LFP's Xenon Projection and Cree LED DIY lighting system.

[liveforphysics]

You've not seen lighting like this before.


http://glassbox-design.com/2009/part-1-lfps-xenon-and-led-reef-lighting-system/

Enjoy!


-Luke

[Godoftheseas]

That is incredible i cant wait to see the growth.

[areze]

what do you get? a waste of money.

10 HID bulbs? or... 2 250w MH bulbs. Ill replace 2 bulbs thanks. and Ill put them on a sweet reflector for vertical penetration of the light for maximum efficiency.

and Ill use MH bulbs that have a spectrum that is specialized to precise wavelengths needed for photosynthesis and flourescence in corals.

the LEDs are nice, the automotive HID bulbs are a total waste unfortunatly. sorry.

*we actually had a very recent thread with another poster trying this automotive HID idea.

[NanoReefWanabe]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14069980#post14069980 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by areze
what do you get? a waste of money.

10 HID bulbs? or... 2 250w MH bulbs. Ill replace 2 bulbs thanks. and Ill put them on a sweet reflector for vertical penetration of the light for maximum efficiency.

and Ill use MH bulbs that have a spectrum that is specialized to precise wavelengths needed for photosynthesis and flourescence in corals.

the LEDs are nice, the automotive HID bulbs are a total waste unfortunatly. sorry.

*we actually had a very recent thread with another poster trying this automotive HID idea.

i am not sure you could light a 300g tank with 2 250 watt bulbs...and not light the glass at the same time...

he said he used a spectral analysis of the bulbs to chose the ones in the correct photosynthectic range.

you did read the article right?

anyway...LFP, neat idea...it would be nice to clean up the overall look of the fixture though...after all cleanliness is next to godliness, and we are certainly trying to achieve godliness in this hobby..

[areze]

and Im not sure that he did light a 300g tank with 9 HID bulbs.

just because you put a light on there means nothing... I lit my 240g tank with 2 250w MHs. did it make it optimal? lol no depite it supporting SPS and clams, now I have 1800w on it.

about all the setup accomplished was having more point sources to distribute less light around which admittedly just 2 MHs despite IMO more par, would not have had the coverage to do from a purely physical limitation of spread. which is for our own benefit, as a greater spread doesnt meet our needs for par or vertical entry to the water.

[Mishap]

There are a few manufacturer's out there using the HID lamps now. I've seen 150w versions so far and they are very impressive.

I like where you're going with this so please keep us updated on growth and performance!

[Phillybean]

I really want to see a par comparison of various spots of the tank (like Melev when he upgraded his lights/reflectors)

[seawandrr]

Why all the negativity in a DYI forum? If you want to discuss standard 250w installations, there's an equipment forum for that, go have fun.

DYI can take at least two forms... replicating commercially available products for less money by building them yourself, or experimenting with ideas and solutions that aren't commercially available.

LFP's projects falls into the latter category, pushing the boundaries of what can be done with VFD's, new ideas in skimmer designs, improved hand-build venturi designs, LED's, etc..

I'm really glad he has the time, knowledge, and drive to push the boundaries in reefing technology and then share the results with us. It has already benifited my DYI projects helping shift them from just creating cheaper solutions, to being able to do things that aren't commercially available, such as VFD's on closed loops.



<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14069980#post14069980 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by areze
what do you get? a waste of money.

10 HID bulbs? or... 2 250w MH bulbs. Ill replace 2 bulbs thanks. and Ill put them on a sweet reflector for vertical penetration of the light for maximum efficiency.

and Ill use MH bulbs that have a spectrum that is specialized to precise wavelengths needed for photosynthesis and flourescence in corals.

the LEDs are nice, the automotive HID bulbs are a total waste unfortunatly. sorry.

*we actually had a very recent thread with another poster trying this automotive HID idea.

[areze]

as I posted in the other thread, xenon lights are less efficient than MH lights. and ongoing costs of multiple bulbs are more expensive.

thats end of the game. all for improving the status quo. but that doesnt mean you throw reason out the window for the sake of being different.

or have I overlooked some detail?

I mean, I look at a list of lighting designs and efficiencies and I see MH and I see 2 things more efficient than MH, LEDs and high pressure sodium lighting. sodium lighting however is the wrong spectrum(but if anyone can DIY to change that, Id be all for that) and LEDs, well we know what LEDs can do, and there is a huge world out there for DIY with LEDs, but its pricey, but worth pursueing anyway.

[seawandrr]

I've never seen Luke throw reason out the window... If you go back and read his write-up, he has very specific reasons to try this, as far as visual (light cut-off control), and watt-usage goals for his tank.

Just because someone is willing to spend money, or time, or some other resource to try and achieve either a visual goal such as not lighting the glass. Or even more importantly, the true inventors spirit, trying new things, new ideas, even before they're efficient or cost effective, just to experiment with how they work, if they work, to advance our base of knowledge. Heck, I bet he even has *fun* trying this stuff out...

The key is, do they have the engineering knowledge, tools, material resources, etc, to do it... Yes, reason is sometimes thrown out the window when non-engineering types try experimenting without understanding the core details.

Heck, I think even his tank design is crazy... plywood bottom, stainless frame, magical high-tech sealent mixed up by some guy who probably can't post his name publically. But the point is he has the resources and knowledge and contacts to pull this stuff off, and we're all better for his experiments.

I'm looking forward to the onging results of this, even if I never decide to head this direction with my tank lighting. I've already used his VFD info, and Venturi build info in my projects, two out of how many, 5-6 major experimentation intiatives isn't bad.

[A.T.T.R]

\
if he could actualy SHOW some numbers then he may be onto somthing

id like to see the par of these bulbs at a distance of 12 inches throu air from center then wed have some numbers to start talking about.


probloms start when things such as this are seen by new hobbiest who don fully grasp taht it is experimental/

tell me just cause 1 LED type system worked ho many people do you see wanting to make light systems from LED's bought at raioshack

[liveforphysics]

Seawandrr-

Thank you.

In a sea of closed minds, its great to have someone with their head above water.

[MeuserReef]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14073608#post14073608 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by liveforphysics
In a sea of closed minds, its great to have someone with their head above water.

My thoughts exactly...

I (personally) applaud your efforts to reduce the electrical consumption of your reef and to "create", rather than "replicate".

How do you feel you did with respect to PAR penetration with these lamps vs. the T5/MH/LED setup you had previously?

[areze]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14073608#post14073608 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by liveforphysics
Seawandrr-

Thank you.

In a sea of closed minds, its great to have someone with their head above water.

since when are logical shortcoming "close minds"

if you want to discuss it because your right and there is something I dont know, then we can have a great thread here. if you want to just dismiss my information, despite being true, then youve only proven my point. no use in an engineer if he turns a blind eye to problems.

Im going to fly to the moon with water and baking soda, and to hell with anyone that points out why I cant

[MeuserReef]

areze... why so bitter sounding? If it turns out that LFP's lighting scheme is inferior to other "off-the-shelf" reef lighting setups, so what? The effort given here to CREATE and SHARE is what this forum (quite frankly) needs more of!

[JACOXVIII]

areze is wrong and always will be :)

i have been at it for 3 hr to day back and forth
but areze will not give up

this is a DIY
thank you liveforphysics plz keep it coming
thank you seawandrr

this is what he think is fact / logic
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1538145&perpage=25&pagenumber=3



'""Originally posted by areze
I think its time for hard numbers to put this to rest...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luminous_efficacy
Lighting type lumens/watt efficiency
xenon arc lamp 30–50lm/w 4.4–7.3%
metal halide lamp 65–115lm/w 9.5–17%

end of game, you barking up a dead end trying to use xenon lamps.

want to know why we dont use MH in cars? too sensitive to vibration, they wouldnt be reliable. they also have a significant warm up period for automotive use.

just for fun
white LED 10–100 1.5–15%

I want to mention that the spectrums that we work with for both xenon and MH are closer to the bottom of the lm/w range. for LEDs, 10 is for 5mm LEDs, 100 is low voltage cree XRE, in reality a PFO solaris is probably in the 90lm/w range. """""


so he skimmed wikipedia

a thought the hid kits LFP is using are xenon arc lamp
but they are mh with xenon gas to make the fire faster / cold weather

look what i found from your link
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Headla...9_light_sources

HID stands for high-intensity discharge, a technical term for the electric arc that produces the light. The high intensity of the arc comes from metallic salts that are vapourised within the arc chamber. These lamps are formally known as gas-discharge burners, and produce more light for a given level of power consumption than ordinary tungsten and tungsten-halogen bulbs. Because of the increased amounts of light available from HID burners relative to halogen bulbs, HID headlamps producing a given beam pattern can be made smaller than halogen headlamps producing a comparable beam pattern. Alternatively, the larger size can be retained, in which case the xenon headlamp can produce a more robust beam pattern.

Automotive HID lamps are commonly called 'xenon headlamps', though they are actually metal halide lamps that contain xenon gas. The xenon gas allows the lamps to produce minimally adequate light immediately upon powerup, and accelerates the lamps' run-up time. If argon were used instead, as is commonly done in street lights and other stationary metal halide lamp applications, it would take several minutes for the lamps to reach their full output


so a metal halide lamp 65–115 [23] 9.5–17%

and a HID headlamp burners produce between 2,800 and 3,500 lumens from between 35 and 38 watts of electrical power

that 80--100

[liveforphysics]

Areze, I truly do hate making this sort of reply, but I think you had to know this was coming to you.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14069980#post14069980 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by areze
what do you get? a waste of money.
I hadn’t even known you were the manager of my finances. Does this mean all things you perceive to be expensive are a waste of money? The reality that exists outside of the perceptions of Areze gives me reduced costs in all areas except initial investment, which is higher than many other types of lighting, but still much lower than some.
10 HID bulbs? or... 2 250w MH bulbs. Ill replace 2 bulbs thanks. and Ill put them on a sweet reflector for vertical penetration of the light for maximum efficiency.
I wouldn’t dream of stopping you from using a pair of 250w MH bulbs. I have 24 square feet of bottom area, and I’ve used a few different types of lighting for my tank. 4x400w MH bulbs, 4x250w MH bulbs, then 12x54w T5HO + 4x70w MH + LEDs. Now I’m using xenon/LED, and while the T5HO setup gave me very good lighting performance, I’m very happy with the unique attributes that the Xenon lighting provides me that MH or T5 can’t provide.
and Ill use MH bulbs that have a spectrum that is specialized to precise wavelengths needed for photosynthesis and fluorescence in corals.
I sorted through and tested a whole pile of different high Kelvin Xenon lamps. The bulbs I’m using have excellent spectrums for photosynthesis.
the LEDs are nice, the automotive HID bulbs are a total waste unfortunately. sorry.
Please don’t feel pressured to spend your money on them, or the feel need to pity and console my spending.
*we actually had a very recent thread with another poster trying this automotive HID idea.
I do recall someone making a fool of themselves in that thread as well.
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14070183#post14070183 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by areze
and Im not sure that he did light a 300g tank with 9 HID bulbs.
You’re right. It’s just a massively labor intensive practical joke, or perhaps it’s all just photoshop.
just because you put a light on there means nothing... I lit my 240g tank with 2 250w MHs. did it make it optimal? lol no depite it supporting SPS and clams, now I have 1800w on it.

about all the setup accomplished was having more point sources to distribute less light around which admittedly just 2 MHs despite IMO more par, would not have had the coverage to do from a purely physical limitation of spread. which is for our own benefit, as a greater spread doesnt meet our needs for par or vertical entry to the water.
If you can’t manage to get your tank lit with less than 1800w of light, it must not be possible as you’ve shown all laws of nature strictly prohibit its occurrence. If I only could have known this sooner, it could have saved me so much time. My light meter must also be involved in this elaborate plot to fool me into thinking that I’m lighting my tank more than adequately. I actually didn’t even end up mounting all the parts I bought, just because I was all ready reaching into the photo-inhibition levels of intensity with only 9 projectors.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14071382#post14071382 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by areze
as I posted in the other thread, xenon lights are less efficient than MH lights. and ongoing costs of multiple bulbs are more expensive.
To re-lamp my previous setup required 12x T5 bulbs and 4x MH bulbs. I would normally spend about $500 yearly to re-lamp. To completely re-lamp my current setup I will spend around $200. Xenon lamps also don’t have phosphors to degrade, so it will be interesting to see what the re-lamping interval will be.
Xenon gas discharge lamps can and do achieve 100lm/w. They have no inefficiency of Phosphor conversions associated with fluorescent and MH. The efficiency numbers you are seeing are for pure Xenon short arc bulbs. This is an entirely different bulb type.

thats end of the game. all for improving the status quo. but that doesnt mean you throw reason out the window for the sake of being different. or have I overlooked some detail?
Perhaps even a few.


I mean, I look at a list of lighting designs and efficiencies and I see MH and I see 2 things more efficient than MH, LEDs and high pressure sodium lighting. sodium lighting however is the wrong spectrum(but if anyone can DIY to change that, Id be all for that) and LEDs, well we know what LEDs can do, and there is a huge world out there for DIY with LEDs, but its pricey, but worth pursueing anyway.
Contrary to popular belief, your corals could care less about bulb lumens. Your corals only care about the intensity and spectrum of the light that contacts their photosynthetic parts. The beauty of this system is in the delivery of light to the corals rather than indiscriminately to all the places that I’m not trying to grow things.
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14074225#post14074225 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by areze
since when are logical shortcoming "close minds"

if you want to discuss it because your right and there is something I dont know, then we can have a great thread here. if you want to just dismiss my information, despite being true, then youve only proven my point. no use in an engineer if he turns a blind eye to problems.
I hope I was able to clear up some things for you.


Im going to fly to the moon with water and baking soda, and to hell with anyone that points out why I cant
Don’t feel pressured to send a postcard upon arrival.

[Ehaze]

that is verry cool, but not cost effective. T5/MH still own this hobby.

[liveforphysics]

My tank has a lot of bottom area. It’s roughly 6ft x4ft. That’s about 24 square feet of bottom area, or about 2.2 meters squared. If you were to pick a number like 500PAR to have across the whole bottom area, you that you only need to get about 6,000lumens of light to actually arrive where you need it. I’m making somewhere around 40,000-45,000lumens total, and projecting it with great efficiency only into the areas I want to grow things. By contrast, my 4x250w setup made around 70,000 lumens total, but wasted the bulk of this of this light doing things like giving the surface of my glass 150-300PAR, and making the whole room glow like a spaceship is landing.
I’m currently getting readings on the bottom of my tank between ~200-650PAR. The higher numbers coming from the areas where multiple spots are over lapping. Keep in mind that I position my lights to not hit the entire bottom area of the tank, but I direct them to just land upon the areas which have corals I wish to grow. Most exciting were my readings sweeping the sensor along the surface of the glass and getting 4PAR as my peak reading. I think that with some spot positioning adjustments and turning the brighter reflective sides of the rocks inward that I will be able to reduce even this meager level of light hitting the glass.

I think I’ve got an analogy that seems appropriate. If you are on a battle field, and you have a number of targets in the distance you wish to shoot, there are many methods you could use. You could mount giant machine guns indiscriminately, and try to have a portion of them directed towards the battle, others blasting the sky and sides and ground and elsewhere. If you continued to add enough machine guns, you can cover the areas.
Another option is to use sniper rifles, and take the time to aim them onto your targets. They can both get the same job done in the end. The second option seems more appealing to my tastes.

[BeanAnimal]

JACO my friend, as I pointed out in the other thread, you have all sorts of things and contexts confused. Your making less sense than areze in your attempts to show him to be wrong.

As I pointed out in the other thread, and Luke has started to point out here...

Lets take a 10' x 10' tank and light it (2) ways.

First lets bath all 100 square feet with a 100% efficent light that consumes 100W even though only 50 square feet of that tank contain living creatures that need intense light. Lets assume that the light is even. So now we have about 1W intense light per sqaure foot of tank but 50W are being pretty much wasted.

Now lets bath that 100sq foot tank with 500W worth of light that is only 50% efficient. That is 250W worth of intense light entering the tank. Lets divide that light into 50 fixtures that produce 1 sqaure foot of intense light. That is 5W of intense light per each of the 50 zones. Lets call it 3W and some spillover into the "dark" areas.

So with setup #1 we use 1000W and lighjt the whole setup to the same intensity but only get about 1W of intensity in each of the 50 coral zones.

With setup #2 we use 500W of which only 250W is available but we get over 3W of intensity over each of the 50 coral zones and enough spillover to light the tank.

Setup #2 is much less efficient in terms of lumens (or PAR) per watt, but it uses a fraction of the electricity to provide the corals with MORE light where needed.

You just learned the difference between AREA (flood) lighting and ZONE (spot) lighting. Sometimes the most efficient technology is not the most efficient method.

Each method has pros and cons. In our case it is mostly aesthetics between the different types of lamps and combinations of lamps. If you do not like the "spotlight" look, then this is not for you at all. In Japan, the look has become the rage from what I have read.

[BeanAnimal]

Doh!

Luke you beat me to it and posted while I was typing.

[RussM]

Innovative, daring, well-researched, and well-executed projects like this are why I've become addicted to this DIY forum.

[JACOXVIII]

you missed the point I'm not saying light the whole dam tank
my point is that these lights have much more intensity and spectrum then you give them credit

""Xenon gas discharge lamps can and do achieve 100lm/w. They have no inefficiency of Phosphor conversions associated with fluorescent and MH. The efficiency numbers you are seeing are for pure Xenon short arc bulbs. This is an entirely different bulb type.""

this is what i have been trying to get across
thanks LFP

[BeanAnimal]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14074959#post14074959 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JACOXVIII
you missed the point No I have not missed the point :)

my point is that these lights have much more intensity and spectrum then you give them credit Sorry my friend, but you can't hold me to comments I have not made. Please try to keep what has been said in context to where it was and and why.

You have taken up a cause on (2) of these threads but done so with a very clear gap in understanding of the technology. You are riding the coat tails of other's remarks to frame your own comments and it is getting you in trouble :)

When responding, please try to keep my comments and your subsuquent remarks in context to the threads they were made in. You are mixing context between two threads and confusing several different aspects of the technology being discussed.

I am not here to quibble with you, but rather to participate in Luke's lighting discussion. Again, I aplaud your enthusiasm with regard to this subject, but don't step in too deep before you know where the bottom is.

I attempted (as did Luke) to explain why the automotive HID lamps may work out in his setup. I also pointed out that your counter "attacks" towards areze may be well intentioned, but are not really well supported. Lets move forward, shall we.

[THEUNION1]

Great idea i love this concept and also like the effects of "spot" lighting. I like the dark spots in the reef, makes it seem so surreal.

Very good!

P.s. Lets see more tank shots.

[Lionel]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14074796#post14074796 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by liveforphysics
By contrast, my 4x250w setup made around 70,000 lumens total, but wasted the bulk of this of this light doing things like giving the surface of my glass 150-300PAR, and making the whole room glow like a spaceship is landing.

It seems to me maybe that's exactly what areze is trying to accomplish.. he needs light for his baking soda rocketship..

[dohc97]

I happen to be friends with Eric over at the glassbox so i read the article before coming in here to find this thread. I have to say that this idea was floating around my head for awhile, check out my signature ;) which has been there for over a year. Its great to see someone implement this and im looking forward to more pictures and actual growth.

[Electrobes]

I find this interesting and though the negativity we could do without, the debate/proof and showings is neat to observe. Thank you for sharing liveforphysics and I hope to see more... pics! :D

PS - That analogy was great.. thank you both LFP and Bean Animal for sharing... even I understood it ;)

[BeanAnimal]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14077219#post14077219 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Electrobes
I find this interesting and though the negativity we could do without, the debate/proof and showings is neat to observe. Thank you for sharing liveforphysics and I hope to see more... pics! :D

PS - That analogy was great.. thank you both LFP and Bean Animal for sharing... even I understood it ;)

Other than the fact that I nessed up a few ZEROS here and there.

For clarity sake, lets do it again with more reasonable numbers:

(2) setups.

#1 = 1000W worth of electricity 90% efficent lighting over 100 square feet or about 9W per square foot over the whole tank.

#2 = 650W worth of 80% efficent lighting over 50 square feet (spotlights on 50 corals) or about 10.4W per square foot

So it is certainly possible to use less efficient lighting and still get more usable light where it is needed and use less overall electricity.

Does Luke's setup pan-out number wise? I dunno... It is an interesting project nonetheless. The first indicator will be how well the corals look mid to long term :)

[jerryz]

Bean you touched on the very Japanese style/ feel of this lighting. a distinct advantage is in the ability to "individually" target individual pieces with lighting spectrum and intensity wise most appropriate for them. I'm very interested in the particular bulbs chosen and some more info on how it's wired up. etc.

[areze]

could we see the spectral analysis that you did? youve reffered to the spectrum a few times, it would certainly go a long way to convincing me that Im mistaken.

perhaps some par readings as well? because your right, lumens are crap and can be misleading, so I presume youve measured par.

[areze]

btw, Ive read that tropical climates, par at sea level is somewhere around 2000.

unfortunatly with my 1800w that you talk about photoinhibition, but I have not even begun to approach 2000par at the water surface. if only! granted I guess Ive "wasted" much of the light on areas that dont have coral. but I like it :)

where did you find the photoinhibition levels for your corals anyway? I have never seen such "hard" numbers published.

[Fishboy93]

Awesome set up LFP! I've followed all of your work from the stainless/rimless/plywood tank, the VFD driven dart, the LFP super venturi, and that crazy new skimmer and am always amazed by your ingenuity. Are you going to release the brand/type/kelvin of HID bulb that you found to be of the best spectrum or do you not want to give away the secret just yet?

[JACOXVIII]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14074868#post14074868 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BeanAnimal
JACO my friend, as I pointed out in the other thread, you have all sorts of things and contexts confused. Your making less sense than areze in your attempts to show him to be wrong.

As I pointed out in the other thread, and Luke has started to point out here...

Lets take a 10' x 10' tank and light it (2) ways.

First lets bath all 100 square feet with a 100% efficent light that consumes 100W even though only 50 square feet of that tank contain living creatures that need intense light. Lets assume that the light is even. So now we have about 1W intense light per sqaure foot of tank but 50W are being pretty much wasted.

Now lets bath that 100sq foot tank with 500W worth of light that is only 50% efficient. That is 250W worth of intense light entering the tank. Lets divide that light into 50 fixtures that produce 1 sqaure foot of intense light. That is 5W of intense light per each of the 50 zones. Lets call it 3W and some spillover into the "dark" areas.

So with setup #1 we use 1000W and lighjt the whole setup to the same intensity but only get about 1W of intensity in each of the 50 coral zones.

With setup #2 we use 500W of which only 250W is available but we get over 3W of intensity over each of the 50 coral zones and enough spillover to light the tank.

Setup #2 is much less efficient in terms of lumens (or PAR) per watt, but it uses a fraction of the electricity to provide the corals with MORE light where needed.

You just learned the difference between AREA (flood) lighting and ZONE (spot) lighting. Sometimes the most efficient technology is not the most efficient method.

Each method has pros and cons. In our case it is mostly aesthetics between the different types of lamps and combinations of lamps. If you do not like the "spotlight" look, then this is not for you at all. In Japan, the look has become the rage from what I have read.

never have i said to use these a a flood light i have talked about spotlighting from the start

and to what Luke has started to point out here...
has all been pointed to areze has
post

sorry that i was using lumens per watt and not spectral output and intensity
but when you look at the charts for a mh and these hid bulbs not standard xenon the are near the same

[saltydog64]

luke...............

You are the man.................and I just bet u in your near future more than one OEM will be in touch with you as I think your on to something that could be big......now I'm not a "tree hugger" or a greenie by no means BUT saving power is what could save our hobby............just my 2cents....

Keep up the great work !!!!!!!!!!!!!

Dick

[BeanAnimal]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14080257#post14080257 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JACOXVIII
never have i said to use these a a flood light i have talked about spotlighting from the start Nobody said you did. Context my friend... you keep taking comments out of context to formulate your responses.

[liveforphysics]

Thank you folks for all the kind words.

areze- If you read my response to you, i give PAR values Im seeing on the bottom of my tank.

Here is one article giving photo-inhibition numbers for a favorite coral of mine, montipora undata. Inhibition begins to occur at roughly 200par for this species.
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2008/3/aafeature2/view

Here is photo-saturation data for a number of other species. They didn't push all the tests to the point of complete inhibition of photosynthesis, but they do show that point where additional light starts causing less photosynthesis.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2007/3/aafeature1/view

I may have too much light on my corals! I could change the current sensing shunt resistors in the ballast to lower the power of the HIDs (or remove some) if needed, and I do have full control over the output of the LEDs, so I can fix the problem if needed.


I will be doing a second look at the spectrum once I reach 200 hours of burn-in time on the bulbs. I will try to find something better than the Perkin Elmer Lambda POS that the community college physics lab I volunteer at had available, and then I will post some graphs.

I just read a very interesting article

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2008/12/aafeature1

It makes me want to re-evaluate my bulb choices to exclude the purple bulbs that had a few heavy red lines... The more I learn about corals, the more I realize they do not want anything like full spectrum lighting. I'm glad most of the Xenon bulbs and all of the LEDs are mainly composed of strong blue spikes in useful photosynthetic wavelengths.


Best Wishes,
-Luke

[liveforphysics]

Part two of the article!

http://glassbox-design.com/2009/part-2-lfp’s-xenon-and-led-reef-lighting-system/


This is a neat picture that shows you the intensity and focus of the spot lights. This is the second stage of the lighting turning on in the morning. My last setup used 7 stages of lighting between sunrise to sunset, I set this up to only use 5 stages, but I like the contrast in the lighting stages much more with this setup.

http://img55.imageshack.us/img55/3564/gp1040436largebl3.jpg

[JACOXVIII]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14075033#post14075033 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BeanAnimal
No I have not missed the point :)

[b] Sorry my friend, but you can't hold me to comments I have not made. Please try to keep what has been said in context to where it was and and why.

You have taken up a cause on (2) of these threads but done so with a very clear gap in understanding of the technology. You are riding the coat tails of other's remarks to frame your own comments and it is getting you in trouble :)

When responding, please try to keep my comments and your subsuquent remarks in context to the threads they were made in. You are mixing context between two threads and confusing several different aspects of the technology being discussed.

I am not here to quibble with you, but rather to participate in Luke's lighting discussion. Again, I aplaud your enthusiasm with regard to this subject, but don't step in too deep before you know where the bottom is.

I attempted (as did Luke) to explain why the automotive HID lamps may work out in his setup. I also pointed out that your counter "attacks" towards areze may be well intentioned, but are not really well supported. Lets move forward, shall we.

sorry man but i do not like the way you post your context to always try and make someone look slow
you have said that i'm not up to speed
help speed me up

in the other thread i have been all for these lights and the way LFP has used them

on the other hand you have not
in more then 1 post all you have stated is how this will not work

your very first post over there that you posted in regards to hummermaniac88 wanting to use these hid bulbs is below

Originally posted by BeanAnimal
Your setup will work for a Fish Only tank, but will not suffice for a Reef Tank. The spectral output and intensity will not be correct.

or did you forget?



this was my first post over on the other thread

""ok fun we had the same idea http://reefcentral.com/forums/showt...hreadid=1538451
i think it will work good
they all said led would not work at first but it does
but i thought a small group the hid like 3 or 4
1 green 1 blue 1 white 1 pink or red
maybe 3 in a triangle at the top of a lumen bright so it would beam all of the light right to the bottom of the tank""

yes i did not talk about the spotlighting but the link i posted did
then again in my 2nd or 3rd post i had links to the-glassbox about the japan spotlights


""coat tails"" ?
i have been for the hids from the start all over the other post you state how it would not work

but know you say that you are here to participate in Luke's lighting discussion
and how spotlighting may work
you must see luke's coat tails


I'm ?
""mixing context between two threads and confusing several different aspects of the technology being discussed..""

ok i did use lumens

but how am i

you and areze say the spectral output and intensity is wrong
LFP said you are wrong i think he's right

"context between two threads"

both are about the using of hid and how to light a tank with them

" different aspects of thetechnology being discussed"
it is about hid (not standard Xenon) bulbs
do you know the different aspects?

i would like to see chart /graphs and info
about how the hid (not standard Xenon) bulbs are so wrong for the tank
charts and info need is spectral output , intensity, par ,kelvin rating, the wave length O and lumens per watt for the hid and a mh




plz tell me how me and hummermaniac88
wanting to use hids to light a tank is different then LFP
other then his rig is built and we are are not done


I (BeanAnimal) attempted (as did Luke) to explain why the automotive HID lamps may work out in his setup

how did you try to tell me it wold work when that is what i have said from the start


thanks to all that are on board with the hid lighting

thank you Luke to being the first to do this and help us that would like to do so too

to
BeanAnimal areze I'm done (with you) not the hid lighting

[BeanAnimal]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14081281#post14081281 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JACOXVIII
sorry but man but your a jerk Personal attacks don't bode well here my friend.

in the other thread i have been all for these lights and the way LFP has used them Nobody said anything to the contrary. There is no point to debate here.

your very first post over there that you posted in regards to hummermaniac88 wanting to use these hid bulbs is below

Originally posted by BeanAnimal
Your setup will work for a Fish Only tank, but will not suffice for a Reef Tank. The spectral output and intensity will not be correct.

or did you forget? CONTEXT CONTEXT CONTEXT! My remarks were aimed at hummermaniacs proposed use of the lights. Please, I beg you, stop taking remarks out of context. hummermaniacs did not propose "spotlight" style lighting with high intensity LED supplementation. My remarks in BOTH threads have been very clear, please keep them in context.

You are confusing "Coat Tails" with "Bandwagon", sir. The meaning was that you clearly didn't grasp the topic you were trying to argue and instead were simply recasting the informed remarks (out of context) that others made. Again, a problem with context.

As for the rest of your post, I am not going to bother. You are chasing your tail in circles trying to carry on a pointless fight. Please stop trying so hard to inflame people. I have been as kind as possible, but the continued lack of context to this discussion is becoming a distraction to those who are here to discuss Luke's project.

If you have not figured it out yet, Luke is my friend and I support his DIY efforts no matter what the outcome is. This particular project does not suit my personal aesthetic tastes, but it does suit his. Did you take a moment to notice that I took the time to help explain the methodology to those who had doubts about the efficiency? I am very interested in watching the long term results. Please, lets move forward.

[liveforphysics]

I can't be upset with you guys, because areze also lured me into lousing up my own thread with needless banter.

This is part of the reason I'm choosing to feature the things I build off-site in a respectful atmosphere.

I fully appreciate and will answer questions about wanting to understand theory of operation. These things contribute to learning and advancing the hobby.

I spent a full hour of my time yesterday responding to foolishness from areze. I often work 12-16hr days, and I only have a couple of hours of personal time in a day. I'm not going to spend it defending the existence of my project or my testing. Anyone who doesn't want to believe it's possible or believe Xenon is efficient, or believe it can produce photosynthetic spectra is welcome to believe that way. I have too many other projects that need my time to spend it in back and forth banter trying to convince anyone of anything.

If you don't like it, don't trust it, don't want it, don't want to see it, are convinced that only lots of 250-400w MH bulbs can light a reef, then simply stop viewing the thread please.


Bean- "Luke is my friend and I support his DIY efforts no matter what the outcome is."

You brought a big smile to my face. The feeling is mutual.

Whenever trying new things, it's a risk of an investment in time and money, and for things like this, the biggest risk is in the health of my corals. So far I'm observing the normal reactions to lighting that I saw with my previous lighting. If I begin to see my corals take a turn for the worse, I do have my previous lighting on hand to throw back over the tank and hopefully recover.

Things are looking healthy and promising so far, and I'm keeping my fingers crossed. :)

For everyone who had nice things to say, thank you, I appreciate your kindness.

Best Wishes,
-Luke

[liveforphysics]

Top down shot just for fun :)

http://img380.imageshack.us/img380/2271/gp1040476largexy5.jpg

[ReefEnabler]

wow that looks awesome. I see possibilities for supplemental lighting even for people who have MH lights.


I dont understand why you two are fighting, Bean and Jaco :)
I just read the thread for the first time and Jaco was merely stating the fact that there was a confusion about the bulb technology being discussed. No need to let the confusion carry on, seems everybody is on the same side here :)

Lets just support Luke in this awesome experiment and await the next installment with more PAR numbers :) oh and more pics would be sweet too :D

[ReefEnabler]

Luke I just read that Dana Riddle article yesterday and have been pondering the red issue too.

I want more data on the red subject :) It seems alot of people have had good results when adding the ATI procolor bulb to their T5 setups, which is a heavily red bulb. I wonder if in the experiment on red bleaching events if the red light was the only light or just a supplemental light?

"that corals exposed for more than 60 days to light composed of mostly the red portion of the spectrum resulted in corals that "

that makes me think the red lighting was the main lighting and not a supplemental light. so I wonder how harmful a small red peak in a bulb with other spectrums would be.

[Horace]

I do have to echo the concerns on replacing the HID bulbs and the cost associated. My buddy (who we put an HID kit in his car), had to replace bulbs almost yearly as they would burn out on his RSX. If you have to replace all those bulbs every year, your talking some MAJOR replacment cost.

I lOVE the idea, but economically, im just not sure its worth it. I think I would rather see a all LED unit instead, at least those will last.....

[Whalehead9]

How long has this project been running on your tank? I like the idea, and might want to use a few spots on some tanks, that want shimmer with t-5's. Can't wait for the Par readings. this application could also work very well for pico, nano, and a qt sps tank.

Keep up the good work!

[ReefEnabler]

Luke already said he calculated the bulb cost and for him its worth it. If you read the glassbox stuff its in there and this thread.


To re-lamp my previous setup required 12x T5 bulbs and 4x MH bulbs. I would normally spend about $500 yearly to re-lamp. To completely re-lamp my current setup I will spend around $200.

I'm glad somebody is out there experimenting all the crazy stuff that I wish I could try but haven't the engineering skills or the free time ;) Sounds like he doesn't have much free time either with all this going on.

[Horace]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14083932#post14083932 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ReefEnabler
Luke already said he calculated the bulb cost and for him its worth it. If you read the glassbox stuff its in there and this thread.




I'm glad somebody is out there experimenting all the crazy stuff that I wish I could try but haven't the engineering skills or the free time ;) Sounds like he doesn't have much free time either with all this going on.

If that is the case then thats awesome... I def think its a cool idea... I just remember those bulbs being alot more expensive than his seem to be. Perhaps hes getting them at a big discount to what my buddy was paying for his HIDs?? Heck from what I recall his kit for this RSX was ~$300 (ballast + bulbs), and the replacement bulbs were ~$90/ea.

[nattarbox]

Thanks for sharing your experiment, I was very pleased to read about it on Glass Box as well as here. It was really interesting to get some perspective on the HID lighting, as I have been curious about it since noticing some commercial options appearing on the market.

[hummermaniac88]

I don't understand why everyone is hating on a out of the box idea... I bet the same responses were thrown around went LEDs were first experimented...

[tarzan]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14080795#post14080795 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by liveforphysics
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2008/12/aafeature1

It makes me want to re-evaluate my bulb choices to exclude the purple bulbs that had a few heavy red lines... The more I learn about corals, the more I realize they do not want anything like full spectrum lighting. I'm glad most of the Xenon bulbs and all of the LEDs are mainly composed of strong blue spikes in useful photosynthetic wavelengths.

Best Wishes,
-Luke
First i need to say it's an interesting approach, quite a costly one (compared to T5 only setup), but if the electricity bill will be lower, the lifespan of lamps better and coral growth same or even better than with T5's, it's definitely a way to go (if in 2 years the investment difference is covered), but we'll have to wait and see how it will go first... I do not want to be skeptical, i would just like to encourage you to take some more precise spectral measurements of Xenons used. I don't know what their spectral color distribution is , i hope that it doesn't just have few spikes on right areas (if it emits light just in a narrow area of 10nm on blue and red part of scale). Sure hope to see some graphs.

Regarding the articles you posted I hope you don't plan to go "all blue" (as the articles suggests), blue is the wavelength corals gain most from, but hey, what about us? Don't we want them in our tanks just to be able to see part of nature in their actual colors? What is the point in having a yellow coral and watching it just under blue lights :) (I know you are not doing this, I'm just joking:P).

Just love your work, keep it coming :D!!!
For some nice graphs of chlorophyll's light absorption capability and PAR value theory here's a link to paper (http://gmao.gsfc.nasa.gov/research/oceanbiology/reprints/gregg&casey_JMS2008_preprint.pdf).

[liveforphysics]

I reached 200 hrs of burn-in time on the lamps, and I took new spectral data. This time I was able to gain the use of a very nice machine to use. You can see the output graphs on the most recent update.

http://glassbox-design.com/2009/part-25-lfps-xenon-and-led-reef-lighting-system/

Enjoy!
-Luke

[ReefEnabler]

wow.... the 12k and 25k bulbs have some of the most natural spectrums I've ever seen according to those spectral analysis graphs. bravo!

so when are you going into full production... taking preorders yet??? :lol:


your comments on why you upgraded to your current tank make me want to upgrade for the same reason (damn you). I thought a tall tank was the way to go, but wet armpits are no good!

[liveforphysics]

Those 12k and 25k blue bulbs sure do look like a delightful coral spectrum don't they :) Oddly, they are from different manufactures, yet very similar.

Before I could recommend anyone to try this sort of lighting, I need to make sure that my corals continue to look healthy for a longer period of time. I also feel a need to get some idea of the real lifespan of the bulbs. I know the manufacture states 3000-5000hrs, but I think nothing beats real world testing.

Thanks for the kind words!

-Luke

[Adrianvh]

is it possible to mention bulb brands and models?

[JustinReef]

I know someone who has been using HID lighting over his reef for about 6 months now and it looks great. I will get more details or see if he is a member here and will post.

Actually I know someone else on my local forum using them over a nano for the past 4 or 5 months too. It looks great as well. There was a lot of talk about this on my local forum.

I even bought a bunch of them for supplemental spots over my tank but have not gotten around to using them yet. My brother works for a car parts shop and gets them and the lamps at cost, so its something I am interested in for sure.

For me though I could never light a whole tank like this...looks way too unnatural. IMO they are better for supplemental light but just because of aesthetics.

[liveforphysics]

I think about 3/4 of all reefkeepers use HID lighting :) I assume you mean Xenon HID lamps right? Projected or reflected? If projected, did they find a more economical source for projection optics? I would be VERY happy if you could find a link to share with us. It would be very comforting to get to see how well they grow coral over a longer time period, and how the bulbs maintain output over time.


My snails must be ****ed! They've given up even searching the glass for algae, and seem to be mostly roaming the rocks only. I am certainly not missing needing to clean my glass every week!

The unlit glass disappears so well, I've actually bumped my nose into it a few times while watching the tank. I enjoy the animals floating in air illusion much more than the animals behind a well illuminated clear barrier appearance I used to have.

[Paul_PSU]

Luke,
Bravo! Your endeavors are always fascinating to follow (loved your tank thread). It is refreshing to see people like yourself that are in the community and continually doing so much to try to advance it. Keep up the great work.

Paul

[ReefEnabler]

Luke hope you don't mind me posting these comparisons (not sure how valid the comparisons are due to different intstruments but I assume a somewhat relative comparison is valid):

Spectral analysis and PAR values of a natural reef at various depths. It's from advanced aquarist, Hahn posted it over in the lighting thread:

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2005/8/aafeature_album/figure-4.gif

Now Luke's 25k xenon HID:

http://glassbox-design.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/hid25kb-lfp.gif

Looks alot like the natural curve at about 5m depth.

Anybody who has spent alot of time looking at spectral graphs for MH bulbs knows that its just about impossible to get that close to the overall lighting curve without supplementation schemes.

Most MH bulbs have an ackward spikey spectrum of some kind.

I'd say the XM10k comes *close* but the overall shape of the curve is different, and far spikier. Every single blue MH bulb I've looked at has a spike in blue without the gradual descent into red that happens in nature.

Bluer bulbs seem to have a blue spike and then the rest of the graph is pretty boring.

Anybody who wants to browse through MH bulb data should check out the new location for Sanjay's lighting info:
http://www.manhattanreefs.com/lighting

Browse by Color Temp. Check out XM10k and Radium 20k as examples....

[liveforphysics]

To save folks the trouble, I hosted a few of Sanjay's graphs of the bulbs I often see used, most of them I've used myself at some point. You can read the bulb type in the upper corner of each graph.

http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/425/xm20kwn8.jpg

http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/2173/xm10kgv7.jpg

http://img264.imageshack.us/img264/5766/radium20kfe3.jpg

http://img235.imageshack.us/img235/9448/giesmann20kme8.jpg

http://img70.imageshack.us/img70/9524/ab20ktc8.jpg

[liveforphysics]

Sanjay uses 400nm to 700nm for the color range on his graphs. So, I cropped my plots to just include the same range to make it easier to compare.

http://img110.imageshack.us/img110/2207/hid12k1lfpscaledzj2.jpg

http://img110.imageshack.us/img110/228/hid25kblfprescaledbp1.jpg


It's tough not to draw the conclusion that Xenon is able to duplicate natural reef lighting spectra much better than metal halide. This was totally unexpected.

Great observations Reef Enabler!

-Luke

[driftin]

Is there a way to correlate the two Y-axis units?

Interesting that there is a significant valley in the Xenon charts at ~450nm, where some of the MH's have their peak.

[liveforphysics]

Nope, Y-axis units are just relative to the rest of the graph.

Also, it would look pretty silly to relate Y-axis's between 35w bulbs and 250w-400w MH bulbs :)

Put the 400w MH in a reflector and put the 35w in a projector and set the light meter a few feet away and we could compare intensity :)

Best Wishes,
-Luke

[liveforphysics]

Paul-PSU Thank you much for your kindness. It means a lot to me.

[newreef8584]

Luke I can't stress this enough.. Keep it up! Regardless of the outcome it is the pioneering spirit that drives this and every other hobby/obsession further. Unfortunately I have been banned by the wife from anymore DIY'ng for a while. Some crazy stuff about paying the morgage and leases, who knows!lol

My only complaint is, I would like to see a series of FTS's of the different stages in the lighting cycle to get a better handle on the actual look from the in front of the tank perspective.

[A.T.T.R]

there we go
glad to see you actualy tested ( to many people claim to do somthing but really have no clue whats going on)

anychance that you got par readings off the bulbs aswell?


for you this may be a good option because of your goal. but its still much more expensive then using the commonly useed MH components

[tahiriqbal]

Please could you tell me if you are using any dimmer control unit to control these LED lights? I am also in the process of making my own dimmable LED which are rated at 72 watts per strip (5060SMD 4800 lumens per strip, 8000k), hoping to use 10 strips in total. Each strip is rated at 72 watts, quite powerful in pure white colour not cool white colour. I was also hoping to insert three 1.5 meter long RGB flexible strips too. I want all these strips to be connected to one transformer and I need to know which transformer have you been using or would recommend? I am looking for dimmable transformer and cant seems to find anywhere. Please would you help me to solve this issue? I am based in the UK but don't mind importing from the US.
I am also looking for an independent dimmer control unit which could run these led strips and could perform full lunar cycle. I would highly appreciate you kind help and guidance.

Thanks

[liveforphysics]

tahiriqbal- I use groups of these:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=360089330374&ssPageName=MERC_VI_RSCC_Pr12_PcY_BIN_Stores_IT&refitem=360091900851&itemcount=12&refwidgetloc=active_view_item&usedrule1=StoreCatToStoreCat&refwidgettype=cross_promot_widget&_trksid=p284.m184&_trkparms=algo%3DDR%26its%3DS%252BI%252BSS%26itu%3DISS%252BUCI%252BSI%26otn%3D12

[ReefEnabler]

how do you control the current?

do you need to use a microprocessor with pulse width modulation (similar to how a MOSFET transistor is controlled)?

[liveforphysics]

0-5v signal to range from 70mA to 700mA on that model.

They didn't seem to offer the model that I bought from the same seller about a year ago. It uses the same 0-5v signal to vary the power between 15mA to 1000mA.

[Harry_Fish]

Is there any way to widen the beam.

a little less spotlight efffect?

[mano1192]

A couple FTS shots would be great. How are your corals doing, do you see the same growth rate as with your previous light setup? Keep up your hard work, this is a great experiment!

[liveforphysics]

Too soon to know. They all look healthy and growing, but I'm not going to make any claims of growth or success after only a few weeks. Have I noticed growth? Yes, if you look carefully, you can often spot minor SPS growth on a daily basis, and I am still seeing this. It's much too soon to judge if it is better or worse that my previous growth.

I can tell you what isn't growing though :) Anything on my glass :) I put this setup up, then cleaned my glass. It's been a couple weeks now, and my glass still looks like the day I cleaned it :)

[dogstar74]

LFP,

I love to see this type of work and innovation.

I too would like to know the brand of the bulbs you are using. I've read this thread, and the attached webpage and find it very well documented and written.

Could you please attach a name to the bulbs that you have tested and also a possible source to purchase said bulbs. If you can't recommend a source, then google is sure to come up with my own sources.

[cward]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14136357#post14136357 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Paul_PSU
Luke,
Bravo! Your endeavors are always fascinating to follow (loved your tank thread). It is refreshing to see people like yourself that are in the community and continually doing so much to try to advance it. Keep up the great work.

Paul


I agree!!! It's nice to see people thinking outside the box, and then sharing the information with us. I'm looking forward to seeing your long term results.


Chris

[7808]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14069980#post14069980 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by areze
what do you get? a waste of money.

10 HID bulbs? or... 2 250w MH bulbs. Ill replace 2 bulbs thanks. and Ill put them on a sweet reflector for vertical penetration of the light for maximum efficiency.

and Ill use MH bulbs that have a spectrum that is specialized to precise wavelengths needed for photosynthesis and flourescence in corals.

the LEDs are nice, the automotive HID bulbs are a total waste unfortunatly. sorry.

*we actually had a very recent thread with another poster trying this automotive HID idea. HID is a more advanced technology and i think there on to somthing using it in reefkeeping

[EnderG60]

Luke, It looks from the pictures like you have the projector arranged in the middle pointing out. Seems like it would be better for your objective to place them on the perimeter and aim them in wouldnt it?

Also they do make 50w and 55w balasts for those you know. And they run on the same bulbs(most are rated for up to 60w) Just in case you want to be a real reefer and bump up the wattage :)

[liveforphysics]

Thank you for all the kindness!

EnderG60- I'm definately aware. I run modded ballasts in my racecar that switch between 20w and 55w.

The 55w versions just use a different current sense shunt. If you spend the time to pick away or disolve the expoxy potting, you can unsolder the shunt and attach leads to run outside the ballast case. Then you can make adjustable power ballasts. You can find guides to do this on various HID websites, and it's been working great on my racecar for a few years.

I was interested in trying to extend bulb life to be as long as possible (and didn't feel like modding a whole bunch of ballasts), so I stuck with 35w/bulb. If I ever desire more output, I could spend an hour with each ballast and bump out the wattage, but then I wouldn't have met my goal of 1/2 power consumption from my previous system :)

Best Wishes,
-Luke

BTW- You could also set them up to run on a program to ramp-up and ramp-down power to the bulbs, much like controlled output T5 systems.

Maybe I will do something like that, but at the moment I'm very contented with the performance, and don't have the free time.

[liveforphysics]

Thank you for all the kindness!

EnderG60- I'm definately aware. I run modded ballasts in my racecar that switch between 20w and 55w.

The 55w versions just use a different current sense shunt. If you spend the time to pick away or disolve the expoxy potting, you can unsolder the shunt and attach leads to run outside the ballast case. Then you can make adjustable power ballasts. You can find guides to do this on various HID websites, and it's been working great on my racecar for a few years.

I was interested in trying to extend bulb life to be as long as possible (and didn't feel like modding a whole bunch of ballasts), so I stuck with 35w/bulb. If I ever desire more output, I could spend an hour with each ballast and bump out the wattage, but then I wouldn't have met my goal of 1/2 power consumption from my previous system :)

Best Wishes,
-Luke

BTW- You could also set them up to run on a program to ramp-up and ramp-down power to the bulbs, much like controlled output T5 systems.

Maybe I will do something like that, but at the moment I'm very contented with the performance, and don't have the free time.

[JACOXVIII]

how about a small clam tank

[liveforphysics]

I think applications like a clam tank or any "look-down" type of tank would be ideally suited towards projection lighting. With the ability to aim and overlap the spotlights, you can reach extremely high levels of intensity for very high light demand animals.

You could also just over lap spots in an area of a tank that you want to use to keep your clams or other animals that want very high light levels.

By shifting the position the final aspherical lens sits from the reflector, you can adjust the spot size to be however large or small you think would best suit your application. I shifted mine in closer to the bulb to create a wider projection angle. If I were lighting a small clam tank, I would keep the narrow angle and mount the lights clear up on the ceiling to allow an open space over the tank for viewing.


Best Wishes,
-Luke

[token]

liveforphysics, I am loving this thread. I have all kinds of thoughts/ideas/questions bumping around in my head. I have never been really happy with standard aquarium lighting. If you lift it high enough to be practical, you light the room with it. If you hang it lower to avoid that, it's a constant problem around which one has to work (without considering the visual aesthetics of the stand/canopy combinations that result).

I hope that what you are working on pans out. If it does, many of us can say, "Goodbye, hanging (head-bumping) fixtures!"

[liveforphysics]

Yep!

I appreciate the kind words :)

My old lighting was on a pivot that allowed it to swing off to the side for working in the tank, but it always blocked one of the three sides, and it sucked to lose your light when you wanted to work.

I'm so happy with getting the lights way up high and out of the way. Free easy access to the entire tank bottom with no fuss or carefully sliding my arm through a little door and burning myself on bulbs and things.

Everyone that comes to see the tank instantly notes how different a tank appears when the glass isn't lit. It really fades away the appearence of the barrier between you and the animals, and makes them seem to be floating in space.

It's been about 3 weeks now since I cleaned the glass :) Still no signs of any algae growing on it :) Corals have great polyp extension, and colors are looking great. Hopefully it stays that way!

-Luke

[jasonh]

Luke,

Very cool idea. I had never thought about something like this. Unfortunately I can only see the pics on the articles since various image hosting domains are blocked here at work :(

Not sure how much you spent on each projector, but there are very cheap projectors available from some aftermarket companies for various cars (they are available for my Neon SRT-4 I know for fact). They are generally made for standard halogen bulbs though, so some modification would probably be required. but probably still cheaper and more readily available than wrecked BMWs :)

It was upsetting to see people instantly criticizing the work you've done. This is the great spirit of DIY - to come up with new ways to do things. Though I've sure the first person to put a MH lamp over a tank was heavily criticized too, just like the initial LED people :)

Keep up the great work, you have some really good ideas. I used your venturi design on my skimmer (little crappy-fied though) and it works great :)

[Young Frankenstein]

Nice project Luke...thanks for sharing the info :)
I am thinking of making something similar but I would like to see if any of the new plasma bulbs are out in the market already, from the last read I did on plasma they started making them in Germany.

[Young Frankenstein]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14151122#post14151122 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by 7808
HID is a more advanced technology and i think there on to somthing using it in reefkeeping High Intensity Discharge bulbs is nothing new and cheaper than MH :)

[A.T.T.R]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14172110#post14172110 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Young Frankenstein
High Intensity Discharge bulbs is nothing new and cheaper than MH :)
mh is an hid

[magnoliarichj]

and hid is MH

[liveforphysics]

These are the reasons I like to call it Xenon HID, or Xenon gas discharge to clear up any confusion with the other type of Xenon HID, which is Xenon arc (often called short-arc).

To make a quick reference, we could call it XGD lighting. It's easy to use and it clears up any confusion with other types of lighting.

[Young Frankenstein]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14172677#post14172677 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by A.T.T.R
mh is an hid HID bulbs are NOT MH bulbs :)

[MeuserReef]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14177891#post14177891 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Young Frankenstein
HID bulbs are NOT MH bulbs :)

YF.... <a href=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal_halide>READ THIS</a>... especially the first line.

[jasonh]

MH bulbs are HID so Meuser is right. But HID is not necessarily MH. So YF is right the way he stated it...but I think the way he meant it is incorrect.

[liveforphysics]

It's silly to get caught up in nomenclature nonsense :)

Lets just call it XGD (Xenon Gas Discharge).

XGD lamps, XGD lighting, XGD projection. It should help remove confusion in discussions.

[JACOXVIII]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14180609#post14180609 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by liveforphysics
It's silly to get caught up in nomenclature nonsense :)

Lets just call it XGD (Xenon Gas Discharge).

XGD lamps, XGD lighting, XGD projection. It should help remove confusion in discussions.

works for me :)

[OnlyCrimson]

Certainly looks interesting. I'm guessing it is only good for spotlighting? or can the beams mix to give the light of a real reef? No offense, but the lighting looks very blotchy and unreal.

[Mojo Jojo]

Wow ok so besides the fuzz around the tread. I like the idea this guy has. It is unique and if it works for him why change it.

[jjk_reef00]

I would like to see pics of the tank growth. Progress with documented growth rate.

[liveforphysics]

Onlycrimson- The main idea was to just light the areas that have animals that I want to light. Keep in mind that I have an area that is likely around 6 times the area to light of your tank. 3-4 spots could easy fully cover the bottom of a tank your size. I built 14 spotlights for this project, and ended up only using 9 of them, because 9 of them was enough to cover all the areas I have photosynthetic animals in my reef.



As far as growth shots go, it's only been a few weeks guys :P. I wish I could show some amazing growth in a couple weeks, but it looks pretty much the same. Maybe new branch budding on a coral here and there, and the tips are maybe a 1/4" longer on some corals. It's not a miricle coral growth accelerator. It's just lights. It does seem to be keeping them healthy though, and I love the look of unlit glass, as well as no algae growth on the glass and cutting power consumption in half.

In due time I will be able to show some growth progress pictures, as well as give you guys an idea of the number of hours the bulbs are able to run before output decreases, or spectrum shifts or whatever happens to them to lead to needing bulb replacement.

Until we make time machines, myself and everyone else interested will just have to wait and see what happens. Maybe tomorrow I will have a massive bleaching event, maybe they will slowly all die off, or maybe they will continue looking healthy and growing along like they are now. I don't have a way to rush the longterm outcome results of this project. I can only tell you that I'm pleased with what I'm seeing in the short term.

Best Wishes,
-Luke

[EnderG60]

ok thats all fine and dandy, now how about getting back to that skimmer build:D

[Whalehead9]

So If I am interested in these lights, I need to find a car dealership, or junkyard that will have used fixtures. once that is done I get the bulbs where? As a DIY, this is an amazing build, but without sources to replicate this stuff it is just a one of a kind build. I have a 40 gallon breeder flat, that I will be doing sps, in, and I want to use a few t-5,s mixed in with either 70 mh, or XGD. I work six to seven days a week, so time wandering around town or the vastness of the internet does me little good. So here are my questions.

1. How did you get the parts that you needed.
2. Where is a good reference to look up info on the particular brand(s) of the items that you got.
3. How long do you figure that these bulbs last
4. How easy is it to get these parts? In other words do I need to have backups ready to go because it will take a week to get replacements sent to me


I will have more question but I need more coffee first.

[liveforphysics]

Some dealers want prices in the thousand dollar range for the projectors. I would definitely stick with a place that dismantles used OEM headlights for the purpose of extracting the projectors.

I used these guys for the projectors, and service was good. I used OEM projectors made by valeo. I did have to modify each projector though to make it better suited towards my needs. Your needs may be different. They don't sell any bulbs that would work for coral.

http://store.theretrofitsource.com/index.php

The bulbs have a claimed life of 3,000-5,000 hours. I never trust these things at all, and I'm kinda thinking that only time will tell.

As far as getting bulbs and bulb/ballast kits, I have a wholesaler who is working with me. We tried out some kits ranging between the $40 area up to the $220 area. The $40 kits had less than 50% ballast efficiency, buzzed softly, occasionally lost the arc, and felt like they were going to melt down after a few minutes. The $220 kit did absolutely nothing better than one of the kits that cost $105/kit, and efficiency was very high and it passed all the thermal and over voltage and shorting protection tests I tried. I was pretty impressed. The 3 models of bulb I found best suited to coral come from two different manufactures, neither of which I know the names of. The ballasts I like also list no manufacture info, but leave an area for some companies sticker to go. I'm thinking they are likely resold by multiple companies who re-label the ballast, bump the price, and sell it as there own product. My contact is able to source the ballasts and bulbs direct from the manufacture.

I talked to him about expanding his market from just cars to including reef keepers. He seems to think I'm the only person in the world who would ever spend the time to try to keep a reef though... lol I'm trying to convince him that there could be some demand, but it's tough to know. I ended up buying 10 more ballasts with 10 more of the special 25k blue bulbs from him though, so I could have some items available to help someone else who is interested in trying it out. If there is enough interest, I might buy a pallet of bulbs and kits at very low prices, and get them out to interested folks at roughly my cost. I REALLY don't want to get caught up in hassles of dealing with customers and things, but I wouldn't mind mailing out a package once in a while. I'm not trying to make profits (I have a job for that), it would just be a way to help get parts to people who want to try it out. I would actually be down for trading unique SPS frags for XGD parts/equipment :)

I think I should get more hours on my setup before I supply any parts though. So far the bulb lifespan is unknown, and the technology is largely unproven for this application. My setup is basically just a prototype, and anyone who wants to try it this soon would be like a product "beta tester".

Anyways... I'm tired. I'm rambling. I'm going to go take a nap before getting back to work on some new projects.

Best Wishes,
-Luke

[jasonh]

I had a thought, and I'm curious if it would work... I'm sure that car parts wouldn't work, but if we could source a suitable lens and design a proper reflector, this could probably be done with standard MH lighting, could it not?

That would probably help get the "unlit glass" effect while enabling you to raise the MH fixtures up and out of the way. Think it's possible Luke?

[tahiriqbal]

Why not use the same headlights reflector and take out rest of the unwanted bulbs from the housing and see how it looks. The only problem is that you may end up with very ugly lighting unit lol.

[tufacody]

Just finished this thread. I highly applaud you for attempting a new and creative means of lighting. I'd love to be involved in a project like this. Some people on this thread simply don't understand that it doesn't have to be "better" or "as good" as other commercially available systems to be a success. Technology is an evolution. Think of all the things this guy learned on the way to building this one, which hopefully will be applied to later attempts. This guy isn't stealing technology, he's truly incorporating it into his own idea. VERY few of us have the skills and determination to do stuff like this. I applaud you. A+.

[tahiriqbal]

LFP, your work is excellent and most importantly it meets your needs. If we didn't try new things then we never know. Necessity is the mother of invention and your lighting meet your needs and that is what we are trying to achieve here.
I have shown your work on the UK's reef forums and they all loved it. I, myself looking to do something similar and looking to purchase BMW xenon lights in very near future.

Question LFP, can I use Mercedes xenon lights as we have Mercedes reclamation yard not too far from us?

Once again great work.

[Chibils]

As always Luke, spectacular. :)

[truebeliever71]

Luke,

Any updates on your project? How are the corals doing? Good growth? I'm considering going this route on my tank.

[Lucky Strike]

lfp - having the ability to light corals to their needs and having the ability of having extremely high light corals along side a low to no light coral has more than caught my attention. My condolences go out to you and your family. Hope to hear / see more in the future. your work is top notch.. i was esp fond of your F20c powered project car! that was pretty cool.

[DeathWish302]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14073608#post14073608 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by liveforphysics
Seawandrr-

Thank you.

In a sea of closed minds, its great to have someone with their head above water.

Luke,

Just logging on to this thread from a DIY hiatus.... One engineer to another applauds your efforts.

Let those that can't think out of the box drowned.

[liveforphysics]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14190489#post14190489 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jasonh
I had a thought, and I'm curious if it would work... I'm sure that car parts wouldn't work, but if we could source a suitable lens and design a proper reflector, this could probably be done with standard MH lighting, could it not?

That would probably help get the "unlit glass" effect while enabling you to raise the MH fixtures up and out of the way. Think it's possible Luke?

To make the ability to project light through a lens, it comes down to a ratio of the lens entrance surface to the light emission surface. In these bulbs, the light emission surface could be modeled as a sphere roughly 2-3mm across. The lens is 75mm across. Area is what matters here, so we are looking the squares of these values. If you were to keep the same surface ratios, you could project just as well from a normal sized aquarium metal halide bulb, but I would imagine the 3ft aspherical lens could cost in the 10s of thousands, but it should perform fine if you can duplicate the ratios.

[liveforphysics]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14674271#post14674271 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by truebeliever71
Luke,

Any updates on your project? How are the corals doing? Good growth? I'm considering going this route on my tank.


It's been 3 months now, and I did have two coral frags die. They both died soon after the lighting change. One was a blue/pink milipora frag, and one was a red montipora digi frag. Maybe I hit them with too much light, maybe not enough, maybe they just had algae monocultures, maybe my Asfur angel ate them. Who knows, but I did loose 2 frags. All the other corals are showing rapid growth, and looking great. I'm pleased with the coral health and growth, and I'm ecstatic about being able to go at least a month between cleaning the glass. My power bill also dropped :), and I never have to mess with moving my lights or burning my arm on them while I harass/frag/mount corals in the tank.

[liveforphysics]

chibilis, Lucky Strike, Deathwish, and all the others who shared their support and respect- Thank you all for your kind words! Good luck and best wishes to you. -Luke

For folks who enjoy DIY projects that aren't reef related, you may enjoy seeing something I threw together a month ago:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1613331

Nothing fancy or sciencey, and quite simple to build, but it serves its function and delivers me some needed smiles in the process.

[zachtos]

If your frags turned white w/in a day or two after the light change, then I would say light shock. I experienced that when I put my LEDs too close to my frags in the frag tank. It's so directional!

It's tough doing these lighting projects too, we have so many variables. Your flow is great, so I could question your water chemistry/stability in affecting any deaths or color loss. SPS are so picky that these projects are hard to do.

I forget if you ever meaured the outputs of these lights in the tank w/a PAR meter? I bought mine from apogee, best toy ever.

Did a guy from china PM you asking for advice on LED design today?

[liveforphysics]

It took about 2-3 weeks for the 2 frags that died to die. Definitely a STN event, and I'm just assuming it was the light change that triggered it. Since then, all the other corals have been great, and healthy. Go figure I guess.

Yes, I got PAR readings about 3 months ago. Peaks in the 600s where multiple spots overlap, and holding 150-200 through the areas that don't overlap. With LED's alone, it's a sad 20-30PAR. :( This is from not using projection optics on the LEDs, but running them at projection optic distances. I also chose some non-optimized budget reflectors for the LEDs. I'm confident with proper optic selection I could at least double the intensity delivered by LEDs alone, but for now, I'm very happy, the corals are happy, and I need to focus efforts in other places.

Best Wishes,
-Luke

PS: No PMs from anyone in China asking about LED design.

[zachtos]

wow, peaks in the 600 PAR zone is great. I get 500-300 in my SPS keeping zones (6"-18" depth) w/ my icecap driven T5's. I was very dissapointed in my Luxeon array (200-300 PAR). I used the old luxeon 3's w/ 45 degree tri - optics I think. The new rebels w/ tri stars and optics would be crazy strong, but super expensive. I've seen the PAR readings in person on the rebel driven PFO solaris 2 and they are the same as MH/T5, but they would be better w/ high binned LED's. The China guy is fishing us LED experts out for free design info I think.

I am happy w/ my lighting, and now my flow thanks to you... If only I could find some new water quality improvement projects (aside from my sulfur reactor, ozone reactor, remote sand bed, refugium, skimmer, phosphate / carbon reactor and soon to be algae turf scrubber)... Make a new water quality improvement project for us, yes.

[liveforphysics]

I did just get a PM from him. He asked for my sources for the parts, and I gave them the info, which is all listed in this thread.

For water quality, I just use refugiums. I have a 90gal and a 45gal fuge that I use with HPS lamps to grow Chaeto. Nothing more. I built my DIY cone skimmer with carbon fiber and titanium and ceramic ball bearings and a brushless 3-phase variable speed pump etc etc, but I only used it long enough to prove to myself it works, then put it away. 1-2 water changes a year, macro algae growth, very strong water flow, and 2-part solution by the bucket is all my tank seems to need keep the corals happy and growing.

[zachtos]

Maybe I should try lighting my 75G refugium and 50G refugium w/ more then 100 PAR? Or maybe I just have a very high fish load for 500G of water.

[liveforphysics]

I tried a variety of bulbs for growing algae, and found the 70w HPS lamp enclosures are fantastic. Bulb cost is around $8, and the fixture with reflector and ballast in a weather proof housing is around $40-60. HPS (high pressure sodium) can do 130lumens/watt, and is a very high intensity source that reflects with higher efficiency than florescent. The downside is the lack of blue spectrum, yet at least chaetomorpha macro algae grows fantastic under HPS.

[zachtos]

I had great results a while back when I grew macro algae under only Blue and Red LED's (my avatar). The light is kinda pink, and the macro looks brown under that odd color. I got the idea from NASA when I saw them growing tomato plants in space using red/blue LEDs. It is more energy efficient for plants, as they reflect the green light off (white wastes that portion on plants). It's a fun project if you're interested. I hear inventive college kids do that in their dorm closets now for other plants. =)