PDA

View Full Version : Confused....


calli
01/01/2009, 09:17 PM
Please someone give me a straight answer :-D

ok.. I have an Emperor 400 and I have a Ehiem Canister.

I don't really want to use the canister.. they are a PAIN to work with.. I would rather just use the emperor 400 hob filter.

If using the canister is beneficial I will use it..

So the question is... should I use the HOB or the Canister or both.

and what media should I use in them or just one?

NOTE: and I will be using a skimmer as well.

Thank you in advance....

A.T.T.R
01/01/2009, 09:20 PM
what size tank?
on a 10-20 gallon the emperor 400 shouldbe ok

anything larger then that and your gonna want to look into power heads for more flow

flow +lr is more important then your filter system

calli
01/01/2009, 09:28 PM
First off it is a 65 gallon...

I have 2 Koralia 3's and I am going with 65lbs of live rock with a 4" DSB and hopefully getting about 25% of the sand live.

I just read an article about Natural filtration.. I am thinking of using the Emperor in DT with no media in it just in case I need to setup a Hospital tank.

I will use the Canister if I have to. It has 4 chambers in it I just don't know what to use for media and how often to change it.

I was hoping to use the Emperor because of its ease of use.

ludiNano
01/01/2009, 09:43 PM
If your thinking it might be needed for bacterial reasons theres no need.

Now i use a pengun 200 HOB on sump, just to run carbon and PhosGard. I try to change both bi weekly, phosban will let go longer sometimes.

Not sure how enhiem canisters work. But if you can run carbon w/out any kind of filter floss or pad/sponge/ ect. just carbon and a bag maybe i would go w/ that.

From what i know carbon can pull out things other then bact. in live rock.

calli
01/01/2009, 09:47 PM
explain to me why there is no need to use the Emperor for bacterial reasons?

Is there someone in here just running a canister and a skimmer? please help...

ludiNano
01/01/2009, 09:58 PM
Having a hob on main system for switching over to set up a hospital tank is a great idea.

But the amount surface area for bactiera in/on your live rock makes an hob surface area for bactiera look like a pin head.

calli
01/01/2009, 10:02 PM
Oh ok.. yeah I see what you are saying.. now you think just Carbon in the canister?

I can get carbon socks... but how many? FILL it all the way up? all 4 compartments?

ludiNano
01/01/2009, 10:07 PM
Im not 4 sure on how much to use post a Carbon useage Q on Chemistry forum, How much 65 g system, maybe how heavy you plan to stock. And randy will answer you w/ 3 words or less..

lol you'll see.

Jason Donohoe
01/02/2009, 01:10 AM
Are you putting a sump under your tank? I have a 72 gallon that I was running with a HOB protein skimmer and cannister filter. I built a sump under it 4 months ago and wish I had done it sooner. I now have a skimmer in the sump as well as reactors for running carbon and GFO. If you are just setting up it would be a great time to do it.

I am using aprox 1 cup carbon/50 gallons and swapping it out monthly. If you want some reading on the topic here is the link to a carbon thread I posted to find out how to use it. Boomer linked to some great articles on the topic.

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1523002

Jason Donohoe
01/02/2009, 01:12 AM
I justed noticed you wanted a straight answer. There isn't one. :D

stricknine
01/02/2009, 01:39 AM
I plan on running a skimmer, sand, and live rock. Also added a media reactor for carbon and GFO, carbon for tox, and gfo to eliminate phosphate. You do not need either of the other filters you have, but looking on line, it looks like the emperor 400 can be used to run a sponge (for later), carbon in a sock, GFO in a sock, etc.(4 chambers?)

As for the post on natural filtration and how it can be a benefit to run a cannister for a possible Q tank, all you need is a sponge somewhere to get a bit of water flow and bio. My plan is to put a piece of sponge in a baffle of my sump, and when the need be-use the sponge in the HOB filter on my QT tank as its seeded with the beneficial bacterias req'd.

Hope that helps.

A.T.T.R
01/02/2009, 01:46 AM
LOL didnt mean to sound mean or anything but when your first posted your q you didnt have any details in your post or your sig line about the tank



with the k3's you should be good
keep in mind i had tanks running off powerheads and live rock alone ( no skimmer no filter)
water motions the most important thing

stricknine
01/02/2009, 01:50 AM
As for carbon and GFO, they both can be sold prepackaged according to tank size online or at the LFS. Otherwise take a look at the directions on the pkg as it differs from suppliers, grades, and sizes for both. 1 tbsp per 10 Gal if my memory serves me right.(which it usually doesnt)

Heres a thread I started on reactors, has a bit of helpful info. http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1537638 Also check out bulkreefsupply.com, they have a lot of good Q&A regarding different media. (carbon, etc.)

IslandCrow
01/02/2009, 08:00 AM
Your basic equipment is going to be your live rock, a good skimmer and powerheads. Neither the canister filter nor the HOB filter are necessary. I'd say the canister filter has more utility than the Emperor, but you need to clean it regularly, or it's going to start doing more harm than good. Canister filters are a more efficient way to run carbon, so if you already have it, I'd go ahead and use it for that. Otherwise, it's probably not worth the investment. I'm not sure what you're planning on using for a skimmer, but that's really where you want to spend your money. It will do far more good than all the carbon and sponge filters in the world.

Lastly, if you haven't looked into setting up a sump, they are worth their weight in gold. Not only do they get a lot of the unsightly equipment out of the display tank and increase your overall water volume, but they allow you to run a bigger and better (and yes, more expensive) skimmer. Setting up a sump looks like a pretty daunting task when you first look into it, but it's really not that bad, and they're well worth it. I ran my 46g without a sump for the first 6 months before finally adding one, and the sump has made my life much easier.

calli
01/02/2009, 10:54 AM
Ok I think I am just going to go with Emperor 400 with all Carbon both sides and bio wheels...

and ditch the Canister.. the stupid thing is a PITA to use..

If I have to I will go get another Emperor 400 and put them side by side with a skimmer..

Anything wrong with this idea?

wizzbane15
01/02/2009, 12:40 PM
I would use the canister only and keep the HOB for backup or a secondary system/QT when needed.

The Canister gives you the greatest variety in what filter media you can use. The trick is to use the right media not just in terms of its filtering capacity but its flow characteristics as well. The flow characteristics is where lots of folks go wrong and then come here and bash canister filters. 4 chambers is great. I would definitely stay away from carbon, its to agressive of a filter media.

Here is what I would do if I was setting it up: I would use Boyd's Chemi-Pure (it comes prepacked in its own mesh bag) in 1 or 2 of tyhe chambers depending on bio-load. I would also use a phosphate remover in one of the chambers but I would not use GFO. I particularily like Brightwell Aquatics phosphate removing resin. It doesn't break down like GFO and has super flow characteristics. The other chamber or two can then be tailored to whatever you have in the tank.

Playa-1
01/02/2009, 01:31 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14061628#post14061628 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by IslandCrow
Your basic equipment is going to be your live rock, a good skimmer and powerheads. Neither the canister filter nor the HOB filter are necessary. I'd say the canister filter has more utility than the Emperor, but you need to clean it regularly, or it's going to start doing more harm than good. Canister filters are a more efficient way to run carbon, so if you already have it, I'd go ahead and use it for that. Otherwise, it's probably not worth the investment. I'm not sure what you're planning on using for a skimmer, but that's really where you want to spend your money. It will do far more good than all the carbon and sponge filters in the world.

Lastly, if you haven't looked into setting up a sump, they are worth their weight in gold. Not only do they get a lot of the unsightly equipment out of the display tank and increase your overall water volume, but they allow you to run a bigger and better (and yes, more expensive) skimmer. Setting up a sump looks like a pretty daunting task when you first look into it, but it's really not that bad, and they're well worth it. I ran my 46g without a sump for the first 6 months before finally adding one, and the sump has made my life much easier.


This looks like a pretty straight answer to me.

:thumbsup:

calli
01/02/2009, 02:30 PM
Ok I have to say THANK YOU ALL VERY MUCH... I think I am going to take the risk on the Canister and just keep it in a bucket under the stand..

I just put the Emperor on the tank to size it up.. well it takes up HALF the tank... so if I had another one I would have no room for the Skimmer... so I guess I am going to use the Canister after all....

I am going to be getting a TUNZE 9010 Skimmer. I have thought of a sump but at this point I am just going to leave it out and maybe add one later on.

Ok Wizzbane or anyone else that is knowledgeable about this. I would like to prepare myself for a good size bio-load.

So if I went with Chemi-Pure in the first two and a phosphate remover in the 3rd then what would determine the 4th chamber?

I realize you said what ever you have in the tank... I am thinking

Bubble tip, Poylups, mushrooms, and further on think about other LPS MAYBE a Clam.

Fish.. maybe
2 x Clowns
1 x watchmen or Lawnmower
2 x Fire gobys
3 x something else not sure (schooling fish)
1 x or 2 x or 3 x various shirmps

For cleaning I would like to just get snails and starfish (no Crabs at first)

I would get a couple of blue or red hermits .. but not until the tank is well established.

KarlBob
01/02/2009, 04:40 PM
I started with a canister filter, with filter foam in the chambers. Within a couple of weeks I switched out the foam for live rock rubble. I kept it in a bucket, which sometimes filled up when the seal leaked. Eventually, I put the rubble in the tank and disconnected the canister altogether. Even loaded with live rock rubble, it was more trouble than it was worth.

My suggestion, if you aren't going to use a sump, is to stock the tank with plenty of live rock and find a good hang-on-back protein skimmer. You don't need the Emperor or the canister filter.

IslandCrow
01/02/2009, 07:09 PM
I really don't want to rain on your parade, but speaking from experience, adding a sump after the fact is a huge pain. I know it just sounds like one more thing to do, and you just want to get a tank set up, but if you think you're going to want one in the future, you're much better off doing it now. You certainly don't need a sump, though, so I'll leave it at that.

The bioload you're planning on is indeed very high. It's going to be a challenge to keep corals, especially with a hang-on back skimmer, since you'll probably be fighting nitrate problems with or without Chemipure. Also, in a 65 gallon tank, you're really not going to have much room for fish to school. As long you give yourself some time between adding fish, though, you'll get a feel for what your tank can support.

ludiNano
01/02/2009, 09:12 PM
I agree w/ islandcrow, It would be such pain to add one later, you should have tank drilled and plug it so you can have option to add over flow later. www.austinoceans.com can custom make any size, and they save a ton of space rather than the top to bottom over flows. ( had 6x4 overflow make for $70 for 29g.)

I think you should stay away from any kind of foam pads of any kind and just stick w/ filter media, and don't rule out carbon its utilized by soooo many reefers. And i remove the bio wheel it self if you run the emperor, it will be a nitrate factory just like foam/ floss/ ect.

calli
01/03/2009, 10:53 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14066968#post14066968 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ludiNano
And i remove the bio wheel it self if you run the emperor, it will be a nitrate factory just like foam/ floss/ ect.

Umm!! no I don't agree with this statement... someone clear this up who has experience on bio wheels... from what I have heard if anything you must be careful with the canister as it can become a nitrate factory.

jenglish
01/03/2009, 10:58 AM
both the canister and the biowheels can be a nitrate factory. I have 2 emperor 400s and a magnum 350 w/ biowheel attachements. One emp is in FW, one is gutted and turned into a fuge and the magnum has not been used in years. They are all good pieces of equipment for some applications. But a reef really isn't one of them IMO

calli
01/03/2009, 11:07 AM
I think I am going to go with Just the Skimmer and try the Canister out and go with a carbon and a phosphate remover and see how it goes from there... tweek it as needed...

I will be taking my time and testing testing testing water before any fish enter and also there will be a QT tank. If there is one thing I have learned from reading here and other places... "whatever you do TAKE YOUR TIME and don't be afraid to ask questions."

I can't say enough about this site. Out of all the forums and other information sites Reef Central has been the most helpful and understanding place to gain knowledge. Thank you

There is a lot of very knowledgeable people on here and I know that later when I have questions about trying new media I know the help will be there..

IslandCrow
01/03/2009, 01:46 PM
I wouldn't suggest using phosphate remover in your canister filter. The flow is too high, and it tends to pulverize the media. It's a good way to run carbon, though.