Test results are in!

[DamnPepShrimp]

Ok, well I use API test kits, and you never know how accurate they are, especially with matching up colors, your never going to get an exact reading.

Ammonia was 0 or close to it
Nitrite was 0 or close to it
Nitrate was thru the roof! Probably 80 or higher, it was pretty red

I've noticed my fish not looking so good lately though. They are losing color and some have a film over there eyes. I think I am going to do the move tomorrow. I have about 60g of new water in the tank, I can add about 100g from the 90g. I have a 30b I can setup as a QT tank. The passer and purple tang will go in the 90g back to my brothers house since the tank and fish are his. My eel will obviously not fit into the 30b, so I guess I can just add him to the 210g? He is VERY hardy. The wrasse (7") and the niger (3") will have to make due in the 30b I guess and get QT. SO I guess I will add all the 90g water over (minus the bottom 2" of yuck) and I should be ok adding the eel over right? I can hook up a cheap skimmer to the 30b QT and I have a glass lid for it so I can keep the wrasse in. I feel bad for cramping such a big fish in a little tank, but its all I have. Or do you think my fish problems will go away if I just put them into the 210g? Any input is greatly appreciated, I need to do something asap, the 90g isn't safe and it has to go since it isn't mine, same with the passer and PT. Thanks.

[HOBrien]

Thats a tuff call. I personally would put them in the 210 but keep an eye on them. I am not expert so dont go solely on my thoughts. Does your LFS help people out in cercumstances as this? I know mine does.

[Recty]

I'm a little confused... and maybe it was in another thread and I missed it.

What kind of filtration is going to be on your 240? Whatever you have should pull the ammonia/nitrite completely out and your nitrates should be able to stay at least somewhat low.

It stands to reason, in my mind at least, that if your filtration on your 90 isnt good and your fish are suffering, they would be better off to be moved to the bigger, healthier 210.

If your filtration sucks on the new tank though, you'll just end up right back where you are now.

I would REALLY run some carbon in your system, it sounds like you're having some problems and they sound all to be water quality related, activated carbon can help a lot with that.

[DamnPepShrimp]

I can run some carbon in the sump on the 210g. I am kind of done with the 90g as far as water changes or doing anything else to it since the fish will be in the 210g shortly. The filtration will be the same on the 210g for now. Same skimmer modded octo 200 NW, but I will have a lot better flow and not just a rock pile that traps detrius. I will get the MSX 300 skimmer in a couple months for the 210g though. I think a huge factor in my fish looking like crap is that they are cramped in the 90g, I know there is some aggression with the passer. I had him blocked off, but he started to look like crap, colors faded and fins torn a bit. I don't know how his fins could be torn, maybe from the eggcrate, but I let him go back into the tank. His colors brightened up within minutes and he began harassing the other fish as usual. What gets rid of nitrates? I have some cheato in the sump, it is getting bigger, but not big enough for me to crop it and take some out.

So if I add everything over (minus the passer and PT) it will cut the nitrates in half and also I will have a smaller bioload (at the moment, plan to add more later on) and more water volume so less likely for water params to swing outta wack. Also I have better flow, a lot better flow, especially in the tank to help with dead spots, the 90g is just a giant dead spot (it was only a holding tank).

Another thing is if I add the fish tomorrow, especially the wrasse, I will have to go out and get a cleaner shrimp or two, I want them to go in first before the wrasse does! Ugh so much to do!

[HOBrien]

Something must have had to go really wrong for the nitrates to jump that high as I didnt do anything to my 120 long for 3 months except add RO water when it evaporated. I didnt do any skimming or other filtration except my LR and all of my fish looked healthy and the corals I had were open and looking good. I didnt do any water testing or anything during this time. I finally got time again to do things with the tank and all and within the last month I have had 1 fish die since working on the tank again and that was because it jumped ship for some reason. The only thing I am doing now that I didnt do for the past 4 months was use my skimmers.

[DamnPepShrimp]

What fish do you have? I have a HEAVY bio load. 6" passer angel 7" klunzinger wrasse, 4.5" purple tang, 3" niger trigger and a 32" 4-5" thick brazilian dragon moray. Also I feed pretty heavy due to aggression with the passer (and the purple tang). My skimmer isn't pulling much due to the sump level changing, haven't pulled any cheato out and the whole bottom of the tank is covered in liverock (since my eel redecorated!!!!) so the flow in the tank isn't great and created a lot of dead spots where detrius is just sitting!

The 210g is still filling up with RO water, its taking forever! I have about 60g worth in there now, I have a K4 for flow and 300w heater on it. I will add the salt first thing tomorrow. Plan is to buy a cleaner shrimp tom morning, put the passer and purple tang in 5g buckets, they go bye bye, put the wrasse, trigger and eel in a tote. Add the remaining water over to the 210g, add all the liverock, which I will try to drill and make some pillars with. Then acclimate the shrimp, then the fish and eel. Hope all goes well. I also have some filter pads that have carbon in them that I can put in the sump for some mechanical filtration. Anyone have any less suggestions or inputs?

[karaim]

Don't rush. Moving a tank SUCKS, but it must be well planned out. You don't want to quarantine the cleaner shrimp?

[DamnPepShrimp]

The tanks are right next to each other, all I have to do is pump the 90g into the 210g. It'll be cake. Nah, I won't QT the shrimp. I don't treat for ich, only other diseases like flukes, worms, any visible disease of course. I believe ich will always be present, healthy fish with a varied diet can fight it tho. So does anyone see anything wrong with the move or reasons why I shouldn't do it? The way the 90g is, I feel I have to do it asap.

[Recty]

Well, things wont be WORSE in the 210g than in the 90g, if nothing else the fresh 100g or so of water will dilute your crappy polluted water.

[DamnPepShrimp]

That's my theory, it's just like doing a 50% water change on the 90g. What I think I'm going to do is finish filling up the 210 halfway with new RO/DI saltwater (keep in mind this is my first time EVER using RO/DI, so that could be a factor in the fish health) after that, I'll add most of my live rock from the 90g and maybe a couple damsels I have and even my refugium/cheato. See how that does, test the water over the next couple of days and then make the official move on Sunday. Hopefully my fish will be ok in the 90g until then.

Oh and things could get worse, by adding too much new water, couldn't that hurt the fish? Even though my rock is established, still 50% new water, couldn't that harm them?

[Recty]

Think of it like buying a new fish at the LFS. You take them from one tank to another, 100% different water. At least what you're doing now is just a 50% change.

Besides, if you're showing ANY ammonia and nitrites, you're better off putting those fish into the new tank.

I think if it was me, I'd probably fill the 210 full with brand new water and just treat the fish like you just bought them and are acclimating to a new tank. Just if you go that route, make sure you've let your new water settle for a couple days, that way the pH is stabilized and temp and whatever else can vary.

[DamnPepShrimp]

But when you buy a new fish, it's going from completely different water to established water. I'm just worried my tank will start a new cycle again and the ammonia and nitrites rise. As of right now, there zero, but nitrates are pretty high.

Is there anything wrong with putting fish into brand new saltwalter? I always thought the water had to cycle? Or am I mistaken, and it's the rock and sand that creates the cycle? I've just always thought brand new saltwater would "burn" a fish and it's better to have used water, easier on the fish.

[Recty]

BRAND new, like not even an hour old, still has some salt not totally dissolved and it can make the fish a little itchy. You'll know you didnt let the salt mix enough when you put a fish in the water and it acts like it has ich, scratching up against the rocks every now and then.

I thought you were putting your old live rocks over into the bigger tank? Arent you? That will basically instantly cycle your tank, all the bacteria in the rocks will be immediately available in the big tank.

Just doing a 100% water change wont start your tank cycling again, as long as you resume your feeding schedule and you've transferred your rock. Feeding will produce ammonia which the bacteria will break down and the whole nitrogen cycle continues. There is very little bacteria in your water when compared to your LR, so changing out the water wont have an effect.

I wouldnt recommend it, but a friend of my brother's up here just dumps salt mix right into his sump as his way of adjusting salinity... he has some nice LPS and your usual reef fish. I havent seen it personally but my brother has told me about it, his fish havent died and his corals keep on going. Anyway, I wouldnt say it is a good idea but if you let your water mix for a day or two, I really wouldnt be worried about it harming the fish, especially if you move your old rock in.

[DamnPepShrimp]

Hmm, I didn't know that new water wasn't bad for the fish, as long as it's mixed throughly. I am mixing my water in the tank with over 5000gph flow :) so then I might as well do the move today. I thought the water needed to cycle. I am using the 130lbs of rock from my 90g tank but I have new dry base rock (80lbs) that's in the 210 now, which is still filling up btw. Sounds good then, I'm glad I can skip on the cycle, I thoughtwatee had to cycle. Thanks Recty for clearing that up.

[anbosu]

As long as you have some established rock you shouldn't have more than a mini cycle.

[DamnPepShrimp]

Ok, well heres the plan... I just dropped the passer off to my brother, he is in a 50b for now. So the 90g has the wrasse, purple tang (which is my bros as well) trigger and my eel still. I am going to add most of my rock to the new saltwater in the 210g today. Then I am going to throw in a few damsels tomorrow, maybe a cleaner shrimp (before I add the wrasse, mainly as a test). Then on sunday I will add the eel, trigger and wrasse over with the remaining rock and the fuge, skimmer etc. The purple tang will go to my brothers 125g. Sound good?

[anbosu]

I think inverts are typically more sensitive to bad water, so I would add the shrimp after you add the damsels and other fish just to make sure the water is ok. Damsels and eels are usually impossible to kill so I think your plan of moving them early makes sense.

[DamnPepShrimp]

Well I have a klunzinger wrasse (thalasomma genus) and I think the best bet for the shrimp surviving is to have him go in first. I may just skip on the cleaner shrimp, but I really wanted to see one go in my eels mouth and pop out a gill later. Maybe I will try adding one at night later on and see how it goes. More then likely if you add a cleaner shrimp after the wrasse or trigger, they think its food, if its already in there, then it has a better chance of surviving.

[kirkaz]

I would just take it slow, maybe start with 2 of your hardier/less aggressives and make sure everything is ok....Nitrates of 80 or 100 or whatever are not going to hurt the fish you have as long as ph is good. I had a FO set up with a lot higher nitrates than that for severeral years.

[anbosu]

Do you already have the cleaner shrimp with the wrasse?

[DamnPepShrimp]

I only have the eel, Niger trigger and wrasse. I kind of have to take it fast because I need the tank outta the house, it's not mine. I need to check the pH, I use a buffer when I add water.

I don't have any cleaner shrimp at the moment.

Hopefully I can add my rock tonight, I'm trying to warm up the water.

[DamnPepShrimp]

Just an update, I have about 120g of new saltwater. I'm trying to heat the water up & mix the salt, our house heater broke last night :( I forgot to add that I have corals in the sump of my 90g. Zoas that came on some rock I got, I brought them back to life in the sump under a crappy NO bulb. So if they're doing ok, my fish should be too. Could they're washed out colors be from being cramped? My Niger has a cloudy eye and the wrasse's colors are worn out. I have a 30b I could QT them in with prazipro, but that's a small tank. Guess I'll just add them Sunday and see how it goes. Hopefully I can add the rock tonight if my water warms up enough.