank, and 2 gal of NEW water in the main, the other 2 gal from the FOWLER down the drain. I.m Wet Skimming, (started this morning) into a 1gal jug, when this is full I just replace it with New Saltwater. I have a 2gal a day evap and refill with 1gal of R/O and drip 1gal of Kalk every morning. If this work's out like I think, my old water change routine is gone. Does anyone forsee any problems in my future? Thank's. :beachbum:

[Elliott]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14806248#post14806248 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mobert
I have a very slow drip of kalk water going in the sump for ATO and my new salt water container tops off with a Kent float valve in the sump to replace water removed by the wet skimming.

I do the same thing

[JMBoehling]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14809963#post14809963 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Elliott
I do the same thing

Same here... Exact same setup.. Just check your salinity every week till you get the drip rate dialed in.

I actually replace my salt with 1.030 salinity water, this allows me to drip more Kalk into my reef.

Jim

[JMBoehling]

One more thing...

I added a Aqualifter to my Kalk Drip. I have it on a timer, On for 15 minutes, off for 15 minutes... It does this cycle 24 hours a day 7 days a week. I found it difficult to allow gravity to naturally control the drip rate, the more liquid in the bucket the faster the drip and then it would slow down as the bucket emptied.

Just a little tip for others having a similiar problem.

Jim

[Elliott]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14810424#post14810424 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JMBoehling
One more thing...

I added a Aqualifter to my Kalk Drip. I have it on a timer, On for 15 minutes, off for 15 minutes... It does this cycle 24 hours a day 7 days a week. I found it difficult to allow gravity to naturally control the drip rate, the more liquid in the bucket the faster the drip and then it would slow down as the bucket emptied.

Just a little tip for others having a similiar problem.

Jim

I use a dosing pump for the Kalk drip and adjust the rate to dial in salinity

[Reefbox]

I setup a wet skimmate water change on my 125 yesterday. Wet skimmate water changes are the way for me here on out.

[mobert]

http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w228/mliusion/topoff-1.jpg

I modified the old picture of my kalk drip system. So what I do is drip kalk only when the tank ph is under 8.3 controlled by a Neptune Systems Aquacontroller II. The kalk water ph is 12.07 with no stirrer or mixer---just the slow drip drip of fresh water direct from my RO unit through the kalk in the canister raises the drip ph to 12.07. The ACII turns off and on the power to two float switches in the sump so either a high tank ph or a high water in the sump would close the solenoid valve and shut off the water through the canister. I have refilled the canister back in January after the picture was taken and the kalk level has only gone down about an inch and a half so I probably won't have to refill again for many months. So very low maintenance. I do now drip directly into the sump and Jim's idea of of raising the salinity of the new salt water and thus allowing more kalk water sounds like something I will try also. Thanks!

I think I will sell my fancy calcium reactor as dripping kalk suffices my tank needs and the reactor hasn't been turned on in over a year.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Assuming that pH of 12.07 is accurate, and it likely is not perfectly accurate at that high of pH, then that limewater is only 34% saturated.

[diverdick]

I have found that the etss 800 is nicely suited for this water change approach. I see more efficient use of salt with this hands down. No more weekly 40 gallon water changes here. The simple fact that roughly 10 gallons of wet skimate/week - quick and dirty math took a 4 week supply (1 bucket of reef crystals) to 4 months! Anualized salt cost from ~ $850 down to ~$200 bones! Pays for lamps and some power to boot!

Now is it worth a try?

Regards,

--Rich

[mobert]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14821994#post14821994 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Randy Holmes-Farley
Assuming that pH of 12.07 is accurate, and it likely is not perfectly accurate at that high of pH, then that limewater is only 34% saturated.

Randy, how to you figure out the limewater saturation. I just got a new probe and it reads 12.57 with ACII.
Thanks,

[buy_baff]

I have been doing the wet skimmate water change for about a month now after seeing this thread and it is by far the most productive way to do a water change! When I first did it I could not believe how nasty brown the wet skimmate was. So Thanks for the info.

[96p993]

What is the typical time frame you guys are doing this in..Im am trying this today for this first time and just hooked my topoff to the container with my new SW in it then cranked up my skimmer to what I thought was equal in and equal out...then just let it do its thing....Is this too quick to get a real benefit from it??

[crazzyreefer]

I had major problems with a aqua controller, The probe would be off when there was stray current, and yes it was grounded, The company aknolaged the design flaw and told me to diy a drip onto the condutivity probe, and even then it wasnt accurate, well not enough for this pourpose. I now have a wet neck skimmer, and I love the fact that I dont have to clean it, but it removes skimmate at about twice the salinity, so I have to add higher concentrated salt mix back into the tank everyday, some days its only 3 gal other days its more than 10. I hope to have the system more dialed in, but I have noticed that if a coral gives off toxins or spaws or any thousand of other things happen in the tank that day I dump much more water. Lucky I plumbed the drain from the skimmer head into the toilet air vent in the attic, In this way, skimmate goes down the drain and the skimmate odor vents to the roof.

[JMBoehling]

Little Update:

I took the Saltwater offline from the float. Back to just using Kalk. What I do now is whenever my skimmate reaches 1 gallon, I empty the bucket (Skimmate) and add 1 cup of Salt to my reef (Along with Calcium and Magnesium). I am using a small fish net with the ultra fine brine mesh to hold the salt. I made a little holder that holds the fish net and salt in the overflow of my reef and SLOWLY mixes the new salt into my reef over a two hour time frame.

I still keep the Venturi intake tube in my 5 gallon skimmate bucket so the Maximum skimmate I can remove via my skimmer is 2 gallon (Just in case my bristle worm or snails decide the breed and cause the skimmer to go nuts ;) )

All in all, my tank is looking better than ever using this method, and now I can keep my PH and ALK higher just dripping Kalk :)

Later,

Jim

[mobert]

Jam, that is really interesting. Gives me lots of ideas.

[augustasalty]

thanks for all the helpful information

[gabbagabbawill]

My wet skimmate change is easy... Just set the skimmer up to skim at a faster rate, drip that into a 5 gal bucket... when the waste bucket gets full, I replace it with the same amount of newly mixed and aerated saltwater. Takes me about 3 hours... I do about a 5 gal change in this time and the water that comes out is always a darker/ yellowish color. I see no need for automating any of this, as that is just something else to go wrong... my sump can take a 5 gallon loss of water without getting too low, so it's really easy to perform.

[KafudaFish]

Just curious but does this method of continous changes alter the size of a skimmer on a tank? Could you put a skimmer rated at 200 galllons on a 500 gallon tank? The skimmer would still be a higher quality skimmer just smaller.
Thanks.

[Mercer]

Originally posted by JMBoehling
...What I do now is whenever my skimmate reaches 1 gallon, I empty the bucket (Skimmate) and add 1 cup of Salt to my reef (Along with Calcium and Magnesium). I am using a small fish net with the ultra fine brine mesh to hold the salt. I made a little holder that holds the fish net and salt in the overflow of my reef and SLOWLY mixes the new salt into my reef over a two hour time frame...

Jim,

Perhaps just an oversight on my part but one cup of salt per one gallon of water seems to be a bit much. Seems to me it takes about 1/2 cup of salt per one US gallon, give or take depending on what specific gravity you're trying to achieve.

Originally posted by KafudaFish
Just curious but does this method of continous changes alter the size of a skimmer on a tank? Could you put a skimmer rated at 200 galllons on a 500 gallon tank? The skimmer would still be a higher quality skimmer just smaller.

You could get away with a smaller skimmer right from the get-go without utilizing this wet skimming system. It's all about export. You will need to test your water parameters like you normally would to make sure they are in check. On a larger tank the only downside would potentially be wasting a little bit more water than you may have needed to. That's definitely not going to harm anything.

Originally posted by JMBoehling
I still keep the Venturi intake tube in my 5 gallon skimmate bucket so the Maximum skimmate I can remove via my skimmer is 2 gallon (Just in case my bristle worm or snails decide the breed and cause the skimmer to go nuts )

http://i27.*******.com/16az2ac.jpg

Just for kicks I've attached a photo of my skimmer collection jar lid. It's a bit rough — you've been warned — when the jar fills it will trip the float switch, which in turn shuts off the skimmer & ozone. It's a bit more fancy than that (SMS notification!) but you get the idea, and can take it as far as you want. Yes, there is only one float switch. A possible nightmare. I do plan to add another one eventually, but so far it's pretty fool-proof. I like your idea of putting the supply line for your venturi into the collection cup, all but the idea of putting that garbage back into the tank. Yuck.

Awesome thread by the way. Great replies. Even better topic. :-)

[danreefman]

I love this thread gave me a lot of ideas, I like the disolving of the salt through the fish net. I'll deffenantly give this method a try. thanks everybody.

[MikeFisher1972]

Try a filter sock i dont knowwhat mircon but it will keep the water cleaner some salts leave a crust when i mix them for water changes but when i use a filter sock the rubber made contaner doesnt get dirty.

[gcwilt1]

is there any danger of removing too many beneficial trace elements by doing a water change in this fashion?

[EleganceMan]

i have heard from several people that wet skimming can be bad because it removes good and bad at the same time. What good does it remove and isn't that made up with coral and fish food feedings?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

is there any danger of removing too many beneficial trace elements by doing a water change in this fashion?



i have heard from several people that wet skimming can be bad because it removes good and bad at the same time. What good does it remove and isn't that made up with coral and fish food feedings?

I suppose it depends on what you consider good and what you consider bad (which varies a lot from reefer to reefer), but I don't see any substantial differences being likely, and there is certainly no demonstrated difference in what sort of trace ions are removed in wet and dry skimmate. Anyone who says otherwise is likely speculating wildly.

[Elliott]

is there any danger of removing too many beneficial trace elements by doing a water change in this fashion?



i have heard from several people that wet skimming can be bad because it removes good and bad at the same time. What good does it remove and isn't that made up with coral and fish food feedings?

I suppose it depends on what you consider good and what you consider bad (which varies a lot from reefer to reefer), but I don't see any substantial differences being likely, and there is certainly no demonstrated difference in what sort of trace ions are removed in wet and dry skimmate. Anyone who says otherwise is likely speculating wildly.

good to hear from you again Randy, I was hoping you would see this as I'm doing wet skimmate water changes, it has had a positive impact on my water quality

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thanks. I'm glad to hear it is working well for you. :)

[JMBoehling]

Been a while since my last update. I'm continuing to remove 1 gallon of wet skimmate a day and everything seems happy in my reef as well. I did recently change to Reef Crystals from Instant Ocean so i don't have to add Calcium and mag to my scoop of salt I add when I dumpo my skimmate bucket. ;)

As far as trace elements are concerned, I'm confident the 1/2 cup of new salt I add every day handles that.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I did recently change to Reef Crystals from Instant Ocean so i don't have to add Calcium and mag to my scoop of salt I add when I dumpo my skimmate bucket.

IO has higher levels of magnesium now, so that may not be as necessary:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1714505

from it:
.....................................Calcium ......Alkalinity...... Magnesium
Instant Ocean (new)..........400..............11.................1350

[jglackin]

I did recently change to Reef Crystals from Instant Ocean so i don't have to add Calcium and mag to my scoop of salt I add when I dumpo my skimmate bucket.

IO has higher levels of magnesium now, so that may not be as necessary:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1714505

from it:
.....................................Calcium ......Alkalinity...... Magnesium
Instant Ocean (new)..........400..............11.................1350

It's about time.

Have you ever been able to hook up with Allen LaPointe?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

After I saw your initial email, no, we've not connected.

[Elliott]

Randy, this is a question unrelated to this thread but I don't know how to reach you otherwise, so I apologize to our readers...

can LaCl be safely combined with MgCl/MgS04? I'm dosing each and considering combining them, also, can acetic acid (vinegar) be combined with either of them as well?

many thanks!

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Yes, all of those can likely be mixed OK. Lanthanum sulfate will precipitate if you make it too concentrated.

[Elliott]

Yes, all of those can likely be mixed OK. Lanthanum sulfate will precipitate if you make it too concentrated.

thanks! could they also be mixed with a Kalk solution?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

No, aside from vinegar, none can be mixed with limewater.

[JMBoehling]

Update and a slight modification :)

Well I recently added a Reefkeeper Light to my setup. Main reason is I wanted a way to control my PH, as it would dip a little lower than I liked at times.. Well here is what I have done and it seems to keep things nicely in check, and compliments my wet skimmate water changes.

First the setup:

(01) Aqualifter

(01) Ph Controller (Reefpkeeper Lite for me )

Here's how it works. If my PH goes below 8.19, the PH controller turns on my Aqualifter. It removes saltwater from my sump. As it removes saltwater from my sump into my 5 gallon wet skimmate bucket, my kent float valve opens, and allows Kalk to drip very slowly at the same rate my Aqualifter is set via a Micro Air Adjuster.

Here are some picture of the results (6 hour results of my PH today)

http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i122/JMBoehling/PA190004.jpg

http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i122/JMBoehling/PA190006.jpg

http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i122/JMBoehling/PA190008.jpg

I use a aqualifter prefilter so the diaphram doesn't get clogged

http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i122/JMBoehling/PA190011.jpg

Here's the collection bucket. If anything goes crazy the venturi from my skimmer will suck water back into the fuge and stop kalk from dripping . I realize this is not optimal, and there are other ways to skin this cat, but this seems to work fine for me.

http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i122/JMBoehling/PA190013.jpg

Another shot of the setup..

http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i122/JMBoehling/PA190014.jpg

I empty about 1 gallon of water a day and simply add makeup salt via a net hanging in my sump...

Just hoping to give some of you battling eradic PH spikes with a solution that doesn't cost an arm and a leg..

Later,

Jim

[jonnybravo22]

question! i tend to agree with the logic behind wet skimmate being dirtier water than a normal water change.

by this logic, curious to know why some people choose to do very dry skimmate? i know it looks cool, but isnt it less effective just given the longer time horizon that it takes to pull stuff out / less volume it removes? just wondering.

[Elliott]

question! i tend to agree with the logic behind wet skimmate being dirtier water than a normal water change.

by this logic, curious to know why some people choose to do very dry skimmate? i know it looks cool, but isnt it less effective just given the longer time horizon that it takes to pull stuff out / less volume it removes? just wondering.

wet and dry skimmate have different components of detrius which is why some people run two skimmers, one wet and one dry, however regarding the use of skimmate to perform water changes it is more effective to run your skimmer wet since it is being replaced with fresh seawater based on it's volume and not it's density

[fishoutawater]

I tried this weekend before last. Worked great. Changed 5 gallons in just about 12 hours. I could have gone wetter and done it faster but I wasn't in any hurry. For the next week I only skimmed out a quart of skimmate. When the weekend arrived I got setup to do another 5 gallons but,... no matter how wet I set my skimmer, I could only get about 1 gallon for the entire weekend. I checked airdraw on the skimmer and water output, everything seemed normal. I have a 40gal. breeder with about 60lbs live rock, about 50 gal total system volume, and 5 fish all under 4 inches. Could there just be nothing left to skim?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

however regarding the use of skimmate to perform water changes it is more effective to run your skimmer wet since it is being replaced with fresh seawater based on it's volume and not it's density

Sorry, I can't understand the logic. What does that mean?

by this logic, curious to know why some people choose to do very dry skimmate? i know it looks cool, but isnt it less effective just given the longer time horizon that it takes to pull stuff out / less volume it removes? just wondering.

If you are not set up to do it, then replacing the salt water frequently can be a pain, and dry skimmate is more efficient in terms of organics removed per unit of salt and/or salt water.

[Elliott]

I meant that if you are using skimmate to do for example a 10% water change, it would be more effective to run your skimmer wet to achieve the volume necessary as opposed to running it dry which would take forever :)

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Agreed. I just did not understand the mention of density. :)

[Gregster]

Just a question from a newbie here.
Is it possible that at any given time there is only so much skimmable organic matter in a system at a given time and in doing this concentrated waste/water change, what your seeing is just the same amount of skimmable organic waste as normal skimming produces with the exception that it is diluted by the extra water passing thru the protein skimmer due to it being dialed up?
ie; one spoon of instant tea can taint a lot of water.
I love the concept and have considered implementing it in a future system, but I can't seem to get past my thoughts on this being a possible illusion.
Maybe re-skimming the concentrated waste water again to remove the waste under normal duty thru the same skimmer might shed some insight as to what amount is really being removed compared to an average amount (same time duration) of standard duty skimming?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Is it possible that at any given time there is only so much skimmable organic matter in a system at a given time and in doing this concentrated waste/water change, what your seeing is just the same amount of skimmable organic waste as normal skimming produces with the exception that it is diluted by the extra water passing thru the protein skimmer due to it being dialed up?

That is certainly possible, yes. I can't see a downside, but there is little demonstrated proof (at least that I have seen) of how much more effective is wet skimming. :)

[Elliott]

Just a question from a newbie here.
Is it possible that at any given time there is only so much skimmable organic matter in a system at a given time and in doing this concentrated waste/water change, what your seeing is just the same amount of skimmable organic waste as normal skimming produces with the exception that it is diluted by the extra water passing thru the protein skimmer due to it being dialed up?
ie; one spoon of instant tea can taint a lot of water.
I love the concept and have considered implementing it in a future system, but I can't seem to get past my thoughts on this being a possible illusion.
Maybe re-skimming the concentrated waste water again to remove the waste under normal duty thru the same skimmer might shed some insight as to what amount is really being removed compared to an average amount (same time duration) of standard duty skimming?

the concept here is simply to replace your most "dirty" water (skimmate) with fresh seawater

[Gregster]

the concept here is simply to replace your most "dirty" water (skimmate) with fresh seawater

For sure it is a cool set-up, and I understand the requirement to use saltwater to replenish with.
I was just trying to see what the benefits were to implementing this technique from a water quality perspective, because it appears to me that if a skimmer is properly running, it is removing waste already, so I can't understand the benefit/advatage of wet skimming a water change.

I'm not trying to put it down, just trying to understand.

-Greg.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The proposed advantage is that very wet skimming removes as much or hopefully more organic material as an ordinary water change plus the same skimmer set to a dryer skimmate. It cannot really remove less, if done properly, and the hope for more is reasonable. So it is just an "improved" way of doing water changes.

I discuss such issues with respect to wet skimming here:

What is Skimming?
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-08/rhf/index.php

from it:

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-08/rhf/index.php#21

Wet vs. Dry Skimming



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Foam draining is a critical stage for most skimmers. One problem with drainage is that some organics are washed away with the draining water. There is always an equilibrium between organics in solution, and those actually attached to the interface. As water continues to drain, some of the organics are lost. Further, as some bubbles pop and their organics are redistributed into the nearby water, the local concentration of organics in the water between the bubbles in the foam can rise to concentrations far higher than are present in the aquarium. For this reason, the most effective skimming, in terms of total organic removal, comes from removing somewhat wet foam, rather than waiting for this same wet foam to drain prior to removal. The primary difference between wet foam, and drained dry foam, is that additional water and some organics have drained away. A dry form is more efficient in terms of the amount of organic removed in relation to the water volume, and all skimmers and their potential adjustments strike some balance between removing more water and slightly more organics, or less water and slightly fewer organics. Perhaps a careful analysis of different types of skimming will, in the future, show this expected result experimentally.

[Elliott]

lets compare the two

1. Convention water change: removes aquarium water and replaces it with fresh seawater

2. Wet skimmate water change: removes skimmate water and replaces it with fresh seawater


skimmate water has much more organics per unit volume than aquarium water, which is why wet skimmate water changes are more effective than conventional water changes at removing organics

[Gregster]

Thanks Randy and Elliot.
This gives me some things to ponder, and that's a good thing when we're talking reefs!
-Greg.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

:thumbsup:

Happy reefing. :)

[the_dizzy52]

that's funny..doing the dishes ay?

[killagoby]

something must be wrong with my skimmer,,,,50 gallons in 12 hours!!!??!!! i am lucky if i get 50 ml in 12 hours lol


Yea, but he's got a 225 gallon tank. I can just imagine how big his skimmer is...

[seabayaquatic]

This method should be renamed the Lazy Man's Water Change. You'd get more detritus removal if you got off the couch and just vacuumed the sand!

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

:lol:

In 14 years of reefing, I've never vacuumed sand once. :D

[JMBoehling]

Wet Skimmate water changes work best with a barebottom system where you keep all your detritus suspended with water flow, hence all is removed via filter sock or skimmate.. Works great for smart, lazy people ;)

Jim

[justins13]

Is there a way to test if it actually has more DOC in the wet skimmate or if it just seems like it is getting more? Goes back to the teaspoon of dry tea "polluting" alot of water...

[Gary Majchrzak]

This method should be renamed the Lazy Man's Water Change. You'd get more detritus removal if you got off the couch and just vacuumed the sand!

I'm with Randy: I never vacuum the sandbed in a reef aquarium.

It's not because I'm lazy, either. My sandbed is loaded with valuable microfauna that vacuuming would remove.

[KafudaFish]

I'm with Randy: I never vacuum the sandbed in a reef aquarium.

It's not because I'm lazy, either. My sandbed is loaded with valuable microfauna that vacuuming would remove.

Do you leave the sandbed alone 100% of the time or do you manually disturbe it from time to time?
Also what are your recommendations for clean up crews?

Thanks.

[Gary Majchrzak]

debates on cleanup crews and stirring the sandbed are best left for another thread but routinely 'storming' the aquarium with a powerhead/pump to disturb/lift any settled detritus is a good idea IMO/IME.

Such a storming is very effective when done prior to (or during) a wet skim water change :)

[KafudaFish]

Ok thanks for the opinion. I have one too and don't see a disturbance as a bad thing in a reef since it is a natural phenomenon.

[reefdogg1107]

Ok thanks for the opinion. I have one too and don't see a disturbance as a bad thing in a reef since it is a natural phenomenon.

Wouldn't a "disturbance" be something like storming with a powerhead?? Vacuming in an aquarium is very different from a disturbance since you are removing these organisms from the aquarium. In the ocean fish and other animals are free to move where they want in order to find micro organisms, where as in your aquarium if you remove them they are unable to find them. JMO :D

[KafudaFish]

Wouldn't a "disturbance" be something like storming with a powerhead?? Vacuming in an aquarium is very different from a disturbance since you are removing these organisms from the aquarium. In the ocean fish and other animals are free to move where they want in order to find micro organisms, where as in your aquarium if you remove them they are unable to find them. JMO :D

Yes I meant taking a PH and blasting the rocks and sand bed to help suspend the detritus in the water column and it eventually making it to the skimmer or filter sock etc.

As far as meiofauna they can be found in the sand at depths far greater than the average sand bed in our aquaria so how deep one goes is relative. Plus how many people clean their entire sandbed everytime?

Sorry to hijack and I won't disturbe this thread anymore.

[saltn07]

I never thought of using my skimmer like this, looking forward to trying it out

[waldomas]

If we were to run a skimmer on the "wet" side and empty, say... a half gal. of light tea colored skimmate each day (which would be less than the evaporation rate of the system), should we replace an equal amt. (equal to the skimmate that is) of new salt water, maybe everyother day or so? An ATO would be functioning as well.

[Elliott]

If we were to run a skimmer on the "wet" side and empty, say... a half gal. of light tea colored skimmate each day (which would be less than the evaporation rate of the system), should we replace an equal amt. (equal to the skimmate that is) of new salt water, maybe everyother day or so? An ATO would be functioning as well.

yes, however the ATO should be set up to automatically replenish the volume of skimmate removed from the system with fresh seawater

[waldomas]

yes, however the ATO should be set up to automatically replenish the volume of skimmate removed from the system with fresh seawater

Then how would you replace the evaporation?

[Elliott]

Then how would you replace the evaporation?

I have a separate reservoir of RO/DI water that is on a steady drip to estimate evaporative loss, if my salinity goes up I turn it up a bit and vice versa

[jeepguy242]

+1 on that, its easy enough to test salinity on a regualr basis, and adjust by adding more fresh ro, if needed

[duastina]

This is totally funny I've done this by accident a bunch of times where I turned my skimmer up too much because it wasn't doing anything then the next morning i have a flood on my floor even though it drains into a 5 gal bucket it still overflowed. Maybe it wasn't such a bad thing after all, need a bigger drain bucket though! LOL

[Newreeflady]

This seems interesting for sure. I would worry though about forgetting and having it overflow. One possibility is to employ a float switch. So, perhaps:

1) add water to a safe level in your sump to where if the power shut off it would not overflow.
2)Then, divert the skimmate to a reservoir putting a float switch in at the level where the water collected would equal the water added.
3) connect that float switch to the skimmer pump to be sure it shuts down before pulling out more water than was added in.

I'm going to think about how I might employ such a system...

[waldomas]

What about this?

- Set to skim wet w/ skimmate emptying a small percent to total.

- Have mixed SW to desired SG (1.025-1.026).

- When skimmate collector is full, replace extracted volume w/ mixed salywater.

- Have ATO to replace evaporation.

With this set-up the salinity would lower slightly as skimmate is produced and the ATO replaces that volume with fresh water. That is why a collector volume limit should be set (relative to total tank volume) to minimize SG swings.
When the SW is added, the ATO wouldn't activate until evaporation brings sump level down and raises SG back to desired level.

Specific gravity should stay within a tight range and "reset" with every cup empty.

What do y'all think?

[waldomas]

Or... just add mixed SW at desired (or slightly less) SG raiseing sump level and causing skimmer to skim wet. This added volume should be the same as the collector cup volume and be replaced when the cup is full.
An ATO would replace evaporation w/ fresh water.

This would probably be easier and have similar results with regaurds to SG and its fluctuations.
Like a COS wave instead of SIN.

[Lyfey]

Or have a ATO setup normally and have a gravity drip of fresh saltwater?

[waldomas]

Or have a ATO setup normally and have a gravity drip of fresh saltwater?

Would that not raise the SG by lessening the ATO amount by the amt. of fresh SW dripped?

I want to keep the SG as stable as possible.

[cal_stir]

i use an aqualifter pump on a timer to add salt water to my sump daily, i have a 90gal tank and a 80 gal sump with @ 50gal in it. the pump pumps @ 1gal per hour so i run it 2hrs a day, this raises my sump @ 1in. causing my bubble magus to overflow which i have connected to the house drain, the skimmer overflows till the level drops back to normal, i have no ATO, i mix my water to 1.020 and this maintains my tank at 1.025. i perform a monthly vacuuming of @ 10gal as well. the skimmate is light tea coloured when overflowing.

[rocride]

this is interesting but i have a couple questions from a newbie perspective in the hobby

why the small water changes?
Why not use an aqualifter or the like on a timer to pump out and in?
and for 200g how much freshwater would you have to add to change your reading from 1.026 to 1.027

i like the idea of doing a gallon a day or something like that,seems less intrusive but i'm wondering what you base your wc amount on,nitrates,phosphates,trace, the big three or simply because we do water changes at 10-15-20% of system volume

sorry i totally haven't read through this thread yet but was recently reading up on the the genisis sytem and might be something i look into wether it be a diy or a plug and play...

[waldomas]

Its not the idea of just a water change, its "wet skimming" to concentrate the change!

[rocride]

wow,i should have picked up on that...i like it

subscribed

[rickcSMF]

A very interesting topic indeed.


At first it made perfect sense to me. Then as I read though, a there were two people that asked some questions (trail and jonbrav.) that got me thinking...

I'm no math whiz, but I'm just trying to push the logic through. Other than forcing someone to perform water changes, and clean their skimmer, is it really doing much more?

I'm not trying to sound like a negative Nancy, I'm just trying to see where to difference is quantifiable.


What I mean is, lets say a set at optimum settings a skimmer removes X amount of detritus/organics a day... running it wet, should'nt change that fact, only dilute this amount of "X" into the rest of the "wet" skimmate right?

I mean isn't a ton of lead weigh the same as a ton of feathers, even though a ton of feathers takes up significantly more volume... as does this water we're replacing?

All I can see it doing is not allowing the skimmer to fully perform its function : to isolate and remove unwanted detritus/organics.

Instead, now we're saying that its now better to just concentrate them and replace the water caught in the process? I mean if before I did this method, I only did 20% monthly changes, now with this method, I now do 80%, are my results really quantifiable? Would I get the same results just doing the 80% changes? Or is it just the fact that this method forces me to do the 80% change that I normally wouldn't of?

Again, I think there's something to this, I just curious in the proof.

[Elliott]

A very interesting topic indeed.


At first it made perfect sense to me. Then as I read though, a there were two people that asked some questions (trail and jonbrav.) that got me thinking...

I'm no math whiz, but I'm just trying to push the logic through. Other than forcing someone to perform water changes, and clean their skimmer, is it really doing much more?

I'm not trying to sound like a negative Nancy, I'm just trying to see where to difference is quantifiable.


What I mean is, lets say a set at optimum settings a skimmer removes X amount of detritus/organics a day... running it wet, should'nt change that fact, only dilute this amount of "X" into the rest of the "wet" skimmate right?

I mean isn't a ton of lead weigh the same as a ton of feathers, even though a ton of feathers takes up significantly more volume... as does this water we're replacing?

All I can see it doing is not allowing the skimmer to fully perform its function : to isolate and remove unwanted detritus/organics.

Instead, now we're saying that its now better to just concentrate them and replace the water caught in the process? I mean if before I did this method, I only did 20% monthly changes, now with this method, I now do 80%, are my results really quantifiable? Would I get the same results just doing the 80% changes? Or is it just the fact that this method forces me to do the 80% change that I normally wouldn't of?

Again, I think there's something to this, I just curious in the proof.

The reason for skimming wet is to replace the skimmate volume with fresh seawater, so one is replacing the dirtiest water with the cleanest. This results in a very efficient water change. If one skimmed dry there would not be sufficient volume to replace. Make sense?

[scubasteve06]

Doesn't wet skimming not remove the more concentrated heavier organics though that dry skimming does? I'd like to see some pictures of people's skimmate that do this method, what kind of skimmer they are using, and how often they employ this method.

[rickcSMF]

From what I've read on skimmers, the 2 biggest factors in what is removed is the size of the air-bubbles and the length they are in contact with the water.

But there is a good following of people who (as posted prior) say that running wet and running dry removes different things, so people run 2 skimmers on a system. Yet another interesting idea.

I'd like to see some skimmer makers post here to give some insight as to optimal running conditions, and see if we can test this method. I think there might be something to it.

Its just that showing a pic of the water removed from the skimmer vs the water from the tank isn't real proof, because I'm sure in that scenario, I could take out the "dry" skimmate from the skimmer, add it to the water removed, and it would be VERY close to the shade of the wet skimmate. Thus the reason for a test.

[pinetree]

I tried this w/ last water change. Very simple solution to folks concerns about changing salinity:
When I tuned skimmer up to pull more for water change, I simply replaced my ato's container fresh water with SW.
When I finished, I tuned the skimmer back and replaced the sw in ATO system back to ro/di water.

[d0ughb0y]

ok, so I tried this today for the first time, and it seems the skimmate I am getting is quite clear (but frothy) unlike those shown in the pictures here. I'd say I am skimming about a gallon in 4 hours. am I supposed to skim slower? are all you guys who tried this getting yellowish skimmate? Even if I skim wet, I normally get yellowish skimmate in my collection cup after a day. I know I am skimming faster now and collecting the skimmate in a 5 gallon bucket.

I moved my ATO line from my freshwater reservoir to my 5 gallon fresh saltwater mix bucket. I am thinking with this setup, wouldn't the new water getting in via ATO get skimmed out (or part of it)?

my sump can handle maybe 1 gallon before the return pump starts sucking air, so skimming out 5 gallons first is out of the question.
I am sure the skimmate will contain some organics, just was not expecting it to be completely clear.

[Gary Majchrzak]

plug in the ATO after performing the wet skim water removal ;)

I've been doing wet skimmate water changes for several years now and I believe removing water via wet skimming is much more effective than simply removing water from the display. I don't run 'wet' 24/7 however...

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y270/gary334/Dec2010c.jpg

[d0ughb0y]

so do you mean adding new saltwater after skimming is better than replacing the water during skimming?

if I do that, I can only do 1 gallon at a time since I have a small sump and can only go 1 gallon before the return pump starts sucking air. I do a 5 gallon water change each week. so unless I can skim out all 5 gallons at once, doing it 1 gallon at a time would not be any better than replacing the water while skimming, because I will then be adding 1 gallon of new saltwater to skim out the next gallon and so on.

[Gary Majchrzak]

is there any way that you can increase the capacity of your sump thus allowing you to remove more water during a wet skim-out?

[d0ughb0y]

Not really. I think my current wet skimming setup would still export out more organics than pumping out 5 gallons of old water. I'll try this for a month or two and see how it goes.

[Lynx113]

i use an aqualifter pump on a timer to add salt water to my sump daily, i have a 90gal tank and a 80 gal sump with @ 50gal in it. the pump pumps @ 1gal per hour so i run it 2hrs a day, this raises my sump @ 1in. causing my bubble magus to overflow which i have connected to the house drain, the skimmer overflows till the level drops back to normal, i have no ATO, i mix my water to 1.020 and this maintains my tank at 1.025. i perform a monthly vacuuming of @ 10gal as well. the skimmate is light tea coloured when overflowing.

Bloody Brilliant if you ask me. Automatic water changes. :beer:

[waldomas]

i use an aqualifter pump on a timer to add salt water to my sump daily, i have a 90gal tank and a 80 gal sump with @ 50gal in it. the pump pumps @ 1gal per hour so i run it 2hrs a day, this raises my sump @ 1in. causing my bubble magus to overflow which i have connected to the house drain, the skimmer overflows till the level drops back to normal, i have no ATO, i mix my water to 1.020 and this maintains my tank at 1.025. i perform a monthly vacuuming of @ 10gal as well. the skimmate is light tea coloured when overflowing.

I think it would be best if you added newly mixed saltwater to the sump close to the return pump and after the skimmer as my skimmer tends to go a little crazy when I add the newly mixed water.

[the_real_brian]

I modded my MCE600 this morning with a drain hose coming off the skimmer cup and running to a 5 gallon bucket. I've been fighting cloudy water ever since I returned to reefing a year and a half ago and even on its best days my tank water had a haze to it.

Well, after just three hours of wet skimming with about 1 quart of skimmate produced my tank water is clearer than it has ever been.

I'm so happy...yeeeee!!! :bigeyes:

[liz62]

Little Update:

I took the Saltwater offline from the float. Back to just using Kalk. What I do now is whenever my skimmate reaches 1 gallon, I empty the bucket (Skimmate) and add 1 cup of Salt to my reef (Along with Calcium and Magnesium). I am using a small fish net with the ultra fine brine mesh to hold the salt. I made a little holder that holds the fish net and salt in the overflow of my reef and SLOWLY mixes the new salt into my reef over a two hour time frame.

I still keep the Venturi intake tube in my 5 gallon skimmate bucket so the Maximum skimmate I can remove via my skimmer is 2 gallon (Just in case my bristle worm or snails decide the breed and cause the skimmer to go nuts ;) )

All in all, my tank is looking better than ever using this method, and now I can keep my PH and ALK higher just dripping Kalk :)

Later,

Jim

Are you saying that you put a cup ( 1/2 cup) of dry salt in a mess bag and throw it into the sump to disolve? Can you do this?
I always thought that SW had to mixed for 24 hours before being added to the tank?
I have an RO/DI ATO in my sump and I manually make up SW for bi-weekly water changes - however if I can do the wet skimming thing and just throw a bag of dry salt into the sump afterwards then I am on board.
Eager to hear more on this!!

[liz62]

anyone?

[the_real_brian]

anyone?

I guess it would depend on the percentage of water you just skimmed out. If it's a small amount compared to your total water volume you shouldn't notice adverse changes in pH.

[liz62]

So it is ok to put salt in a mesh bag and throw it in your sump?

Example: Lets say I wet skim off 1-2 gallons of salt water - I can then replace the salt water by putting 1/2-1 cup of dry salt in a mesh bag and leave it to dissolve in my sump?

[Gary Majchrzak]

So it is ok to put salt in a mesh bag and throw it in your sump?

Example: Lets say I wet skim off 1-2 gallons of salt water - I can then replace the salt water by putting 1/2-1 cup of dry salt in a mesh bag and leave it to dissolve in my sump?I wouldn't recommend doing this. Replace the skimmed off water with new saltwater!

Have you ever noticed how critters react to solid salts placed into a reef aquarium?

Corals stress. Pods run for cover. etc. etc. etc.

[liz62]

I wouldn't recommend doing this. Replace the skimmed off water with new saltwater!

Have you ever noticed how critters react to solid salts placed into a reef aquarium?

Corals stress. Pods run for cover. etc. etc. etc.

That is what figured but I noticed that one of the posters does this method?

Originally Posted by JMBoehling
Little Update:

I took the Saltwater offline from the float. Back to just using Kalk. What I do now is whenever my skimmate reaches 1 gallon, I empty the bucket (Skimmate) and add 1 cup of Salt to my reef (Along with Calcium and Magnesium). I am using a small fish net with the ultra fine brine mesh to hold the salt. I made a little holder that holds the fish net and salt in the overflow of my reef and SLOWLY mixes the new salt into my reef over a two hour time frame.

I still keep the Venturi intake tube in my 5 gallon skimmate bucket so the Maximum skimmate I can remove via my skimmer is 2 gallon (Just in case my bristle worm or snails decide the breed and cause the skimmer to go nuts )

All in all, my tank is looking better than ever using this method, and now I can keep my PH and ALK higher just dripping Kalk

Later,

Jim

[Gary Majchrzak]

I read that as well ;)

I read a lot of things that I don't rush out to copy.
That's not to say that Jim's method doesn't work for him or it won't work for you.

[liz62]

I guess it would depend on what size system that you are running as well? The bigger the system then the less effect it would have on it? I am not sure what size tank Jim runs - maybe it is very large? I see it now - he runs a 90gl. - well I have a 75gl. What do you think would be the negative effects of throwing a mesh bag of salt in the sump? I run zeovit so it is a fairly controlled system.

[Allmost]

I guess it would depend on what size system that you are running as well? The bigger the system then the less effect it would have on it? I am not sure what size tank Jim runs - maybe it is very large? I see it now - he runs a 90gl. - well I have a 75gl. What do you think would be the negative effects of throwing a mesh bag of salt in the sump? I run zeovit so it is a fairly controlled system.

U could try it, but it would cause PH fluctuations till all mixed in, as well as some sort of precipitate I'd guess, also have to be sure it is fully solved in water before hitting main tank as the salt grains do burn sps and other corals.

I know a couple fish stores who do this on f.o. Tanks as well...

You can ultimately turn off the return pump and do this in sump, and turn return back on when fully done...

[Gary Majchrzak]

I guess it would depend on what size system that you are running as well? The bigger the system then the less effect it would have on it? I am not sure what size tank Jim runs - maybe it is very large? I see it now - he runs a 90gl. - well I have a 75gl. What do you think would be the negative effects of throwing a mesh bag of salt in the sump? I run zeovit so it is a fairly controlled system.Zeo, a cone skimmer and you want to toss a mesh bag full of salt in your sump.

It just doesn't make sense to me.

[liz62]

If I was to wet skim daily and take off a couple of gallons then I thought it would be easier way to replace the saltwater. I have no way of having a large SW barrel at my disposal.

[alexwbush]

LOTS of great ideas here. I had never thought of water change via skimmer. I plan to try this for consideration in an automatic water change system. I would turn off the main return allowing the water level in the sump to rise. This would cause the skimmer to overflow pushing the excess water into a 5gal bucket until it reached normal skimming level in the sump and is skimming normal. I would then either
1. turn off the skimmer, fill with to the higher level (my back up level for my ATO in case primary doesn't work so I can avoid flooding) with fresh saltwater, turn main return pump on, keep filling with fresh saltwater using ATO, then turn on skimmer (which lowers sump level again) and fill more fresh saltwater until ATO level, then switch back to normal fresh RO ATO.
2. turn on main return pump, top off with fresh saltwater as main return pump and skimmer are running

I think I'd opt for the first option to avoid any issues with running pumps dry. I can do this (hopefully) programming my Reef Angel that I just ordered. I'd also have a float switch on my skimmer waste bucket to avoid overflowing that bucket. And of course the controller would check to make sure there is enough fresh saltwater in the other bucket before heating it, circulating, and proceeding. Oh, and this is on a tank that is only about 50 gal, if that, in total volume. Small volume, I know, but I love automation. It was part of my major in college.

[Bilk]

This seems to be a rather silly method to perform a water change. So it's wet skimmate. What good is that? The time it takes to do a normal water change is maybe 5min. Doing this way takes hours. Those same hours of normal skimming would produce a dark full skimmate instead of light, weak skimmate. I don't get the advantage to this.

[alexwbush]

This seems to be a rather silly method to perform a water change. So it's wet skimmate. What good is that? The time it takes to do a normal water change is maybe 5min. Doing this way takes hours. Those same hours of normal skimming would produce a dark full skimmate instead of light, weak skimmate. I don't get the advantage to this.

For me when I turn off the main return the water level rises in the sump and it starts wet skimming into a bucket I have setup. It'll wet skim until it returns to just below the normal water level (takes about 30-40 min). I let it do it's thing while I am checking everything with the new water and watching tv. Then I plug my powerhead to pump fresh water in up to my ATO system, turn the main return back on and watch it refill.

I wouldn't say it's quicker than what I used to do for water changes, but it's super easy (very little spilling) and it's one step closer to automating the system. I have the equipment to automate, I've just been to lazy to set it up right (haha, makes sense, right?).

[Aimforever]

This seems to be a rather silly method to perform a water change. So it's wet skimmate. What good is that? The time it takes to do a normal water change is maybe 5min. Doing this way takes hours. Those same hours of normal skimming would produce a dark full skimmate instead of light, weak skimmate. I don't get the advantage to this.

In theory skimming wetter allows you to replace the dirtiest water with fresh saltwater rather than just exchanging it for regular tank water. Think of it this way: the water you remove during a normal water change is usually pretty close to being clear - it doesn't contain a high concentration of organics. However, when skimming wet the water being pulled out is tea-colored or darker (i.e. it contains lots of organics).

The concentration of the skimmate is irrelevant - the point is that theoretically the total amount of organics being removed from the aquarium is increased using this method because the skimmer can push out organics faster (again, in theory, it takes longer to for a skimmer to concentrate organics into a dry foam than it does to push them out continuously in a wetter foam). The idea is that you get more bang for your fresh saltwater than you would with a standard waterchange, plus there are ways to automate this to make it easier. Also, the skimmer neck stays much cleaner so for those without neck cleaners the skimmer is working more efficiently for this reason as well. As far as I know, there is no controlled study to prove this, but many people have had positive results using this method.

I understand that looking at a skimmer cup full of sludge may be more satisfying, but personally I think it is more efficient to keep the skimmer running cleaner and skimming wetter. At the end of the day though, there are so many variables that come into play that whether or not this method will work better for you just depends on your setup.

[Gary Majchrzak]

This seems to be a rather silly method to perform a water change. So it's wet skimmate. What good is that? The time it takes to do a normal water change is maybe 5min. Doing this way takes hours. Those same hours of normal skimming would produce a dark full skimmate instead of light, weak skimmate. I don't get the advantage to this.try it and you might ;)



it's pretty easy to show that a wet skimmate water change is more effective than a regular water change at removing a higher percentage of organics during a water change.

Fill a deep clean white bucket with old "regular" aquarium water.

Now, fill a deep clean white bucket with old "wet skimmed" aquarium water (after discarding dark tea colored skimmate already in collection cup!)

Compare coloration of both.

If speed is what you seek in a water change the wet skim water change isn't for you . If effectiveness is your goal than you might consider this method.

[Bilk]

The reason the wet smimmate is tea colored vs that of the regular water change water is it has the skimmate in it that has been residing in the skimmer cup and neck.

My only issue was, if I understood the process correctly, was to do this over an extended period of time. In that same time frame, the skimmer would be working normally and producing the same dark skimmate it usually does. Just not sure if this does anything to remove more organics or it's just diluted skimmate that would have been produced under normal operation.

Now for using this method as a flushing mechanism to clean the skimmer neck and cup, well I can see value in that. No need to pull the skimmer cup and then wait until the skimmer starts to fractionate foam all over again.

I plumbed my system with a separate valve that branches off of the return. It has a hose barb and hose already attached. I just open it and fill 5 gal. into a bucket and then replace that 5gal. with fresh seawater. Takes less than 5 min. but I'll try using the wet skimmer cleaning method for the first gallon or so. My skimmer has a hose that runs to a good sized collection container. Water change and skimmer cleaning all in one sounds good.

[d0ughb0y]

try it and you might ;)



it's pretty easy to show that a wet skimmate water change is more effective than a regular water change at removing a higher percentage of organics during a water change.

Fill a deep clean white bucket with old "regular" aquarium water.

Now, fill a deep clean white bucket with old "wet skimmed" aquarium water (after discarding dark tea colored skimmate already in collection cup!)

Compare coloration of both.

If speed is what you seek in a water change the wet skim water change isn't for you . If effectiveness is your goal than you might consider this method.

I think that is not quite the correct comparison based on Bilk's argument.
A proper comparison is,
bucket 1 contains wet skimmate (say collected over 5 hours)
bucket 2,contains your regular aquarium water, PLUS dump in what would have been skimmed over 5 hours.

And Bilk's argument is it will be about the same, and I can see he has a point there. Actually, I will say bucket 2 will be dirtier because normal skimming for 5 hours will extract more organics than 5 hours of very wet skimming.



For me when I turn off the main return the water level rises in the sump and it starts wet skimming into a bucket I have setup. It'll wet skim until it returns to just below the normal water level (takes about 30-40 min). I let it do it's thing while I am checking everything with the new water and watching tv. Then I plug my powerhead to pump fresh water in up to my ATO system, turn the main return back on and watch it refill.

I wouldn't say it's quicker than what I used to do for water changes, but it's super easy (very little spilling) and it's one step closer to automating the system. I have the equipment to automate, I've just been to lazy to set it up right (haha, makes sense, right?).

your sump is not setup correctly if turning off the return pump will rise the water level for the skimmer. I used to have this problem when I forget to turn off the skimmer before turning off the return pump causing all the skimmate to overflow and spill over back into the sump :(, till I read somewhere a properly configured sump should not need turning off the skimmer when the return pump is turned off, and that the skimmer water level MUST remain constant regardless if return pump is running or not.

[Gary Majchrzak]

The reason the wet smimmate is tea colored vs that of the regular water change water is it has the skimmate in it that has been residing in the skimmer cup and neck.notice that I posted NOT to include skimmate that was residing in the collection cup.

[Gary Majchrzak]

Actually, I will say bucket 2 will be dirtier because normal skimming for 5 hours will extract more organics than 5 hours of very wet skimming.apples and oranges.

5 hours of skimming is 5 hours of skimming.

Removing 5 hours of wet skimmed water to do a water change is much different than removing the same amount of "regular" old water from the aquarium and running the skimmer "dry" for those 5 hours. Simply put: it works!

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y270/gary334/May2011a.jpg

[d0ughb0y]

I don't think it will be the same, as the amount of air involved is greatly decreased when you wet skim. I'm sure you know the principle of skimming requires air. At a minimum I will agree for the sake of argument that it can be the same, but you can never say the wet skim will have more organics than the regular water plus the normal skim.

The principle is really flawed if you consider Bilk's agrument.

You're saying it works is like saying you drive to work backwards and you get there everyday. Sure that is true, but based on Bilks argument as an analogy, it is a silly way to get there, as there are many more tanks that look nice that don't do wet skim. so it cannot be attributed to wet skim water change alone. in fact, I'd say your good husbandry is the reason for your nice tank, and you can have just as nice a tank even if you do normal water change.

[Gary Majchrzak]

removing 5 gallons of wet skimmed water is more efficient at removing organics from a system than removing 5 gallons of water from the display aquarium (for a water change).

in fact, I'd say your good husbandry is the reason for your nice tank, and you can have just as nice a tank even if you do normal water change.thanks and I agree :)

But why not opt for more bang for the buck?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Perhaps it was lost earlier in this thread, or maybe it was just in different threads, but part of the reasoning behind wet skimming is that it removes more organic matter than dry skimming for the same amount of time.

While I agree there is no data to bear on this issue, the reasoning is sound.

If you create a foam, then you drain it to some extent, more draining to form a dryer foam will also cause some loss in organic matter in that drained water. The only question is how large the effect is. Is it a 50% difference, or a 0.1% difference in total removed organic matter. We just do not know. :)

[Gary Majchrzak]

thanks for reminding us of this, Randy.

I've been doing wet skim water changes for several years now after over a decade of performing "regular" water changes. I wish I could quantify the amount of organics removed by both methods but it's beyond my means.

In any case, it makes sense that 5 gallons of wet skimmate might contain more organics than 5 gallons of "regular" aquarium water.
The wet skimmate is certainly darker and more foamy than regular aquarium water!

[Bilk]

thanks for reminding us of this, Randy.

I've been doing wet skim water changes for several years now after over a decade of performing "regular" water changes. I wish I could quantify the amount of organics removed by both methods but it's beyond my means.

In any case, it makes sense that 5 gallons of wet skimmate might contain more organics than 5 gallons of "regular" aquarium water.
The wet skimmate is certainly darker and more foamy than regular aquarium water!

Not arguing the point that wet skimmed water has more organics than just removing water from the system. I believe the skimmer under normal skimming will remove the same amount if not more during the same duration of time needed to wet skim. Wet skimming also requires one to change the settings on the skimmer. Then you have to dial it back in again. I just don't see the benefit other than getting a cleaner skimmer after the water change is finished. But that's jmo.

[waldomas]

Wouldn't the increased amount of organics skimmed out w/ wet skim over dry have to be greater than the amount of organics in the water changed w/ "regular water change? :)

I say worse case you have at least equal amts. of organics skimmed AND the added benefit of having to clean the skimmer less!

This method makes sense to me.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I believe the skimmer under normal skimming will remove the same amount if not more during the same duration of time needed to wet skim.

Sure, one could try to set the skimmer to not function as well, but if all you do is allow the same foam (and perhaps that is where we disagree) to drain more before collecting it, I cannot see any way the organic material could be less under wet skimming.

[Bilk]

I believe the skimmer under normal skimming will remove the same amount if not more during the same duration of time needed to wet skim.

Sure, one could try to set the skimmer to not function as well, but if all you do is allow the same foam (and perhaps that is where we disagree) to drain more before collecting it, I cannot see any way the organic material could be less under wet skimming.

Hi Randy. I guess the essence of what your saying is that we should wet skim over dryer skimming? So if we were able to wet skim 100% of the time, we'd accomplish a better environment? I always believed that longer contact time was necessary to achieve adhesion.

I have only seen a few up close, but even marine aquariums with limitless water sources, seem to be dry skimming. Maybe I'm wrong on this but I think wet skimming just removes more of the good stuff vs that of dry skimming.