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mlee4984
01/02/2009, 09:58 AM
Hi Guys,

Hope everyone is having a great start to 2009! Happy New Year!!!

I'm coming to you guys with a problem, I recently purchased a small Blue Hippo Tang, (about 3 weeks ago) and it was doing fine. It was hiding in the live rocks and eating, but recently, it has formed a lot of white dots/specs on its body. I'm not sure if it's ICH... It seems to be eating the Mysis/Brine Shrimp I put in. I aslo leave a piece of cabbage in there, that's what my LFS recommended me to do. He seems to be very stressed while pooping, and it's pooping a lot...

I think I need to start getting some Nori for it, I'm thinking it's a dietary problem. Everything else in my tank is doing fine.

I've been also noticing there's a lot of algae buildup on the pebble bed and on the glass which I never had. Any ideas on how to get rid of it? I will post some pictures later on.

Thanks for any advice you can give me.
-Mike

jhildebrand
01/02/2009, 10:09 AM
Mike-

It sure sounds like ich. Did you quarantine this fish?

Stick with nori. I would think that a fish would have a heck of a time trying to digest cabbage. Not related to white spots though.

I'm assuming this tank was properly cycled? How new is it? Are you familiar with algae succession? When a tank is new it will go through algae phases as it stabilizes. If your tank is maintained right it will take care of itself. Another possibility is too high of nutrients. Are you skimming?

grayae4
01/02/2009, 10:11 AM
Tangs are notorius for getting ick. Chances are any other fish in the tank may also get it. I soaked flake food in garlic, took temperature in tank down a little and shortened how long lights were on for stress on fish. Make sure tank peramiters are all in check.

tvrsir
01/02/2009, 10:26 AM
never heard of cabbage... to feed tangs.. but lettuce works for me. but the main diet is nori and some meaty foods.
ich with tangs are pretty much i think inevitiable(sp) as long as it is eating you'll be fine.

loyalrogue
01/02/2009, 10:32 AM
Sorry Mike, but almost certainly your tang has Ich which means the entire tank is infected.
You can look to the sticky at the top of this forum for treatment options if you want to eliminate the problem, or you can go the other route of doing nothing but feed and hope your fish survive long enough to develop a partial immunity.

What other livestock do you have living in there and how long has the tank been setup/when did it finish it's cycle?

The algae is a separate issue and not related to the Ich.
It could be part of the natural "new tank" progression as jhildebrand mentioned, or it could have to do with other issues such as too long a light cycle, overfeeding, bad water parameters, etc.

As for diet, Nori (dried seaweed sheets available at LFS or oriental markets) is a good start and a must for grazers such as tangs, but there's nothing wrong with adding a variety of other edible plants to their diet as well.
Our tangs eat a variety of several different seaweeds & macro algaes, as well as romaine, kale, and cabbage from time to time.

rkelman
01/02/2009, 11:09 AM
"took temperature in tank down a little"

Turning the temperature down is only going to slow the inevitable. Take the fish out and QT / treat them. While in treatment I would increase the temperature to speed the life cycle of the ich and thus cure the fish faster. Leave the main tank fallow for 4-6 weeks and never add another fish without quarantining them.

mlee4984
01/02/2009, 11:13 AM
Thanks for the replies,

It's been set up for a few months, no more than 3 I would say.

Eheim canister
40lbs of live rock
Skimmer, forgot type but its hang on back

2 Perc Clowns
1 Yellow Tang
3 Damsels
1 Blue Hippo Tang

I didn't QT any of them, 1 of the Damsels had something growing on the fin but it went away after a few weeks and are strong now. I'll read up on the ICH removal if all the fish are contaminated...

::SIGH::

jenglish
01/02/2009, 11:18 AM
I'll be the one to bite and ask this,

Is this the 72 corner tank? WHile tank is big enough when most people make recomendations for tangs it is swimming room that is really critical. I can't say that this tang will not work in a corner tank at full size b/c I have never tried it. I would however look into this.

Of more immediate concern I agree it sounds like you have ich and the aboce advice is sound.

marinelife
01/02/2009, 11:35 AM
Stop worring about he ich, Feed him well with food soaked in vita-chem or selcon. If the fish is healthy he will live and get past the ich, he may get it again but with a healthy fish they can always over come it. Ich is not the end of the world like everyone always says.

Also leaving he lights off for a few says always seemed to help.

jenglish
01/02/2009, 12:18 PM
There is a lot of differing opinions on ich that generally fall into the active treatment school of thought or the nurse them through it school of thought. There are positives and negatives to both ideas and I have know people to succeed and fail in both schools. Read up and choose which works best for your unique situation.

mikersx02
01/02/2009, 12:38 PM
as long as the fish is eating, you are fine.

When I had ich bad in the beginning, I got a sterilizer and put it in line with the eheim canister I have. IT helps knock out part of the ich life cycle and helped shorten the outbreaks. Food for thought...

In case you havent read, be careful what "anti-ich" treatments you use... some contain copper which are bad for inverts..

wizzbane15
01/02/2009, 12:46 PM
I have to agree on the idea that ICH is not the end of the world. Tangs are notorious ICH magnets, but nothing a good high quality diet can't fix. Also, BHT's are in need of substantially more meat andt protien in their diet than greens.

Food for thought (pun totally intended).

loyalrogue
01/02/2009, 01:42 PM
Of course Ich isn't "the end of the world"... it's nothing more than a small parasite that thrives to unnatural levels in close quarters and leaves hundreds of small open wounds on your fish which could become infected.

It's not really any different than your dog/cat and home becoming infested with fleas and ticks... if you're all strong and healthy then you'll survive being bitten everyday, and if you're all lucky noone will get any infections or diseases in any of your sores.

.... funny thing is, I've never heard of a real vet giving the advice of just opening more cans of dogfood to clear Fido of any kind of parasites, yet that same advice is repeated as gospel over and over again by aquarists who should know better on these boards all the time.

rkelman
01/02/2009, 04:19 PM
I have to agree with loyalrogue. It is best to treat the fish and rid the tank of it if at all possible. It won't kill healthy fish often but it doesn't mean it should be left unchecked.

rkelman
01/02/2009, 04:26 PM
I have to agree with loyalrogue. It is best to treat the fish and rid the tank of it if at all possible. It won't kill healthy fish often but it doesn't mean it should be left unchecked.

raen
01/02/2009, 06:40 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14062680#post14062680 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by marinelife
Stop worring about he ich, Feed him well with food soaked in vita-chem or selcon. If the fish is healthy he will live and get past the ich, he may get it again but with a healthy fish they can always over come it. Ich is not the end of the world like everyone always says.

Also leaving he lights off for a few says always seemed to help.

+1, I personally have had a major run in with ich. I qt'd the fish for 6 weeks, hypo, and the ich still came back. I soaked the food in garlic (controversy, I know) and fed the stink out of the fish. She is fine to this day. Keep your chin up, it is a VERY debated subject this ich thing. Live and learn, it will all work out. :)

jenglish
01/02/2009, 06:42 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14063524#post14063524 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by loyalrogue
Of course Ich isn't "the end of the world"... it's nothing more than a small parasite that thrives to unnatural levels in close quarters and leaves hundreds of small open wounds on your fish which could become infected.

It's not really any different than your dog/cat and home becoming infested with fleas and ticks... if you're all strong and healthy then you'll survive being bitten everyday, and if you're all lucky noone will get any infections or diseases in any of your sores.

.... funny thing is, I've never heard of a real vet giving the advice of just opening more cans of dogfood to clear Fido of any kind of parasites, yet that same advice is repeated as gospel over and over again by aquarists who should know better on these boards all the time.
+1

raen
01/02/2009, 06:43 PM
PS, one last thing. You should DEFINATLY QT the fish. Treat the tank, and feed the fish. Kind of like chicken soup for the cold and flu. You always feel better with a full belly, and are more likely to heal more quickly when fed and hydrated.

jenglish
01/02/2009, 06:49 PM
I will say that while I am on the HT side of the argument, I think that a fish should generally be nursed to the point of showing no visible signs through garlic, feeding, maintaining water conditions etc. WHile ich can do permenant damage I think rushing a very very infected fish into the admittable stress of HT and any of the treatments is a mistake. again thats JMHO.

loyalrogue
01/02/2009, 07:20 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14065399#post14065399 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by raen
...it is a VERY debated subject this ich thing.

Actually, it's not a debated subject at all among professionals.
It's only a debated subject among hobbyists who don't know any better or refuse to educate themselves.

Every professional publication on fish disease and treatment all say the same thing, which completely contradicts the "just feed" proponents.
Please show me just one authority, professional publication, public aquarium, or scientific study that backs up the claim of "feed and forget" for parasite treatment?
If I were to tell the state inspector during a site visit that my method of dealing with parasites was to ignore them and just feed, they would yank my license on the spot.

Luckily (or not) there's no laws governing the treatment and care of fish for the hobbyist so everyone is free to follow any advice no matter how bad it may be.
The people who give the "feed and forget" advice for dealing with Ich are no different than the kid at the LFS who tells you it's OK to keep a tang in a 10gal nano, or that it's just fine to use straight tap water in your reef tank... yeah, it's not the "end of the world" to do it and you may even be successful for a while, but it's certainly not considered Best Management Practices, humane treatment of your aquaria, or good advice.

marinelife
01/02/2009, 08:34 PM
interesting! Nice way to bash other members for telling someone what works. When you do not quarantine the fish and it is in the display tank, food and vitamins will help. I have not had ich in my tank for years even with fish left in the tank after ich was present.

jenglish
01/02/2009, 09:40 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14066243#post14066243 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by marinelife
interesting! Nice way to bash other members for telling someone what works. When you do not quarantine the fish and it is in the display tank, food and vitamins will help. I have not had ich in my tank for years even with fish left in the tank after ich was present.

I would agree that the statement you are referrring to was not at all phrased nicely. I would still agree with the information behind it. I would also propose that you still have ich in the tank you mention. It may not have been visible for years and the fish may have developed a degree of immunity to that strain. Likely under a microscope you would see damage to the gill structure. Given the proper enviroment a fish can survive ich and live a long life. I know of know long term studies of whethor or not it affects their lifespan and I doubt I ever will as there is simply no money in it for anyone to do such a study. I think that if you had a sufficient enviroment for a fish and no HT sufficient there are cases where the treatment can be worse than the parasite. A yellow and a blue tang both in a 72 corner is likely not going to be a tank that long term can keep tangs relatively healthy with ich. By the time they get large and it rears its ugly head visibly again it would be much harder to treat them. Thats JMHO and you are welcome to disagree.

marinelife
01/02/2009, 10:18 PM
One of my 3 hippo tangs is 13 years old and still going, has not had ich in years, I have added fish since then and none have gotten it.

jenglish
01/02/2009, 11:28 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14067018#post14067018 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by marinelife
One of my 3 hippo tangs is 13 years old and still going, has not had ich in years, I have added fish since then and none have gotten it.

given what we know about crypto and its life cycle I am not a bit surprised by this nor does it give me any cause to reconsider my position. It certianly speaks very well of your husbandry skills that no fish has become stressed enough to show visible signs

raen
01/02/2009, 11:40 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14065676#post14065676 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by loyalrogue
Actually, it's not a debated subject at all among professionals.
It's only a debated subject among hobbyists who don't know any better or refuse to educate themselves.

Every professional publication on fish disease and treatment all say the same thing, which completely contradicts the "just feed" proponents.
Please show me just one authority, professional publication, public aquarium, or scientific study that backs up the claim of "feed and forget" for parasite treatment?
If I were to tell the state inspector during a site visit that my method of dealing with parasites was to ignore them and just feed, they would yank my license on the spot.

Luckily (or not) there's no laws governing the treatment and care of fish for the hobbyist so everyone is free to follow any advice no matter how bad it may be.
The people who give the "feed and forget" advice for dealing with Ich are no different than the kid at the LFS who tells you it's OK to keep a tang in a 10gal nano, or that it's just fine to use straight tap water in your reef tank... yeah, it's not the "end of the world" to do it and you may even be successful for a while, but it's certainly not considered Best Management Practices, humane treatment of your aquaria, or good advice.

Well the whole" feed it and forget it line", is the most ridiculous thing I've read. Nowhere in my comment did I say to forget anything! Actually what I said was, to QT the sick fish, treat it, treat the tank, and keep the fish healthy while doing so. When I had my problem with ich, I did go to the professionals, I read and discussed with Paul B, Melev, Waterkeeper, Capn H, ect as well as read the literature on the subject. I successfully rid my tank and the fish of ich, and have not had an occurrence since. So I feel that the advice from the professionals that I had received, was good advice, which BTW, I would follow again. One last thing, most articles that you read on the subject do differ, and often differ dramatically, so I would call that a debate. Whether it is to run hypo, use chemicals, low temps, garlic, ect, you have to use threads and forums such as RC to get good advice from people who have tried and succeeded with the above mentioned methods.

mlee4984
01/03/2009, 10:55 AM
Hi Guys,

Thanks for all the advice and support, I didn't think I was going to stir up so much tension but this is more information that I started with. Again, thanks to RC community! I still have to do more research on this matter, as of now, the Blue Hippo is still eatting a lot but looks very stressed.

-Mike

jenglish
01/03/2009, 11:55 AM
No worries about stirring trouble;)

I'm just glad we could give you such clear advice!:lol: