Radical change contemplated: swap lit refugia for carbon dosing

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

OK, I'm considering a possible big change to my system, swapping out all (or nearly all) of my lit refugia for carbon dosing.

Here's the rational...

My mixed reef tank system (a 120, a 90, 4 refugia, 2 sumps, skimmer, ozone reactor, carbon in cannister; limewater top off) has been running for more than 13 years, most of that time using brightly lit refugia for nutrient export. It works well. I'm happy with my display tanks. I'm not looking for any change in the two display tanks, unless it can decrease cyano, which I do not anticipate.

I currently use about 450 watts of lighting on my refugia, and the brightest lit ones do the best. That costs about a thousand dollars a year. Is that worth it?

I've experimented with some vodka dosing along with the refugia, and saw little difference aside from perhaps less macroalgae growth, maybe a bit more cyano (which has not declined since stopping vodka) and less scraping of the glass.

Could my system run on vodka/vinegar/whatever, saving a lot of money, and still be as nice or better?

But I'd hate to cause a disaster just for trying something unnecessarily.

Anyone actually make this specific swap on a well established system?

Comments?

[HighlandReefer]

I have always been a believer in "if it ain't broke than don't mess with it". :D

In the interest of our hobby, I think it would be a great contribution if you partake in this adventure. :)

You have had the same set-up for quite a long period of time and perhaps there is room for some excitement.

I am personally very frustrated with my vinegar dosing adventure at this point. Granted I started off on the wrong foot with putting crushed coral in my tank to start with. I went from 80 ppm nitrate down to 10 ppm by dosing vinegar and installing a deep sand bed with chaeto. The phosphates were running around 0.5. The micro was growing rapidly at that point. I installed a phosphate reactor and the micro started to die off. Then the bacteria started to grow faster than I wanted. I cut back on the vinegar and the bacteria slowed down. Now the cyano is taking over. I have temporarily stopped vinegar dosing all together to see what affect it may have. I have 0 nitrates per Mr. Salifert and 0 phosphates per Mr. Hach PO-19. I still have some micro at the lower level of my tank. I am currently contemplating taring my tank down, remove the crushed coral, nuke my rock, install a deep sand bed in its place and start over. I feel that most of my problems are from the crushed coral, which I can not get out?

IMHO, I would tell you to go for it though. :D

[Genetics]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14214482#post14214482 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Randy Holmes-Farley
OK, I'm considering a possible big change to my system,
I currently use about 450 watts of lighting on my refugia, and the brightest lit ones do the best. That costs about a thousand dollars a year. Is that worth it?

:eek2: That's more than my entire 180g costs to run in a year!


I've experimented with some vodka dosing along with the refugia, and saw little difference aside from perhaps less macroalgae growth, maybe a bit more cyano (which has not declined since stopping vodka) and less scraping of the glass.

I think this may provide a means to swapping out some of your refugia. Could you start back up on whatever organic you are preferring, either from the supermarket or from one of the reef-oriented vendors? Start off with that and then slowly phase out your refugiums. Personally, I would keep at least one for no less than a year until you're confident that this is the way you want to go.


Could my system run on vodka/vinegar/whatever, saving a lot of money, and still be as nice or better?

It's hard to say on improvement. For the cost, I would have to say yes (I spent $15 on vodka last year). I had a very nice 29g setup running a refugium and would say my current setup with vodka looks just as nice.


But I'd hate to cause a disaster just for trying something unnecessarily.

Getting over the dosing/learning what to look for curve could have some negative impact.

[KevChem]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14214482#post14214482 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Randy Holmes-Farley
I currently use about 450 watts of lighting on my refugia, and the brightest lit ones do the best. That costs about a thousand dollars a year. Is that worth it?



OK - if I'm calculating right you mean 450 watts on each refugium - for a total of 1800 watts? Then at about 18cents per kWh and a 10hour light period it comes out over $1000.

My question/suggestion - 450 watts seems like a lot - what are your fixtures? You could grow some great macroalgae with a good T5 system with good reflectors and plant bulbs and use a lot fewer watts (assuming your 450 is from something like MH lights).

Kevin

[jedheuer]

Why not try it, but go slow? Gradually decrease the photo period in the refugia as well as slowly removing the macro out while you ramp up on the vodka. If you begin to see adverse reactions go back to what you know works.

[Mike O'Brien]

You do realize the implications if you do this successfully ?

I'm just starting to try it myself. For some reason, I just can't seem to grow Chaetomorpha well. I can grow Caulerpa just fine, but with either one, I end up with Cyano in the refugium. I tried using GFO, but that really doesn't change anything in my tank, it just ends up killing the Macro algae. I have red hair algae in my tank, and would love to get rid of it. IME limiting nutrients isn't going to do anything for it, but it should slow the growth a bit and let my herbivoirs get at it.

I started Sunday with VSV. Being kind of nervouse, I made the recipe and added as much water to cut the dose in half. It makes it easier to add such a small dose. Today I went up to 1 ml. I have also started to use Cycle, and plant to use that once a week at the maintenance dose. I don't know how that compares to other products, but it's cheap and available locally. I figure I'd try some other brands if I continue with this. The only other thing I'm doing is adding an extra feeding at night with Cyclopeeze and Phyto plan for some extra AA's.

What I'm hoping to accomplish is to transition without having anything bleach on me. I have a mixed reef without Acropora, so I'm not really going for the ultra low nutrients. But nutrients are not a problem for me, so I can't use them for a judge of the dose, just my observations. I'm just going to stay with where I'm at now and see what happens in the next few months.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

OK - if I'm calculating right you mean 450 watts on each refugium - for a total of 1800 watts? Then at about 18cents per kWh and a 10hour light period it comes out over $1000.

No, its 450 watts total. The refugia have 100, 100, 175, and about 75 watts. These are large refugia, several square feet of surface area each.

450 watts x 24 h /1000 w/kw x 0.25 $/kwh = $2.70 per day.

so 365 days = $986.

Why not try it, but go slow? Gradually decrease the photo period in the refugia as well as slowly removing the macro out while you ramp up on the vodka. If you begin to see adverse reactions go back to what you know works.

Maybe. I've found that carbon dosing begins to kill the macroalgae, so striking a middle ground position may be tricky.

[Paul_PSU]

I took my macro out of the sump when I started dosing vodka. I have LR and a DSB in the DT. My sump only has my skimmer and return pump. I will let you know how mine progresses. So far so good. It has been about 3 months.

edit: I also have two reactors in sump with carbon. the second had GFO which I took offline also when I started vodka.

[LunarDDS]

I don't think your tank will crash if you try it. Start slow and see how things look. If your bac are taking out nutrients you may be able to phase out your fuges 1 at a time or strike a nice middle ground. I never understood why you have to max out the bac when dosing. Why not just add a little here and there to drive some bac growth and help clean things up once in a while?

[yraveh]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14216480#post14216480 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Randy Holmes-Farley


No, its 450 watts total. The refugia have 100, 100, 175, and about 75 watts. These are large refugia, several square feet of surface area each.

450 watts x 24 h /1000 w/kw x 0.25 $/kwh = $2.70 per day.

so 365 days = $986.


The cost is in fact higher. If you calculate the amperage X Voltage of the ballast you will find that to produce 450 watts of light takes more watts.

look at this quote from reefkeeping magazine (http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2002-03/jg/index.php)


The ballast also has an amp rating. A 250 watt MH ballast that draws 2.6 amps at 120 VAC is drawing 312 watts in, yet producing 250 watts output. The 62 watts difference will be turned into heat. A different 250 watt MH ballast that draws 2.2 amps at 120 VAC is drawing 264 watts, so only 14 watts will be turned into heat.

[redfishsc]

Randy, I would be hesitant... or at least cautious. For one, the plants in the refugia provide a LOT of substrate for growing microfauna. I suppose you could replace that with something like LR ($$$). If I recall your tank, you have a good bit of soft corals (and LPS?) that are probably benefiting from the extra "food" in the system.


If the electricity cost is bothering you, consider upgrading your larger light systems to a DIY LED system (given your chemistry credentials, I'm pretty sure you could handle a soldering iron ;) )

Or consider this little fellow. 42W sure beats 175W. The up front cost is expensive, but should last a very long time.
http://www.247aquariumsupply.com/product_info.php?products_id=143
http://www.247aquariumsupply.com/images/led_oscommerce.jpg

[Joe Pusdesris]

It is impressive indeed that just a little bit of sugar with an energy density of about 16000 joules/gram can power filtration just as much as your lighting which gives the tank 450 joules/second! I suppose photosynthesis is just inefficient.

[Masoch]

Hi Randy,

You could try putting together a turf scrubber. Lots of plans around the net for them. In my own experience, they're very, very good at lowering N and P. Frankly, I think a scrubber works better and takes up less space than chaeto.

I would guesstimate that, with a skimmer and ozone, you could put together an effective 12 X 12 screen (bigger would be better) lit with ~ 100 watts' worth of CFL floodlight from HD ... and export a lot of algal biomass every week. For flow, you could use a T off your drain.

Just a thought.

[onetrickpony]

Since you would be relying on your protein skimmer for nutrient export,
How do you think this article and its conclusion would come into play with dosing carbon?

“Thus, all skimmers tested remove around 20 - 30% of the TOC in the aquarium water, and that's it; 70 - 80% of the measurable TOC is left behind unperturbed by the skimming process. It may be possible to develop a rationalization for this unexpected behavior by referring back to Fig. 1. Perhaps only 20 - 30% of the organic species in the aquarium water meet the hydrophobic requirements for bubble capture, whereas the remaining 70-80%, for whatever reason, don't. Since the chemical structures of the TOC components are not known, any further speculation along these lines must await chemical structural analysis for verification.�
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2009/1/aafeature2

[Jk5]

Welcome to the dark side of the force, Randy...

It´s very dificult to say...
each tank is a diferent world...

I think vodka dosage is not working for Melev...
In many ULNS (ultra low nutrient system) tutorials, they say that they are for Berlin System, not for DSB...
with Dsb perhaphs it works, perhaps not (remember Melev).

My experience.
like you, I have seen macroalgae growth very slowly when you are dosing vodka...
I stopped macroalgae growth with vodka, but I have not killed them...

In the last days, I mixed vinegar with vodka, and then and only then I have seen macroalgae die...
I think vinegar is lower in carbon than vodka, but with vinegar in the mix, I have killed macroalgae...
I know and I like the very lightened fuges I know they really works very good and avoid the nuisance algae growth in the display.
I hope you find the middle ground position until you discovered if carbon dosage works for you...
Perhaps you could run a vertical waterfall ATS (50x50cm) optimized and operated with 100-150 w during 16 h (your costs would be 6 times less)

[Jk5]

I remember macroalgae die with ULNS (zeovit or so)

I remember the Fauna Marine product (ultrabak) contains:

calcium chloride, sulfato del magnesio, potassium chloride, ethylene acetate, ethanol, Peptone, Tryptone, clorhidrato del Histidine, D-Phenylalanine, L-Threonine, DL-Tryptonphane, DL-Valine, tiamine chloride, niconamida, Ribiflavine, clorhidrato de Pridoxine, Cyanococobalamine, Sodiummethyl-4-hydroxybezoate, ácidos orgánicos, oligoelementos.




I would make this mix:
90% vodka 10% vinegar.
And my dosage will be 0.1 ml/100 liters and increasing 0.1 ml each 7 days...
until you have nitrates between 0-3.

If you arrived until 1 ml/100 liters then stop, dont go more there.


I would not add sugar...
With much sugar I have seen diatoms growth in the sand, and co2, macroalgae growths better...

I killed macroalgae using the next mix:
50% vodka 50% vinegar
70% vodka 30% vinegar

Now I am testing
90% vodka 10% vinegar
with this mix It seems it runs well.

[InsaneClownFish]

Randy, first and foremost, thirteen years is fantastic. Congratulations and continued success. Like others have intimated, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it."

While you can supplement your nutrient export with other solutions, I wouldn't remove the fuge on an established system.

Have you considered running less wattage on your refugia to save in energy costs? It has been proven time and time again that a refugium can be very simplistic, and function as a nutrient export, off of very minimal lighting.

[Genetics]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14221326#post14221326 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Jk5

I would make this mix:
90% vodka 10% vinegar.
And my dosage will be 0.1 ml/100 liters and increasing 0.1 ml each 7 days...
until you have nitrates between 0-3.

If you arrived until 1 ml/100 liters then stop, dont go more there.


I would not add sugar...
With much sugar I have seen diatoms growth in the sand, and co2, macroalgae growths better...

I killed macroalgae using the next mix:
50% vodka 50% vinegar
70% vodka 30% vinegar

Now I am testing
90% vodka 10% vinegar
with this mix It seems it runs well. [/B]

I would differ a bit and say to use some sugar at a concentration of 0.04ppm. Sucrose gives you a nice darkening of corals. Glucose/dextrose gives your greens/blues a nice pop. Or so I've seen with my tank recently. I will be watching for VC changes this month.

[ksed]

Just a suggestion, how about Prodibio, the reason why I mentioned about this is because I don't think you can over dose Prodibio. Phase that in with the fuge. I believe it is a milder form of carbon dosing,and also without having to dose daily.
Just IMO. If any with different opinion we would like to hear.

Kevin

[texc4]

Hello,
I m sorry, i speak a little english so I try to say what i do :
First : I dose Biodigest directly in my sump
- 2 doses the 1th day
- 1 dose the 2sd day
- 1 dose the 3th day
- 2 doses the 4th day
I turn off my skimmer 2 hours each time before use Biodigest.
Before, I began vodka 2 weeks ago with :
0.5ml /100l the first week
1.0ml/100l the second week
When I started Biodigest, it was the week three. At this moment, I dose Vodka 1.5ml/100l. I kept this level.
After two month, my PO4 and NO3 levels are not detectable.
I used Biodigest to adjust the good bacteria population in the good proportion.
My setup : 800 liters ( with sump ) Jaubert with a big sand bed
One sump
Skimmer ATI BBM250 ( need a big skimmer to use Vodka ) the skim is now more dark.
salt 1025.
I use clay balls ( I hope it is the good word ) in my sump, 2 liters.
I use zeolith ( 0.5 liter, but i will add to have 1 liter ) in my sump ( 4mm diameter max ) in slow place. My corals grow now very fast, the colors are changed. The polyps are more big.
The first week, the PH down slowly but after it was OK. I dose Vodka when the lights are on. The Biodigest was add when the lights are off. I think i need two months because my tank has a sand bed. I must stay to 1.5 ml/100l to keep NO3 and PO4 down. Don't use Fe to down PO4 and Vodka in the same time : dead corals ( bleach you say ? ). Max dose for Vodka is 2ml/100l ( with sand bed ). Use Vodka if the ratio NO3/PO4 is good ( if your NO3 are 15 and your PO4 are undetectable, don't use for example )
Doses are big because I have a big sand bed, I think I divide by 2 if no sand bed.
Sorry for my poor english... it was what I do

[Genetics]

Out of curiosity, Randy what do you have in your tank?

[mysterybox]

Randy, you know the routine. Go slow. go very slow. acclimate over a 2 or 3 month period. keep your alk low. dosing carbon is not as difficult as GFO is. IMHO. I've been dosing for 2.5 years with very little issue (I also have GFO). Since I have pipefish, I have to keep a fuge. (I actually have 2). I just use compact fluorescents & replace cheato every 6 month or so. maybe longer. It usually grows for the first 3 months, then stays stagnant, then lightens up.

I think I could offer you some links, but alas, I believe that you might have read them!

GOOD LUCK!

Ralph


I do have a question for you here about switching carbon products:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?
s=&threadid=1558232


what carbon sources will you be using?

[HighlandReefer]

Randy, I have been contemplating what your are proposing to do. Personally I am in a situation where I can also start to dose a carbon source of choice. Noting the efforts of many other hobbyists (ie. Genetics), I would be glad to participate in any effort to extend the knowledge of carbon dosing. I have some additional funds that I am willing to supply either to you or to add to my own necessary equipment or supplies, if you so choose to run some kind of experiment. :)

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thanks, everyone for the input!


Out of curiosity, Randy what do you have in your tank?

Here are some pictures of the 120. It is a bit dated, but the tank hasn't changed all that much. The 90 is similar in that it has a lot of rock, some E.quads, and various LPS and soft corals. There is not much SPS. I have a lot more live rock in one of the sumps.

FWIW, I'd not striving for a ULNS, so any issues relating to such system would only be arrived at accidently. In fact, I'm concerned that some of the organisms (like the leather corals) will not fair as well if the nutrients are any lower than they are now.



http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/3491Randy_s_tank_Feb_5_2006-med.JPG

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/3491Randys_Tank_March_2__6_.jpg


http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/3491Randys_Tank_March_2__7_.jpg

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Have you considered running less wattage on your refugia to save in energy costs? It has been proven time and time again that a refugium can be very simplistic, and function as a nutrient export, off of very minimal lighting.

Perhaps true, but it is the brightest lit refugium that has most of the growth in my tank. I even moved the 175 w mh lamp from one refugium to another, and the high growth moved with it. Maybe I can drop 2 of the others and keep this one, at least during a phase in.


FWIW, I do not grow Chaeto. I've found that in my system Caulerpa racemosa is presumably more efficient, and over time it replaced all of the Chaeto.

[HighlandReefer]

My Sarcophyton and xenia are withering away in my system now. My kenya tree are hanging in there with little growth. My mushrooms are doing great. The sps are doing great. :D

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

That's what worries me.

At the moment, my greatest focus in the tank is on the anemones (rose E. quad not shown, and the purple H.. crispa that is shown, for example). Maybe I'll post in the anemone forum to see if folks have kept such anemones long term in carbon dosed systems. :)

[HighlandReefer]

I have had a RBTA for some time now and it seems to be doing fine. :)

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

That's good to hear.

Here's the anemone thread:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1558665

[Joe Pusdesris]

It is good to hear that someone else on RC still uses Caulerpa. I run caulerpa sertularioides and taxifolia, and I am much happier with these caulerpas than chaetomorpha. I will be following your progress.

[tonyespinoza]

hey randy - i am headed in the other direction (setting up a shallow fuge that's the same surface area as my display (60x40)).

i'm contemplating caulerpa -- in all these years have you had any issues with it going "sexual"? do you run the lights reverse to the display?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I run the lights 24/7. I've experimented with other cycles, but 24/7 has worked best in terms of apparent growth. I never had any of the normal form of the Caulerpa racemosa sporulate, but some small bits of the peltata variant of Caulerpa racemosa have sporulated at least a couple of times (which did not concern me).

[tonyespinoza]

Thanks Randy!

Anyone know where i could buy Caulerpa racemosa online?

Good luck on your potential change... I assume you don't expect to just "swap" the function and performance of the refugia with carbon dosing... you will inherently have a different ecosystem going and there's no doubt the live stock will shift accordingly. But maybe change is good....

[Biologist]

Hi Randy,

How did using lower levels of light in your refugium affect your water parameters? I see you said that the growth in your refugium followed the greater amount of light, but did nitrates, etc. rise in your tank with the lower light levels in the refugium?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Since you would be relying on your protein skimmer for nutrient export,
How do you think this article and its conclusion would come into play with dosing carbon?

I don't know, but I might say simply that you are adding more organic carbon so can then remove more, and still effectively export a reasonable portion of the newly grown bacteria or their dead body parts. Somehow it works out, as folks have found. :)

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Just a suggestion, how about Prodibio, the reason why I mentioned about this is because I don't think you can over dose Prodibio. Phase that in with the fuge. I believe it is a milder form of carbon dosing,and also without having to dose daily.
Just IMO. If any with different opinion we would like to hear.

Do you know what it is, and what is the basis for thinking you cannot overdose?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

How did using lower levels of light in your refugium affect your water parameters? I see you said that the growth in your refugium followed the greater amount of light, but did nitrates, etc. rise in your tank with the lower light levels in the refugium?

I do not know. I rarely measure nitrate or phosphate. :)

[mesocosm]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14224787#post14224787 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by tonyespinoza
... Anyone know where i could buy Caulerpa racemosa online? ... If you're in California, Caulerpa prolifera is the only species that you can legally possess.


California State Law: It is illegal to possess, transport, transfer, release alive, import, or sell Caulerpa taxifolia, Caulerpa sertularioides, Caulerpa mexicana, Caulerpa ashmeadii, Caulerpa scalpelliformis, Caulerpa racemosa (and all varieties of C. racemosa), Caulerpa cupressoides, Caulerpa verticillata, Caulerpa floridana (California Fish and Game Code 2300).



HTH
:thumbsup:

[tonyespinoza]

woah. yes - that helps a lot! no caulerpa for me!

[InsaneClownFish]

I've found that in my system Caulerpa racemosa is presumably more efficient, and over time it replaced all of the Chaeto.

Randy, be careful with Caulerpa racemosa. I see you mentioned you haven't had any issue with it sporulating. While it's true it may be more efficient than Cheato as a nutrient export, Cheato is a bit of a safer macro IMHO. I've had C. racemosa go asexual in my old system and it is not pretty.

I personally will never use it again. I'm not saying that the seasoned aquarist can't have success with it, but I just don't want to see people run out and buy it thinking it's a miracle algae and not take proper care; or realize the risks.

[tmz]

Randy,
Electriity is much less for the bare bottom chaetomrpha refugia I use. Both the chaetomorpha and gracileria in each 30inch by 19 inch bin grow quite well with 15 hours per day lighting via 2 spiral type flourescent spot lights from Home Depot. Each bulb costs about $7 and uses 18w producing and equivalent of 65 watts. So 36 watts(130 equivalent ) illuminates approximately 4 square feet(30 inches x 19 inches). The lighting has been very adequate for these macroalgaes requiring at least weekly harvesting. . In fact I have been able to keep red bubble tip anemones( E. quadricolor) for several weeks pending sale or trade in them as well.

[tmz]

Hi Randy,
Since you noted your concern for leathers and anemones in your system if you go for lower nutrients, I offer the following, anecdotally.
I have a mixed system containing leathers( sacrophyton, sinularia nepthia, lobophyton, capnella) xenia, a variety of zoanthidae, a colony of red bubble tip anemones ( E. Quadricolor) ,lps and sps in 6 integrated tanks and 5 bins serving as the sump, macroalgae refugia (chaetomorpha and gracileria only) and an unlit remote deep sand bed. I have almost no hair algae and just an occasional patch here and there of cyanobacteria. There are 40 fish in the system and I feed them well.
I do not presently dose carbon. I do use gfo, granualted activated carbon and 2 asm g4 x skimmers.

All of the fish and invertebrates are doing very well and have been for a few years . Several are over 7 years old which is when I started.

Phosphate hangs around .12ppm(hanna colrimeter) which seems adequate for the chaetomorpha with no apparent negative impact on acropora growth( I do keep alkalinity at 11.8dkh) nor nuisance algae.

My concern has been with nitrates at about 40 -50ppm ( Salifert/ API) even with the 2month old rdsb(which may not be doing very much). I think the nitrates may be making it hard on certain corals such as stylopora and seriatopora. I am in the process of adding adding a diy sulfur denitrator ,hoping it will get me to a point where I can keep the nitrates around 10ppm. I may also need more space dedicated to macroalgae.

Perhaps I will dose carbon again if that fails to get me where I want to be.I did dose about 4ml of vodka per day for several months a couple of years ago on a then 400 g or so system without discernable ill effect but became concerned about potential TOC buildup . I still have those concerns and some about the potential for culturing harmful bacteria. I was not structured in measuring the resluts of the dosing . It seemed bryopsis which I had at the time waned as did xenia but I may have been looking for nutrient reduction through rose colored glasses.

Good Luck

[puter]

My first inclination would be to see if I could get away with lighting the refugia more efficiently. If your refugia are shallow (or you can make them so) this 19W bulb puts out 500-600 PAR at about 3" below the bulb.

http://www.fragtastic.com/posts/0901/SumpBulb.jpg

Mark

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thanks folks. :)

FWIW, I do use very efficient bulbs. Aside from the 175 w mh, the others are high efficiency fluorescent types. I'm not sure any are more efficient. I could try less actual light, however.

[adtravels]

Did it months ago Randy, only positive results for me.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thanks.

What sort of creatures do you keep in your tank?

[ksed]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14224866#post14224866 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Randy Holmes-Farley
Just a suggestion, how about Prodibio, the reason why I mentioned about this is because I don't think you can over dose Prodibio. Phase that in with the fuge. I believe it is a milder form of carbon dosing,and also without having to dose daily.
Just IMO. If any with different opinion we would like to hear.

Do you know what it is, and what is the basis for thinking you cannot overdose?
Randy

Sorry, thats just based on Manufactures info. I also heard from various reefers that Prodibio is a mild form of carbon dosing .I don't know if that true or not. Just a thought.

Kevin

[LunarDDS]

Randy,

How did you get to point where you had that much fuge in your system? I ran a 180 on what is basically 20 gal of grape for 5 years with no issues. I run 24/7 with a your basic 18" tank light. I have now added a skimmer since going full sps but I've kept some sps without the skimmer with only the fuge. I just wonder what is it about your system that you need that much fuge.

[mhaith]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14216480#post14216480 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Randy Holmes-Farley
[B]
Maybe. I've found that carbon dosing begins to kill the macroalgae, so striking a middle ground position may be tricky.

I have found striking a middle ground with everything in this hobby of keeping a vibrant ecosystem is tricky (that is what makes it so challenging and well....fun)!

I light my fuge with two 19W 'Melev' 5100K bulbs and I have been carbon dosing 2-7ml (V, not VSV which = Cyano in my system) for over a year, yet the Chaeto in my fuge does well despite GAC, GFO and aggressive skimming.

My RBTA, softies, SPS and LPS all appear to be doing fine.

For me it is a balancing act of import and my desired export methods. Maybe try dosing less carbon or feeding a bit more to maintain the Caulerpa

http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll87/mhaith/1yrFTSrightangle.jpg

HTH

[Paul_PSU]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14229898#post14229898 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ksed
Randy

Sorry, thats just based on Manufactures info. I also heard from various reefers that Prodibio is a mild form of carbon dosing .I don't know if that true or not. Just a thought.

Kevin

My understanding was that portion of it are. The Biodigest is the bacteria and I think it is Bioptim that is the carbon source. That is the reason why I dose Biodigest and vodka.

[Jk5]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14222018#post14222018 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Genetics
I would differ a bit and say to use some sugar at a concentration of 0.04ppm. Sucrose gives you a nice darkening of corals. Glucose/dextrose gives your greens/blues a nice pop. Or so I've seen with my tank recently. I will be watching for VC changes this month.

Thank you for posting Genetics...
I´m agree with you...
My recipe 90% vodka 10% vinegar is based on your recipe...

My problem was I started testing with high amounts of vinegar...
And I think I saw a few diatoms in the sand by sugar...

All my credit for you, my friend Genetics...

I remember your recipe was:

200 ml vodka
50 ml vinegar
1.5 Table spoon Sugar

Are you using the same recipe or have you modified it?
Thanks...
Excuseme Randy and all for the off topic...

[HighlandReefer]

Randy,

Do you have any interest in the realm of seagrasses combined with macro's?

[Obi-dad]

One other effect of the change from refugia to carbon dosing will be that the plankton produced from the refugia will be eliminated (pods, eggs, etc). That may not make a difference to you. I keep a mandarin so it would make a difference to me, although my fuge is smaller with far less light than yours. I have tried carbon dosing but took it too far and eventually bleached some acros. So I prefer a fuge over carbon dosing.

[Mike O'Brien]

IMO refugia without algae still are a great place for pods to breed. You can light it with low watt lamps and just use a shorter photoperiod so you don't screw up the pod's life cycles.

[tmz]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14237253#post14237253 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by HighlandReefer
Randy,

Do you have any interest in the realm of seagrasses combined with macro's? :) Are you doing that Cliff? I'd like to learn more about anecdotal experiences?. I think it might help keep a viable denitrifying sand bed with the rhizomes and roots helping to reduce nutrient in the bed and maintaining open channels for low O2 water to seep in.I don't like the high lighting that the seagrass would need though as compared to the relatively low light that works for chaetomorpha.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I think it would be interesting to grow seagrass, but the available refugia are probably too shallow.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Ok, I removed my oldest refugium. It's been in place for about 10 years. I made it from a black ABS tool chest (from Home Depot, made to put in the back of pickup trucks, I think). Under the macroalgae and live rock there was a deep sand bed. At least 6" of oolitic aragonite. Interestingly, while there was a coating of fine grey detritus on the surface of it, there was no hydrogen sulfide smell nor any black spots all the way to the bottom. The bottom 5.5 inches looked pretty much like new packed wet sand.

Anyway, I sucked it all out to the bare bottom, and refilled the refugium with live rock, partly from the refugium, but also a lot from my sump. Most of the rock is accustomed to darkness from the sump. It will now be a dark live rock zone, growing sponges, bacteria, and anything else that wants to live there.

I also started vodka. I dosed 10 ml Saturday morning, 2 x 10 mL Sunday (morning and evening) and 15 ml this morning. Keep in mind this is about a 300 gallon total volume system. I used similar volumes in my experiemnts earlier this year.

Yesterday I shut of the light to a second refugium, but have not yet removed anything from it. It only has Caulerpa in it, not any rock or sand. I'll probably pull out the macroalgae soon.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

How did you get to point where you had that much fuge in your system? I ran a 180 on what is basically 20 gal of grape for 5 years with no issues. I run 24/7 with a your basic 18" tank light. I have now added a skimmer since going full sps but I've kept some sps without the skimmer with only the fuge. I just wonder what is it about your system that you need that much fuge.

Well, it’s a long story, but I've always keep them pretty brightly lit and have expanded the refugia sizes as the tanks have increased. Last year I replaced 8 x 34 watt fluorescent tubes (272 watts) that laid over 2 of them with 2 x 100 watts lights of America fixtures. I don't think that was a useful improvement, but it used less electricity and was safer (no salt spray on the bulbs themselves).

My refugia with less light (where I keep some clownfish and anemones along with macroalgae, rock, etc) have always been poor to grow macroalgae.

[tonyespinoza]

randy - this is a bit off topic - but how often and how much were you harvesting algae from your refugia?

[Jk5]

Hi Randy...
I have experimented dosing vodka alone and dosing a mix of Vodka plus Vinegar...

There is a great diference...
A diference like heaven and earth...
I come from vodka dosage alone and I can say Vodka mixed with vinegar works better than vodka alone...

i. e. the mix of vodka and vinegar is more powerful against filamentous algae...
I´m 100% sure if your mix is composed
90% vodka
10% vinegar
you will be happy with your results more than if you dose vodka alone...

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

randy - this is a bit off topic - but how often and how much were you harvesting algae from your refugia?

Quite a bit, but I've not quantified it. I usually let the refugium pack tight with macroalgae, then trim it back by about half. I often remove close to half of a salt bucket in a pruning. :)

[tmz]

I had a fine sand bed(4inches)in a 36x18x12 tank under some xenia and other corals with a few fish which was linked into my system. It was there for several years . When I removed it I was also surprised by how clean the sand down a half inch or so was almost as if nothing had reached it. So, I figured it was eitheir strerile(not getting enough flow to promote activity) or performing amazingly well.

[ksed]

Randy are you using only vodka or a mixture of other carbon sources?
Have you noticed any difference in you existing refugia?

Thanks
Kevin

[Husky_1]

Hey Randy,
I switched over from utilizing a refugium and GFO to Carbon Dosing system last year. I ended up going the Zeovit route maily because of the amount of support.

Here is what I noticed:
I had a small transition period and noticed a phosphate spike (cheap salifert kit no photometer here) for approximately one week. I never saw measurable nitrates so I assume this was due to the phosphate remover going off line.

My LPS have never been that happy sense the change, growth was slowed until I started feeding my fish multiple times per day. I have a leather that does not seem to mind at all.

I cannot keep zoanthids in the my system after the change, but mushrooms seem to be fine. I have no anemones, other than the occasional aptasia that pops up.

It sounds like you have already started and just remember that if you do end up driving your nutrients down too low, you will have to ensure that your major parameters like DKH, MG, Calc, Etc...are around the NSW levels. Having higher levels, especially DKH, tend to "burn" coral.

If you want to ensure that you never go too low, overfeeding and Amino Acids may enable you to keep your nutrients up.

Good luck to you, I am looking forward to seeing your results and analysis. Seeing a scientist, especially someone who has contributed as much to the hobby as you have, moving to this type of system is an indicator of a paradigm shift in our beloved hobby.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thanks again, everyone, for the input. :)

Here's an update:

I'm presently dosing about 30-45 ml of vodka per day, in 2 doses. One in the early AM and one in the mid to late afternoon.

I've discontinued 2 of the refugia, shutting down the two 100 w lighting systems (which were on 24/7). One is now filled with live rock only and is kept dark. The other is mostly empty.

One refugium is now lit by a 175 w mh for 8 h/day, down from 24/7. In the next few weeks I'm thinking of shortening the lit time slowly and steadily.

The other refugium, with smaller lights, has fish and anemones in it in addition to some macroalgae, so I'm treating it more like a tank. I rarely harvest algae from it.

I've also just recently stopped any iron dosing, to see what effect that may have, especially on cyano and the growth of Caulerpa in the main tank (where I'd prefer it to not grow). I still dose silicate for sponges, etc.

I've recently noted a huge possible drop in ORP, to less than 100 mV, that I addressed in another thread:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1575229

Otherwise, I've seen little impact on the tank. Green algae film growth on the glass seems typical for the tank. The last couple of days my yellow leather has been closed a lot more, but that may be an unrelated issue. Another leather looks normal. Anemones (big H. crispa and many E. quads) are doing fine. Hard and soft corals seem fine. The cyano seems unchanged.

[HighlandReefer]

Randy,

Are you still running GFO?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

No GFO. Only GAC. :)

[pdfrogman]

Randy tagging along... I recently ( mid nov) swapped the contents of my 180 into my 450. MY sump holds about 75 gallons of water while running. I have a 24X24X16 fuge lit with a 6500K PC.
my fuge is bare bottom with cheato I trim it down once a week it's dark green.

I run 2 large reactors with GFO and GAC
my ORP typically is 418-425MV
my phosphates are .03PPM ( hanna photometer)
my nitrates are 0.25PPM ( lamotte test kit)
it's an SPS dominate tank with a small varity of LPS and softies

I added 14 anthias and with the increased feeding I'm noticing faster green micro on glass
so I've been reading and contemplating carbon dosing.
another option was a coil denitrifier

hoping to hear you have good results!

[tmz]

Hi Randy,

I did this a couple of years ago at 4ml for a 400 plus gallon system for approximately 4 months without structure and stopped due to conerns about cabon build up and the unknowns of which bacteria are being cultured.

I have a 575 gallon system with about 40 fish and hundreds of corals. Refugia, rsdb and sump space account for about 275 gallons.

To control phosphate I run about 700grams of gfo in 3 reactors and still it hovered aroiund 1.5. ppm which was enough to mostly control nuisance algae and to keep sps from deteriorating. This was in additon to 80 gallons of chaeto and gracileria. I would bounce it down from time to time with a bit of lathanum chloride but never got lower than 1.2ppm( hannah colorimeter).

Nitrate ran at about 50ppm . I added a remote deep sand bed and a second large skimmer upping total skimmer flow between the two units to 2400gph. I contiued GAC use. After over 2months there was very little change in nitrates.

I also turned off my uv units a month ago and installed a sulfur denitrator 5 weeks ago which is now producing 250 ml per minute of 0 nitrate water.

Fourteen days ago , I started dosing only 8ml of vodka per day in the am. Phosphate dropped to .07 ppm without any lanthanum additions or changes in gfo, it has remained at .07ppm for the last week. Three days ago I added sugar to the dose at 1/2 tsp per day for a bit of diversity and hoping it might impact nitrate more than vodka.

The water seems clearer even without the uvs. Polyp extension appears more pronounced particularly on the nepthia and sinulria and sps. Zoanthus in particular seem to be more open .

I may be able to wean the system off gfo eventually but for now a little of this and a little of that seems to be working.I am keeping a daily lof of observations and testing NO3 and PO4 daily.

HJope this works for both of us.

[Heinz]

Randy,

i am afraid you change to much at once,

also i think you dose way to much,

you go to fast, IMHO

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thanks everyone. :)

Could be I'm dosing too much, especially with the ORP dropped so much, although I've not seen any harm in the tank itself.

Maybe I'll drop back to 5 ml per day? Seem reasonable to folks?

[Heinz]

less is more with vodka,

5ml/day and see what happens

[Genetics]

You're up to 30-45mL/day with 40% vodka. Most people would see an effect on a tank your size between 10-20mL of 40% vodka and some see effects as low as a mL or two. I would stick with half of what you are currently adding and see if your ORP improves over the next few days. If you are unhappy with the results by having to clean your glass more, then increase it back to a dose that is better suited.

How is your skimmer doing? I would assume that is a mess currently.

[tmz]

My glass is definately cleaner with only the 8ml dose even more so than when I ran uvs. Skimmer even when running wet is funkier.

[Tony Romano]

Started dosing yesterday!

[spamreefnew]

the only bad thing i have found with my vodka dosing is that all the directions tell you that when your nitrates drop to zero you should cut back on the dose. i find this to be false. i have found that i have to stay at the final dose amount to keep trates at zero long term. every time i cut back they creep back up over a weeks time.

[Jk5]

spamreefnew...
Yes, it is false if you got nitrates 0 and cut, you keep nitrate 0...
dosage must be continued.

It´s not false when people say you cut at half...
Usually it means you will keep nitrates 5.

I think nitrates 0 is not better than nitrates 2-5.

Denitrification proces and carbon sources might inhibit the nitrification process...
this is an enzimatic inhibition...
what happens when there are a strong inhibition of nitrification proces?
Well, you have not nitrates but you have another nitrogen compounds in your tank...
http://translate.google.es/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.naclu2.com%2Findex.php%3Foption%3Dcom_content%26view%3Darticle%26id%3D1 6%3Ael-proceso-de-desnitrificaion-metodo-vodka-y-otras-locuras%26catid%3D4%3Anumero-2&sl=es&tl=en&hl=es&ie=UTF-8



Randy, I think you are dosing a lot...


<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14243716#post14243716 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Randy Holmes-Farley

I also started vodka. I dosed 10 ml Saturday morning, 2 x 10 mL Sunday (morning and evening) and 15 ml this morning. Keep in mind this is about a 300 gallon total volume system. I used similar volumes in my experiemnts earlier this year.

[/B]


I think dosage must be marked by nitrate read when you arrive to nitrates 2-5.



But
dont dose more than 1 ml/100 liters each day...
that must be the max amount daily.

12 ml must be your max amount.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

But
dont dose more than 1 ml/100 liters each day...
that must be the max amount daily.

12 ml must be your max amount.

On what do you base that advice?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

How is your skimmer doing? I would assume that is a mess currently.

I don't track skimmate, as it goes down a drain, but the skimmer throat was coated with black gunk instead of green gunk. :)

[Jk5]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14399574#post14399574 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Randy Holmes-Farley
But
dont dose more than 1 ml/100 liters each day...
that must be the max amount daily.

12 ml must be your max amount.

On what do you base that advice?


Please... all the people who are dosing vodka...

Can you tell to Mr Holmes How many ml are you dosing per 25 gallons?
I dont know anybody dosing 3ml/25 gallons...

[miwoodar]

Here is a story about 35ml into a 200...


http://www.ultimatereef.net/forums/showthread.php?t=211460&highlight=35ml


The best my tank ever looked was at ~1ml / 65 gal and a truckload of food.

[Jk5]

Ok...
I´m running 1 ml/40 gallons...

I know every tank is a world...
But I only know 2 or 3 cases making a dosage like yours, Randy...
I think melev made a high dosage too, but melev was a special case... In most cases when there is a dsb, carbon dosage doesnt work.

your dosage is not normal, Randy...

tipycal max amount I know is 1ml/25 gallons...

And usually dosages are minors than 1ml/25 gallons in most of cases...

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Can you tell to Mr Holmes How many ml are you dosing per 25 gallons?
I dont know anybody dosing 3ml/25 gallons...

Well, perhaps not. I've observed these threads for years before trying it, and frankly, aside from the low ORP, there is no apparent issue in my tank. I'm taking it as a possible warning sign, but not necessarily an indication of a problem.

[mhaith]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14406376#post14406376 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by miwoodar
Here is a story about 35ml into a 200...


http://www.ultimatereef.net/forums/showthread.php?t=211460&highlight=35ml


The best my tank ever looked was at ~1ml / 65 gal and a truckload of food.

Mike, that thread and your thoughts changed my understanding of the role of bacterial populations in my tank. I am currently dosing prodibio and an MB7 'chaser' with an addition of a live rock every now and then. All my dosing is a function of propogating bacterial strains and outcompeting cyanobacteria. Haven't had detectable N or P in a long time!
FWIW-3ml in a 210g.......

[miwoodar]

Glad to hear it Michael. I wish my thoughts were that helpful to me! :lol:

[Tony Romano]

Which prodibio - just to verify.

What is MB7?

I have sulfur reactors running - I assume vodka should help them work better. Also GFO reactor is off, going to 2ml today. NO3 seems to be dropping...

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I assume vodka should help them work better.

I would not assume that to be true. Sulfur denitrators proceed on a different chemical pathway than do carbon denitrators.

[Jk5]

Excuseme Randy and all by the off topic...
Randy, Is right the next text? sulfur denitrators are bad?


Another type of reactor based on another type of bacteria that metabolize sulfur to reduce nitrate should be unmasked, declaring their futility. Although it is already connoció operation some years ago in France, its active ingredient has not been revealed in detail. Here we see the reactions that lead to this conclusion.

"Sulfuric acid versus nitrate"

In the metabolism of Thiobactilus denitrificans, sulfur, and nitrate to nitrogen gas and reacting sulfuric acid. Due to this reaction, the bacteria gain energy, they can use to reduce CO2 into organic substances. These bacteria are autotrophic. Bacteria, however, not only use the nitrate for the formation of sulfuric acid. Water enters the reactor as sulfur is saturated oxygen. This is also used by bacteria in the first place:

2S + 2H2O + 3 O2 Ã* 2H2SO4

Sulfur + oxygen + water Ã* hydrogen sulfide

Sulfuric acid is formed from sulfur and oxygen.
This sulfuric acid is produced without the use of nitrate. Only if the dissolved oxygen in the water tank is drained completely, the bacteria begin to reduce the nitrate:

2S 2H2O + 2NO3 + N2 Ã* 2H2SO4 + 2e

Nitrate + Water + Sulfur nitrogen gas to sulfuric acid + + 2 electrons

In addition to the nitrogen gas, forming large amounts of sulfuric acid. This reaction takes place in nature. Here, the concentration of sulfuric acid can reach up to 0.1N (pH 1.0) without killing the bacteria. This process is used in the industry including: bacteria are used to dissolve metals in natural minerals.

The results of the formation of sulfuric acid in the aquarium are:
- Increasing the concentration of sulfate in water from the aquarium. The ion balance between the different types of sulfate ions becomes
- Destruction of the buffer system, the alkalinity is used and decreases:

H2SO4 + 2HCO3 Ã*-SO42-+ 2H2O + 2

Sulfuric acid aerosols hydrocarbonate + + Water + Carbon Dioxide

Sulfuric acid reacts with baking soda dissolved in water, which is important for the buffer system in water and is used by the corals during the formation of calcium carbonate. The result is sulfate, water and CO2. The latter, acidified water and improves the growth of filamentous algae.

Some people try to avoid these disadvantages by using a calcium carbonate filter connected after the reactor sulphide. What happens there?

Sulfuric acid reacts with calcium carbonate. The result is calcium sulfate (gypsum) and CO2.

H2SO4 + 2HCO3-Ã*-CaSO42 + 2H2O + 2CO2

Sulfuric acid aerosols hydrocarbonate + Calcium + Water + Carbon Dioxide
(Gypsum)

While the CO2 reacts with calcium carbonate - which is a positive reaction that also occurs in a calcium reactor - a part of the gypsum precipitates, the remainder is released into the aquarium. Here, the cast cause a large increase in the concentration of calcium, 800 mg / l is a value typically observed.

This sounds very positive at first glance. However, do not use coral calcium sulfate for the formation of their skeleton, but calcium carbonate. This decline creates a gap in the hydrocarbonate aquarium. The alkalinity or carbonate hardness is reduced to be hasty. This can be seen at high levels of calcium. 800 mg / l calcium, and in accordance with the law of chemical mass balances, only a low carbonate hardness may exist (approximately 3 or 1 mmol KH alkalinity). The addition of hydrogen carbonate will cause the precipitation of calcium carbonate - and the formation of calcium carbonate - and the formation of sulfuric acid! So, we can not increase the alkalinity additives!


CaSO42-+2 H2O Ã* 2CO2 + Ca (HCO3) 2 + H2SO4 Ã* CaCO3 + CO2 + H2O + H2SO4

Sulfuric acid to the system again! The concentration of sulfate increases. With regard to the production of sulfuric acid is used not only nitrate (see above), but it is far more sulfuric acid while nitrate is reduced.

We can try to dilute sulfuric acid and ion exchange balance with frequent changes of water, but attention, what are we doing here? Frequent changes of water will stop the accumulation of nitrate, even without reactor sulfuric acid and sulfur.

We can also precipitate the barium sulfate by adding chloride. In this case hydrochloric acid accumulates in the aquarium. This can be neutralized by adding sodium carbonate. In this case occurring chloride and sodium bicarbonate. The ionic composition that is produced by sodium chloride can be balanced with the next water change. Or we can sell our aquarium and run a chemistry lab!.

THE SOLUTION:
If the filter is operated with denitrification organic carbon, the whole problem is avoided. The reaction creates even bicarbonates (HCO3). This stabilizes the base and not destroyed. The ion balance is not changed. Nitrarreductor
Choosing the best system of denitrification depends on each user. In principle, aquariums densely populated with over 300 liters of capacity with a high metabolism, rentabilizarÃ*an easily using a nitrate reactor. However, aquarium size and lower metabolism would be more easy and practical use of chemical reactors. Other fans believe the rate of unnecessary N03 below 20 mg / L, can control it with a maintenance, proper equipment and biomass. The rate of nitrate required depends on the sensitivity of invertebrates and fish are our breeding in the aquarium. Author: Alejandro Soria

[Tony Romano]

Ok - I am not smart enough to read last post! (kidding. sort of)

Should I take the darn things off line? Leave them on? Take out sulfur and use different media?

:)

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Excuseme Randy and all by the off topic...
Randy, Is right the next text? sulfur denitrators are bad?

Sulfur reactors can and do work, but they potentially lower alkalinity in the process, and add some sulfate. Many people use them, and just have to replace the lost alkalinity. I discuss them here:

Nitrate in the Reef Aquarium
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/august2003/chem.htm

[Tony Romano]

Thanks - So the 2 "pathways" can co-exist?

[mhaith]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14414952#post14414952 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Tony Romano
Which prodibio - just to verify.

What is MB7?

I have sulfur reactors running - I assume vodka should help them work better. Also GFO reactor is off, going to 2ml today. NO3 seems to be dropping...

BioDigest and Bioptim at half dose as the daily Vodka substitutes. MB7=Microbacter7 a Brightwell product. No proof it has any affect what-so-ever but the theory being it may include a seperate bacteria culture. (I am too lazy to look it up.)

[tmz]

Tony R. I've been using a sulfur denitrator with 3 litres of sulfur for a bout 5 weeks on a 575 gallon system. Flow is up to about 15 litres per hour of near 0 nitrate effuent. Input is about 40 ppm nitrate. Alkalinity has dropped over the course of 5 weeks from 12dkh to 10dkh. I am adjusting with baking soda now. I also dose limewwter 24/7 and run a clacium reactor. Ph has dropped slightly from 8.25/ 8.35 to 8.20/ 8.30

[cybrsufr]

I have 273G total water volume in my system and I am dosing 13ml Vodka a day, 1 Vial of ProdiBio BioDigest every 15 Days, Seachem Fuel every 5 days (replacement for the more expensive BioOptim), and Dosing 9000mg Vitamin C each day. Tank has never been healthier, NO3 has dropped from 25ppm to 2ppm, PO4 is undetectable to .01, Ca, Dkh and Mg are 450, 9.5, 1500 respectively. It has taken almost 90 days to reach these levels after starting the Vodka Dosing, but have had no bacterial blooms, water is crystal clear, and only have to clean the glass once a week. Very happy with the results.

[Tony Romano]

tmz - how long to fill 20ml?

[tmz]

125ml per 30seconds( about 5 seconds for 20ml) . I have 3 litres of sulfur in the reactor and about 4 inches of seachem matrix media (not the gac; the pumice stone like denitrifying media) on the bottom. So that's 15000ml per hour or a 15 litres per hour (about 93 gallons per day on the 575 system) for 3 litres of sulfur. I believe some of the articles say you can go about that high in flow ( ie 5 times the sulfur volume). It took about 4weeks to get there with small daily adjustments. I started at 2 drops per second and checked the effluent for NO3 daily. When 0 nitrate was being produced I doulbled the effluent flow.

For the last two and a half weeks, I have been dosing vodka lightly at 8ml per day, now 10ml per day. I also added a half tsp of sugar to the daily dose 5 days ago.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

OK, here's an update. The one 175 w mh refugium is still at 8 h per night. I dosed no vodka for 3 days and the ORP only rose a little, to about 113 mV. Then I restarted it yesterday at 5 ml per day, and the ORP is back to 90 mV this morning. No apparent issues or changes in the tank relative to the past (which is good). :)

[Tony Romano]

Tom - Wow i had no idea flow could be so high.

What brand of reactor do you use?

[tmz]

I don't want to intrude on Randy's thread anymore than I inadvertently have. I use the diy reactor per the Reefkeeping magazine article and the diy thread. If you have further questions send a pm . I'd be happy to continue this discussion.

[mysterybox]

Randy, if you don't mind answering this on your thread, I will be switching soon (as soon as I run out) from AZ-NO3 to Vodka/Vinegar (and maybe sugar;not sure), can I premix that together without water for storage. Due to a family matter, it would not be good for me to have straight vodka around. I want to mix 90% Vodka & 10% Vinegar together. Say 6 months worth or less.
Ralph

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Yes, that is fine. As long as it is not diluted with a lot of water. :)

[mysterybox]

Thanks!

[Jk5]

To mysterybox...

90% vodka 10% vinegar are good to lighten and reducing zooxanthelas coral...

Glucose is better than sugar for giving colour contrast and feeding ...

the last recipe working our friend Genetics...




Vodka - 90% 900mL

Vinegar - 10% 100mL (higher levels lead to macro die-off, much like you mentioned in your testing) I haven't figured this out in ppm yet as this would be the most useful number.

6tblspn sugar - Better results using glucose/dextrose, and you can increase glucose levels further by 2x or more to get pastel colors. Table sugar will actually darken your corals and is why you should use less.

Vitamin C - You can add quite a bit. A 1/4tsp for 200g is more than enough daily unless treating a specific infection. And you may want to add this to prepared food instead of VSVcV formula.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
End of the recipe...


If you use too Iron from Kent Marine (containing Iron, manganese, zinc, potassium).

You have a home made ULNS system...

You might add zeolithes stones withouth reactor in a hang filter ( each week adding a little amount until 800 grs-100 gallons, flow 200-300 L/h)

and then you have a very cheap DIY ultra low nutrients system.

[mcarroll]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14218146#post14218146 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by yraveh
The cost is in fact higher.

For example, I have a three foot Coralife "Aqualight Advanced" fixture running 2 x XM 20K's rated at 150w each.

Up and running, the Kill A Watt says one channel uses about 164 watts, so about 328 watts drawn for a 300 watt lighting system.

YMMV, of course.

-Matt

[mysterybox]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14448001#post14448001 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Jk5
To mysterybox...

90% vodka 10% vinegar are good to lighten and reducing zooxanthelas coral...

Glucose is better than sugar for giving colour contrast and feeding ...

the last recipe working our friend Genetics...




Vodka - 90% 900mL

Vinegar - 10% 100mL (higher levels lead to macro die-off, much like you mentioned in your testing) I haven't figured this out in ppm yet as this would be the most useful number.

6tblspn sugar - Better results using glucose/dextrose, and you can increase glucose levels further by 2x or more to get pastel colors. Table sugar will actually darken your corals and is why you should use less.

Vitamin C - You can add quite a bit. A 1/4tsp for 200g is more than enough daily unless treating a specific infection. And you may want to add this to prepared food instead of VSVcV formula.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
End of the recipe...


If you use too Iron from Kent Marine (containing Iron, manganese, zinc, potassium).

You have a home made ULNS system...

You might add zeolithes stones withouth reactor in a hang filter ( each week adding a little amount until 800 grs-100 gallons, flow 200-300 L/h)

and then you have a very cheap DIY ultra low nutrients system.


where do I get pure glucose? grocery store? & can I mix all that together and store for a period of time?
Ralph

sorry for the hijack Randy!

[Jk5]

I´m sorry mysterybox but I dont know it... how many amount of glucose?
Send mp to Genetics, he is an advanced in this products.
and after you send mp to me, and tell me it...

[mysterybox]

gotcha

[tmz]

Randy, I may have missed it but are you running ozone during the carbon dosing?I assume you are not but just wanted to check since I am considering it.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Yes, I've been using ozone for a number of years now. :)

[ksed]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14397720#post14397720 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Jk5
spamreefnew...
Yes, it is false if you got nitrates 0 and cut, you keep nitrate 0...
dosage must be continued.

It´s not false when people say you cut at half...
Usually it means you will keep nitrates 5.

I think nitrates 0 is not better than nitrates 2-5.

Denitrification proces and carbon sources might inhibit the nitrification process...
this is an enzimatic inhibition...
what happens when there are a strong inhibition of nitrification proces?
Well, you have not nitrates but you have another nitrogen compounds in your tank...
http://translate.google.es/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.naclu2.com%2Findex.php%3Foption%3Dcom_content%26view%3Darticle%26id%3D1 6%3Ael-proceso-de-desnitrificaion-metodo-vodka-y-otras-locuras%26catid%3D4%3Anumero-2&sl=es&tl=en&hl=es&ie=UTF-8



Randy, I think you are dosing a lot...





I think dosage must be marked by nitrate read when you arrive to nitrates 2-5.



But
dont dose more than 1 ml/100 liters each day...
that must be the max amount daily.

12 ml must be your max amount.

JK5

Just wondering why you are carbon dosing if the post says you should not. You should have it in a separte chamber.

Thanks
Kevin

[Jk5]

Ok ksed...

My mother says me: be a good boy...
and I´m a bad boy he he he he.

I only try to understand all the process...
with science literature against dosing carbon into the tank too...
http://translate.google.es/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.naclu2.com%2Findex.php%3Foption%3Dcom_content%26view%3Darticle%26id%3D1 6%3Ael-proceso-de-desnitrificaion-metodo-vodka-y-otras-locuras%26catid%3D4%3Anumero-2&sl=es&tl=en&hl=es&ie=UTF-8

[tmz]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14448601#post14448601 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Randy Holmes-Farley
Yes, I've been using ozone for a number of years now. :) :) Thanks for the reply. I knew you had been dosing it and have referenced your articles on it several times. Just didn't know if you were continuing it when carbon dosing in view of the orp drops you noted. Do you also use GAC and do you think the combination of those two give you a leg up on TOC issues that may arise?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I do use GAC in a Magnum cannister filter, as well as in the ozone reactor effluent filter. :)

[racingrich]

Do I have this correct when everyone is saying how much in ml. that they are using is this ex. 0.8 ml. or 8ml. ?
My first week I did 0.5 ml. for around 120 gal. of water and now for the 2nd. week 0.9 ml. Is this ok and can I start vinegar now?
Thanks Rich

[scaryperson27]

Randy,

Why didn't you do a Nitrate test? You weren't interested in your starting point as far as nutrients go?

I would keep track of your nitrates considering this form of nutrient export is considered to be very powerful by many. Do you know how much Vodka you would have to dose in order to match the nutrient export of the refugia?

This would be interesting to find out.

[jdg]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14694226#post14694226 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by scaryperson27
Randy,

Why didn't you do a Nitrate test? You weren't interested in your starting point as far as nutrients go?

I would keep track of your nitrates considering this form of nutrient export is considered to be very powerful by many. Do you know how much Vodka you would have to dose in order to match the nutrient export of the refugia?

This would be interesting to find out.

That would be very interesting to find out indeed ... but we would need to somehow measure the mass of the refugia, no?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Why didn't you do a Nitrate test? You weren't interested in your starting point as far as nutrients go?

Not really. Assuming it was zero, what would that tell me? I'm not trying to reduce anything, I'm just trying to keep things where they are at lower cost than all the refugia. :)

Most people going this route are trying to reduce existing nutrients. That is not my goal. :)

In general, I also have fairly little confidence in nitrate testing kits.

[scaryperson27]

from a lab perspective, is there a good way to test for nitrates?

[scaryperson27]

jdg, more like the mass of the DOC occurring in the tank along with the Nutrient Import(?), and the end result of the nutrients.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

There are many good lab tests for nitrate, but I'm not sure which work best in seawater. Things like ion chromatography. :)

[LISound]

Randy,

hows the system doing? any difference?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

About the same so far. The dose of vodka has been changed a few times peaking at about 45 mL per day, then folks scared me and I stopped for a while, and restarted at 5 ml per day, but I'm slowly raising it again, now at about 5-10 mL per day.

At the lower doses, one little SPS I have which has blue tips when nutrients are low, became tan/brown during the stopped dosing portion and has not blued up again yet. So i think the dosing may need to be a bit higher. :)

[LISound]

are you showing any PO4 in the system yet?

[Tony Romano]

My skimming is a very dark green, not tar black. Does this mean i am dosing too low? NO3 is going down slowly, very slow.

[HighlandReefer]

IMHO, the color of the material in your skimming collection club will reflect an assortment of the organics floating in your tank water.

An example might be green for the algae it collects. Many bacteria that will increase in population from dosing a carbon source might appear brown.

As long as your nitrates are dropping I would not increase the amount you dose more than what is being recommend in Genetics article. If you dose too much, you may end up with bacterial blooms. I have found that when dosing carbon sources, that my nitrates dropped less than 1 ppm per day. :)

[racingrich]

Randy are you doing 0.5 - 0.10 ml or 5 - 10 ml

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

5-10 mL. :)

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

are you showing any PO4 in the system yet?

I don't routinely measure it, but I suppose I might sometime. I at least have a kit for that that I trust. :D

[racingrich]

Randy is that crazy high?? maybe I can do more right now I am doing 0.9ml with 80 proof for about 120 gal.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Not as crazy high as the 45 mL I was dosing for weeks with no problem. :D

That said, this is a 300+ gallon system with multiple export methods going on. I'm not going to advise anyone to follow suit, but I just do not see any of the problems that others seem to note in their systems, or which folks worry a lot about.

There is more discussion here:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1575229

[racingrich]

I have been fighting nuisance alga for a very long time and now it is starting to go away with vodka dosing. What I would like to know is what is the best mix for killing algae like 90% vodka 10 % vinegar or sugar.
Thanks Rich

[Genetics]

racingrich, vodka should be able to outcompete the algae. However, if you have an itching to try to get a bit more from dosing I would try adding some vinegar to the mix. My macro seemed to stall and turn white when using the two in combination and 10% of a 5% white vinegar solution should be good.

[racingrich]

I just love that there is a way to control algae with out using chemicals my algae is turning brown on the ends and going away slowly. How much of each do you think that I could dose. I have about 120 gal. of water and I am at 0.9ml vodka 80 proof, Sunday will be 3 weeks.

[scaryperson27]

If the Macro algae stopped growing, wouldn't that inhibit the growth of Zooxanthellae?

Randy,
What kind of a protein skimmer are you using? I may have missed that.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

It is an ETS 800 Gemini run with an Iwaki 55RLT pump. I try to wet skim out about 3 gallons per day to match my 1% daily automatic water change. :)

I just love that there is a way to control algae with out using chemicals

You're using the special ethanol that is not a chemical? :D

[Genetics]

racingrich, I would just work the 10% vinegar into the mix now. So 0.9mL vodka you need to add 0.09mL vinegar. You may want to make a mix and try it for a few weeks.

Randy, you're not using the special ethanol? ;)

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Maybe that's why I've needed so much? :o

[jdg]

:lol:

[Tony Romano]

Does dosing tend to drive pH down?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Yes, adding an organic carbon source to drive bacteria produces CO2, which will tend to reduce pH. :)

[redfishsc]

I think they sell non-alcoholic ethanol. It's on the same aisle with board stretchers.


Randy, I may have missed this, but are you removing the fuges entirely, or are you leaving them intact but simply pulling the lights?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

No, I've not removed the containers. One is still filled with macroalgae and lit with a 175 w mh.

One is filled with live rock now. It is dark. One is completely empty except for a heater, and one still has some fish/macroalgae/E.quads/live rock/dsb and is still lit.

[LISound]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14705972#post14705972 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Randy Holmes-Farley
No, I've not removed the containers. One is still filled with macroalgae and lit with a 175 w mh.

One is filled with live rock now. It is dark. One is completely empty except for a heater, and one still has some fish/macroalgae/E.quads/live rock/dsb and is still lit.


But your ultimate goal was to reduce power consumption with all your fuges, right?
Do you still plan to take the last one off line?

I thought you needed PO4 and nitrate to make the carbon dosing work like it's supposed to?

[Tony Romano]

I have a shelf stretcher, got it in 1974, had to go to every shoe store in mall to find it!

would running a small air pump outside to airstone in sump raise pH? Our house is tight and we have a pack of 4 legged kids. I am also pondering 1" pvc with pc fan forcing ourside air into cap.

I think i maybe spending too much time on this.........

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I thought you needed PO4 and nitrate to make the carbon dosing work like it's supposed to?

There should be plenty of nitrogen and phosphorus from my daily feedings. :)


But your ultimate goal was to reduce power consumption with all your fuges, right?
Do you still plan to take the last one off line?

I've already cut down 200+ watts of 24/7 lighting, so that's a big savings. I'll proceed carefully on whether to remove the last one when i see how much it continues to grow, etc.

[Reefer08]

Randy do you have any pictures of your previous refugium before you turned off the lights? Id love to see why you needed 450w for a refugium :)

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I don't have any photos of them all, but remember they were large (each 2-3 feet on a side) and there are 4 of them, and I've clearly seen the best growth in the most brightly lit ones, and in the most brightly lit parts of them.

They are also competing with bright lights in my main tank (the brightest 250 w DE MH driven by an HQI ballast) plus other, smaller lights. I slowly worked up to this number, size and lighting of the refugia over many years.

[HighlandReefer]

Randy,

How is the tank dosing coming along?

[Genetics]

Randy, it is about time for an update. What is your prognosis on the whole vodka dosing? Do you find that it is saving the money you wanted it to or has it caused unexpected expenditures?

Side Note. Your no longer in the 65535 club...

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I was assured that the club membership was a lifetime thing. :D

The tank got a lot of ignoring as I was away a lot of the summer, but aside from a limewater overdose due to stupidity, everything is going pretty well. The only problems continue to be cyano and aiptasia, which are basically unchanged from before the modifications.

I recently completed altering the system even more, getting rid of ALL exposed water surfaces in the basement to eliminate humidity and risks from mold. I even have an exhaust fan sucking air out of each closed container there, effectively putting each one under slight negative pressure.

I'm still dosing substantial vodka and/or vinegar (maybe 20-25 ml of vodka OR ~ 100-150 ml of vinegar every day) to the system that is probably about 250-300 gallons total now.

I now have two refugia made from 44 gallon Brute cans, with a big round hole cut in the top of each and covered with glass to let the 175 w mh light into each one but not let any moisture out.

It's hard to gauge the cost savings, but I certainly have a lot less watts of lighting now. I also think the heaters will run a lot less with less evaporation and exposure from the basement tanks/refugia/etc.

So far, I'm happy with the changes. :)

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Update.

I'm happy with the carbon dosing. I've shifted to more and more vinegar and less vodka over time because I think it helps keep a lid on cyano. I'm presently adding 270 mL of vinegar and 5 mL of vodka a day, saturated with calcium hydroxide, with a slow dosing pump over 11 hours.


A lot of the bacteria grows on the GAC in my cannister filter. I periodically clean it or else it clogs up.

No sign of any bacteria in the display tank, or anywhere else problematic.

I still have some lit refugia, each with a fish or two and some macroalgae. But less total wattage than before (3 x 175 w mh).

I'm also happy with the covered refugia and sumps. It is still not summer to know for sure, but the basement humidity is a lot lower.

I recently tried adding a bit of vitamin C with poor results, so i won't be doign that again:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1802009

[Elliott]

since doing carbon have you had more skimmate and more frequent skimmer cup cleanings required?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Yes, the skimmer neck gets dirty far faster.

I don't keep track of skimmate volume itself as it is pumped down a drain.

[mhaith]

Update.

I'm happy with the carbon dosing. I've shifted to more and more vinegar and less vodka over time because I think it helps keep a lid on cyano. I'm presently adding 270 mL of vinegar and 5 mL of vodka a day, saturated with calcium hydroxide, with a slow dosing pump over 11 hours.



Randy, why do you think the vinegar inhibits cyano growth versus vodka?

[NaClH2Opgh]

Randy,

I'm happy with the carbon dosing. I've shifted to more and more vinegar and less vodka over time because I think it helps keep a lid on cyano. I'm presently adding 270 mL of vinegar and 5 mL of vodka a day, saturated with calcium hydroxide, with a slow dosing pump over 11 hours.

I may try going from 100% vodka to 90/10 vodka vinegar. I am getting a little cyano but only on my frag racks and return nozzle.

A lot of the bacteria grows on the GAC in my cannister filter. I periodically clean it or else it clogs up.

I get the same thing in my reactor. I now only run it one week out of four. At the end of the one week I break it down and rinse and leave it offline for 3 weeks

No sign of any bacteria in the display tank, or anywhere else problematic.

+1 I have never had any issues with bacteria build up in DT. Do you think this could have to do with cuc and various worms and pods? Nothing can settle on my sand or rocks without the spaghetti worms coming out and grabbing it immediately. I do have the bacteria build up in the skimmer section of my sump. I have nothing in my sump but a skimmer, return pump and utility pump for reactor. I have no macro, fuge, sand anything else.

[tonyespinoza]

Randy, what is your current total system volume? Do you plan to eliminte more refugia?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Randy, why do you think the vinegar inhibits cyano growth versus vodka?

My guess is that the particular cyano species that I have may be a little less able to take up acetate, relative to the other bacteria and other organisms in the tank.

Acetate may just be metabolized faster than ethanol by some of the tank creatures, so is less available to cyano.

I was surprised as we recently dug further into the literatre of acetate in natural systems (in another thread) how fast and widespread it consumption is. For example:

Acetate cycling in the water column of the Cariaco Basin: seasonal and vertical variability and implication for carbon cycling. Ho, Tung-Yuan; Scranton, Mary I.; Taylor, Gordon T.; Varela, Ramon; Thunell, Robert C.; Muller-Karger, Frank. Marine Sciences Research Center, State University of New York at Stony Brook, Stony Brook, NY, USA. Limnology and Oceanography (2002), 47(4), 1119-1128. Publisher: American Society of Limnology and Oceanography,
Abstract

Acetate oxidn. frequently has been used as proxy of org. carbon decompn. in marine anoxic sediments. However, the importance of acetate uptake in carbon cycling in marine anoxic water columns is less well studied. Acetate concns. and uptake rate consts., together with total bacterial nos., primary and chemoautotrophic prodn. rates, and particulate org. carbon (POC) fluxes, were measured in the water column of the Cariaco Basin during upwelling and nonupwelling seasons between Nov. 1995 and May 1999 as part of the international CARIACO (Carbon Retention In A Colored Ocean) program. Acetate uptake was found to vary strongly with depth and season. Zones of elevated acetate uptake were found in the surface waters and near the suboxic/anoxic interface. High acetate uptake in the surface oxic layer suggests that acetate cycling may be an important component of org. carbon oxidn. in oxic environments as well as under anoxic conditions. Depth-integrated acetate uptake rates were correlated with the rates of org. carbon supply in the two zones (r2 = 0.37, P = 0.017). Comparisons of acetate oxidn. rates with rates of primary prodn., chemoautotrophic prodn., and POC flux show that, on av., acetate oxidn. can account for respiration of between 16 and 46% of the org. carbon fixed in the water column.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

A lot of the bacteria grows on the GAC in my cannister filter. I periodically clean it or else it clogs up.

I get the same thing in my reactor. I now only run it one week out of four. At the end of the one week I break it down and rinse and leave it offline for 3 weeks


Why?

Do you prefer the bacteria to grow elsewhere?

Do you think this could have to do with cuc and various worms and pods?

Maybe, but I've heard from folks where it coated the glass and other undesirable places.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Randy, what is your current total system volume? Do you plan to eliminate more refugia?


Total volume is maybe 200 gallons. Maybe 250.

120 display, and 5x44 gallon Brute cans maybe half full of water (3 refugia and 2 as a sump).

I have no plans to further change the refugia, but I may reduce the lighting in at least one of them. In fact, it is the one directly downstream from the carbon dosing, and it has the least macroalgae growth. At the moment, it has a frogspawn coral and only a bit of Caulerpa. Mostly a ton of rock (much of which is unlit since it is effectively shaded) and some microalgae growing on top of it.

[NaClH2Opgh]

A lot of the bacteria grows on the GAC in my cannister filter. I periodically clean it or else it clogs up.

I get the same thing in my reactor. I now only run it one week out of four. At the end of the one week I break it down and rinse and leave it offline for 3 weeks


Why?

Do you prefer the bacteria to grow elsewhere?

Do you think this could have to do with cuc and various worms and pods?

Maybe, but I've heard from folks where it coated the glass and other undesirable places.

I actually did it by accident. I took it offline to clean it and set it in the laundry room and forgot I never put it back online for a couple weeks. I didn't notice anymore bacteria in the DT or water clarity suffering and I had been getting bacteria in the skimmer compartment even with it running so I just started doing it that way.

[mysterybox]

Randy, I have a fellow reefer that is using AZ-NO3, but wants to switch to vinegar/sugar (cannot have vodka around house), any suggestions on % of each, amounts? or should he just go with vinegar?

Thanks!

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I'd just use vinegar and no sugar, or if you use any sugar, use a lot more vinegar than sugar.

IMO, sucrose is presumably rather unusual in seawater, while acetate is very commmon. :)

[NaClH2Opgh]

Randy,
If I start using vinegar with vodka can I mix a batch up to last a week or should I just dose separately? I wasn't sure if it would be ok to let it sit that long after I mixed them.

Thanks

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

You can mix them together (undiluted) and let them sit just fine. :)

[BradR]

My carbon dosing container is the biggest! 500cc a day of kalk saturated vinegar baby! Hrmm, maybe I'm overcompensating...
Anyway, some SPS frags are extremely pale, others look just perfect.
Dunno whats happening to the extra vinegar but between that and the GFO all hair algae is looking not too happy.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

What size tank? How long have you been dosing it?

[BradR]

About 500 gallons? Started dosing after you kindly answered the questions I had about a month or two ago. Nitrates started out at 20, built up current dose over a couple weeks or so then one day the glass got a little cloudy, the corals got really light, and nitrates were zero.
Feed about 8 cubes worth of mysis/krill a day.
8 anthias, 2 wrasses, 6 chromis, moorish idol, foxface, copperband, lawnmower blenny, 400# marco cured dead rock, 200# LR, barebottom, ~150 SPS frags, ~20 softies, BK300, aww heck I should just take a picture, will do later.

[Reefer08]

Randy we would love to see some pictures of your tank please! Thanks

[BradR]

You may be able to see how esp the plate montipora and the soli are much lighter than some of the other corals. Anyway, the dosages are still a work in progress.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Randy we would love to see some pictures of your tank please! Thanks

I haven't taken any recent ones, but this post earlier in this thread shows some older ones that gives the sense of it:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14223403&postcount=24

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

the corals got really light,

Which corals lightened? Just SPS?

[BradR]

On the second pic of post #169 you can see the SPS at 2, 4, 6, and 9 o'clock how they're somewhat bleached looking? Those montipora as well as some of the SPS frags got really light to where you could barely discern any pigmentation.
Others SPS frags paled minimally. Others SPS didn't really change much at all.
I noticed some SPS that had poor PE prior, had much improved PE after the drop in nitrate.
One Mia's pot of gold chalice now has skin looking kinda stretched over the skeleton somewhat but I'm still dosing to limit the hair algae.
The softies are looking just fine.

[Stuart60611]

I did this with great results. I used to both dose vodka and grow chaeto on top of the substantial rock in my refugium. The chaeto started to stop growing and then seemed like it was slowly melting away. I removed the chaeto, stoped lighting my refugium, but I kept the rock in the refugium. I then gradually increased the amount of vodka dosed. Now, my system has never run cleaner with no nuisance algae and very low to undectable nitrates, despite my heavy bioload, heavy feeding, and no clean up crew. I think that carbon dosing and growing macro algae in a refugium are kind of counterproductive. The carbon dosing removes nutrients from the system so that the macro algae cannot grow (or slowly dies) and take up nutrients. If you dose enough carbon, you in theory I think can create a low enough nutrient environment that you cannot sustain macro algae which I suggest may be the best environment to avoid nuisance algae blooms.

[Alex T.]

Actually Randy, I myself considered the same thing...removing my chaetomorpha in lieu of carbon dosing after a cyano breakout in my sump which fortunately never reached the display. I've already experimented on a few things. First, I stopped lighting my refugium...totally. Because I run a barebottom system, there is ample light penetration through the glass bottom in spots without coralline. Now, it's been a month and a half since I removed the chaeto completely and put it in a nano refugium I have with another system.

Before reading your vodka/vinegar combination I was solely dosing vodka. Because I have an sps dominated tank, limewater alone doesn't do the trick. I mix and drip 5 gallons of kalk per day with 50 ml. of vinegar and separately dose 5 ml. of vodka. This regimen has not changed since I removed the chaeto and I've found no parameters have suffered as a result of this switch. In fact, the cyano that used to cling to my chaeto is no longer anywhere to be found in the sump. I kept approximately 40 pounds of live rock in the sump in very little light and the pods are still flourishing. My rationale was that (like others) I wanted to do everything as natural as possible to simulate a real reef environment as closely as possible. What I've personally experienced and feel is that no matter how much we try, our glass boxes of water will never even come close to simulating the real thing. Unless we intervene (sometimes daily) the nature of a closed system is decline, not betterment. So, if I dose vodka and vinegar, add 100 times the flow rate of my tank, run a calcium reactor, drip kalk, bathe my sps with 1500 watts of light, run a bare bottom display and sump with GFO, GAC, and whatever else they come up with....I could care less if anyone thinks it's natural. As a reefer, I personally feel what draws one to this hobby is the sheer complexity and challenge in what we attempt to achieve. It's not for everybody. How do your guests feel when they see what makes your tank tick? When was the last time you looked at an electric bill and said, "Wow, that's not that bad at all!"

The goal to me is a natural looking, easy to maintain and uncluttered display with powerful and efficient filtration that is dependable and up to the task of heavy feeding, lots of light and lots of flow.

[redfishsc]

Well said, Alex. Much of what you said is my philosophy as well.

[casualreefer]

I started dosing vodka and had a major cyano outbreak. Randy should I switch to vineager or try and get the cyano under control first. Thanks and sorry to hijack but you have soooo much experiance I'd love to hear your opinion. Thanks!

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I don't know if switching to vinegar will help, but it is cheap and easy to try. :)

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I think that carbon dosing and growing macro algae in a refugium are kind of counterproductive. The carbon dosing removes nutrients from the system so that the macro algae cannot grow (or slowly dies) and take up nutrients.

I agree that you may eventual starve macroalgae, but I don't see how it is counterproductive unless it actually does die. FWIW, mine continues to grow in both the main tank and the refugium, albeit slower, but I use Caulerpa racemosa, and IME it is better at taking up nutrients at low levels than is Chaeto.

The fact that macroalgae grows and green algae still builds up on the glass tells me this is not an ULNS system, and despite what are now huge doses of organic, it seems there are plenty of nutrients available. I'm not sure why this happens when i dose so much more than others typically do, but in a sense it comforts me about the large doses, and I may continue to push them higher as I'd prefer the macroalgae (and bryopsis) to eventually stop growing.

[tmz]

I use a mix of methods and regular testing for PO4 and NO3. PO4 hovers around 0.05 ppm and NO3 at 2.5ppm.
These levels have held relatively constant even with relatively heavy feeding of the 35 fish in the system over the course of 14 months of carbon dosing . The dose totals about .5 ml vodka or equivalent vinegar per 10 gallons of water volume( currently 24 ml 40% vodka and 60 mls vinegar for 550 gallons of water volume / roughly a 75% vodka vinegar mix in terms of the organics involved). Increasing the vodka to this 25% proportion from an earlier 3 to 4 % proportion did limit cyano to near nil.

Carbon dosing along with chaeto refugia an unlighted remote sand bed stacked with extra live rock on top as well as ulighted mounds of live rock elsewhere in the system have resulted in good health for a variety of corals including sps, lps, leathers, gorgonia ,xenia and anemones as well as a few non photosynthetics and almost no nuisance algae .

GFO is also used at moderately low levels of about .1 gram per gallon with monthly changes.

The chaeto grows albeit more slowly than before in a bare bottom bin but it still grows on opposite photo period , contributing to nightime oxygen levels and providing a bit of habitat habitat for pods and such.

Heavy skimming and granulated activated carbon are the mainstays for removing organic carbon and are critical in my opinion particularly when adding extra organic carbon sources such as vodka or vinegar..

[tmz]

Correcton Gfo is used at 1 gram per gallon; not .1 gram. Sorry for the typo.

[onetrickpony]

Randy, on your carbon dosing you mentioned the your GAC in your magnum filter becomes clogged often with bacteria

How do you think bacteria is effecting the GAC adsorption abilities

if the GAC is acting as a media to house bacteria, do you think there would be other filtering media that would work better considering cost, surface area and non clogging for bacteria growth.

I was thinking of seachem’s pond matrix (claims to supports of nitrifying and denitrifying bacteria) to be used as a filter reactor for carbon dosing.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I expect it does restrict the capability of the GAC to remove organics. I replace it every once in a while for that reason. Monthly, maybe. :)

I'm not sure what you mean by nonclogging. There is so much bacteria that any particles of similar size with a similar coating of bacteria will clog, I think.

[HighlandReefer]

Do you believe there would be any merit in having a larger filter of some sort with lots of old GAC to provide more space for bacteria to grow? :)

[Stuart60611]

I think that carbon dosing and growing macro algae in a refugium are kind of counterproductive. The carbon dosing removes nutrients from the system so that the macro algae cannot grow (or slowly dies) and take up nutrients.

I agree that you may eventual starve macroalgae, but I don't see how it is counterproductive unless it actually does die. FWIW, mine continues to grow in both the main tank and the refugium, albeit slower, but I use Caulerpa racemosa, and IME it is better at taking up nutrients at low levels than is Chaeto.

The fact that macroalgae grows and green algae still builds up on the glass tells me this is not an ULNS system, and despite what are now huge doses of organic, it seems there are plenty of nutrients available. I'm not sure why this happens when i dose so much more than others typically do, but in a sense it comforts me about the large doses, and I may continue to push them higher as I'd prefer the macroalgae (and bryopsis) to eventually stop growing.

Well, what I have found is that once I reached a certain level of carbon dosing in my system the chaeto stoped growing and in fact very slowly began melting away releasing nutrients back in to the system which is certainly counterproductive. When the chaeto in my system was in this slow semi-dying state it also seemed to accumulate more detrus than usual, thereby making it further become a nutrient creator. Now, at this time, I still had higher nitrates than I otherwise wanted and some nuisance algae. What I wanted to do in response was increase my carbon dosing, but I really could not do so because my chaeto would have died even faster and release more nurtients in the system. Therefore, the chaeto was actually counterproductive because it became a nutrient creator and placed limitations on how high I could carbon dose. I removed the chaeto and then was able to increase my carbon dosing. Now, nitrates are under control and nuisance algae is no longer a problem. I continue to carbon dose at higher levels than when I had the chaeto in the system. Although I never tried, I would suspect that if I tried to re-add the chaeto to my system I could no longer maintain it. I am able to maintain a lower nutrient state because my carbon dosing is not limited by the chaeto's nutrient requirements and thus making the macro algae counterproductive at least in my situation.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Do you believe there would be any merit in having a larger filter of some sort with lots of old GAC to provide more space for bacteria to grow?

Could be, yes. :)

I reached a certain level of carbon dosing in my system the chaeto stoped growing and in fact very slowly began melting away

I understand. If mine gets there, I'd probably remove the dying macroalgae too, although even if all my macroalgae dies and released nutrients, I'm not sure it would be a big deal, relative to the amount I feed every day anyway. :)

[Genetics]

Do you believe there would be any merit in having a larger filter of some sort with lots of old GAC to provide more space for bacteria to grow? :)

Very possible. On some BB systems that dose they cannot seemingly get reduction until they add more surface area. This would be effective at doing so.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The saga continues here, with the doses eventually ramped up too high (400+ mL vinegar per day), requiring me to back down (now about 44 ml per day). :)

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1813810

[tmz]

Randy,
What led you to conclude it was too high?
I'm still at 26ml vodka and 60ml vinegar for 550gallons going on about 14 months , equivalent to about 270ml vinegar;it's about half of your 400ml or about 3.5x your current 44ml.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Check the link for details. RBTA anemones turned much browner and no longer expanded, cyano got much worse, an H. crispa shrank, green algae got worse, water was cloudy. Generally bad. . :D

[tmz]

Oops , I missed the thread link. I see why you concluded it was too high. I had some browning on rbtas and lobophylia and when I used some sugar; none with the current dose of vodka/ vinegar mix. Virtually no cyano, derbasia, or bryopsis either. I do run gfo but it seems to last and last , up to two months on the current 700grams on the 550galolns. Cleaning up some detritus buildup and dirty sand beds along the way helped.