auto water changer

[brians4671]

i want to set my tank up with an automatic daily water changing setup. does anyone have any links or diy plan for such a setup? tia

[Doahh]

http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/Plumb...oduct_info.html

If you want to do a 20 gallon a week water change just punch in 8ml/minute

[Doahh]

Ahh link didn't work.
Find a Litermiter 3

[brians4671]

darn the link isnt working. im at bulk reef supply but im not sure what you were linking to.

[brians4671]

oh ok thanks for the info.

[chrismunn]

you could put a float switch in the sump thats is attached to a pump inside of a fresh salt water resivoir. then you could put a pump in the sump that is on a timer to run for 1 minute 1 time per day or whatever? that pump would lead to a drain.

you would want the drain pump to be quik, and you would want the fresh feed pump to be much slower. when the drain pump turns on, the float switch will be activated shortly there after and will turn on the feed pump. that means the fresh salt water will be feeding the sump at the same time as the sump is draining. thats why you want the 2 pumps to work at different speeds.

thats nothing that ive ever heard of anybody using, and quite honestly it doesnt even sound reliable to me. it wasjust off the top of my head. there is probably a much easier and safer way to do it? ( like manually :lol: )

if you do find a way, let usknow, im surley iterested! :)

[brians4671]

honestly ive been kicking the idea around for some time now. i never really acted on it because it has always been the way to remove detritus. it usually takes what i need to change biweekly to get it removed. but ive always been curious as to how those who have it set it up.

[One Dumm Hikk]

http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/LiterMeter-III/c68/index.html

[Doahh]

or one of these
http://www.innovativeaquatics.com/

[oldsaltman]

Here is the one I made some time ago. It operates off volume not time. You decide how much water want to change and the rest is done by the pumps. The small waste container is controlled with a float valve. I change out 1g every day. I am upgrading to an inwall 90g and will use my new Aquacontroller to do this now. The only thing I changed was to add small mag pumps and remove the aqualifters.

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/115850Paint_ATO.jpg

[chrismunn]

SAO57, im a little confused as to how the system operates off of float valves? if the water level in the sump is at a constant height, what activates the float valves to start the cycle?

does the digital control center start up the drain line to drain 1g, thereby activating the float valves to then replenish 1g?

very cool by the way.

[oldsaltman]

Yes, everything turns off and the aqualifter in the sump pumps out the 1g to the waste container. Then the salt bucket refields the sump. After that the regular ATO takes over. Did that answer the question?

[Billionzz]

So is the digital control center a controller that you bought?

[Doahh]

It's 3 timers.
You could simplify it to one timer and one float switch if you just ran one timer to 2 aqualifters with a determined flow rate (Sprinkler Drippers)

[funman1]

We have a refer in our club that is going to be doing this with a PLC.
He saw how sweet my PLC was that controlled my tank and wanted one for his tank.

With the PLC if you can dream it, it will do it.
He is programming his with 3 float switches (I think)
2 float switches in the sump, one high and one low.
then a switch in the saltwater storage container.

When the scheduled day and time hits the PLC will look at the high float switch in the sump to make sure the water level is correct in the sump, then it will check the float switch in the salt tank to make sure it has enough water in the tank to complete the transaction.
If there is not enough water in the fresh tank, it will not do the change and sound an alarm, and display on the screen that's it needs salt water to complete the exchange.

Then it will kick on a heater and power head in the salt water storage, so it's stirred and heated to temp...

A few hours later, after the water has been heated it performs the exact same check as above, and if all checks out it shut off the ATO routine, and will then open an electric PVC valve to drain water from the sump into the drain.
It will drain till the lower float switch triggers in the sump.
It will then close the valve and pump back in the fresh salt water till the high float switch triggers again. It then shuts down the pump to refill it and the heater and power head in the storage tank, and turns back on the ATO.

Thus completing the cycle.
It sounds very complicated but it's very simple, and not hard to program at all.
This is the ultimate in the reef aquarium!

[oldsaltman]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14027484#post14027484 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Doahh
It's 3 timers.
You could simplify it to one timer and one float switch if you just ran one timer to 2 aqualifters with a determined flow rate (Sprinkler Drippers)

Mine does not work off flow rate or drippers. It removes and add the amout of waste water you want removed by volume not time. I just bought an aquacontroller for my 90g upgrade and will use it for this task, but the timer system works great and is cheap.

[Billionzz]

I'm still trying t figure this out as the best way to do automaic water changes and auto top off.

I have ordered a controller (reefkeeper elite), will this handle any of the auot water changes and auto top off or do I still need the litermeter?

[brians4671]

well in my future upgrade im going to put some thought into some type of detritus collection area that will be flushed with an auto water change. some low point in my system that will collect the detritus as it works its way through my tank.

[chrismunn]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14025641#post14025641 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by SA057
Yes, everything turns off and the aqualifter in the sump pumps out the 1g to the waste container. Then the salt bucket refields the sump. After that the regular ATO takes over. Did that answer the question?

yes, thank you :)

[stugray]

I plan on incorporating a auto WC system using my skimmer.

I typically skim really wet, and every time I drain my skimmer collection cup, I add a pitcher of fresh SW to the sump.
My collection cup holds about 1/2 gallon & I typically drain it daily.

Now I just need to add a auto Salt Water reservoir next to my RO/DI reservoir.

I could automate it all with my PLC that I already use to control my RO/DI reservoir.

Stu

[chrismunn]

what exactly is a PLC???

[cphelps]

[violation]

[funman1]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14029251#post14029251 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by chrismunn
what exactly is a PLC???

It stands for "Programable Logic Controller"
There are thousands of units to choose from, fram basic units that have no screen and just some inputs and some outputs, all the way upto units that have hundereds of inputs and outputs with multipile color touch screens...

basicly they have inputs, for switches sensors and such, and outputs, for equipment such as pumps, lights, etc...

And then you get to program what it will do to the outputs based on what's happening on the inputs.

Aquarium controllers like the ACjr are PLCs but with limited programing to keep it simple for most non programmers.

Here is my thread on my PLC for my tank.
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1017295

[iamwrasseman]

auto ,auto , auto ? this hobby is a love of the hobby itself which includes the maintence of your tanks ! do you wash your cool car ? thats maintence . i hate auto anything when it comes to fish or coral tanks because we get a false sence of security from thease gadgets, and when they malfunction its death that usually results . is it really that difficult to do a 20 gal water change ? what does it consist of ten minutes of your time ,and this is two fold cause this is when you can inspect and take inventory of your inhabitants. this is all time that you should of realized it was giong to take to be in the hobby , heck i have 17 tanks and they all sparkle . i am superhuman and know that no one can do what i do but at least give it an effort or get a picture of a shark and hang it in place of the energy robbing tank ! sorry but thats how i feel ,i dont mean to bump heads but ............................................................................... im sorry ,must get a drink now !

[stugray]

iamwrasseman

"do you wash your cool car ? thats maintence . "

Do you get out and actually wash your car by hand, or do you ( like I do ) go to an AUTOMATIC carwash??


"is it really that difficult to do a 20 gal water change ?"

For my system, I should be ( according to the experts ) doing a 40-60 Gallon change per week......


I can make 30 gallons of SW at a time with my current system ( manually ).
Does that sound "hard"?


Also, in my line of work, if I cant make a PLC system fail-safe, then I should change professions ;-)

However, you are definitely right, "Some" of the stuff we discuss on this forum should be left to experts, but if we all followed that argument, we woulndt have people like Burt Rutan....

Stu

[oldsaltman]

Wow!
Yes, I wash some of my cars by hand and others go to the car wash. Was that the question?
I think the question was how to do an auto water change not why to do it! Sorry but we got a little off track here, but i see that happen all the time.

[chrismunn]

so do you need a degree to program a PLC? if so, in what? im recruiting for the fire department right now and one of the stipulations of entry is that i complete a few college courses. it doesnt matter what classes i take, but i want to make the best of them since its costing me money! :D ide like to be able to build little electronic gadgets and perhaps program circuitry? i just dont know what classes to take? i dont wanna accidentally learn how to wire a house or something? :lol:

[funman1]

I'm not aware of any classes on PLC programing from regular schools.
Most of the time you could take a class from the manuf. fot the device.

Some have their own language, others can be programmed via ladder logic (Google it) and some like mine can be programmed via logic gates and function blocks.

First you have to pick a PLC then you can figure out how to program that one.

[stugray]

SA057,

Sorry.

I was just saying that some of us need things ( water changes, top off, dosing ) on a bigger scale than other people.

When it becomes a burden to do the maintenance ( water changes ), we tend to neglect them.

Any Automated system that we can build ourselves ( and is dependable ), should be built & experimented with to increase the reliability.
We can do that as a DIY & open-source community.




chrismunn,

You would want to look at tthe curriculum or list of classes that you would need at a local technical college or junior college for: "introduction to electricity" or & "basic electronics".

From there you get your hands on some hardware & play with it.
The PLC I use for my ATO reservoir was only $200 in 1993.

You can get a PicMicro dev kit at radio shack for $70.

Stu

[iamwrasseman]

i do agree with you fully , some things are better left to the experts . yes i do have to do 40 gal waterchanges as i did tonite ,it really took one hour to do so with carbon and phosban change also , but isnt this a part of reefkeeping that we took on when we decided to get "to big" with this stuff ? i just hooked up an auto top off system for a LFS that has just opened here and i had to explain that if something fails then everybody dies if its not caught in time . yhey said no problem because it made things simple but if there is a problem then there will be some very long faces on that particular day .this may never happen but i have read numerous times on RC of just this thing happening to others . it does and will work great 99.9 % of the time and i guess that i am taking chances with worse percentages with the number of lights , ie ballasts , fans , heaters and numerous pumps that all could fail thus resulting in my house being reduced to charcoal . summing it up you are 100% correct that it will work i just like to be cautious when it has the potential to kill thousands of dollars of livestock , but with time all can be replaced ! sometimes things said are read incorrectly and i just like to keep things simple in that way . sorry i did not mean to ruffle any feathers rather make a point ,and i may have been harsh in a way . thankyou for redirecting me so i could see the overall picture . and of course have a great new year !

[chrismunn]

thanks guys, ill have to check that out. i cant wait to learn a little bit about electrical!

i must have been confused about the PLC. i thought a degree in computer programming or electrical engineering would be needed to understand how to program one?

[RyanEG]

Why not just just run two identical perisataltic pumps(same motor.head and tube diameter) and have one pumping out of one section of the sump and the the other pumping directly into the return section? You can get small ones that will only move 12 gallons of water a day. Just an option without getting into the electronics field.

[Doahh]

12 gallons a day is like 84 gallons a week.
You could get a single head dual tube dosing pump for like $120 and use that with the idea above

[iamwrasseman]

really do apoligize , didnt mean to get off on a tangent or cause a problem .

[Doahh]

Heck if you knew what you were doing get two identical dosing heads so they are the same flow rate and one of these:
http://www.robotshop.us/arduino-usb-microcontroller-board.html

[Reefugee]

That's one LAZY reefer! What next? If he automates his tank too much, he might actually have to spend some time with his family. :lol:

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14027515#post14027515 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by funman1
We have a refer in our club that is going to be doing this with a PLC.

[iamwrasseman]

zip

[oldsaltman]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14031919#post14031919 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RyanEG
Why not just just run two identical perisataltic pumps(same motor.head and tube diameter) and have one pumping out of one section of the sump and the the other pumping directly into the return section? You can get small ones that will only move 12 gallons of water a day. Just an option without getting into the electronics field.

This would work, but the pumps would be costly if they were identical. And them you would need a controller. That is close to what mine does except I use cheap powerheads to do the job. Mine also works off volume not time the pump is running. You decide how much you want to remove by the float valve in the waste container. Then the saltwater tank just refields the sump as the ATO would.

[brians4671]

so you empty the waste container after each wc? sounds like a practical setup sa057 i would need a failsafe backup. im guessing you have one just didnt mention it?

for my topoff i have 3. 1 syphon break 2 dosing pump on a timer. 3 float valve with solenoid.

[Doahh]

Hey why not use RC servos?
http://babelfish.yahoo.com/translate_url?doit=done&tt=url&intl=1&fr=bf-home&trurl=http%3A%2F%2Fmars.reefkeepers.net%2FArticles%2FPompeDoseuse.html&lp=fr_en&btnTrUrl=Translate

That's really simple if you just used a 5vdc wall wart thing and had it on a timer.
It's even adjustable and these servos are incredibly accurate

And you dont necessarily need the PCB with the knobs and IC things... but it's really nice. If you REALLY knew what you were doing you could program it with a little LCD screen and have your own advanced "LM3"

[oldsaltman]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14034699#post14034699 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by brians4671
so you empty the waste container after each wc? sounds like a practical setup sa057 i would need a failsafe backup. im guessing you have one just didnt mention it?

for my topoff i have 3. 1 syphon break 2 dosing pump on a timer. 3 float valve with solenoid.

Yes I just dump the waste every day, but you could drop another aqualifter in that and pump it into the drain. I just didn't do that. The way the timers, ATO and float valve work if anything fails the system just doesn't do anything. If I forget to empth the waste container then nothing happens. Here is what I made for the waste bucket.

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/115850IMG_0210.JPG

[Harry_Fish]

I need to setup an auto water change as well.

Because sometimes life just gets in the way of the maintence.

I was thinking about a system that would change a small amount
everyday over once a week, it seems like it would lead to a more
stable system.

Auto topoff, auto water change, and a self cleaning skimmer head.

I should be pretty set :)

[Canarygirl]

I've always wanted an auto-WC system as well. I have a sink within range that could be the waste water receptacle, and I also have a spare Aquacontroller Jr that's not doing much at the moment...

Do you think I could make this work if I controlled my ATO (Tunze Osmolator) with the AC Jr then I could turn it off, then run the waste-water-out powerhead based on an elapsed time parameter, then run the new SW-in powerhead the same way, and then turn the ATO back on when I'm done? That seems fairly straight forward. Doing a gallon or two at a time the fresh SW doesn't need to be heated, either....

[oldsaltman]

Yes, I think that will work fine. I also just bought an Aquacontroller for my new 90g upgrade. I plan to replace all my cheap timers with the controller too. I still have a few weeks before I am ready to put the water in mine.

[chrismunn]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14031919#post14031919 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RyanEG
Why not just just run two identical perisataltic pumps(same motor.head and tube diameter) and have one pumping out of one section of the sump and the the other pumping directly into the return section? You can get small ones that will only move 12 gallons of water a day. Just an option without getting into the electronics field.
if both pumps arent pumping EXACTLY the same amount of water then your either going to end up with a tank too full, or a tank too low. it wont be immediate, but very gradually depending on the amount of daily usage...

if only it were that easy! :D

[RyanEG]

It is that easy that is what peristaltic pumps are designed to do, move a specific ammount of fluid at a specific speed. They are designed for medical and laboratory use. And they can be purchased very reasonably if you are willing to shop around or use second hand professional equiptment.

[OldSaltMan1]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14037343#post14037343 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RyanEG
It is that easy that is what peristaltic pumps are designed to do, move a specific ammount of fluid at a specific speed. They are designed for medical and laboratory use. And they can be purchased very reasonably if you are willing to shop around or use second hand professional equiptment.

I have seen this talked about several times, but I don't believe it works that way. IMO you are asking for trouble. Have you tried this on a long term basis?

[Doahh]

If it wasn't that accurate they wouldn't be allowed to use it for stuff in hospitals like BLOOD where peoples lives depend on it.

[OldSaltMan1]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14037443#post14037443 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Doahh
If it wasn't that accurate they wouldn't be allowed to use it for stuff in hospitals like BLOOD where peoples lives depend on it.

The question was have you done this on a long term basis and did it work? I am not talking about blood I am talking about water changes.

[stugray]

You can get a dual head peristaltic pump. One head pumps out, the other head pumps in, and they are guaranteed to pump the same amount both ways. You could run one on a once per day time & you cant get much simpler for the price.

I got a masterflex variable speed pump on ebay for under $100.

I saw many that offered dual pump heads, but I bought the single head for my calcium reactor.



Just one dual head persistaltic pump can do what we are talking about perfectly with very low chance of failing ( unless you forget to fill the New SW bucket for a long time, or fail to change the tubing after the specified lifetime ).


The suggestion above of just having one pump that pumps to the drain and another that pumps in new SW will work fine as long as you have water level switches built in and a dependable controller.


I actualy HAVE a AC3Pro, but currently it is only in monitor mode ( and frankly the more I read about problems with the X10 control & issues with the DC8 control modules, I am wary of using it for critical tank maintenance ).

Stu

[Doahh]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14037478#post14037478 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by OldSaltMan
The question was have you done this on a long term basis and did it work? I am not talking about blood I am talking about water changes.

But what will change?
If you have high quality equipment it shouldn't fail

[OldSaltMan1]

The suggestion above of just having one pump that pumps to the drain and another that pumps in new SW will work fine as long as you have water level switches built in and a dependable controller.

IMO this is the best way to do it!

[Doahh]

Actually with a dual head pump with the same level switches would be the BEST way.

It depends weather he meant by one pumping out untill the lower switch activates and then pumping in till the top one activates or just having them as a backup
If it was the first one then no that wouldnt be the best way because what if your ATO was just about to activate or if it just finished activating?
That would throw off your salinity more than these peristaltic pumps ever would

[OldSaltMan1]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14037519#post14037519 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Doahh
But what will change?
If you have high quality equipment it shouldn't fail ,

OK, I guess if you spend enough money on the pumps then they will pump equal amounts and everything will be fine. This is a DIY forum and the post was about a cheap way to DIY. IMO the cheap DIY that is posted works as well as any method I have seen yet! There are many ways to do an automated water change I guess it just depends on how much money you have and whether you want to DIY or buy something to do it. Some have even posted that we should not do auto changes. I will just stick to the way I have been doing it like the diagram above.

[Canarygirl]

I think a peristaltic pump system would provide the most reliability (compared to an AC Jr controlling powerheads). I believe Randy-Holmes Farley runs a continuous water change system this way.

[Doahh]

http://babelfish.yahoo.com/translate_url?doit=done&tt=url&intl=1&fr=bf-home&trurl=http%3A%2F%2Fmars.reefkeepers.net%2FArticles%2FPompeDoseuse.html&lp=fr_en&btnTrUrl=Translate

There a FOOLPROOF DIY
the servos work on rotation numbers. If you got 2 identical syringes it would be IMPOSSIBLE for it to pump two different amounts unless you had it set wrong

And its a whopping $30 to $50

[OldSaltMan1]

Actually with a dual head pump with the same level switches would be the BEST way

I think you are right now! Pump water out, pump water in to the same level. Works every time!

[Doahh]

No it pumps in and out at the same exact time at the same exact rate.
Auto water changer and auto top off wouldn't affect each other at all. Salinity would never change if the water going in is the same salinity as the water going out

[OldSaltMan1]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14037701#post14037701 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Doahh
No it pumps in and out at the same exact time at the same exact rate.
Auto water changer and auto top off wouldn't affect each other at all. Salinity would never change if the water going in is the same salinity as the water going out

Are you tring to say that this is a better system that pumping out one gallon of old water and pumping in one gallon of new water?

[Doahh]

No you have to pump at the same time or else your ATO will screw everything up.
If it's just about to fill right before the AWC system does its thing the AWC will add an extra cm of water to your sump. Imagine it doing that 20 times
that's like topping off 20 times with saltwater

[OldSaltMan1]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14037789#post14037789 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Doahh
No you have to pump at the same time or else your ATO will screw everything up.
If it's just about to fill right before the AWC system does its thing the AWC will add an extra cm of water to your sump. Imagine it doing that 20 times
that's like topping off 20 times with saltwater

This has nothing to do with the ATO just forget that. This is about changing out one gallon of water.

[Doahh]

Yes it does.
With your system if the ATO is just about to do its thing that means the water level has dropped about 1cm
if you do the AWC thing the AWC has now basically topped off instead of the ATO so you have practically topped off with salt water

[stugray]

If you run the dual head peristaltic pump it will work whether the ATO wants to run or not.

Now this is assuming that the pump tubing is fine.



For the situation where we would like to use two separate pumps:

If you have one pump that pumps out 1% tank water a day ( 3 Gallons in my case ) the sump level SHOULD drop to where the ATO kicks in.

However, by the time the NEW SW pump kicks in to refill the 3 Gal, the ATO should have added a TINY amount of water.

( Important safety tip: Your ATO had better be dialed back to where it can barely keep up with evaporation! )

NOTE: that tiny amount of water will be re-evaporated before the next Auto-WC.



Okay - Now we see how dependability is important.
If you were to use just timers & no smarts, then - If the OUT pump works, but the IN does not, then the ATO will replace the 3 gallons and eventual dilution will occur.

the IN pump works, but the OUT does not, then the sump will could overflow or the salinity could just keep rising.

That is why I stated that you must have the limit switches.
If the OUT pump kicks in & the water doesnt drop quickly enough - theres a problem - Stop program.

If the IN pump kicks in & the water doesnt rise quickly enough - theres a problem - Stop program.




IMO - my thought is THE BEST Auto-WC system would be:

A dual head peristaltic pump that empties your skimmer cup when it reaches a certain level & replaces the water that it takes out with new SW.


Stu

[oldsaltman]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14037826#post14037826 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Doahh
Yes it does.
With your system if the ATO is just about to do its thing that means the water level has dropped about 1cm
if you do the AWC thing the AWC has now basically topped off instead of the ATO so you have practically topped off with salt water

Sorry, but you don't know what my ATO does. I have been using this system for several years and it works for me!

[Doahh]

You water level HAS to fluctuate at least a LITTLE

[oldsaltman]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14038105#post14038105 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Doahh
You water level HAS to fluctuate at least a LITTLE

OK, OK, OK, so where does you saltwater come from in you plan? Are you saying that yours does not fluctuate? You still must pull saltwater from somewhere to make your system work?

[Doahh]

No it goes in and out at the SAME TIME
how yours works if it activates right before your auto to poff goes into effect it will fool the top off into thinking that it actually did what it was supposed to but in actuality it did it with SALTWATER
with matched pumps it goes in and out at the same time so the water level DOES NOT CHANGE ONE BIT from the AWC

[oldsaltman]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14038198#post14038198 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Doahh
No it goes in and out at the SAME TIME
how yours works if it activates right before your auto to poff goes into effect it will fool the top off into thinking that it actually did what it was supposed to but in actuality it did it with SALTWATER
with matched pumps it goes in and out at the same time so the water level DOES NOT CHANGE ONE BIT from the AWC

Sorry, wrong again. My ATO runs every few minutes and only drops a few ml in the tank at any one time. But I bet you don't even have an AutoChange system!

[Doahh]

Wow so if your evaporation rate changes your ATO screws everything up
Smart move

[oldsaltman]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14038245#post14038245 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Doahh
Wow so if your evaporation rate changes your ATO screws everything up
Smart move

OK, I don't know what this means, but I know my system works so good luck on yours!

[iamwrasseman]

with the medical unit i would believe that they are acurate to a high percentage say 99% if so in a few months that could equate to a couple of gallons and that simply would be unsafe at best . you probably would still monitor the salinity and the sump fill heighth so its still unacceptable as far as set it and forget it would go . i just havent seen a system that would do this 100 % , accurate ,noy to say that there isnt a product that would do it .i just like the time that i spend on this is also associated with the checks and balances that are necessary to properly maintain such peramiters.again im not saying that it cant be done though. i just havent seen it yet but im still learning every day!

[Doahh]

a dual head pump would be 100% accurate

[oldsaltman]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14038422#post14038422 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Doahh
a dual head pump would be 100% accurate

Do you have an automated water change system that works?

[Doahh]

Why would that matter?
a dual head peristaltic pump would take in exactly the same amount on both channels

[oldsaltman]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14038464#post14038464 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by oldsaltman
Do you have an automated water change system that works?

I guess that answers the question. When you design one and get it to work let us know how you like it. Like I said mine works fine.

[DaveMorris]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14033747#post14033747 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Reefugee
That's one LAZY reefer! What next? If he automates his tank too much, he might actually have to spend some time with his family. :lol:

You know, some of us need to automate things on our tank for a very legitimate reason, such as work taking us out of town for several days at a time. Automation also leads to far better stability than your non-automated human maintenance regimen allows for. A human reefer will never be able to have the same level of stability and regularity that an automated system does. I do 50g water changes on my 400g system and although I did not automate it, I did make it as simple as shutting down the return pumps and skimmers, opening a drain valve, closing the drain valve when the sump is drained, and then opening another valve on my saltwater reservoir. That way it is easy enough for me to have no excuse to blow it off, but still prompts me to do the task and check/clean the equipment side of things on a regular basis.

My Reefkeeper Elite system does all of the automation that I need and is only getting more powerful. I wwould not have a tank up and running without a controller because of my work schedule. SO automation for me is what allows my family and I the enjoyment of a 300g display tank.

[oldsaltman]

That is the Point!

[stugray]

oldsaltman,

Do you even know what a dual head peristaltic pump IS?

http://www.masterflex.com/catalog/product_view.asp?sku=7720250

They also make them where you can "stack" the heads.

Stu

[oldsaltman]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14038936#post14038936 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by stugray
oldsaltman,

Do you even know what a dual head peristaltic pump IS?

Stu

Is that the point here? Is it time to jump on me now for offering up a good, cheap reliable water change system? OK I give up now.

[stugray]

oldsaltman

"Is it time to jump on me now "

I just asked a question.

Stu

[RyanEG]

Fellas their is no need to get testy, there are 99 ways to kill a cat. They might not all work in the same fashion but the end result it the same. Every system on this thread WILL work it all depends on what the ORIGINAL poster chooses or prefers. No need for bickering.

[Doahh]

Hes arguing that a pump guaranteed to pump the exact same amount on both channels won't...

[RyanEG]

I understand but whats the point of arguing? Solves nothing and everyone loses interest on what could be a great thread that just got turned into a great debate over two systems that WILL work

[stugray]

I have also been arguing that both systems will work.

One ( the peristaltic pump ) will work perfectly ( AND flawlessly if maint. is kept up ) but can be expensive.

The Other ( the dual pumps method ) will also work, but requires some kind of controller ( which makes it as expensive as the Per. Pump in the long run ).

Stu

[brians4671]

fellas i thank both of you. i mean perfect i have the 2 options. one more practical the other more technical.

so with a dual head peristaltic pump ill need a similar controller? http://www.robotshop.us/arduino-usb...ller-board.html

[brians4671]

http://www.robotshop.us/arduino-usb-microcontroller-board.html

[Doahh]

http://www.innovativeaquatics.com/
That is all you'd need

[iamwrasseman]

Dave morris has my applause if you look at the begining of this tread thats exactly what i was trying to point out until i got blasted by someone !yes both systems will work byt i like the whole hobby and all that goes with it ,including the maintence and up keep ,with that being said yes this is turning into an argument that i want nothing to do with . i just wanted to state my opinion and have done so , happy new year to all ! lets put this one to rest guys please !

[stugray]

I am sorry.... ( for lack of understanding )

I looked back through the thread and I fail to see where anyone ( including myself ) was being hostile.

One thing that bugs me is when people wont say WHAT it was that offended them.

Can those that were offended please explain why?



Also - No-one has commented on my idea of using the skimmer to remove the Out-going water change ( Am I supposed to be offended by the lack of comments ??? )

Stu

[therealfatman]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14037998#post14037998 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by stugray

IMO - my thought is THE BEST Auto-WC system would be:

A dual head peristaltic pump that empties your skimmer cup when it reaches a certain level & replaces the water that it takes out with new SW.


Stu

Now that is a great idea. You could then even run a wet skimmate to be sure your changing enough water daily.

I was just looking at a video on the custom Volcan protein skimmer and it uses a float in its collection cupas part of a wash down system, but somehing like that can easily be adapted to an automatic water change system as long as some safe guards were put into place.

I think I would limit the amount of time that the peristaltic pumps (ATO and water change) could run in 24 hour period by automatically shutting the skimmer power down if too much skimmate production was causing too much water change on any given day. Industrial timers can be bought that also work as elapsed time counters as well as activating relays for about the same cost as non counting timers.

[therealfatman]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14037423#post14037423 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by OldSaltMan1
I have seen this talked about several times, but I don't believe it works that way. IMO you are asking for trouble. Have you tried this on a long term basis?

I currently have over 30 automatic water change systems running on single peristaltic pumps with matching dual pump heads. Six of those units have been in use for over two years. I also have a few running with a dual channel single pump head and I have a couple different side by side tank systems that have cartridge pump heads (FOUR cartridges) run by one pump.

I however , do not use logic controllers but I instead use industrial timers.

I buy all the pumps, pump heads and timers surplus or used. A large portion of the equipment is new and in the orginal pumps. I also have owned a few of the pumps myself for over 15 years so I know they hold up very well. I have seen laboratory grade perisytaltic pumps and pumps heads that are very, very old that are still in use.

I have pump heads that will pump as little as 0.06 ml per minute or large ones that will pump up to 17 liters per minute.

The pump tubing can run up to or above a few dollars a foot though and most sizes are not avialable but through retailers. Pumping salt water and RODI water they will last years per piece when used only minutes per day. Each pump only needs a piece of tubing about a foot long.

Seeing Stu's suggestion for a skimmate level controlled automatic water change system is giving me food for though about some changes in my controls however.

[therealfatman]

ooops!

[perikaruppan]

hi friends this is a post that i did before regarding automatic water changes.

The circuit is completed and is working and the components used in the circuit are pretty cheap along with just two floats. I presumed that there is water always in the salt water can!!!..

the gist of the post: (copied, it is my post) the main post is at http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1526745

The Entire system will turn on when the power is applied to teh system, so with a switch when pressed the system will start the draining of water from the sump upto the level of the lower float and then turn off the drain pump and on the Fill pump from teh SAlt Water container and fill teh sump upto the upper float.

Since I wanted to do the circuit with the use of ONLY 2 Float Switches and I have designed the circuit using Triple input AND gates and NOT Gates as shown.

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/138557Auto_Water_Change.jpg

The upper Float (RED) is the top of the sump upto which you want the water to be re-filled, and Lower Float (GREEN) is at the near bottom of the sump upto which you want to drain the water.

The upper Float (RED) shall be ON When the water level is below, (When we switch on the ON Button, I assume the water level to be below the upper Float, so that the Circuit will turn ON), and when water level is above the Float, it is in OFF mode. The Lower Float (GREEN) works on the opposite i.e., ON When water level is above the float and OFF when water Level is below the Float.

Actually this Circuit has an undesirable state as to when the circuit is first turned ON, whether the AND gate 2 will be on or Gate 3 will be on is ambiguous as the inputs are from each other.

Hence I need to insert a DELAY Circuit at the input of GATE 3 from GATE 1. This will make the Gate 3 output as 0 and when NOTed the input to the Lower Float is 1 and AND Gate 2 Output is 1 to make the Drain pump run.

As assumed above and when the water reaches the desired levels as shown in the tabulation, first the DRAIN pump is ON, When the Water level Reaches the Lower Float, the DRAIN is OFF and FILL PUMP is ONed. Once the Water is FILLED to Upper Float, the Entire Circuit is Turned OFF and AND 1 output is 0.

When water LEVEL Changes from C to B during FILL, not the Area Marked in GREY, At this place the lower Float is in ON position, the input to the LOWER FLOAT is ZERO hence the OUTPUT into the AND GATE is ZERO.

this is the working schematic. I have not gone into the details of the RELAY Circuits as it is kinda easy. Just shown how the coils get charged.

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/138557WorkingSchematic.jpg

The circuit is the schematic of the diagram i had first posted with the gates... with the additions of the Resistor/Capacitor at AND Gate for the Time Delay to eliminate the initial redundancy.

The other two resistors at the float switches were provided as to the circuit didnt work properly if they were not there, hence i have provided them.

The ULN2004 is a Relay Driver as it helps (this is a inverted Relay Driver i.e., if the input is 1 the output is 0 and if the input is 0 the output is 1).

error in the schematic my friends... i have named the upper float as lower and lower float as upper... pardon the error

[therealfatman]

Stu

Could you explain your ideas on controls for a auto water change that replaces only the amount of water removed as skimmate. seems like it would take double floats in the skimmate cup to both turn the pump on and off that make the water change, and that the cycling at its completion would have to activate a relay to supply power to floats on your ato system that would supply power to its pump. Seems like the ATO pump could be run only immediately after each water change otherwise the ATO would replace the skimmate water as evaporated water as it accumalated. I do not think I would want to trust to using both NC and NO relays at the same time to control both pumps from one circuit.

[stugray]

therealfatman,

I already skim very wet. My collection cup holds over a half gallon & I empty it every day. ( see this thread about my regenerative skimmer: http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1289541 )

My thought was to use a float switch in the skimmer cup. My AC3 pro would monitor the skimmer & when it was full enough ( and after a preset amount of time say 24 hours ) it would open a NC valve and dump the skimmer cup to the drain.

Then the controller would turn on a peristaltic pump for a preset amount of time to dump the same amount of new SW into the sump.

Siince the ATO has been topping off as the skimmer was skimming, the new SW will overfill the sump by 1/2 gallon and the ATO will shut off until evaporation removes 1/2 Gallon.

This is currently how I run my system. I just have to manually dump in a pitcher of water every day when I empty my collection cup.




perikaruppan,

Very nice work. That is essentially exactly what I was explaining above. And as mentioned if one of the pumps fails to run ( or the SW can is empty ) you could have a problem.

Stu

[brians4671]

Stu when are you thinking of kicking this project off? Are you planning on adding a skimmer cup cleaner at the same time? you know the ones that sweep periodically and wash down the build up? would be a great project. i know that skimming that wet you may not experience as much build up but talk about aggressive skimming.

[DaveMorris]

Doesn't your skimmer vary in how much skimmate it produces based on how dirty the water gets? Or does skimming it wet keep this from happening?

[stugray]

brians4671,

I dont have any immediate plans to change anything until the spring ( I will be on business travel for two months ).
I had an idea of using a yard pop-up sprinkler to clean my skimmer cup/collection tube, but it would require a dedicated high pressure pump on a time mounted in the lid of the skimmer.


DaveMorris,

If you read the thread I posted above, my skimmer skims so wet, that the cup usually fills in about 10 hours, then I let it "regenerate" for the rest of the day untill I drain it.

I can let it sit for days & the skimmate just gets darker until I drain.

Stu

[iamwrasseman]

wow did this one get out of hand ?

[stugray]

iamwrasseman,

As I stated above ( in not exactly the same words ... ) WHERE did ANYTHING get "out of hand"?

The only way Anyone could have been offended is if someone took something completely wrong/"out of context".

Please explain.

Stu

[oldsaltman]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14038936#post14038936 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by stugray
oldsaltman,

Do you even know what a dual head peristaltic pump IS?

http://www.masterflex.com/catalog/product_view.asp?sku=7720250

They also make them where you can "stack" the heads.

Stu

This could be one place!

[stugray]

oldsaltman,

Sorry, it was a simple question that you never answered.

If you understood the concept of a peristaltic pump, you would not have tried so hard to shoot down the idea?

They are used in Dialysis machines to move blood. I believe that is good enough for water changes.

It was an honest question.

Please explain where I was being hostile or "be-littling"

Stu

[iamwrasseman]

nope not me i just thought the subject had somewhat changed no offense was meant or taken .

[brians4671]

has anyone done a self cleaning head diy project here?

[iamwrasseman]

lol im in , gotta folow that one !

[brians4671]

haha why is that does it sound like it would be complicated?

[iamwrasseman]

yes probably but i do have the time !

[perikaruppan]

Stu, thanks for the compliment
i agree with your view.. but the issue was i didnt want to take the pipes run around plug them up and turn on the pumps and do the water change...

yes, i need to check for the water in teh SW container.. but since this is going to be a 1time monthly job i felt this will make the job much easier.

i can have another float in the SW container attached it to the switch to turn off the system... but didnt want to waste a float.. just goto the tank and check out the water!!!

i prefer 50:50 automation:work.. as that was please is all about in keeping tanks.

[KingTut]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14040586#post14040586 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by therealfatman
I currently have over 30 automatic water change systems running on single peristaltic pumps with matching dual pump heads. ... I buy all the pumps, pump heads and timers surplus or used.

I like this idea! I think we've all seen these pumps in action at hospitals dosing fluids. A couple questions:

I am just setting up a small Biocube 14 gallon system. I am also using the Bicube stand and would love to devise a system of auto-topoff and auto water change. This would make it much easier to take this system to the office and keep it properly maintained.

Consider that I place 3 jugs under the tank in the stand: one to hold RO topoff water, one to hold mixed saltwater for water changes, and a 3rd to hold exchanged water from the aquarium. Can I use a double-head pump and a single-head pump under the aquarium (in the stand) to regulate both auto water change, and auto topoff (assuming the double pump for water change and the single for topoff)? Is the pump strong enough to lift the water from the reservoir up to the tank (about 3 feet)?

For the auto topoff application, would you recommend a float switch/timer combination to regulate the water flow?

[Update]

Looks like this is the general idea. I like the simplicity, but the cost is a little high unless I can find some used pumps!

Ebay topoff system (http://cgi.ebay.com/Aqua-Medic-Niveaumat-Aquarium-Auto-Top-off-System-78015_W0QQitemZ250335881238QQihZ015QQcategoryZ46312QQtcZphotoQQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1742.m153.l126 2)


Thanks!

[KingTut]

Sorry for the double-post. One more question. Do you have some good sources for salvaged / used pumps? I just tried ebay and don't see anything reasonable. They are all $300+ and appear to be new.

[stugray]

Search ebay for "masterflex".

And the answer is yes to all of your questions above.
The Peri. Pumps can pump to a very high head height.

Do some research at the masterflex website.
I use the silicone precision tubing in the pump I bought, and it only lasts about a week.

I hear that the tygon tubing with the non-precision head lasts for over a year. You want the "easy-load II" head.

Stu

[brians4671]

can someone sum up these options for me. im still trying to sort these ideas. will the first option be plug and play? will any additional pumps be needed for the auto w/c?http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/LiterMeter-III/c68/index.html
http://www.innovativeaquatics.com/
with this option ill need this controler correct? what benefit will this setup offer?
http://www.masterflex.com/catalog/product_view.asp?sku=7720250
http://www.robotshop.us/arduino-usb-microcontroller-board.html

[Doahh]

The litermiter would need an extra pump and it would be plug and play
Innovative aquatics would be plug and play

lol that robot controller was another idea. The French website with the RC servos modified with syringes Major DIY

with the Masterflex you would just need your pump head and the motor to drive it

[Doahh]

Oh and someone correct me if Im wrong but this would work?
Ebay item number 390020720664

[iamwrasseman]

i think thease units will work to a certain extent but if hoses wear out or get clogged with different mixes going through them wont it ruin what your whole tank ? thats my only drawback cause if thease pump devices are off by 1% in a week that 7% and so on down the line .then you still have to check and balance yourself anyway .the idea is great i must admitt but just a little scary for me .if anyone sets and never checks and adjusts and also maintains thease pumps then it will reek havok on the tanks peramiters thus making more wouk and adjustments .in a perfect world they are probably great ,but who lives there? i am sorry to cast any doubt on this tread that so many people are diligently trying to explain but i just dont see it working 100% . maybe next year i will understand better and put one on my systems cause believe me if the will work i will definatly be doing it as you can see the amount of tanks i have is 17 at the present time . keep up the great tread cause i surely open minded and am paying attention to your every word !

[Doahh]

Wow
IT IS PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE for a dual channel pump to pump two different speeds!

[brians4671]

Doah thanks for the feedback. are you using the nautilis for your WC's? How long have you had it set up? i spoke with Dan Furnman regarding the Nautilis. Im convinced I can make this foulproof.

[oldsaltman]

I know that everyone has something they think will work! This can be done for less than $100 and it is easy, accurate and the design I posted is working. It is not a matter of if it will work. It may not look as sexy as buying controllers etc. so that is an option. As I said before I plan to use my new Aquacontroller to do this soon. The rest of the tanks, pumps and hoses are already there.

[iamwrasseman]

im not saying two different speeds but if you hooked two lines up to it and ran 100 gallons of water through each they would be exacyly 100 gallons ? within a half pint or so but we are dosing with them and maybe im just out of my league ,who knows i really am not trying to create am argument i just deal with real world machinery alot and truly understand tolerences etc . so each unit probably puts out a small peccentage different unless you spend zillions of dollars ,not the stuff found on ebay or recycled crap. just MY opinion .

[Doahh]

they may not be exactly 100 gallons but they will be exactly the same no matter which line
Tha'ts the point of a 2 channel pump

[Doahh]

http://babelfish.yahoo.com/translate_url?doit=done&tt=url&intl=1&fr=bf-home&trurl=http%3A%2F%2Fmars.reefkeepers.net%2FArticles%2FPompeDoseuse.html&lp=fr_en&btnTrUrl=Translate

Cheap and it will pump exactly the same amount per channel no matter what. plus nothing will wear out. Possibly the motor but that's it. You don't even need the complex controller he has just run it on a timer

[oldsaltman]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14052553#post14052553 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Doahh
http://babelfish.yahoo.com/translate_url?doit=done&tt=url&intl=1&fr=bf-home&trurl=http%3A%2F%2Fmars.reefkeepers.net%2FArticles%2FPompeDoseuse.html&lp=fr_en&btnTrUrl=Translate

Cheap and it will pump exactly the same amount per channel no matter what. plus nothing will wear out. Possibly the motor but that's it. You don't even need the complex controller he has just run it on a timer

Do you sell these? How much are they?

[Doahh]

Its a DIY and it'll run you about $30 to build

[iamwrasseman]

ok so the hoses that need to be replaced that would only last a week as per quote were replaced with the hoses that would need to be replaced in a year are dependable ?when they wear out that time span is predictable ? this is what i am talking about .you cant 100%depend on them, but i will dose every day and if i miss a day no problem at least im putting the correct amount in when i do it . if the hose "wears out " is the auto top off gonna be correct or is the dosing gonna be right? simply stated by others above that they are maintence items that may be usefull buy they need to be checked from time to time .

[Doahh]

The DIY version has nothing that can wear out.
These servos are incredibly durable

[iamwrasseman]

cool i am almost convinced ,lol i have just seen so many things fail in my life and if i dose and top off i know i wont .unless i really screw up . i think im all worn out from this one ,time for a vacation . maybe i'll just sits and thinks ? my mind is still open to this cause it would be cool ,i just like the hands on approach and enjoy all aspects of reef keeping . a large amount of info on this subject was covered very well i must admitt . happy new year to all of ya !

[therealfatman]

The problem with syringe pumps system is in that they have small capacities which would pretty much limit then to use for supplementation purposes on low demand systems. It would be a very small display tank that would use such a small enough amount of water daily for replacement of evaporated water. A peristaltic pump and two heads or a two channel head can supply the needs of any size tank likely to be found in a private home or small bussiness as its only real limit is what ever size water tank you use.

An average Masterflex pump (L/S type) pump capability starts at 0.06 ml per minute and the larger pumps (I/P type) can pump at a rate up to about 3.5 gallons per minute. They even make smaller pumps. The typical L/S pump can pump up against up to 30 foot of water head pressure and can draw any low viscosity fluid up to 29 or 30 feet. A simple set of float valves for an ATO system triggering a relay or a timer for a automatic water changer is all that the pump needs for controls. An industrial grade automation timer can be bought easily on ebay or at any number of surplus electronics firms for about the cost of a coralife timer. They can be set for running periods of as little of one second. They can be set to repeat or performmany different ways and display digitally. They use but a a few watts.

The Masterflex Pumps have very low power usage. The small single sped pumps that sell cheaply use less than 25 watts. The larger pumps use 75 watts. The really large pumps vary graetly but are stlllow wattage as they are gear drive units.

The Masterflex peristaltic equipment will typically out last the years an average person will stay in the hobby. Cole-Parmer bought Barnant Company the US company that produces the Masterflex pumps. Cole-Parmer made the purchase in 1960 and has been selling the pumps readily since then, and there are even Masterflex pumps prior to the 1960 buy out that are still in use today. I have three pumps in use made in 1973. In over thirty-five years of using Masterflex pumps I have never had a pump motor go bad and have only replaced thre pump head bearings at a cost of less than $10. Thererefore an expectation of being able to use a Masterflex pump for three or four decades would not be an unreasonable expectation.

They are all made with at least three rollers so back siphoning is not an issue. The pump heads have rollers and rotors that are made of cold rolled steel or stainless steel and use bearings not cheap brass bushings. Even the best equipment made specifically for the aquarium trade has bearing made of aluminum and lightweight low voltage motors, most aquarium trade peristaltic pumps use only two rollers (therefore they can back siphon) and have rollers made of plastic.

This is all the pump that you would need to run an ATO or a autotop off system. As long as the the single speed pump of this type 7543-XX has a 01 through 30 for the XX it will run two heads at a time.

http://cgi.ebay.com/MASTERFLEX-pump-drive-1-RPM-cole-parmer-p-n-7543-01_W0QQitemZ250328598681QQcmdZViewItemQQptZBI_Pumps?_trksid=p3286.m20.l1116

[james3370]

didn't read thru all the posts, but my idea would be this.....

* figure out how long it takes whatever pump you want to use...say a mag5...to pump 10% of your tank's volume
* place that pump in your return section of the sump & plumb the output to a trash can or some drain line
* place the same type pump in another ATO reservoir plumbed back to the sump return section
* make a program in an aquacontroller or reefkeeper at some point during the night to:
(1) turn off the main pump
(2) run the sump drain pump for the "X" amount of time to drain the 10% volume
(3) turn that pump off & then turn the ato pump on for the same amount of time
(4) turn that pump off & turn the main pump back on

[iamwrasseman]

here we go , this has been my point . due to different head pressures in the two pumps and due the the variences due to tolerences in the pumps there will be a slight difference to the amount of water pumped out werses the amount or water pumped back in .you should read this entire tread and you will see that you need a different type of pump to even be close to doing this for a prolonged period without emptying or overflowing your sump . the tanks that you have listed are small and i would assume that the sumps are equally smaller so if a mag 5 has a tolerance in pumping value .say 2 % in a few days this would lead to disaster . read the whole tread and be particular in the types and styles of the pumps that are being used and thier timing systems ,it has to be precise to even come close .

[brians4671]

agreed, i am convinced a digital dosing pumps' accuracy would be preferred. not to mention the rate can be slowed to such a point any failure could be caught. I LOVE IT!

the durability of these hoses used has been mentioned a couple times. what type is preffered? the site offers these http://www.innovativeaquatics.com/Pages/access.html

[iamwrasseman]

next

[Doahh]

"The problem with syringe pumps system is in that they have small capacities which would pretty much limit then to use for supplementation purposes on low demand systems. It would be a very small display tank that would use such a small enough amount of water daily for replacement of evaporated water. A peristaltic pump and two heads or a two channel head can supply the needs of any size tank likely to be found in a private home or small bussiness as its only real limit is what ever size water tank you use."

I wasnt arguing that a peristaltic pump wouldn't work I was saying this would be the next best thing and cheap too. I already have 2 modified servos so I'm gonna try it anyways

Yes the capacities are small.
A servo runs about 30 revolutions per minute and if you had a 4 ml syringe on there you'd be pumping 120 ml/m. Thats nearly 2 gallons in an hour. Say you had a system that needed a 60 gallon water change every week

that would be about 8.57142857 gallons or 32,446.3867
if you were pumping constantly you would only need to do 50 ml/h or .8 ml/m

[therealfatman]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14055512#post14055512 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by brians4671
agreed, i am convinced a digital dosing pumps' accuracy would be preferred. not to mention the rate can be slowed to such a point any failure could be caught. I LOVE IT!

the durability of these hoses used has been mentioned a couple times. what type is preffered? the site offers these http://www.innovativeaquatics.com/Pages/access.html

I would not consider buying tubing from the site you posted a link for. The first tubing shown is a standard recipient set (Intravenous tubing set). It is vinyl. Very cheap and available at any medical supply store that rents hospital beds, wheel chairs and portable oxygen tanks etc. It will last a few weeks. The silicone is relatively cheap and is sold a lot cheaper at other sites in 25 foot coils. The "longest lasting tubing they show is either Pharmed or Norprene. It costs retail about $4 per foot. The tubing on each end of the good tubing is chaeap vinyl tubing. Both are long lasting in that they stand up to pump mechanical abuse. They do not stand up to kalkwasser as well as would be preferred. It is quite a bit cheaper on other sites than the site you give the link to.

This is the site where the majority of people buy tubing for laboratory and medical pumps. the actual link here is for the longest lasting tubing in the size you would likely use for a medical dozing pump. Down the page a liitle it wils have some links. One will say Istamec Tubing selection guide. Use that link and it will atke you to a page that has a chart with tubing life expectancies. It will give a time in hours. That is the actual number of hours the pump is running. A minute a day of use will take two months for an hour and the longest lasting tubing lasts for 1400 hours. So one minute a day would mean a tubing that would last over 200 years. However this is based upon tubing wear from the pumps mechanical action. It does not take fluid within the tubing and its affect into account. Kalkwasser kills tubing pretty quickly. RODI water for an ATO would probably not shorten the life span. Sadly the tubings that hold up best to the harshest chemical bases and acids have the shortest tubing hour numbers, but at a few minutes a day the tubing will still be economical. Regardless of which tubing type you buy a package or coil will probably last you for many years.

http://www.masterflex.com/catalog/product_view.asp?sku=9571348

I bought five packages of the tubing shown on the above link on ebay for $35 plus postage.

[brians4671]

thanks a bunch therealfatman for the link and detailed advice.