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MrBunny
12/31/2008, 01:07 AM
I recently started a new saltwater tank. I just got my first few damsels (Yellowtail Damsels) for the tank. I got them home, put the bag in the tank let the bag float for 25 mins. I then began to open the bags to place the fish in the tank. Once I removed the rubber band one of the fish instantly died and the other went into a coma of sorts. They were fine up to the point where I removed the rubber band. Was this ammonia burn? Should I open the bags the second I get home and put air stone inside the bag?

Michael
12/31/2008, 03:23 AM
firstly your not acclimatising the fish, the fact you got the bag water up to the tank water temperature is good but you need to get the fish to adapt to the new water, you should open the bag and allow a tiny amount of tank water in, then after another 10 mins a bit more and so on and so on until 45 mins to an hour is up, then pour half the bag water away and do the same again for another 20 mins or so, then release the fish into your hand over a bucket and then put him in the tank, never allow the bag water into your tank, secondly why are you putting damsels in at this stage, id suggest this, let the tank run, monitor ph, salinity ammonia, nitrite and nitrate by testing daily, oh and temperature and write the params down in a note pad etc, you will see ammonia and nitrite rise first then nitrate, when the ammonia and nitrite have been 0 for 2-3 days do a 20% water change to dilute the formed nitrate and then you can add some cuc to start algae control, a week or so after this if nitrate is very low and no ammonia and nitrite have been detected you could add a fish, add very slowly and always monitor params, the cycle could last 4-6 weeks before ammonia and nitrite are 0

and

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gnorts
12/31/2008, 07:17 AM
+1 Don't try to rush things and ask plenty of questions as you are.

[welcome]

kel2682
12/31/2008, 08:23 AM
+1 on what Michael says, pretty much sums it up,and patience is a virtue in this hobby

viodea
12/31/2008, 09:15 AM
From what I understand, he hadn't put the fish in yet. He just removed the rubber band and fishes died.
I knew he wasn't planning on acclimating the fish but that wasn't the cause of death.... unless I read it wrong.

Michael
12/31/2008, 09:19 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14048857#post14048857 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by viodea
From what I understand, he hadn't put the fish in yet. He just removed the rubber band and fishes died.
I knew he wasn't planning on acclimating the fish but that wasn't the cause of death.... unless I read it wrong.

well i find that fasinating if true, lets hope he pops back on to clarify that then:)

MrBunny
12/31/2008, 01:27 PM
Ya that was the strange thing about it the fish were fine up till the point of removing the rubber band. I checked the fish before opening the bag they seemed fine then once I got the rubber band off and was going to net them they where dead.

I realize now that my acclimation process was just doing temperature and going to use the measuring cup method from here on. I'm starting to think I really can't trust my lfs because they where using the same method and I actually watched the guy acclimate a new fish to their tanks like I did to mine.

Also another thing that the lfs told me was a good idea was to use the damsel fish to cycle the tank. Is it common that tanks should be cycled without fish?

WaterKeeper
12/31/2008, 01:39 PM
That is very strange indeed. I not sure what ammonia burn is but ammonia toxicity is not instantaneous. The fish become highly agitated with high ammonia levels and have great difficulty breathing before they die. I'm at a loss to explain what happened.

On using the fish to cycle the tank. Don't do it. Hopefully you are using LR and that provides all the bacteria you need for a healthy tank. Even in a bare tank using a piece of shrimp is far better than using a fish.

jenglish
12/31/2008, 01:46 PM
Ammonia build up in a bag becomes more toxic when exposed to air if I recall correctly. (perhaps WK can explain teh chemistry of this) This would still seem very rapid. This is why some folks are against drip acclimation of shipped specimens. How long were they in the bag? FWIW a shot of pure unscented household ammonia, raw shrimp, or even your own urine will start a cycle and nobody gets ammonia burn ;)

WaterKeeper
12/31/2008, 01:57 PM
I really have no idea why ammonia would become more toxic when the bag is opened. Ammonia is super soluble and little of it would actually be in the air unless it was at very high concentrations. pH is the main culprit in ammonia toxicity with high pH creating higher toxicity. That is why it is more toxic in a seawater tank at pH 8.2 than in a FW tank at pH 7 or lower. The exception is the FW African lake cichlids where pH is close to 10.

I still don't think the fish died because of ammonia.

jenglish
12/31/2008, 02:13 PM
"Any ammonia present doesnt become toxic until you offgas the co2 and introduce oxygen. Then if you choose to drip you are making them sit in this toxic water for hours. Float them to temp, and get them out of the nasty water they shipped in and into some clean water. This goes for everything imo."

This was an explanation given to me once long ago. I would think that the buildup of co2 would be lowering ph and making ammonia less toxic. I just put in a bit of ammo nuetralizer when I drip acclimate in case this is true.

But I think the fish was probably going to die and it just happen to coincide w/ opening the bag.

mikersx02
12/31/2008, 02:26 PM
I waited 3 or 4 days before introducing 2 damsel fish. People on this board will screem at you for doing it- but all of my fish lived and I kept those 2 fish and clean up crew in the tank for 3-4 months and monitored levels before I even began researching what to put in next. My research concluded to the fact that I should remove the damsel fish before I get too many rocks in the tank! :)

I have a 75 gallon- added 2 fish after the water settled and tested ok as to not fry the fish as soon as they go for a swim. I had some amonia but I just did water changes once or twice a week at 20% to keep things safe. LIke I said, I kept those 2 fish until I gave them back to the pet store.

FWIW, i also added dead rock in the begining because I knew live rock would potentially start a cycle of its own. After 2-4 months of keeping the damsels alive, add 1 rock at a time- or you can cure them in a bucket outside the tank until they have gotten rid of all the die-off. You choice.

WaterKeeper
12/31/2008, 04:37 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14050903#post14050903 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jenglish
"Any ammonia present doesnt become toxic until you offgas the co2 and introduce oxygen.
Well, I guess that is plausible but most shippers fill the bag with pure oxygen when they package the fish. That would somewhat cancel out the oxygen factor. As for the CO<sub>2</sub> lowering the pH, that is possible but I find it hard that just opening the bag will create such a drastic rise in pH that it makes any ammonia in the water more toxic. It is an outside chance however.

MrBunny
12/31/2008, 04:57 PM
Just to clarify some more I purchased the fish from the LFS it is about 10 mins away. The fish where in the bag for about a total of 35 to 45 mins before I opened it up. Also when I got the fish they might have just made it to the LFS as they had just gotten a shipment in (so I was watching how they where doing the acclimation of a new shipment).

So do most people put the bag in the tank and open it up while the temperature equalizes? I think that would have been the only thing that could have saved these guys unless there was something prior to that because my water chemistry (besides maybe the temperature) shouldn't have played a role in their death up till that point. Or at least I wouldn't think it would have.

WaterKeeper
12/31/2008, 07:49 PM
Mr. Bunny,

I find no fault in what you did. Oxygen shock or CO<sub>2</sub> buildup cannot be a problem in a less than an hour transfer period. I hope the LFS has a return policy because I think something happened on their end. Maybe cyanide caught fish as the shipment was new.

jenglish
01/01/2009, 12:25 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14051795#post14051795 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by WaterKeeper
Well, I guess that is plausible but most shippers fill the bag with pure oxygen when they package the fish. That would somewhat cancel out the oxygen factor. As for the CO<sub>2</sub> lowering the pH, that is possible but I find it hard that just opening the bag will create such a drastic rise in pH that it makes any ammonia in the water more toxic. It is an outside chance however.

here was a better explanation of what I was told. Its a post by TMZ

before.http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1541540

again I don't think it applies to this case of fish mortality due to the fact that the fish was locally aquired. I just thought this was a good explanation of what I was ham handedly trying to describe :)

WaterKeeper
01/01/2009, 12:57 PM
The other Tom is usually right on with his posts but I have a hard time with that sort of NH<sub>4</sub><sup>+</sup> shift to NH<sub>3</sub> in the short time you had the fish bagged. It might hold true for fish that have been bagged for days but not for those that were only bagged for a hour or two.

Frankly, I'm at a complete loss as to what happened to your fish. It is very strange but I just don't see it as ammonia toxicity. It probably is a case for the "Unsolved Mysteries" program. ;)

jenglish
01/01/2009, 05:22 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14056263#post14056263 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by WaterKeeper
The other Tom is usually right on with his posts but I have a hard time with that sort of NH<sub>4</sub><sup>+</sup> shift to NH<sub>3</sub> in the short time you had the fish bagged. It might hold true for fish that have been bagged for days but not for those that were only bagged for a hour or two.

Frankly, I'm at a complete loss as to what happened to your fish. It is very strange but I just don't see it as ammonia toxicity. It probably is a case for the "Unsolved Mysteries" program. ;)

Oh no, I didn't want to give the impression I still thought it was the sudden ammonia toxicity. I was just hijacking the thread a tiny bit to discuss the principle for my own selfish learning and to demonstrate the info came from a credible source and not my new years eve buzz. ;)

I think if you want to solve the unsolved mystery you are going to have to go to the supplier, I think there is nothing the OP could have done in the short time to have caused the loss.

WaterKeeper
01/01/2009, 05:36 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14057902#post14057902 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jenglish
I think there is nothing the OP could have done in the short time to have caused the loss.

My feeling too but I wish I had a reason. :sad2:

ChrisKirkland
01/01/2009, 05:49 PM
Just to clarify the ammonia toxicity:
For the ammonia it's toxicity becomes greater as you raise the temperature and the Ph. Which means that when you open the bag and introduce O2 the ph will begin to go up same with acclimating the bag to the temp of your water. However this occurs over time and cannot lead to instantaneous death of fish.

Now when you opened the bag did you add any tank water to it or is that when you realized the fish were dead???

MrBunny
01/01/2009, 06:19 PM
Right before opening the bag I saw them swimming about. As I took the rubber band off the air inside the bag rushed out deflating the bag. I went to grab the net and when I went to fish them out they where no longer swimming and they didn't even look like they where breathing. I ended up putting both of the fish in the tank. I ended up putting the fish in the tank one of them actual recovered and appears fine for now the other one died.

Also can you guys clarify what some of the acronyms you are using.
Like OP and FWIW.

WaterKeeper
01/01/2009, 06:20 PM
Here's a graph of the relative abundance of ammonium vs. ammonia ions with increasing pH-

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/1720AmmoniaEquilibrium.jpg
Source-Aquariologist.com

As you can see the conversion process starts at about pH 7.5 and intersects at pH 9.3 with a peak at pH 11. It is highly unlikely that the pH will rise to pH 9 even after a carbon dioxide release. The buffering ability of the salt mix would counter this effect.

ChrisKirkland
01/01/2009, 06:29 PM
to me the acronyms mean:
FWIW- For What It's Worth
OP- Original Purchaser