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View Full Version : Quarantining ICH = Waste of Time and Fish


kernyboy
12/30/2008, 03:13 PM
Um, i went from spots going away in my display tank and otherwise eating and healthy fish...to moving them to a 29 gallon QT, to having them all die. Thanks Reef Central!

I guess if they're healthy...eating, and fine. The ICH will eventually go away on their own. If your fish are fine and eating with ICH...and its starting to go away...LEAVE THEM BE!! DO NOT Stress them out by putting them in a QT tank!!

I repeat...DO NOT!

Shewillbemine
12/30/2008, 03:17 PM
Sux that you think Reef Central is responsible for your dead fish.

Sorry to hear about your loss.

mb167204
12/30/2008, 03:20 PM
how did you remove the fish. Chasing them with a net? If so this might have been what stressed your fish out.
Why dont you take a few minutes and tell us the complete story so we can see what may have gone wrong.
i.e: how did you set up your QT.
Was the QT seeded
what were your parameters in teh QT and how often did you perform water changes?

kernyboy
12/30/2008, 03:24 PM
I waited til the fish were asleep...and netted. i used water from my DT. Added copper. So all the water params were stable since it was DT water. I lowered the salinity to 1.020. Raised the temp to 82 degrees. All was well for about a day.

I initially had my fish in a 10 gallon tank. Then I moved everything to a 30 gallon (again using DT water).

Everything was ok, then things started dying. All my params were where they were supposed to be

Ammonia :0
Nitrate: 0
ph:8.2
salinity: 1.020 (i lowered it)
copper: 0.25
temp:84

Sk8r
12/30/2008, 03:25 PM
Sorry to hear that, Kernyboy. I know it hurts and you're upset, but there are just too many parameters/variables unexplained here; sometimes, indeed, there is stress involved in a move: less if you use the same water. Did you medicate? What did you use? So many questions. But remember we're all hobbyists here, we make no money from advising you based on our experience, have no other motive than the desire to help other reefers, and we are very, very sorry that you got a bad result. Sometimes ich does remit for a while. Sometimes that remission is very brief. Sometimes not. But if you would fill out your Profile including tank specs and other data the advice given could be much more complete and on target.

kernyboy
12/30/2008, 03:35 PM
On

I used SeaCure Copper solution. its 1 drop per gallon. I have a few fish left in my tank, that I think I'll just freezer method to save them a nice slow death.

kernyboy
12/30/2008, 03:38 PM
not responsible, but a contributing factor. I think sometimes it best to leave well enough alone. Alot of the measures for ich seemed to very alarmist and point to immediate QT. But I've learned to take a wait and see approach. I.e. if your fish is starting to shape up, no need to QT right away.

I mean, a healthy fish is strong enough to beat ich right?

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14043819#post14043819 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Shewillbemine
Sux that you think Reef Central is responsible for your dead fish.

Sorry to hear about your loss.

Kieth71
12/30/2008, 03:45 PM
What kind of fish and how many did you put in a 30g tank?Just because the fish looked better in the display does not mean the parasite is gone.Ich will never be gone from your display unless treated or left without fish.These fish could have been in trouble already and maybe moving them pushed them over the edge but doing nothing they may have all died as well.This is the reason to qt before the fish go in the display.I have never used the copper you used since i use cupramine but the copper lvl seems quite high at 0.25..cupramine lvls are kept at 0.5 and as low as 0.2 and is still effective.

kernyboy
12/30/2008, 03:50 PM
I had a Tang, two clown, 4 chromis a sixline wrasse, a watchman goby


The sixline and the watchman I couldnt catch, so i left those in the display tank.

My Tang, I had for a few weeks ich free. And he was QT when I bought him. My LFS qurantines fish before purchase.

He came down with ICH, had it for a few days. It went away. Then I noticed my sixline scratching againts rocks etc.

kernyboy
12/30/2008, 03:52 PM
should i uthanize (msp) my remaining fish?

mutateddogbone
12/30/2008, 03:57 PM
you cant blame reef central for losing your fish. we're not the ones who caught and put the fish in the QT. if you were at all iffy about anything you read on the forums, then visit your LFS. you might have also wanted to do a little more gradual medication in your QT than a sudden drop in salinity, smaller tank, and garunteed stress from moving from tank to tank. you could have also tried a cleaner shrimp to help control ich. if there was a proper QT procedure before putting the fish in the tank in the first place you probably would have never had an ich outbreak in the first place..

Kieth71
12/30/2008, 04:08 PM
Yes if you read about ich you will see that the parasite drops off the fish in one stage but it is far from gone from the tank.That is alot of fish for a 30g tank although in the situation your in you didnt have alot of great options other then maybe buying some rubbermaid containers to devide the fish up more.I would rip my tank apart to get out the remaining fish and try and qt them.I would either do hypo or copper not both at the same time as that is bad and makes the copper toxic.Leave the display tank fishless for 6-8 weeks then make sure you qt each fish added(even though your lfs qt's the fish they were not ich free if it got in your tank).That is what i would do but its your decision.

Sk8r
12/30/2008, 04:14 PM
Don't euthanize your fish. If they're fine, they'll be fine. If they aren't fine, there's a chance they'll recover.

do not do hypo (lowering salinity) AND copper at the same time. This may be one major source of stress. Make all environmental changes very slowly, over a period of hours.

Feed Formula One Sinking Pellet with Garlic. Garlic isn't a cure but it seems to help fish build their slime coat.

jenglish
12/30/2008, 04:15 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14043866#post14043866 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kernyboy
I waited til the fish were asleep...and netted. i used water from my DT. Added copper. So all the water params were stable since it was DT water. I lowered the salinity to 1.020. Raised the temp to 82 degrees. All was well for about a day.

I initially had my fish in a 10 gallon tank. Then I moved everything to a 30 gallon (again using DT water).

Everything was ok, then things started dying. All my params were where they were supposed to be

Ammonia :0
Nitrate: 0
ph:8.2
salinity: 1.020 (i lowered it)
copper: 0.25
temp:84
first of all I am sorry to hear about your loss

DO NOT i repeat DO NOT combine lowering salinity with copper. THis is nearly guaranteed to kill a healthy fish, much less one already stressed enough to show visible ich. Copper is toxic, copper treatment is based on finding the sweet spot that your fish will survive and ich will not. Lowering salinity is doing the same thing. Combining them makes it very hard to guess where this sweet spot is going to be.

To answer another question fish will not cure themselves of ich. I am of the opinion any tank that gets ich should be treated. But the amount of fish you had in your 10 gallon QT was very high and quite high even for your 29. In most cases you are better off doing nursing work (perfect conditions) to stabalize fish to the point they show no visible signs of ich before doing doctoring work of treatment.

I think that the experience you had is not uncommon and leads many people to the garlic feeding, maintaining conditions and cleaner shrimp/wrasses regimen (which I believe cannot even get to the ich). this is not the long term strategy I would reccomend but that is just my humble opinion.

Freed
12/30/2008, 04:21 PM
First, sorry to hear about your losses.

2nd---Never ever think for one minute the LFS actually QTd/s the fish while in their posession. Most if not all of their tanks are interconnected with every other tank AND they usually throw numerous other fish in that same "system" every week. Even if they claim they QT their fish they could only be using minimal copper levels or even minimal hyposalinity so they can say they QT'd them.

This is another example of the importance of QTing ALL new arrivals that are WET. Fish, coral, inverts, etc.

Toddrtrex
12/30/2008, 04:21 PM
What were you using for biological filtration in the QT tank? That is a lot of fish all of a sudden into a 30 gallon, if the filter wasn't seeded, that would be a big issue.

Also, any type of water movement? Again, a lot of fish for a 30, could have been 02 issues.

kernyboy
12/30/2008, 04:28 PM
Thats funny, I was going off of the ICH sticky in the newby forum. you know, the one. If im not mistaken, it says you should lower the salinity and add copper? Did I misread? Is this mis-information?


<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14044217#post14044217 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jenglish
first of all I am sorry to hear about your loss

DO NOT i repeat DO NOT combine lowering salinity with copper. THis is nearly guaranteed to kill a healthy fish, much less one already stressed enough to show visible ich. Copper is toxic, copper treatment is based on finding the sweet spot that your fish will survive and ich will not. Lowering salinity is doing the same thing. Combining them makes it very hard to guess where this sweet spot is going to be.

To answer another question fish will not cure themselves of ich. I am of the opinion any tank that gets ich should be treated. But the amount of fish you had in your 10 gallon QT was very high. In most cases you are better off doing nursing work (perfect conditions) to stabalize fish to the point they show no visible signs of ich before doing doctoring work of treatment.

I think that the experience you had is not uncommon and leads many people to the garlic feeding, maintaining conditions and cleaner shrimp/wrasses regimen (which I believe cannot even get to the ich). this is not the long term strategy I would reccomend but that is just my humble opinion.

kernyboy
12/30/2008, 04:30 PM
water under the bridge now. I now have 2 fish left in my DT tank. i'm going to catch them and call it a day. And leave my tank empty for 2 months

jenglish
12/30/2008, 04:38 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14044295#post14044295 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kernyboy
Thats funny, I was going off of the ICH sticky in the newby forum. you know, the one. If im not mistaken, it says you should lower the salinity and add copper? Did I misread? Is this mis-information?

perhaps it is not clear as it is all listed under "procedures" but these are 2 seperate treatments that should not be combined. It is not meant to be an "and" treatment but I can understand how it could be read that way.

I would not honestly use a copper treatment and stick to hyposalinity procedures. Since hyposalinity does not effect rocks for some its an option to remove inverts from the DT and use it in larger systems where a hospital tank of adequate size in not practical. It also does not leave a residue in the tank that prevents it form being used for inverts later. Hypo is not w/o it's risks as well.

Kieth71
12/30/2008, 04:43 PM
I am again very sorry that you lost your fish.Qting and treating fish can be a tough thing to get right.It is a necessary skill and is not as easy as some make it out to be.You had alot stacked against you and i can understand your frustration.I am sure there are many here that have lost fish in qt or when trying to treat sick fish(i know i have) but hopefully it will make you better prepared should a bad situation arise in the future.

Sk8r
12/30/2008, 04:44 PM
I just checked. There are several treatments listed. They should be done singly, not in combination. Your .25 copper dose was correct, but osmotic shock (salinity change) in combo with the copper is a problem. I would recommend, personally, that in any future incidence you go with the lowered salinity readings as the treatment: I think it's gentler on the fish than the copper.

Freed
12/30/2008, 04:49 PM
I agree with hypo instead of copper. Hypo IS just too easy. Get your water down to 1.009 over a couple of days, mark your tank with a pen or felt tip marker at the level you have the topped off tank water at and then add fresh water to that same level a couple of times a day to replace evaporated water. Check the salinity a couple of times a week and that's all you have to do. It really IS too easy to do.

kernyboy
12/30/2008, 07:07 PM
Can you do hypo with coral and inverts in your tank. Yes/no?

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14044405#post14044405 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Sk8r
I just checked. There are several treatments listed. They should be done singly, not in combination. Your .25 copper dose was correct, but osmotic shock (salinity change) in combo with the copper is a problem. I would recommend, personally, that in any future incidence you go with the lowered salinity readings as the treatment: I think it's gentler on the fish than the copper.

TitusvileSurfer
12/30/2008, 07:16 PM
That is a grey area but I am going to say no.

Playa-1
12/30/2008, 07:18 PM
No

kernyboy
12/30/2008, 07:21 PM
So just leave the display tank with the two fish in it and just leave it be?

Playa-1
12/30/2008, 07:54 PM
Well If you want ICH out of the DT, you will need to pull all the fish out of the tank and let it run fishless for a couple of months.
That will break the life cycle of the ICH and then your fish can be returned to the DT. That's assuming that what your actually dealing with is ICH. That's another issue with not using a good QT program up front.

The best policy is to use a good QT and acclimation program to keep disease and parasites out of the DT in the first place. It's not always easy to identify what your dealing with once you let it loose in the DT. It's much easier to take a proactive approach and deal with this stuff before it makes it to the DT.

discusone
12/30/2008, 07:54 PM
kernyboy,
Also sorry about the losses.There are many opnions and schools
of thought here on RC.So,blame some,many,or none,but not all RC members,please.
Keep in mind,the idea of QT is to do it before the fish go into the DT,not after.The QT is to prevent disease entering the tank in the first place.Take a deep breath.

discusone
12/30/2008, 07:56 PM
Ya,what Playa-1 said.

kernyboy
12/30/2008, 08:01 PM
Thanks. But now that my fist are dead... I need help from the folks who've dealt with this. So...before I do anything, my next steps should be:

1.) Catch the existing fish.
2.) Transfer existing water into a 10 gallon QT
3.) Put them in a QT Tank.
4.) Do nothing.

5.) Slowly drop the salinity to 1.020

eventually drop the salinity to 1.009

leave tank at this salinity for a month.

6.) Transfer fish back to display tank


Can somone please verify this as the proper course of action. thanks.

I'm down, but not out :\

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14045666#post14045666 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by discusone
kernyboy,
Also sorry about the losses.There are many opnions and schools
of thought here on RC.So,blame some,many,or none,but not all RC members,please.
Keep in mind,the idea of QT is to do it before the fish go into the DT,not after.The QT is to prevent disease entering the tank in the first place.Take a deep breath.

jbird69
12/30/2008, 08:04 PM
As a new member of RC and a long time member of several other forums (different hobby) I am very impressed with how civil this thread has remained...

Bravo RC members!

Jay

kernyboy
12/30/2008, 08:08 PM
you live and you learn. I'm not going to start flaming people or anything, I just want what we all want. good solid info. We learn from each other. My mistakes can help someone else and so fort.

I've learned alot on this forum, I had a bad experience with ICH...I'd like to learn from it :)

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14045742#post14045742 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jbird69
As a new member of RC and a long time member of several other forums (different hobby) I am very impressed with how civil this thread has remained...

Bravo RC members!

Jay

jenglish
12/30/2008, 08:10 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14045663#post14045663 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Playa-1
Well If you want ICH out of the DT, you will need to pull all the fish out of the tank and let it run fishless for a couple of months.
That will break the life cycle of the ICH and then your fish can be returned to the DT. That's assuming that what your actually dealing with is ICH. That's another issue with not using a good QT program up front.

The best policy is to use a good QT and acclimation program to keep disease and parasites out of the DT in the first place. It's not always easy to identify what your dealing with once you let it loose in the DT. It's much easier to take a proactive approach and deal with this stuff before it makes it to the DT.

+1, FWIW 99.9% of marine ich infestations will complete their cycle within 60 days. The longest I have heard of is 72 days but thats very much an outlier, 7 days is the shortest I have heard. there is going to be variability (usually in a bell curve distribution) in any organism.

Kerny, yes hypo for a month at 1.009 will get the ich on the fish and the above time periods of fallow for the DT. You will want a refractometer that is recently calibrated to do this. You will also want to raise your salinity just as slowly back in the hospital before transferring back to DT.

At this point I would consider gettting some kind of sponge filter seeded w/ bacteria from your DT and have the hospital tank up, cycled and stable before moving the fish. There is no need to rush this at this point.

kernyboy
12/30/2008, 08:13 PM
Ok, I will try this. I will get the QT tank up again. I'll stick with the 10 Gallon since they're small fish. How do I seed the sponge filter? And how long do i let it cycle for.


<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14045785#post14045785 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jenglish
+1, FWIW 99.9% of marine ich infestations will complete their cycle within 60 days. The longest I have heard of is 72 days but thats very much an outlier, 7 days is the shortest I have heard. there is going to be variability (usually in a bell curve distribution) in any organism.

Kerny, yes hypo for a month at 1.009 will get the ich on the fish and the above time periods of fallow for the DT. You will want a refractometer that is recently calibrated to do this. You will also want to raise your salinity just as slowly back in the hospital before transferring back to DT.

At this point I would consider gettting some kind of sponge filter seeded w/ bacteria from your DT and have the hospital tank up, cycled and stable before moving the fish. There is no need to rush this at this point.

Sk8r
12/30/2008, 08:17 PM
What species are surviving at this point? I would say, yes, proceed with hypo. I don't know of a fish it is inappropriate for, but some react badly to copper.

To answer a prior question, hypo kills no-see-ums, very small things, and I do not know for certain, but it would very likely kill all invertebrates, and possibly work some harm on your sandbed bacteria which you worked so hard to cycle. Many medicines and treatments are gauged to kill the pest before they kill the patient, so there is always a bit of danger: slow change is gentlest and best as a general rule. Salinity changes are roughest on gastropods and shelled creatures, and evidently on the ich parasite. Proceed with hypo as laid out in the Ich post instructions, and just go slowly with all changes unless instructed to the contrary.

kernyboy
12/30/2008, 08:19 PM
Sixline wrasse, (has a bunch of spots on him) and a watchman goby. Both are lighting fast.


<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14045831#post14045831 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Sk8r
What species are surviving at this point? I would say, yes, proceed with hypo. I don't know of a fish it is inappropriate for, but some react badly to copper.

To answer a prior question, hypo kills no-see-ums, very small things, and I do not know for certain, but it would very likely kill all invertebrates, and possibly work some harm on your sandbed bacteria which you worked so hard to cycle. Many medicines and treatments are gauged to kill the pest before they kill the patient, so there is always a bit of danger: slow change is gentlest and best as a general rule. Salinity changes are roughest on gastropods and shelled creatures, and evidently on the ich parasite. Proceed with hypo as laid out in the Ich post instructions, and just go slowly with all changes unless instructed to the contrary.

Sk8r
12/30/2008, 08:26 PM
I don't know about your wrasse---I'm not good with them---but the watchman will happily eat Formula One Sinking Pellet with Garlic---easy to get food to him, though he's usually a detritus eater.. The good news is, gobies are pretty resistent to ich, so he may never actually come down with it (thick slime coat). I'll bet your wrasse will eat those pellets, too. Probably the 'fine' size for him. And while garlic is no cure, it will perk up appetites. Just think of it as a period of getting to know your fish up close and personal: give them some pvc pipe to hide in ( no sand in a qt) and just keep testing for nitrate, ammonia, and salinity. They won't need any light while in qt: do inspect them carefully and often to watch for the progress of the infestation.

kernyboy
12/30/2008, 08:34 PM
thanks Sk8r,

I havent caught them yet. I'm trying to get them out. but its proving a P.I.T.A., I'm going to try the bottle trap and see

jenglish
12/30/2008, 08:36 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14045802#post14045802 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kernyboy
Ok, I will try this. I will get the QT tank up again. I'll stick with the 10 Gallon since they're small fish. How do I seed the sponge filter? And how long do i let it cycle for.

You want something with nitrifying bacteria on it to cycle your QT. I just put a hagen w/ a sponge on my DT for a while. Some folks use a air driven sponge in thier DT as well to get bacteria for the QT. A handful of sand or a small live rock will help seed bacteria as well. If you are not using copper a rock will not be harmed aside from some possible loss of the bacteria from the hyposalinity.

Tylt33
12/30/2008, 08:41 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14043792#post14043792 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kernyboy
Um, i went from spots going away in my display tank and otherwise eating and healthy fish...to moving them to a 29 gallon QT, to having them all die. Thanks Reef Central!

I guess if they're healthy...eating, and fine. The ICH will eventually go away on their own. If your fish are fine and eating with ICH...and its starting to go away...LEAVE THEM BE!! DO NOT Stress them out by putting them in a QT tank!!

I repeat...DO NOT!

Kerny, I have to ask this: by your logic, moving your fish to QT killed them. But now you're saying that the fish you *did not* move are dying as well, and you're considering euthanizing them. Could it be that the fish were going to die in either scenario? Correlation does not equal causation.

I had ich strike this last week too; I *did not* quarantine, and I've got 6 of my initial 15 fish left. Of the remaining 6, 2 will probably die tonight, the other 4 will be miracles if they make it the next few days. My fish were (and are) eating high quality food soaked with Garlic Extreme, Selcon, and Vita-Chem, and yet they're still dying. Ich is a nasty nasty parasite.

Tylt33
12/30/2008, 08:43 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14045911#post14045911 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Sk8r
I don't know about your wrasse---I'm not good with them---but the watchman will happily eat Formula One Sinking Pellet with Garlic---easy to get food to him, though he's usually a detritus eater.. The good news is, gobies are pretty resistent to ich, so he may never actually come down with it (thick slime coat). I'll bet your wrasse will eat those pellets, too. Probably the 'fine' size for him. And while garlic is no cure, it will perk up appetites. Just think of it as a period of getting to know your fish up close and personal: give them some pvc pipe to hide in ( no sand in a qt) and just keep testing for nitrate, ammonia, and salinity. They won't need any light while in qt: do inspect them carefully and often to watch for the progress of the infestation.

Two of my four Wheeler's Watchmen gobies died to ich. They died within 24 hours of eating well. My wrasse eats those pellets.

kernyboy
12/30/2008, 08:52 PM
Well, i think incorrectly QTing them sped up their deaths. Had my QT efforts gone better, I might have had a 50/50 chance of survival. I'm sure that now that there are only 2 fish left...and with the life cycle of ICH, theyre in for a BIG ich attack...

hundreds of ich cystos vs. two fish. You see where i'm going with this. lol. All these hungry critters looking for a host.

I'm kinda in a tough spot, I cant catch them...and things are getting worse.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14046067#post14046067 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Tylt33
Kerny, I have to ask this: by your logic, moving your fish to QT killed them. But now you're saying that the fish you *did not* move are dying as well, and you're considering euthanizing them. Could it be that the fish were going to die in either scenario? Correlation does not equal causation.

I had ich strike this last week too; I *did not* quarantine, and I've got 6 of my initial 15 fish left. Of the remaining 6, 2 will probably die tonight, the other 4 will be miracles if they make it the next few days. My fish were (and are) eating high quality food soaked with Garlic Extreme, Selcon, and Vita-Chem, and yet they're still dying. Ich is a nasty nasty parasite.

Tylt33
12/30/2008, 09:04 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14046166#post14046166 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kernyboy
Well, i think incorrectly QTing them sped up their deaths. Had my QT efforts gone better, I might have had a 50/50 chance of survival. I'm sure that now that there are only 2 fish left...and with the life cycle of ICH, theyre in for a BIG ich attack...

hundreds of ich cystos vs. two fish. You see where i'm going with this. lol. All these hungry critters looking for a host.

I'm kinda in a tough spot, I cant catch them...and things are getting worse.

I'm right there with you dude. My remaining two watchmen gobies are grouped with three pistol shrimp, and wrasse are wary little fish.

kernyboy
12/30/2008, 09:14 PM
yup. Its kinda sad really...watching/ knowing they're going to die. Making your best efforts to save them...and they scury off <sigh>. I made one of those bottle traps...but none of them want to go in.

nj_evoIXgsr
12/31/2008, 07:59 AM
blaming an online community for death of their fish. that's funny.

you can't just read one source and expect the world to fix your problems. it's called constantly reading. while going through ICH. i probably went through 30+ readings on how to cure and different methods plus finding the process of ICH. yet all my fish died and due to many variables that i may have done that caused the death. READING AND BEING STUPID AND NOT DOING IT TO THE EXACT STEPS is all but one's fault. it may have also been too late when you noticed your ICH.

in many readings you will read treatments are to be done seperate. plus holy crap that's a lot of fish on a 29.


don't make idiotic comments and blame the world for your own mistakes. why don't you sue REEF Central for the death of your beloved fish?

you have made such a great arguement on why they caused it's death.....




...dumb ***.

Michael
12/31/2008, 08:09 AM
i think dropping the sg to 1.020 so quickly and also adding copper at the same time all so quickly was a mistake, i also totally agree with playa 1 and his comments,its a shame your fish perished but every single reefer whether marine fresh or brackish will lose fish at some point in theyre hobby, its bound to happen, ive lost dozens over the years, one last comment, are you totally sure it was itch? got any pics of the 2 remaining with it on?

Michael
12/31/2008, 08:11 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14048515#post14048515 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by nj_evoIXgsr
blaming an online community for death of their fish. that's funny.

you can't just read one source and expect the world to fix your problems. it's called constantly reading. while going through ICH. i probably went through 30+ readings on how to cure and different methods plus finding the process of ICH. yet all my fish died and due to many variables that i may have done that caused the death. READING AND BEING STUPID AND NOT DOING IT TO THE EXACT STEPS is all but one's fault. it may have also been too late when you noticed your ICH.

in many readings you will read treatments are to be done seperate. plus holy crap that's a lot of fish on a 29.


don't make idiotic comments and blame the world for your own mistakes. why don't you sue REEF Central for the death of your beloved fish?

you have made such a great arguement on why they caused it's death.....




...dumb ***.


[chimp]


not a good first post

Indymann99
12/31/2008, 08:35 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14044308#post14044308 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kernyboy
water under the bridge now. I now have 2 fish left in my DT tank. i'm going to catch them and call it a day. And leave my tank empty for 2 months

As I see it you have 2 choices.
1. If the fish have BAD ich and are not eating (or otherwise going downhill) I would catch the 2 fish left in the DT and QT. Leave your DT fishless for 2mo and that should eradicate any ich regardless of its stage in the DT.

2. IF your fish have mild case of ich (they are still eating, not scratching excessively, ich goes away and comes back less) you can leave the fish in the DT and see if they recover. If the ich cant find a host in the swimming stage then the cycle gets broken.

I could not catch my blue hippo (the only fish that kept getting light case of ich) so I am currently in option 2. It has been 2 mo from the last signs of ich on the hippo so may have beaten the ich... only time will tell.

FYI I QT all fish for 4 weeks starting with 1.015 and working up to 1.025 (DT salinity). I can ONLY attribute the ich to the addition of a GBTA (or the LR that the nem was attached to). I did NOT QT the nem as I didnt think I had to AND my QT tank doesnt have sufficient lighting or bio filtration for a 6week nem stay.... only other change in the tank was I started feeding the nem silversides (thawed from frozen).

I find lots fo great info here on RC so I consider this a very good resource. However everybodys tanks and conditions are unique so I apply information AND my OWN logic to my specific circumstance. YMMV

WaterKeeper
12/31/2008, 08:52 AM
Kerney,

Sorry to hear about your fish and sad that you feel the sticky gives bad information. The tread is not my own personal solution that I just thought up and posted. It is based on the opinion of many respected authors on the subject and, at the moment, outlines the three proven methods for curing the disease.

Moving a fish to a hospital tank should not be that stressful. Don't forget that if the fish is wild caught it has been moved to several tanks before reaching the LFS and then your tank. The short move from the display to the hospital tank should pose far less hardship on the fish than the journey from the wild.

In the post we didn't suggest using a combination of all three methods. Only one of the three methods should be used. You said that the salinity was only reduced to 1.020 and that is not hypo, just reduced salinity. For years LFS ran tanks at a low salinity, 1.019, and routinely added copper to new arrivals. Although that practice is less common now it never created wholesale loss of livestock.

I use two terms when talking about disease prevention and control. The quarantine or Q-tank is for new arrivals and is not medicated. It is used to allow the fish an acclimation period and to provide observation before the fish enters the display. Q-tank may be a misnomer and an A-tank, acclimation tank, might be a better term.

Sick fish go into a hospital tank, H-tank, where treatment and medication is provided. It is my feeling that treatment should begin at the first signs of disease. Taking the approach of wait and see allows the disease a chance to spread and reach vital areas of the fish, usually the gill structure. Once there the use of treatment is seldom successful as the trophant is not killed during treatment and causes massive tissue damage. Once at that stage the prognosis is dire.

I'm sorry that you feel that you were mislead. If you must blame someone don't blame RC. I posted the sticky so any blame is on my shoulders. I still feel the advise given is sound and can save infected fish.

kernyboy
12/31/2008, 12:39 PM
hey...we dont flame on these boards.


<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14048515#post14048515 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by nj_evoIXgsr
blaming an online community for death of their fish. that's funny.

you can't just read one source and expect the world to fix your problems. it's called constantly reading. while going through ICH. i probably went through 30+ readings on how to cure and different methods plus finding the process of ICH. yet all my fish died and due to many variables that i may have done that caused the death. READING AND BEING STUPID AND NOT DOING IT TO THE EXACT STEPS is all but one's fault. it may have also been too late when you noticed your ICH.

in many readings you will read treatments are to be done seperate. plus holy crap that's a lot of fish on a 29.


don't make idiotic comments and blame the world for your own mistakes. why don't you sue REEF Central for the death of your beloved fish?

you have made such a great arguement on why they caused it's death.....




...dumb ***.

Sk8r
12/31/2008, 12:45 PM
We agree, kernyboy. Thank you for your temperate response.

Waterkeeper, perhaps we could insert a line in red type that just says: DO NOT COMBINE TREATMENTS. PICK ONE, based on species and your own resources, and use that only.
An excellent article, btw, and far better and more comprehensive advice than one is likely to get by eliciting post-by-post advice in a question thread. It's a very good sticky.

kernyboy
12/31/2008, 12:46 PM
Hey Waterkeeper, i dont blame you. As with anything, I may have relied too heavily on the opinions of many rather than sticking to one source. Some folks recommeded dropping the salinity slightly which i did ( to 1.020 AND adding copper), and After reading that this helps fish breath a little easier I figured, if i dropped the salinity slightly it would help.

I didnt do hypo on the fish. Just reduced the salinity slighty from my display tank and added copper. Somewhere along the line something went funky.

Maybe we can come up with a new Sticky on ICH? And make it a little clearer in steps?




<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14048740#post14048740 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by WaterKeeper
Kerney,

Sorry to hear about your fish and sad that you feel the sticky gives bad information. The tread is not my own personal solution that I just thought up and posted. It is based on the opinion of many respected authors on the subject and, at the moment, outlines the three proven methods for curing the disease.

Moving a fish to a hospital tank should not be that stressful. Don't forget that if the fish is wild caught it has been moved to several tanks before reaching the LFS and then your tank. The short move from the display to the hospital tank should pose far less hardship on the fish than the journey from the wild.

In the post we didn't suggest using a combination of all three methods. Only one of the three methods should be used. You said that the salinity was only reduced to 1.020 and that is not hypo, just reduced salinity. For years LFS ran tanks at a low salinity, 1.019, and routinely added copper to new arrivals. Although that practice is less common now it never created wholesale loss of livestock.

I use two terms when talking about disease prevention and control. The quarantine or Q-tank is for new arrivals and is not medicated. It is used to allow the fish an acclimation period and to provide observation before the fish enters the display. Q-tank may be a misnomer and an A-tank, acclimation tank, might be a better term.

Sick fish go into a hospital tank, H-tank, where treatment and medication is provided. It is my feeling that treatment should begin at the first signs of disease. Taking the approach of wait and see allows the disease a chance to spread and reach vital areas of the fish, usually the gill structure. Once there the use of treatment is seldom successful as the trophant is not killed during treatment and causes massive tissue damage. Once at that stage the prognosis is dire.

I'm sorry that you feel that you were mislead. If you must blame someone don't blame RC. I posted the sticky so any blame is on my shoulders. I still feel the advise given is sound and can save infected fish.

jenglish
12/31/2008, 01:06 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14050310#post14050310 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Sk8r
We agree, kernyboy. Thank you for your temperate response.

Waterkeeper, perhaps we could insert a line in red type that just says: DO NOT COMBINE TREATMENTS. PICK ONE, based on species and your own resources, and use that only.
An excellent article, btw, and far better and more comprehensive advice than one is likely to get by eliciting post-by-post advice in a question thread. It's a very good sticky.

I thin that a warning in there would help as well. When I read it before it never occured to me that it could be misinterpreted but I was reading them knowing they are not to be combined. After reading kernboys post I reread it and could see how it could be taken that way. that is the weakness of written versus spoken communication is the lack of inflections and such that would have made that more clear. It is a great primer regardless.

WaterKeeper
12/31/2008, 01:26 PM
Edit my post! Why I never...Done and in red. ;)

I really don't think the lower salinity in this case had caused any problem. As I said, it was common just a few years ago for many reefkeepers to routinely keep fish at lowered salinity. It was then thought that it would prevent disease but the decrease was too small to have any beneficial effect.

jenglish
12/31/2008, 01:42 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14050578#post14050578 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by WaterKeeper
Edit my post! Why I never...Done and in red. ;)

I really don't think the lower salinity in this case had caused any problem. As I said, it was common just a few years ago for many reefkeepers to routinely keep fish at lowered salinity. It was then thought that it would prevent disease but the decrease was too small to have any beneficial effect.

I think that a steady 1.020 does not make copper dangerous but changing salinity, changing temp(I don't recall if this was done), adding copper, catching stress, putting them all in a 10, catch stress to put them in the 29, the fact they were weak when the process started all are possible contributing factors. JMHO SOme day when the misses lets me buy 80 10 gallon tanks to run my massive RCT on ich I will let you know for sure ;) Does RC have and IRB?:lol:

Playa-1
12/31/2008, 02:32 PM
With that many fish in a small tank the water quality would deteriorate rapidly. O2, PH and Ammonia along with the stress of being netted and forced into a small over crowed tank. Then on top of that throw in some copper and salinity swings. Oh yeah!!! and don't forget the fish were infested and/or ill to begin with.

The reason the fish died is not a straight forward black and white kind of a reason. The bottom line is that the operator made some reckless decisions early on, paid a hefty price, and hopefully learned some important lessons along the way.

A few of the biggest lessons learned here would be:
1) Good proactive QT and Acclimation programs are very important.
2) Don't mix Hyposalinity and Copper. For that matter don't mix any two treatments or medications unless it is proven safe.
3) Make sure you understand what your doing before taking action. Read from several different sources and research the subject carefully before taking action. Get questions and discrepancies cleared up before taking action.

jthao
12/31/2008, 03:00 PM
when I first dealt with ich, I was stressed. I mean I was going nuts.
after years of dealing with it, you'll learn that it's one of the easier things to deal with compared to other things in this hobby.
My suggestion: only qt with hypo/copper if the fish actually needs it. I don't qt anymore ever. If a fish doesn't make it, oh well. If a fish is gonna die, it'll die no matter what you do.
the qt of choice for me is copper. easy to do, and have always worked against any type of disease, ich, velvet, brook, etc.. but I don't put copper into the qt tank unless I see that they need it. But like I mentioned above, nowadays, I don't even care to qt anymore, it seems like that's just more stress for the fish.
I've lost a lot of fish, all due to many reasons. I've learned that some fish will just die and you can't do anything about it. I've just lost a couple of very expensive wrasses in this past month, so I understand your frustration, but that's just how this hobby goes.

kernyboy
12/31/2008, 04:37 PM
So I guess, if they're gonna die anyway..and stressing them contributes to their death. You should just let it play out and start over I suppose.

Going forward, I will QT before adding to my tank to help reduce problems going forward, but if something happens even after these precautions, its kinda futile considering these fish are VERY fragile and many of these treatments for fish disease seem to me at least IMO to be rather harsh on the fish. That and net stress on an already dying animal, i'd imagine itd be pretty rough if i were a fish :)

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14051179#post14051179 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jthao
when I first dealt with ich, I was stressed. I mean I was going nuts.
after years of dealing with it, you'll learn that it's one of the easier things to deal with compared to other things in this hobby.
My suggestion: only qt with hypo/copper if the fish actually needs it. I don't qt anymore ever. If a fish doesn't make it, oh well. If a fish is gonna die, it'll die no matter what you do.
the qt of choice for me is copper. easy to do, and have always worked against any type of disease, ich, velvet, brook, etc.. but I don't put copper into the qt tank unless I see that they need it. But like I mentioned above, nowadays, I don't even care to qt anymore, it seems like that's just more stress for the fish.
I've lost a lot of fish, all due to many reasons. I've learned that some fish will just die and you can't do anything about it. I've just lost a couple of very expensive wrasses in this past month, so I understand your frustration, but that's just how this hobby goes.

WaterKeeper
12/31/2008, 04:42 PM
You think it is bad moving one at home. Just think of the poor fish when some native warrior first catches him and throws him in his canoe. I bet that calls for a dose of valium. :D

kernyboy
12/31/2008, 04:52 PM
Indeed...I learned...eh em <clears throat reads from prepared notes>

Kern's Report on ICH by Kern Bruce

1.) QT your fish before you add them to your display tank. Don't believe what your LFS says...do your own QT and be proactive! Just cus they SAY the fish are fine does it MEAN the fish are fine ;)

2.) If you fish does get ICH, even after a good QT/Acclimation regiment, he will most likely die anyway. Although it is not impossible to help/save a dying fish, it can often be difficult (at least for this newb). Catching/Netting then trying to nurse a fish back to health can be both costly, taxing on YOU, and YOUR dying fish.

Chasing a fish causes more stress (to both parties involved). You chasing the fish...and fish..being chased. BUT, if you're up for it by all means go ahead.

Breaking a tank down to CATCH a fish, is far worse. So with that said, I'll leave this to the experts. I'm not one yet....but I'm sure one day, this will be easy to do.

3.) If you DO decide to QT your sickly fish friends, DO NOT USE COPPER AND HYPO together. Pick one.

4.) Get a QT that is big enough for ALL of your livestock. But I'm a bit confused in this area. If this is the case, shouldn't my QT be as BIG as my DT?

5.) Crowd sourcing can be a great way to gather expert information...BUT keep in mind, that like anything too many cooks can spoil a pot. Ask questions. Trust, but verify!! Just because Joe Blow from Cali says Kick Ich works wonders, or that singing lullabies to your fish cures them of all ailments...check it out yourself!

This is way to costly of a hobby to make costly mistakes!

6.) And finally, just because you have one bad experience....keep at it. This is a learning hobby, and you can NEVER know enough...keep at it.

From one Newb to Another




<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14051005#post14051005 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Playa-1
With that many fish in a small tank the water quality would deteriorate rapidly. O2, PH and Ammonia along with the stress of being netted and forced into a small over crowed tank. Then on top of that throw in some copper and salinity swings. Oh yeah!!! and don't forget the fish were infested and/or ill to begin with.

The reason the fish died is not a straight forward black and white kind of a reason. The bottom line is that the operator made some reckless decisions early on, paid a hefty price, and hopefully learned some important lessons along the way.

A few of the biggest lessons learned here would be:
1) Good proactive QT and Acclimation programs are very important.
2) Don't mix Hyposalinity and Copper. For that matter don't mix any two treatments or medications unless it is proven safe.
3) Make sure you understand what your doing before taking action. Read from several different sources and research the subject carefully before taking action. Get questions and discrepancies cleared up before taking action.

calli
12/31/2008, 05:02 PM
I have an Idea...

How about we all get together and make a chart...

most people are using a small tank 10g or 20g to QT with...

now you are to slowly bring down the salinity in that tank to .009 well how about this.. a chart that tells how much fresh water to add to a certian amount of saltwater in the qt tank and what the salinity will be after adding so much fresh water.. just to give people a better Idea.. I know before I setup my system I will do that I am using a 10g.. when I do this I will post my results..

ie. 10g QT with 8g of DT water at 1.026 say..

after adding X amount of Fresh RO/DI water making it X amount of saltwater in the QT tank and a SG of now 1.024... and so on...

that way you don't go in blind with fish in the tank...

??? anyone want to add to this?

t5Nitro
12/31/2008, 05:21 PM
Kernyboy, maybe I'll sound like I'm bashing everything most people do on here (which is QT for ich). Basically, I never take fish out to QT for ich. Keep them in the tank and keep up correct water parameters and keep the fish eating. As long as the fish stays eating and swimming, you're good to go.

By reading your post, to me, my method saves a lot of headache and frustration.

I agree, for something as small as an ich outbreak, moving fish to a QT is stress not needed.

(Yes, a lot of people are going to disagree to my post).

Again, it's just another opinion.

But back on why it happened, I agree that mixing both lowering salinity and adding copper is dangerous. Hopefully the mods will put something in the sticky in bold.

Hope this helps.

Oh, yeah, QT before they go to the DT is still the best route though. :lol: I don't have room for one which is why I don't use one in general.

jenglish
12/31/2008, 05:37 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14051890#post14051890 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kernyboy
Indeed...I learned...eh em <clears throat reads from prepared notes>




4.) Get a QT that is big enough for ALL of your livestock. But I'm a bit confused in this area. If this is the case, shouldn't my QT be as BIG as my DT?

From one Newb to Another

In a perfect world a HT as big as DT would be great. Not likely but great.

point 1- you are looking at volume of water. depending on rock and sand many people have 1/3 or more of their tank volume as things other than water.

point 2- HT is a time you are expecting to be involved in your tank every day. you can use a smaller tank since you are watching closely. I would not want to load my DT to the point that I was watching it constantly and changing the water every day or even several times a week.

point 3- ideally if all fish are quaranteened before adding to your DT your chances of needing a HT for all fish is small.

so while I would love a HT/QT as big as my DT, it is in most cases avoidable.

As for the idea of never using a HT, there are basically 2 schools of thought. Sort of a nurse them back to health and avoid giving ich the opportunity to strike, or the more aggressive method of curing ich. I don't think that just being in 1 school or the other means you are bashing the other side :) I won't go into the arguments for my side as I'm pretty sure I've covered them elsewhere ;)

kernyboy
12/31/2008, 06:12 PM
Yeah, the two schools of thought can confused those just getting into the hobby. On one hand you have the

"ICH will kill everything!! QT immediately! Impending doom! The Sky is falling!! If you don't QT, everything will DIE!" school

then of course you have

"When I got ICH, I didnt do ANYTHING, it went away. It comes back sometimes. So what it stays in your tank forever. If you feed you fish, and check water params, all is well" school.

This can really send mixed signals and is very misleading on both fronts. I think as a Reef Community, we should be mindful of this. I guess this is much like the whole Tang debate. Whether you should keep a tang in anything less than 75 gallons or not.

Some folks have successfully done just that...keep a tang in a sub 75, some haven't been so successful.

In any event, we should really draft something that's in the middle to help folks who are just learning like myself. Admittedly, after reading the forum on ICH, I really thought it was the end of the world, and in retrospect, this might have lead me to acting a little hastily and irrationally (probably signing my fishes death sentence).

You all have been new to a hobby at one point or the other, some of the posts seem to make things out to be more harmful than they are. In the same time I've had both my fresh water and my saltwater tank up, I've had MORE catastrophic events happen to my saltwater. It's almost like, the thing i give MORE attention to, has the higher incidences of trouble. lol.




<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14052199#post14052199 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jenglish
In a perfect world a HT as big as DT would be great. Not likely but great.

point 1- you are looking at volume of water. depending on rock and sand many people have 1/3 or more of their tank volume as things other than water.

point 2- HT is a time you are expecting to be involved in your tank every day. you can use a smaller tank since you are watching closely. I would not want to load my DT to the point that I was watching it constantly and changing the water every day or even several times a week.

point 3- ideally if all fish are quaranteened before adding to your DT your chances of needing a HT for all fish is small.

so while I would love a HT/QT as big as my DT, it is in most cases avoidable.

As for the idea of never using a HT, there are basically 2 schools of thought. Sort of a nurse them back to health and avoid giving ich the opportunity to strike, or the more aggressive method of curing ich. I don't think that just being in 1 school or the other means you are bashing the other side :) I won't go into the arguments for my side as I'm pretty sure I've covered them elsewhere ;)

kernyboy
12/31/2008, 06:13 PM
Oh, CAN I keep a small 6 line wrasse, and a watchman goby, a tiger goby, and two juvi clowns in a 10 gallon QT?

t5Nitro
12/31/2008, 06:28 PM
Shouldn't be a problem, considering all of those are really small. Just watch nitrites and ammonia for sure and have premixed saltwater on hand to change out if needed. I personally would just leave them in the display if they are eating. Keep them well fed.

I too received the ich to QT or not lecture when I started 2 years ago. I don't QT and fish seem to pull out of ich really easily as long as they keep eating.

Ich isn't bad to deal with.

jenglish
12/31/2008, 06:48 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14052403#post14052403 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kernyboy
Yeah, the two schools of thought can confused those just getting into the hobby. On one hand you have the

"ICH will kill everything!! QT immediately! Impending doom! The Sky is falling!! If you don't QT, everything will DIE!" school

then of course you have

"When I got ICH, I didnt do ANYTHING, it went away. It comes back sometimes. So what it stays in your tank forever. If you feed you fish, and check water params, all is well" school.

This can really send mixed signals and is very misleading on both fronts. I think as a Reef Community, we should be mindful of this. I guess this is much like the whole Tang debate. Whether you should keep a tang in anything less than 75 gallons or not.

Some folks have successfully done just that...keep a tang in a sub 75, some haven't been so successful.

In any event, we should really draft something that's in the middle to help folks who are just learning like myself. Admittedly, after reading the forum on ICH, I really thought it was the end of the world, and in retrospect, this might have lead me to acting a little hastily and irrationally (probably signing my fishes death sentence).

You all have been new to a hobby at one point or the other, some of the posts seem to make things out to be more harmful than they are. In the same time I've had both my fresh water and my saltwater tank up, I've had MORE catastrophic events happen to my saltwater. It's almost like, the thing i give MORE attention to, has the higher incidences of trouble. lol.

have you ever tried to get this many people to agree on anything? ;) I think the difference between this and the tang debate is even those who have had luck keeping tangs in smaller tanks wouldn't say they are better off in a 55 gallon just that they can be kept in one. With ich it is a debate as to which is better, not just what is possible.

as far as 5 fish in a 10 gallon it is doable if they are really small though possibly pushing it. Keep a very close eye on it.

WaterKeeper
12/31/2008, 07:24 PM
Someone want to set up a poll. Of all causes of fish loss, ich is the #1 complaint on this forum. Sure fish do survive a bout but the majority do not. Hence the sticky that we have. I'm not telling anyone to use the methods posted but I think they are valuable treatment options to help quell the disease. You can choose to not do anything but in most cases it leads to lost fish. We have proven methods to combat the disease. You can try them or let ich or velvet run its course. The choice is yours.

I've had measles and got over it without anything but minor mental dyfunction (as if you haven't guessed).These days we now vaccinate most children at an early age even though the disease is seldom fatal and the vaccine itself posses some risk. It is like using the treatment methods explained in the sticky. They may not work and, if the disease is in an advanced stage, may lead to death. We know some things that will cure it, so why take a chance?

Playa-1
12/31/2008, 08:31 PM
I believe your on track for the most part here:

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14051890#post14051890 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kernyboy
Indeed...I learned...eh em <clears throat reads from prepared notes>

Kern's Report on ICH by Kern Bruce

1.) QT your fish before you add them to your display tank. Don't believe what your LFS says...do your own QT and be proactive! Just cus they SAY the fish are fine does it MEAN the fish are fine ;) That's true

2.) If you fish does get ICH, even after a good QT/Acclimation regiment, he will most likely die anyway. Although it is not impossible to help/save a dying fish, it can often be difficult (at least for this newb). Catching/Netting then trying to nurse a fish back to health can be both costly, taxing on YOU, and YOUR dying fish.
First of all, I think you will find that people that use a proper QT procedure don't get ICH in their DT unless they cut corners. I think that your making this process out to be a little more complicated then it actually is. Netting a fish and treating it isn't all that difficult. It may take a little practice. When you unleash an epidemic in your tank then that is a different story. You're likely to have losses and Trying to treat a whole DT full of fish without wiping out inverts and beneficial bacteria can be a nightmare. That is why it's so important to try and prevent this situation from occurring.

Chasing a fish causes more stress (to both parties involved). You chasing the fish...and fish..being chased. BUT, if you're up for it by all means go ahead.
I would suggest that you hone your fish catching skills. It doesn't have to be that difficult.

Breaking a tank down to CATCH a fish, is far worse. So with that said, I'll leave this to the experts. I'm not one yet....but I'm sure one day, this will be easy to do.
There are easier methods to catching a fish.

3.) If you DO decide to QT your sickly fish friends, DO NOT USE COPPER AND HYPO together. Pick one.
Yep, Thats a big one.

4.) Get a QT that is big enough for ALL of your livestock. But I'm a bit confused in this area. If this is the case, shouldn't my QT be as BIG as my DT? Well, That's just not practical for most people. So what we do is use a proper QT and Acclimation process so that you will never be in a position that all of your fish have to be QT'd at the same time.

5.) Crowd sourcing can be a great way to gather expert information...BUT keep in mind, that like anything too many cooks can spoil a pot. Ask questions. Trust, but verify!! Just because Joe Blow from Cali says Kick Ich works wonders, or that singing lullabies to your fish cures them of all ailments...check it out yourself! My advise would be to read up on the subject as much as you can before you start asking for opinions. The whole crowd sourcing thing can be very confusing.

This is way to costly of a hobby to make costly mistakes!
I agree, It's much better to be proactive and prevent problems before they occur.

6.) And finally, just because you have one bad experience....keep at it. This is a learning hobby, and you can NEVER know enough...keep at it.
Many of us have learned about the importance of Quarantine and Acclimation the hard way. Many of us share your pain. My next advise to you would be to make sure that your QT program is adequate to get the job done. Make sure you recognize disease when you see it. Try and eliminate holes in your QT program.

From one Newb to Another

tmz
01/01/2009, 12:50 AM
Ich is an often deadly protozoan parasite that almost every keeper of marine fish will encounter at some point.There are thousands of strains of this parasite and some are more virulent than others. It has been well studied and there is plenty of information on it's lifecycle and treatment if an aquarist chooses to search under the scientific name cryptocaryon irritans or marine ich.

The reason it is ubiquitous in the hobby is likely due to the confinement and exposure of marine fish during the chain of custody from the ocean to our aquariums. The parasite multiplies 200 to 300 fold each time it moves out of the encysted phase which can happen every 10 days or so. In the sea these parasites are subject to currents which will wash many of them away . It is also likely there are natural predators not found in the hobby. A cubic meter of space(about a 200 gallon tank) on the barrier reef receives about a 1 million gallon water change per day.In contrast in an aquarium all of the newly "hatched" ich are trapped in close proximity to host fish.

Quaranitne for all new fish is the first step against it. The qt tank should be of adequate size to accommodate the fish to be placed in it comfortably for at least a 4 week stay.I have seen the first signs of ich show up during the 4th week. Providing space and pvc or other non calcareous structures for hiding and resting are important. Managing ammonia is also critical.There is really no need to worry about nitrite or nitrate in qt. Using some seeded sponge from the display or sump to start bio filtration coupled with daily ammonia testing for the first few days and water changes are required.If the qt is not medicated carbon use is also a good idea. Failing to qt new fish can lead to a fish showing signs of ich in the display where it can not be easily caught for treatment and worse the infestation of the display itself.

Without becoming too technical or wordy, there are a few issues in the above posts that may benefit from some clarification.

Ich should be treated as soon as possible after it is first diagnosed. You really can't do much about the initial infestation but you want to stop the second infestation which will likely be much worse since the parasite will have multiplied. Sometimes if the initial infestation is very severe or particularly virulent the fish will succumb to it even with treatment since none of the treatment options will treat the parasites that are in the fish eating it's flesh. Sometimes secondary infections or other infestations such as velvet(amyloodinium) or brokllynella will show up with a dire outcome. Sometimes the infestation will be a mild strain and the fish will survive without treatment but will still likely harbor the parasite in lesser numbers in more sensitive tissues.

Some opt to treat prophylactically for ich with copper , hyposalinity or the tank transfer method during the qt period. Some believe these treatments are unecessary and that careful observation for a 4 week period will enable the aquarist to tell if ich or other diseases are present at least most of the time. Sometimes if the ich is on a partially immune fish (84% of fish which survive a severe infestation develop some level of immunity,Burgess and Matthews 1995) it will host in the more vulnerable tissue in the gills, nostrils and mouth unseen. While the partially immune fish will not show any symptoms a new comer can be quickly infected and spark an outbreak or a stressor may.

Proven effective treatments include; copper, hyposalinity for non resistant strains and the tank transfer method. All work on the free swimming parasite only; not those that are encysted or those in the fish.

Copper is my preference. it is faster with a 2 week treatment period and in my experience more effective than hyposalinity.. It will also kill velvet. Cupramine is a chelated form which makes it easier to maintain a therapeutic level without overdose. I have used this treatment on Tangs, Angels and wrasses and many other species without ill effect.

Hyposalinity can be effective against many strains. Is it safer? Can it be used with copper? Does it stress or harm the fish? What about osmotic shock?How long should it take to lower the salinity?

The internal salinity of a marine fish is about 1.008. It has evolved to live in water that is typically 1.0264 sg.It does this primarily through its ability to process concentrated urine and to drink large amounts of sea water, thus maintaining it's internal ph at 1.008.This process is known as osmoregulation. 1.009 is simply as low as you can go for prolonged exposures without flooding the fish with fluid and knocking off it's internal chemistry and homeostasis leading to death. Ivertebrates(corals,shrimp etc.) and parasites have no ability to osmoregulate and hyposalinity for a prolonged period of time is lethal to them .
Hyposalinity treatments are generally for a minimum of 6 weeks. This period of time may kill most of the parasites but may also damage the kidneys of the fish long term since they will not be working very much during the hypo period. it is not effective against velvet since this dinoflagellate lives in a variety of environments including brackish water.

I have often seen ich remain unseen throughout a course of hyposalinity only to reappear as the salinity is adjusted back up north of around 1.020. Perhaps the hypo slows down some resistant strains without eliminating them.

There is an urgency to teat the fish quickly when a symptom of ich appears, usually the dreaded white spots. Quick treatment will prevent a much worse secondary infection so moving the salinity down quickly when treating with hypo is necessary. Moving down quickly will not put additional stress on the fish provided you don't go below 1.008. Indeed there are studies that show the fish does less work at lower sg that is above it's internal sg. It simply drinks less and passes less urine. The salinity can be dropped immediately without harm to the fish. A period of 2 days is generally thought to be better since it gives the nitrifying bacteria a chance to adjust.

There is no reason to believe that you can not use copper in lower sgs. However, if the ph is lowered as may be the case in lowered sg without adjustments for ph copper toxicity may be increased.

FYI if you are concerned about copper sensitivity even to a chelated copper medication and have reservations about hyposalinity, you can use the tank transfer method. This requires at least 2 tanks and involve moving the fish to a clean tank every 3 days for a total of 4 transfers.

Lastly, The display once exposed to ich needs to be left fishless for at least 6weeks. ditto for velvet.While some cysts have survived for as long as 72 days, this was in cold water. So six weeks seems quite adequate, in my opinion.
Happy New Year everyone.