Overstocking to lessen aggression?

[Snausy]

I asked this in a different thread but I had to start another because I'm really starting to think about this issue and want to do something about it.

I see big awesome tanks filled with triggers, angels etc and they seem to work together without killing each other. This is what I want.

Meanwhile my tank with the dogface and the Harlequin tusk is reduced to just them with three little yellow-tail blue damsels because everytime I try to add a niger trigger, they end up chasing the HT around to the point of him never coming out and hiding on his side in the back corner all day. The niger and the dogface would go at it but in that case neither would back down and it would eventually end without too much trouble.

When I finally get my new 330 up I want to add some fish...I want a crosshatch, I want a few angels. I want more fish and I'm sure you understand...but I'm wondering how I can do that if I can't seem to add the right fish in my 100 to be nice to my dogface and HT.

What is the deal with stocking and aggression control. I've kept a few african cichlid tanks and you have to overstock them to keep the aggression down because there are just so many fish to worry about, no one fish gets picked on too much. Is this the same with big aggressive SW fishtanks? Is it a problem if there are only a couple fish in the tank to single out?

Is my problem the Harlequin tusk? Is he just too big a wimp for what I want to do?

Help me understand what I need to do in order to get some triggers, angels and others in my tank without it turning into "FIGHTCLUB" and making me have to take fish out again. I really like my two fish and would like to keep them. Do I need to find "second teir" aggressive fish that are "nice" for their species? I thought I was doing this when I put in the niger. Heck I'd be happy if I could just add a crosshatch, a tang or two and an angel. I just had to take out the bowtie damsel because he got so big that he started chasing the HT around.

I would really like to have more even in my 100g but after failed attempts with the nigers I'm very hesitant to try anything expensive without more insight and understanding.

Thanks for any help.

[DamnPepShrimp]

The theory behind overstocking is you pack so many fish into a little tank that no fish has a territory to defend. I think when you get to that point, it's a little cruel and doesn't even look appealing IMO. I understand you wanting more fish, I'm sure we all do. How big is your HT? How big was the Niger? I'd add crosshatch's when you upgrade. What angels are you looking for? Sounds like your HT is a whimp, which is ok, you just have to find the right tankmates for him. Every fish is different, just because one Niger trigger won't work, doesn't mean they all won't work. I'd look into a small juvi angel or tang as a third fish in the 100g then when you upgrade you could add a pair of crosshatch triggers and another couple angels and tangs. What are you looking for stocklust wise? I defintely don't think over crowding will work long term. Your better off choosing your tankmates careful, stocking in the right agression and size order.

[karaim]

Overstocking is not a good idea. Your fish will still fight and be stressed out and your water quality will decrease.

You should try adding an HT that's bigger in size than your current inhabitants. You should also try rearranging the rocks.

[LisaD]

+1 on DPS's post.

I think Niger triggers are deceptive, that many, when they get big, turn very territorial and aggressive. they are so mellow and timid when small, that a lot of us think they'll be fine.

Instead of overcrowding to reduce aggression, I think it's important to select fish that will get along long term. After my experiences with "mellow" triggers, my tanks are now triggerless. If I want a community tank with triggers, I'll get a blue throat (don't have the tank for a crosshatch).

Dogface puffer and HT are very mellow, non-aggressive fish, for the most part. Both my HT and dogface got harassed by a pink tail trigger (which went back to the LFS) AND the porc puffer that replaced it. I think more fish would have just aggravated this dynamic.

Triggers are really cool fish, but if I keep them, it won't be with the type of fish I have now. I'd set up a separate tank.

You might be able to keep a trigger and aggressive angel in your tank, but the HT and puffer may have to go. I think you could keep a mellower angel and tang in the tank. maybe a blue throat trigger, but I'd scrap the idea of crowding to manage aggression. JMO. :)

[agreeive?fish]

also add more than one fish at a time to the tank as that will spread out the agression from the old tank mates towards the new tank mates...

[LisaD]

there is an art to adding new fish. the good thing for snausy is that the less aggressive fish are already in the tank.

also, this in only a 100 gallon tank, right? IMO you don't have room for more than a couple more good sized fish.

EDIT: sorry, just realized you said you are upgrading soon.

[Snausy]

Thanks for confirming basically what I already thought I knew guys. :D

I am absolutely aware that overcrowding isn't good to do and unfair to the fish adding stress as well as affecting water quality etc etc. I just wondered how it affected aggression. I see tanks like the ones in that crosshatch trigger thread with all the triggers and angels and tangs and think "holy cow, that's so much more than my tank". It looks awesome with all that color but it also look overstocked to me so I had to wonder.

1. Can you guys confirm that crosshatch triggers are "nice" or are they like any other triggers and a wildcard? I'm thinking triggers just won't work with my HT at all. I think my dogface can handle/ignore anything but the HT while beautiful and 7" is really not very aggressive. I love him anyway though...he's awesome. Giving up the idea of triggers is hard, I really like their personality.

DPS, I tried three different Nigers and they all ended up the same...great for a few months then eventually getting too aggressive.

3. Regarding angels- If you added an angel and a tang to the tank, which ones are the best mix of beauty/temperment? I love the emperor but hear he can be a bit dominant and I'm thinking queen is out of the question. I don't know much else about various angels. Maybe I should get some dwarfs? What if I got a coral beauty and a flame angel and then added a nice tang of somesort? Thoughts?

3. Tangs- If you guys can suggest which tangs I should be looking at knowing that my current fish are not very aggressive I would really appreciate it. I'm looking for beautiful fish that can get along with tankmates...maybe eat some algae.

The plan is I'll get some "small" juvy fish and let them grow a few months then move them all into the new 96" x "30 x "30 tank I got last month. I don't have a stand for it yet and I'm still working out the details of all the plumbing still.

I appreciate your input, it's nice to know that having just the three or four fish in the 100(my plan) wasn't totally wrong. It's just very key to pick the RIGHT fish to put in there...and that's why I'm here talking to you. :)

[Snapper66]

Well I will have to go againist the Grain on this one,I have Five Groupers in a 135 Gallon and this Grouper Farm has proven a Success.Each Grouper has staked out a Piece of Rock I have alot of Live Rock in it alot of places to Hide.This works the King Grouper the Saddle Back is the Dominant Grouper.The Smaller Groupers know he is the Alpha and the are not able to set up large Territorys like they would in a smaller populations.The Saddle Back Grouper is Fierce Looking with the Teeth but never shows violent Agression.In Time I known that some of this Groupers will out Grow this Tank and Then I will Trade them in.I known some people Dont like that Idea but that is okay.I have learned that someone will always Buy that Fish.Every Grouper that I ever Traded in always got a New Home.True this many Groupers put alot of waste on the Tank.It is nothing that Good Weekly Water Changes and Filters and a Good Protein Skimmer Cant Take care of.:smokin: .I realize that this May not work with other Fish and it Might but it has With my Grouper Farm. Best Wishes on your Success Friend:)

[DamnPepShrimp]

Look into bluethroat or sagrassum triggers. I've never owned a xhatch, but they seem to be mild mannered. As far as angels go, dwarfs would be nice. Others like regal or chatedonplus (spelling right?) the bluespots, personifer (actually meredithi) scribbled etc. For tangs, maybe chocolate mimic, orange shoulder, kole, there's a few choices out there. I'm just throwing ideas out there.

[Snausy]

What about butterflies?

http://www.liveaquaria.com/diversden/ItemDisplay.cfm?c=2733+3&ddid=54121

blue girdled

http://www.liveaquaria.com/diversden/ItemDisplay.cfm?c=2733+3&ddid=53784

blue face

http://www.liveaquaria.com/diversden/ItemDisplay.cfm?c=2733+3&ddid=53925

blue-throat trigger. You really think this would be ok?

http://www.liveaquaria.com/diversden/ItemDisplay.cfm?c=2733+3&ddid=54152

Anyway, I'd try any of these.

[DamnPepShrimp]

Don't know much on butterflies, but I like the raccoon, they are hardy as well. Not really aggressive. The majestic is a nice smaller angel (still larger species) but isn't as aggressive. They can be the dominant fish in some tanks, but nothing like the typical emperor or queen.

[Snausy]

What's the consensus on the blue-throat? Hate to say it but THAT is the fish I want out of all of them. I just can't forget about triggers.

[LisaD]

very mellow, similar to your HT. they can be bullied, so you can't keep them with super-aggressives.

I think I'd leave off a butterfly. I don't have a lot of experience with them, but I don't think of them with aggressive/fast swimming/competitive eating fish. I may be wrong...

How about this list:

-HT
-puffer
-angel - majestic, blueface or a nice Chaetodontoplus (I love my blue spot) - you could also add a dwarf angel
-blue throat trigger
-mimic tang - my favorite - not too aggressive, assertive enough, nice fins, great looking as juv and adult

[Snausy]

I like that list Lisa.

my fiance is going to kill me but I think I should order that blue-throat while DD has it. I wonder about the zero degree temperature though...I'd hate to see it get too cold in transit.

Maybe I should call and have them double box it and double heating pack it?

[LisaD]

they really know how to pack and ship. the main risk will be if it gets held up due to weather. I think they will be able to get it to you okay. they will hold a shipment, I think, if the weather is too risky. I've recently ordered from them, everything has been good. I have an order coming Tuesday. :)

if you are concerned, you can always wait, since bluethroats aren't uncommonly available.

[Snausy]

lol yeah wait...sure! haha I just ordered that blue-throat. It looks like a really nice one to me...and just about a perfect size for the HT and puffer...not too big.

Now I have to tell my fiance about it...I think I'll start cooking dinner before she gets home. lol

[LisaD]

waiting... I don't do that so well either. I'll be scrambling tomorrow to get a tank set up for my peacock mantis shrimp. :) I also ordered a baby Diana's hogfish and a royal gramma just to fill up the box. My husband will NOT be understanding, I'll just have to hope he doesn't notice. He usually doesn't, until my kids rat me out.

[Snausy]

OH that's not a bad idea...just don't say anything at all. Wonder how long before she notices a new fish swimming around.

Bah not long I think, and then I get in trouble for trying to get it by her. lol better come clean...then do the dishes. :lol:

[karaim]

What about a Hippo Tang? It's peaceful but can stand up for itself if necessary. It's also bright, fast and smart.

[danorth]

Not all of one kind of fish is an instant headache. I've been switching out fish for a couple of years until I had a colorful set that got along. See my sig for the list.

[flameangel88]

Snausy:

I'll address some of your questions with my personal experience

1) Blue throats are great because you can find pairs in the 3-3.5" range. My personal pref is Crosshatch and I've 2 females and both don't bother any of the other fish except each other so they are in different tanks. When I upgrade I'll see if they get along this summer. You need strong flow, my Xhatch swims right in front of the Koralia Magnum 8 most of the time.

2) Angels--if you want a Emperor I suggest that should be the last fish in. I'd mine from juv and it only gets more aggressive. I think a tank full of Flame angels ( :) ), Potters and Lemonpeels are fun to watch.

3) Tangs (I've a PBT)--should be last one in also otherwise any new addition will get cut the first 3-4 days but if they can get through the first week they will be fine.

The more pictures I see on wrasses the more I want them. After you get your 330g up you'll have so much more options.

[LisaD]

I wish I had a 330. I have no wrasses, lionfish or triggers and my tank is full. :( and I like all the fish I have.

[anbosu]

The one thing that is saving me from having about 5 more tanks is the fact that we don't really have room for more than two in our current condo. Once I move to a house it could get ugly, quickly, lol.

[Snausy]

I had five tanks at one time about ten years ago...but they were all FW and african cichlid tanks.

Once I got my SW tank going I made a deal with my gf at the time that the SW tank would bit IT...the only one...and I've stuck to that rule.

I've decided to add this blue-throat and then I'm going to add a few dwarf angels. They will be too small to cause any trouble and add some nice color to the tank.

You really got me thinking about getting a female for the blue-throat. Do you have to get established pairs or does it work if I just add a same-sized female later? The crosshatch triggers are VERY beautiful but to be honest I'm just not in a place where I can add 800 dollars worth of fish in an "experiment" to see if they will be nice. 60-80 bucks for a very nice looking blue-throat is about all I'm willing to do on the trigger front atm.

Then I think I'll be adding a blue-hippo tang at the end. I like the PBTs but my fiance and the kids like the look of the blue-hippo more.

Hope this works out...we have "glare ice" here in Iowa atm, my driveway is like a skating rink. Not just slippery, ridiculously slippery. The sun melts the top 1/10 of the ice and it's like a zamboni has gone out and perfected it. Went out to get the mail today and ended up on my butt. I HOPE the FedEx guy can get here tomorrow!!! I've already lost one beautiful dogface because he got stuck in Denver overnight during a storm. Don't want that happening again. Thank goodness it's DD. I should probably call the FedEx place and have them hold the box there and go pick it up in the morning.

[flameangel88]

DD is very good with shipping in cold weather. It was 30s during the day and 20s at not and they inserted 6 heat packs and huge bag of water. It was an expensive order (in my eyes) and was worrying overnight because of the cold weather but the fish acclimated very well and eating the next day.

Back to the subject--
I got a M and a F (both were less than 3.5") from the lfs a year ago and added in the DT without any problem or aggression but took them almost a week before coming out of the rocks. After that they didn't hide much anymore. That was the best $80 I spent for a pair besides $120 for 2 female Watanabe (a year later one of the female is turning into a male :) ).

You'll enjoy the Blue Throats for years to come if you don't overfeed them.

[Snausy]

Now I have to find a female bluethroat... *sigh* this hobby kills me. :D

[flameangel88]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14084697#post14084697 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Snausy
Now I have to find a female bluethroat... *sigh* this hobby kills me. :D

'shoot' I hope it wasn't because of me. :lol:

[DamnPepShrimp]

flameangel88, where are you getting all these good deals from? Your not too far from me, is there a LFS that is simply amazing that I don't know about? :) Especially with the fish selection you have!

snausy, I saw that bluethroat on DD, it looked gorgeous! Post up picks when you get him! I am going to be looking for a pair soon for my 210g. Goodluck with him, and finding a female.

[flameangel88]

I get them from Red Sand Aq which is less than 10 minutes from me and I wait for the sale.

edit: someone posted a short video back in Oct of their 700g L shape DT on youtube. Since that video the tank is loaded with corals. I see a lot of people stopping by to buy frags but unfortunately I can't have any with my 4 hungry butterflies.

[DamnPepShrimp]

That is where you get most of your fish? All the rare fish you have? When is their next sale? I am pretty far away from there, about 2 hours.

[flameangel88]

No, most of the rare stuff are online. Since they're so close I stop by at least once a week. I don't think they have a fix sale schedule just whenever they get a huge order in. Ever since my recent battle with the parasite on the Griffis I've kinda taken a back seat on fish I can't see and stopping by the lfs more. I saw 2 false Personifers, Scribbled angels a few CBB in earlier tonight. I'll be picking up a 3" Flagfin from them later this week.

Someone is supposely working on a website for them and hopefully one will be up soon.

[Snausy]

Nobody really addressed the issue of if I can just add a female the same size and assume that they will become a "pair". Is it true?

I can't wait for tomorrow! Delivered before noon they say...excited as all get-out.

[flameangel88]

At 3-4" I think they are too young to form pairs. Unless you buy them as pairs otherwise it's hard to say yes but you stand a good chance.

If it doesn't work out I'll help you out...








just ship one, any one of them to me. :lol:

[DamnPepShrimp]

Hmmm... and their prices are really good? Especially with sales? When is their next sale, could you let me know? Maybe I will take a trip up there.

Snausy, I don't think you will have a problem pairing them up. Just be careful becuase there might be some aggression in the begining, but in the long run, they should be fine. I'm definietely getting a pair for my 210g, crosshatches are just too pricey, and too big for my tank.

[flameangel88]

Prices are generally not bad and pretty good if you factor in shipping cost when buying online on small orders. They don't post sale signs just when I see huge order in I noticed I can get good deals. I'll let you know next time when I see large supply in.

Snausy: remember to post pictures. :)

[Snausy]

Ok, the blue-throat pics will be later but I hope the HT and him get along.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v329/Snausages/NEW%20FISH%20PICS/P1020933.jpg

I'm not too worried about the dogface. He can handle himself.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v329/Snausages/P1010923-Copy-Copy.jpg

Looking at this pic you can understand why I want more fish. Sometimes I look over and it's like nobody is home.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v329/Snausages/NEW%20FISH%20PICS/P1020931.jpg

I'm replacing those powerheads on either side with a closed-loop soon. I usually have the backing showing the black side but the kids wanted to see what blue looked like and I'm too lazy to change it back. :)

btw, Check out that funky little plant on the right/middle that just popped up a couple weeks ago. LR has been in there for two years with no additions...nothing in sump. All of a sudden a plant starts growing...weird. It has big leaves...not algae that I'm aware of.

I'll post more pics after I take them of the blue-throat, that plant close-up so someone can ID it and the fish together hopefully getting along.

[flameangel88]

I see, very nice and all you need is few more fish to color it up.

[Snausy]

Well the blue-throat came today with no issues...water wasn't too cold, packed well.

After a drip into bucket acclimation I netted him and put him in. I don't have a QT set up or bio for it anyway so I just went ahead and added him to the DT. I know some people will cringe but I really think that divers-den is a step above and I'm not expecting any issues. The two fish in the tank are very hardy and have been through ich before...even if it shows up I'm not worried.

Anyway, he's in and looks great...was very boisterous...trying to get out of the bag. Looks very healthy.

Like we expected, he immediately swam between a few rocks and put up the trigger....been there ever since without moving. Only have the blue-plus lights on so it's not bright.

I won't be surprised if he stays in the rocks for a couple days until he gets hungry. Then the raw shrimp will be too much to deny any longer!

Happy here...I'll get some pics up when he starts swimming around.

[DamnPepShrimp]

flameangel88, thanks, I'd appreciate it.

Snausy, ok its time for pics! Its better to take pics when he's not swimming around so you can capture the picture better :) I saw the pic on the one you got on DD before you bought it, it looked gorgeous, one of the best bluethroats I've ever seen.

[Snausy]

Well I had the low light blue T5s on only today so it wasn't like I was able to check out his colors too much but he had awesome yellow on his fins/tail. He went deep underneath a rock with a cave in it and that was it...could only see him with a flashlight.

maybe tomorrow. :)