Min amount of LR for 180G FO

[ziyaadb]

HI all

Please help :confused: whats the minimum amount of Live rock that 1 would need to have in a 180G tank. I will be getting a skimmer that is rated for a 400G tank run a Refugium as well as a DSB. Would be looking at getting a Clown Trigger fish, Angel, Dwarf angel, Butterfly and maybe a pair of Maroon Clowns just to give an idea of the stocking that i would want maybe change the list but fish of those sizes (will be purchased small)

Kind regards
Ziyaad

[karaim]

As much as possible to help witht he bioload, but not too much to give fish room to swim.

I'd do about 200-250 pounds.

[ziyaadb]

EEK:eek2: that much? That amount of LR will cost me more then the tank and all equipment. :confused:

[MrTuskfish]

From looking at all your plans; I'm guessing that you're very concerned about nitrates. Nitrates in a FOWLR are no big deal. I have never seen any real study; but nitrates at, say 60ppm, won't hurt fish. With a clown trigger, you won't have inverts to worry about anyway. If you are going to use any filter; such as a canister, wet-dry, bio-ball, etc., ammonia and nitrite will be fine and regular water changes will keep nitrate at a reasonable level. You can then add LR, a little at a time, as your budget permits. IMO; the DSB and refugium are fine; but more of a reef tank set up; where nitrate control is vital.

[ziyaadb]

Thanks MrTuskFish. The reason behind the DSB and Refugium is for Nitrates correct, but is that not the reason for liverock as well? Also whats an acceptable level in a FO tank for Nitrates. Ideally zero But Max level?

[DamnPepShrimp]

I think you'll be ok with under 200lbs, atleast in the display tank. I will have about 1lb a gallon in my 210, but only about 160lbs in the display, rest in the sump/fuge.

[anbosu]

The one thing to keep in mind is live rock provides shelter for a lot of food sources for dwarf angels and other smaller fish. They pretty much constantly pick at the live rock.

By the way, if you look around you should be able to get rock from someone tearing down a tank or find cured fiji live rock for about $3 a pound.

[ziyaadb]

anbosu lets say i skip the angels and get fish that i can feed what are my options then?

erm i am a resident of Beautiful South Africa. and when tanks do get torn down its few and far between as its not a very big hobby in this part of the world.

[karaim]

Live Rock is good for ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate control. It also looks good, provides hiding places for your fish, and provides a natural food source (ex: algae that grows on it).

MrTuskFish is right, you can have nitrate/ammonia control with a cannister filter or bioballs, or what have you, but this will not provide the other benefits of live rock (nitrate control, hiding places, food source).

As far as Nitrates, some fish are more sensitive than others, but I believe anything over 40 ppm could pose a danger in the LONG run. Again, no real studies, but the ocean has almost zero nitrates, so nitrates at any level cannot be good. Whether they hurt or not has yet to be proven, IMO.

Perhaps my initial estimate (200-250 pounds) was high, but that's because personally, I love live rock. You should be OK with about 1 pound per gallon (like DamnPepShrimp said). You also don't have to buy all live rock and all at once. You can start with say 40 pounds of live rock and 40 pounds of dry rock, and add more later.

[danorth]

I have about 150 lbs in my 240 and love it. Tons of open room in front of the rock, a whole alley behind the rock, and above it. No issues with ammonia or nitrite. Nitrate though is high, roughly 80 this past weekend after extensive water changing.

Perhaps new rock is better than old....but isn't it all old live rock? Anyways, I don't know how much live rock helps to reduce nitrate, but the amount you can fit in a standard fish tank isn't gonig to reduce nitrate enough to make it worth the $$$.

Here is a shot of my old 135 with about 200+ lbs of rock in it.

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j203/danorth/P1010377-1.jpg

[MrTuskfish]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14217015#post14217015 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by karaim
Live Rock is good for ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate control. It also looks good, provides hiding places for your fish, and provides a natural food source (ex: algae that grows on it).

MrTuskFish is right, you can have nitrate/ammonia control with a cannister filter or bioballs, or what have you, but this will not provide the other benefits of live rock (nitrate control, hiding places, food source).

As far as Nitrates, some fish are more sensitive than others, but I believe anything over 40 ppm could pose a danger in the LONG run. Again, no real studies, but the ocean has almost zero nitrates, so nitrates at any level cannot be good. Whether they hurt or not has yet to be proven, IMO.

Perhaps my initial estimate (200-250 pounds) was high, but that's because personally, I love live rock. You should be OK with about 1 pound per gallon (like DamnPepShrimp said). You also don't have to buy all live rock and all at once. You can start with say 40 pounds of live rock and 40 pounds of dry rock, and add more later.
I agree that LR is wonderful stuff; for all, the reasons you mentioned. I suspect that it may do some things that we haven't even discovered yet. Regarding nitrates; of course, the lower the better. Common sense says nitrates should be a problem. But, with the growth of this hobby, if nitrates were a problem to fish at (pick a number); there would be studies saying so. IMO, its perfectly safe to get into this hobby on a budget without the worry about fish and nitrates.I saw a study mentioned recently about the long-term effects of clove oil anesthetic on fish; if someone discovers that; we'd sure know about nitrates---if they really were a problem.Bob Fenner says in his first "The Conscience Marine Aquarist" that fish have been kept with nitrates in the hundreds, even thousands of ppm---with no ill effect. He does say, of course, the lower the better. Again, IMO, I just don't think the new hobbiest needs to spend the money on all the reef tank goodies just to keep only fish. Its nice if you can; but not necessary. The addiction of this hobby will take all your money anyhow. BTW, if you can get some limestone, you can grow your own LR over time. LR is limestone that is still in the ocean. Ammonia and nitrite are easy to control with any filter media.
I don't like to use my own experience as a "rule"; but before Katrina got my tanks; I had many fish close to 10 years old; with nitrates so high that I'd get stoned to death just for posting the level. Nitrates in 3 0f my 4 tanks now (the 4th is a reef) have nitrates over 60ppm and extremely healthy fish. I'm not advocating this, just sharing my experience in this area.

[ziyaadb]

Thanks Mr Tuskfish I feel much better now.

[anbosu]

I think if you skip the dwarf angels and other fish that habitually feed from live rock you don't have to have much if you don't want to. The fact that you will have a refugium and a big skimmer will help out with your water quality quite a bit. You can always slowly add the rock over time as you see good deals.

[ziyaadb]

Great stuff All. Really appreciate the help.

[MrTuskfish]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14217285#post14217285 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ziyaadb
Great stuff All. Really appreciate the help.
Could you send a few Krugerrands?:D

[kidako]

I have a 180 started with 50 lbs of LR,I think I added maybe 10 - 15 lbs, 120 lbs in crushed coral bottom. Myfish load now - 1pr blue throat triggers,1fox face tang,1 unicorn tang,1 miniata,1 leaflip

[flameangel88]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14217410#post14217410 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MrTuskfish
Could you send a few Krugerrands?:D

In that case I'm putting my 2 cents in. :lol:

I've a 180g and started out with about 175lb of LR and 100lb of LS. I added more LRs as I added more fish and had upto 260lb of LR which I found was way too much but I'd a very high bio-load. My tank is in the living room so no sump and no fuge due to concern of leak. I've started slowly moving some out to other tanks to get more swimming space.

In your case I would say you can start out with 100lbs (consisting of base rocks and deco rocks) then add more down the road. If you don't add too much at one time and give time for the system to establish you shouldn't have problem by adding later.

As for fish...I would watch out for the clown trig munching on the small fish for a meal.

[ziyaadb]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14217410#post14217410 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MrTuskfish
Could you send a few Krugerrands?:D

HHAHAHHA that would not be an issue if the Rand was not 10 to 1 to the dollar:D

[ziyaadb]

BTW thanks for the advice all