Ich Question Again

[fender4string]

So my first fish has ich (as some of you might already know). Right now she's in a 29 gal QT with 15-20 lbs. of LR. It is barebottom. I'm running a crappy hob filter and a koralia 3.

Ok so finally my question. I currently have cupramine and a copper test kit in preparation for treating her but frankly I'm very nervous to do so as I understand copper is poisonous to fish at the wrong dose and I'm a little worried something could go wrong. Since part of the parasite's life cycle is living in sand or rock, if I remove all the rock in the tank, will the ich die on it's own? I read an article about how a fishery kept their fish in two tanks of different composition (one was concrete and the other something smooth, i.e. non-porous). The porous tank lead to outbreaks of ich and the non-porous tank had no ich outbreaks. The assumption here was that the ich could live on the porous surface whereas the smooth surface didn't allow the ich to cling to it and therefore mature to the free swimming stage.

So is this just a pipe dream :)?

Also if I do have to treat (which I'm sure I probably will) is there anything specific I should know? Frequency of testing, frequency of water changes, or anything else I'm not thinking of?

Is there any other method than the extended time in copper treatment? Will some kind of dip eliminate the ich?

Any info is helpful and sorry about the short novel :).

[ccampbell57]

I prefer the hypo method for ick. You lower the SG over a 48 hour period to 1.09 and watch the ph. Wait 4-6 weeks past the last sign of ick and then raise the SG back to normal over one week.

Cupramine is a great product and I use it as well, but only when the fish is healthy and I know they can take the copper.

Good luck.

[fender4string]

Ok thanks for the tip. I don't have a refractometer so that method is probably out.

[ccampbell57]

I would suggest lowering the salinity anyway. And if you are going to dose copper...rule of thumb is to dose half the amount the first day and then the rest the next day.

Watch your PH as copper will cause it to fall. Make sure you have some buffer and test kits handy. Also take out any activated carbon and stop your skimmer if you have one.

[Recty]

You'll probably eventually want a refractometer, btw. I bought one off Marine Depot for like $40, well worth it.

As far as treating with cupramine goes, it's really easy. Just follow the instructions on the bottle. The first couple days will be harder because you'll have to figure out how many drops you need to add in order to make up for whatever copper was lost. Like for instance if you get it to a level of 50 and then the next day it's at 40, you wont know how many drops to add. So you add 10 drops and measure it, and see what it's at. If it's at 50, then bang, you know to raise it 10 points you need to add 10 drops. So after a couple days of figuring it out, you'll know how much you need to add without having to test a second time.

Of course, it cant hurt to test a second time if you want, so you're sure what you've got.

My tank I'd put at about 50-55 on the seachem test kit, and the next day when I measured it, it would normally read down around 40-45. I had to add about 16-20 drops every time to get it back up to 50-55, it was really easy actually.

My fish pulled through it amazingly, although they were two triggers who are pretty tough anyway :)

[Recty]

Just an FYI, and I know ccampbell57 isnt suggesting both at once, but you dont want to treat with copper and hypo at once, copper gets much more toxic at lower salinity.

[fender4string]

Thank you guys for the advice and especially the clarification at the end. I misread his tip and thought he was suggesting lowering salinity while treating with copper.

Ok guess I have to man up and just do it :).

[fender4string]

Also, now that I'm looking at her, her eyes don't appear to be as clear as they were. They're a little on the cloudy side. Is this just a side affect caused by the ich or something more serious?

[LisaD]

cloudy eyes can be due to infection. how is the water quality? especially ammonia.

what kind of fish?

you really need to watch water quality in QT, it can make a fish sick much more stressed if you don't keep up with it. even with filtration, you may want to do partial daily water changes.

[Recty]

For what it's worth, my fish eye's have always started looking cloudy when they are having ich problems. I've tested the water and the levels I can check for all seem good, it just seems like a stress condition or because the ich is beating them down.

Which isnt to say yours isnt caused by bad water quality, but I wouldnt be surprised if your water still checks out and it is just the ich causing the cloudiness.

[fender4string]

The water quality is good Lisa-I've been keeping up on water changes pretty well. The ammonia was high a couple weeks ago but that has since been in check. Also, the fish is a singapore angel.

Thanks Recty-I'll just keep my eye on her and attribute the cloudiness to the ich for now.

I just dosed the first half of the copper and I'll wait until tomorrow to bring it up to full strength. I also took Bella's (the fish's name) rock out of QT and her hermit pals so she seems kinda sad for the moment-more so because of her sweet rock home being gone than the crabs :). But on a happier note I just got my rock for the big tank so once this treatment is over Bella gets some sweet new digs :). I'll keep everyone who's interested posted on how the treatment goes!

[LisaD]

I hope it goes well. Is she still eating?

[Recty]

If you havent already, make sure to put in some pieces of PVC pipe big enough for her to hide in. My fish really put that stuff to use in quarantine.

[fender4string]

Yep she's eating-Apparently the transition wasn't so bad :). And I have one piece of PVC in there for her to hide in but I think I'm gonna build her something with a tighter space to hide in as her rock home was had very small spaces.

[billsreef]

For the QT, you don't want any calcerous substrate (rock/sand), as it will pull the copper out of solution and make it difficult to maintain proper concentration. Just a few PVC pipe pieces will work for cover ;)

BTW it's not the lowered salinity itself that makes copper more toxic in hyposaline conditions, but the lowered alkalinity/pH that goes along with hypo if you don't pay attention to buffering ;)

[laserjim]

Use Coppersafe by Mardel ,never been to complicated for me. It always works and doesnt harm the biological filter.Ive even used it in my FOWLR system with sand and it always works.Just follow the recommended dosage.(Of course dont put it in your reef)and it will take out snails and crabs.

[Dan]

Copper will also become more toxic if there is a rise in ammonia. So with removing the live rock, do you have a good, well established sponge filter to take its place? Use of an ammonia card is helpful. To reiterate what Bill said, calcerous substrate and copper is a bad combination. Did you take the rock out before adding the copper? I hope so, otherwise just toss the rock. Good luck.

Dan

[laserjim]

I left the rock in ,I did a 50% water change 2 weeks in a row,then ran heavy carbon .After a couple months coraline started forming again.I wouldnt suggest doing that with a reef tank.But with FOWLR I had no problems. Bacteria is what makes the live rock live anyway,and coppersafe doesnt hurt your biological filter.(bacteria)

[fender4string]

Thanks for the input everyone. I already started treating (today is day 4) using Cupramine. Thanks for the heads up about copper and ammonia Dan. I was planning on at the minimum every other day water changes but do you think I should do some every day? Also, I removed all the LR and the two hermits in there who were assisting in clean up. I have no sponge filter (or any other for that matter) running. Do you recommend I get one?

I also learned something interesting. Apparently copper test kits don't register cupramine but only pick up ionic copper. The guy I talked to said they do make test kits for the type of copper cupramine is composed of (can't remember what he said it was called) but they are inaccurate. I'm just doing my best with the dosage and erring on the side of under dosing. Hopefully this doesn't render the treatment ineffective.

As far as Bella is concerned, she seems to be doing alright. She is still eating and is very active. The white spots that were on her are also gone. That being said I don't plan to stop treating until the two weeks are up. Her eyes also aren't cloudy anymore. The only thing I've noticed is that she's lost a little color, especially in her mouth which went from pale blue to deeper purple. It's now back to the original pale blue.

[billsreef]

SeaChem makes a kit that designed to test for the copper levels of Cupramine ;)

[Dan]

Well, you have yourself in a bind. The ideal would have been to have a sponge seeded from your display tank already running in QT. I just use a prefilter type sponge with a power head. You must have biological filtration. I guess water changes will have to do. An ammonia card or test kit will tell you when it is time to change water. No need to change daily unless necessary. It just adds more stress. And remember, spots may disappear, but that is just another stage in the parasites' life cycle. Treat for at least a month. Good luck.

Dan

[Recty]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14093822#post14093822 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Dan
Well, you have yourself in a bind. The ideal would have been to have a sponge seeded from your display tank already running in QT. I just use a prefilter type sponge with a power head. You must have biological filtration. I guess water changes will have to do. An ammonia card or test kit will tell you when it is time to change water. No need to change daily unless necessary. It just adds more stress. And remember, spots may disappear, but that is just another stage in the parasites' life cycle. Treat for at least a month. Good luck.

Dan Hmmm, so many things wrong in that paragraph.

Why would daily water changes add more stress? I've always done daily water changes on my QT tanks, my fish do great in there. You dont wait until you show ammonia, as at that point you're already harming the fish. You KEEP the ammonia at zero by daily water changes, you dont wait until the water quality is bad then start trying to remedy it.

Treating for a month is not what is recommended either. 2 weeks for cupramine. More than that can be harmful to the fish.

Follow what the manufacturer says on the bottle, and if you're using cupramine it says to treat for 2 weeks. Then what I would do is watch for another week or two and make sure no spots reappear.

I havent yet had to redose cupramine, one treatment for 2 weeks has done it every time.

[Recty]

And you really should order the seachem test kit for Cupramine, otherwise you might not have it at a high enough level to kill off the ich.

Or you have it at too high a level and you'll hurt your fish, copper can lead to blindness at high levels and probably other organ issues.

[fender4string]

Thanks for the tips Dan and Recty. Alright maybe I'll order the test kit then. Any recommendations on where to get it from bc I can't find it anywhere around here. Also, just to ease your mind I'm pretty sure my dosing has been on the safe side. Worst case scenario is that it's not as high as it should be-I'm confident that it's not too high. I just followed the dosing instructions on the bottle of Cupramine (1mL per 40 L/10.5 gal). I'm also recording the amount of water I'm taking out the tank each day-I go for about 10 L and then dose .25mL of Cupramine to keep the concentration the same as it was initially ( 2.5mL per 29 gallons).

Also, for the record, the instructions on the bottle of Cupramine say to treat for 2 weeks.

[Recty]

I got mine off Marine Depot.

[Dan]

Also, for the record, the instructions on the bottle of Cupramine say to treat for 2 weeks.
Well that's all fine, except you really do not know what parasite you have. "Ich" has become generic for "white spots". Maybe you do have Cryptocaryon irritans. Maybe something else. Different parasites have different life cycles. 2 weeks will cover some, but NOT crypto. Up to 20 days to develop into tomites, 30 days is simply erring on the side of caution, longer is even better. Copper is only effective during the free swimming stage.

You KEEP the ammonia at zero by daily water changes
That would require 100% change every day. If it works for you, fine. To me, all that activity around the fish is stressful. The fish does not know that siphon tube isn't going to eat it. And if the new water is not at the exact same temperature, salinity, pH, etc. there will be added stress. Plus new copper to be added, then re-test ammonia, blah, blah, blah. Good luck.

Dan

[TriggersAmuck]

Just 2 cents worth: The ideal is to treat the fish in isolated quarantine (which it sounds like you are doing), not the display tank, for the recommended duration of the treatment, in this case two to four weeks. That should take care of the parasite in the QT, but it is recommended to leave the display tank (not having received any medication) devoid of fish for as much as 60 days. Yes, the life cycle is generally somewhere from 14 to thirty days depending on temperature, but there have been records showing ich lasting as many as 70 days for one period, egads (though this is very uncommon, of course). The parasite is much more adaptable (and thus less predictable) than previously thought.

So once the fish has been treated for the medication's recommended period, water changes should slowly take the concentration back to near zero in the QT at which point the fish is just monitored for the remainder of the display tank's fallow period before it is reintroduced into the display.

By the way, if you add a sponge filter now, it is unlikely to be well seeded during any of your treatement time due to the constant water changes. When you do water changes you want to be cleaning the tank floor as much as possible in attempts to avoid as much nitrogen break down as possible....this is NOT the time to attempt to "break in" a quarantine tank since break in requires attaining certain levels of NH3 and NO2 (when starting from a sterile environment, as you are). Rather do that after your fish has returned to the display by installing a simple filter (sponge/BioWheel, wet/dry....but not live rock/sand) afterwards and keeping that quarantine tank maintained henceforth.

[fender4string]

Thanks for input

Dan-I wasn't trying to argue but I'm not one to disregard the directions on medication :). That being said I still appreciate all the help and that's a very valid point about not being 100% sure about what parasite is inflicting the fish. If it makes the diagnosis any more specific, my fish also developed cloudy else and clamped her pectoral fins a bit which I read were signs of ich. But are those common symptoms of other disease also?

Triggers-Yep the fish is all by itself in QT. As for the fallow period in the DT I've never yet had fish in it-it's my first tank and this is my first fish :). My fish broke out with ich in QT which I guess in a way was a stroke of luck as compared to having to wait so long with an empty DT. Also, I have been vaccuming the bottom of the tank during wc's.

So here's another question now that I'm thinking about it. Once the two weeks are up I was planning on putting the fish straight into the DT. I'm starting to think maybe that's a bad plan...Is there anything specific I have to do before I transfer her? Do I have to get the copper concentration down in the QT before putting her in the DT? Should I monitor her for a set time after treatment is done to make sure she's ich free?

[Recty]

Typically you remove the copper from the QT after 2 weeks are up. Watch the fish for at least another week, preferably two, to see if any spots pop up.

If not, switch it over to your display.

[fender4string]

What do I use to remove the copper? Also, do I remove it quickly or is it something I should do gradually?

[Recty]

With mine, I did a 30% water change in the morning when I was done, then I did a 30% change in the evening.

Also just put in activated carbon somewhere in your filter path and you'll suck the carbon right out.

I do both, although technically you really only need to do the carbon, I'd still do a couple big water changes.

[fender4string]

Cool, thanks

[TriggersAmuck]

Fender: Just doing your normal water changes will take the CU concentration down gradually. If you are careful to not transfer any of the QT water into the display tank when you transfer your fish over eventually, you shouldn't really have to worry about whether you have absorbed 100% of the CU out. Any traces (drops of QT water) will be at such small concentrations as to have no effect. Having said that, the use of carbon during the final observation period can only help the QT water quality and so isn't a bad idea from that standpoint.

Sorry to be off topic, but nice Trigger collection Recty! Did you ever have any issues introducing the 5 triggers into the same display? I have had both good experiences and one bad experience in combining triggers.

[Recty]

I've had a little scuffling between the Humu and the pink tail, but other than that it's been smooth sailing.

I'm watching my niger though, as everyone says they get to be beasts and mine at 9" is peaceful so far, so I'm just watching and waiting :)

[fender4string]

No problem being off topic Triggers-He has some sweet fish and if he wasn't so far away there's a good chance I would've stolen his picasso by now :)

[Recty]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14115637#post14115637 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by fender4string
No problem being off topic Triggers-He has some sweet fish and if he wasn't so far away there's a good chance I would've stolen his picasso by now :) You mean this guy?

http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i236/Recty/humu018.jpg

Yeah, he is a pretty cool fish, real good coloration, I've been pretty happy with him. He is a little bit of a jerk to new fish though.

[fender4string]

Oh that is an awesome pic!