Overflow plumbing, stocking and sump questions

[hwttdz]

I've just ordered a 75 gallon tank to be delivered on Thursday of this week. I'm interested in knowing what sort of pvc bits I need in order to plumb the tank (it's an all glass aquarium, a specific parts list or even an explanation of how to do it would be great). I'm interested in having some flexibility in the plumbing if that's possible, i.e. I want to be able to take it apart later to rearrange if possible. Additionally, I have my current tank, a 37 gallon (36 x 12.5 x 19) and a 10 gallon tank. I don't believe the 10 gallon to be large enough for a sump (new skimmer is pretty huge), and I have worries about fitting the larger tank in the stand. How is a 20 long as a sump?

My current tank is inhabited by a pair of clownfish, a few snails and an urchin. I was wondering if there is a sticky that describes how to stock a tank? i.e. gives general rules. I have a good understanding of how much space each fish needs individually, and what fish are aggressive and whatnot, but I do not have a good grasp on how much space fish need when taken in combinations.

My current tank is overrun with hair algae despite "changing too much water" according to most lfs I speak with. I don't test much, I just assume I have high nitrates and phosphates because otherwise I would not expect the algae to grow like this. I've been using distilled water then RO from the get go, and additionally I feed very sparingly, generally no more often than every other day. I think a ctenochaetus tang might help to keep the algae in check, along with more snails. I am interested in many other fish, but I will have to wait to see how the hair algae progresses with the new skimmer and possibly a herbivorous fish first.

[sdfish]

i will just give you what i had in my 75 gallon and it set up to give you an idea of what you can do.

75 gallon all glass with 20 gallon sump
asm g2 skimmer
3 175 watt MH's 2 110 watt vho actinics
Quiet one 9000 return pump
5inch DSB in sump
120 pounds fiji live rock
maxima clam, 100's of mushroom's, 4 feather dusters, 2 pagoda cup coral's, flower pot, green star polyps,

3 cardinals, 2 yellow tangs, 3 stripe damsel, blue damsel, clarkii clown, large clean up crew, starfish

just an idea of what you can do.

also. magnavor maked a flexible overflow kit you can get through liveaquariu/dr fosters an smith

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578+10090+18447&pcatid=18447

[Carlton'sTank]

I can't really answer your sump question because I am in the same boat. I need to figure out all the details as well because I am getting ready to run my first sump, that is the main reason i jumped on this thread.

The stocking question is one of those things that you will get a variety of answers about. Basically you want to take into consideration the needs of the fish (space, food supply ie pod eater, aggressiveness) and what their bio-load would be something to take into consideration. I have always had smaller tanks, but I try to get a variety of livestock. I do not want all of my fish inhabiting the same spaces. I would go for what I call a sand-dwellers or something that generally stays on the bottom, some sort of fish that likes the rocks and then a fish that likes to swim in more open spaces.

The hair algae issue is definitely from a source of unwanted nutrients. I suggest testing the water you use for water changes first. Maybe beefing up your CUC (you could always go for something like a lawn mower blenny but only temporarily) and you can check lights

[sdfish]

as far as the mean grean goes.... get the nitrate and phosphate down and get a army of these little guys. should help some

http://www.liveaquaria.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=497+524+724&pcatid=724

[Avi]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14253437#post14253437 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hwttdz
I've just ordered a 75 gallon tank to be delivered on Thursday of this week. I'm interested in knowing what sort of pvc bits I need in order to plumb the tank (it's an all glass aquarium, a specific parts list or even an explanation of how to do it would be great). I'm interested in having some flexibility in the plumbing if that's possible, i.e. I want to be able to take it apart later to rearrange if possible. Additionally, I have my current tank, a 37 gallon (36 x 12.5 x 19) and a 10 gallon tank. I don't believe the 10 gallon to be large enough for a sump (new skimmer is pretty huge), and I have worries about fitting the larger tank in the stand. How is a 20 long as a sump?

I think that you'd be all right with a 20-gallon sump, but of course, the bigger the better. Available room inside the tank stand is frequently a limiting factor in the size of the sump so if that's all you can fit in there, then use a 20. As far as plumbing is concerned, there are countless ways of doing that. You ought to do a good deal of research regarding which configuration would be best for you before you commit to any particular method. Using PVC is a good measure but being ablt to "rearrange" isn't always possible because the PVC should be glued together for a number of reasons. Still, you can work with the PVC easily enough. Try starting your research at

www.melevsreef.com

You'll get some good info regarding sumps and configurations there.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14253437#post14253437 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hwttdz My current tank is overrun with hair algae despite "changing too much water" according to most lfs I speak with. I don't test much, I just assume I have high nitrates and phosphates because otherwise I would not expect the algae to grow like this. I've been using distilled water then RO from the get go, and additionally I feed very sparingly, generally no more often than every other day. I think a ctenochaetus tang might help to keep the algae in check, along with more snails. I am interested in many other fish, but I will have to wait to see how the hair algae progresses with the new skimmer and possibly a herbivorous fish first. [/B]

Well, changing "too much water" is not all that easy to do...though, I suppose you could be changing so much that your alkalinity is out of whack and that would foster unwanted algae growth. I'd suggest that you test more than you are from what you're saying...it's really important that you know what's going on in your water quality. You should definitely test regularly...and fairly frequently...for alkalinity and calcium and for nitrates, pH, etc., too. Putting a good quality skimmer on your system will in all likelihood be a big help, but the water quality is just as important and without testing, you really can't address the problem adequately to assure a better result than you're having now.

[sdfish]

here is one way to set up a sump. they are pretty simple once you break it down. just make sure your return pump line has a syphon break, and that your sump it set uf to hold the water returned when the power goes out

http://www.aquariumpros.com/images/illustrations/Typical2.jpg

[hwttdz]

I'm sure I can find a similar sort of flexible hose at a home depot/lowes type store. I was wondering what size the overflows were and whatnot.

So you suggest a 20 gallon long sump then?

Sounds like you had two larger fish then, i.e. 2 yellow tang. I might go for:

ctenochaetus & zebrasoma
or
ctenochaetus & acanthurus (tompsonii or coeruleus) though with the latter my tank is too small to hold it indefinitely so depending on how long I am at my current location (or have enough sanity to understand that all I can fit is a 4' tank) I would likely have to move it out after a time.
or
something & foxface

In addition to one or two large fish, I would be interested in a pigmy angel (potter or flame), a small goby or two, and a damsel (which I believe is one of the more peaceful, but I know little about because it is not popular), and a 6-line wrasse. Despite many of these being exceptionally small fish, it seems like an awful lot. I guess I'll just add one every other month or so and see how things settle in.

I'm going to have to both replenish my clean up crew and expand it. I think one hermit crab made lunch of many of the snails, and finally starved due to my skimpy feeding. I'll certainly try a lettuce nudibranch, I've also been told sea hares eat hair algae like it's their job.

I also plan on switching to actinic only lighting when I get a 4' fixture. I've been told this can help with algae. I will also add some chaeto either to the sump or the display. You would be amazed how hard it is to find in NYC, I caved and tried ordering some once, and it never really started growing after the shipping.

[hwttdz]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14253877#post14253877 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Avi
I'd suggest that you test more than you are from what you're saying...it's really important that you know what's going on in your water quality. You should definitely test regularly...and fairly frequently...for alkalinity and calcium and for nitrates, pH, etc., too. Putting a good quality skimmer on your system will in all likelihood be a big help, but the water quality is just as important and without testing, you really can't address the problem adequately to assure a better result than you're having now. [/B]

As far as I see testing wouldn't gain me anything. I know the water going in is good. And even if I have low levels, water changes are the suggested solution to algae growth. So I can either do water changes, or test ... and then do water changes. Additionally a large algal crop invalidates nitrate and phosphate tests because it uptakes the nutrients so quickly.

[Avi]

Well, you could take that approach, but IMO, it isn't a good one. While putting in fresh salt mix with your water changes will replenish a significant amount of calcium and trace elements, the coral, natural functions of the fish in the tank, etc. will deplete some all of the time. Alkalinity isn't as easy to maintain with water changes as you seem to understand...additives are important in that regard and you can't know how much additive unless you test. But, if you want to live on the edge...and make the tank hospitable to the algae that you seem to be fostering...your technique will work.

[hwttdz]

I can't seem to find any references citing the effect of alkalinity on microalgae, perhaps you could enlighten me? It seems that alkalinity and calcium only effect deposition of calcareous skeletons, given that I have no stony corals this has not been my priority.

Further complicating the issue I'm about to switch salt brands, my current bucket is out, and apparently my new brand uses borate which reacts in the alkalinity test giving false results. So confusing. It seems there's always a reason to not believe tests.

[Avi]

For one thing, if your alkalinity and calcium are not in balance, you will not get a good growth of coraline algae which would contribute in a number of ways to weakening the growth of unwanted adventitious microalgaes, of the kind that you seem to be culturing. Moreover, this is irrelevant to the kind of coral you might be keeping. The only way that you would adequately know if this balance in your water exists is to test. Pardon me but it seems to me strange that your resist water testing of such a fundamental kind. Beyond that, there seems to be an relevance of water chemistry and nuisance microalgaes, for example, if you look around these forums, you'd find that there may well be a relationship between magnesium levels and the growth of unwanted bryopsis. To the extent that your salt brand "uses borate," I was given to understand that you'd find that borate is an element that will (should) be present in traces, so I don't believe that it's a serious concern regarding alkalinity testing which is universal and that certainly should not discourage a reef-keeper from monitoring water quality even if there might be some miniscule and inconsequential blip in maintaining basic overall water standards.

[hwttdz]

It may be relevant and it may not be, I have seen no sources which think it is, so I continue to believe it is not. I continue to test occasional for compounds which are known to effect algal growth (nitrate, phosphate), however these results are not reliable because I have an algal growth. So, I do water changes for nitrate and phosphate independent of the test results (and in the absence of test results when I do not test).

By uses borate I meant it has a higher fraction as a buffering agent, and on that note. Users of seachem salt can obtain an accurate alkalinity value by subtracting 20% from their measured value.
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=883111 , see post by nbd13

It's not that I resist water testing. It's just that those parameters don't make any difference that I know of. The bryopsis effect of magnesium is explained http://www.reeffrontiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25498 , mg is an enzyme inhibitor and plants will uptake metals more quickly than polyps, so it kills off bryopsis. If I alkalinity or calcium or wearing red shirts would make a difference I'd jump in, until then I will prioritize things that are more likely to work, such as water changes, physically removing hair algae from the tank, and trying to make sure all food I add is eaten by my fish.

Also note that the green hair algae I refer to is not bryopsis but rather Derbesia (or at least according to my identification).

[jesseakruger]

flexible PVC is the way to go and is relativley easy to put together

[Avi]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14253944#post14253944 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hwttdz
As far as I see testing wouldn't gain me anything. I know the water going in is good. And even if I have low levels, water changes are the suggested solution to algae growth. So I can either do water changes, or test ... and then do water changes. Additionally a large algal crop invalidates nitrate and phosphate tests because it uptakes the nutrients so quickly.

I'll be happy to let you have the last word on this because you're so certain that you understand how to keep a reef contrary to time-proven experience of the literally thousands of reef-deepers in this...and other...forums. That, despite the fact that you have as you say. only some months' experience yourself AND and abundance of micro-algae. Much of what you say is quasi-fact and not necessarily fact at all. For example, when you say that "a large algal crop invalidates nitrate and phosphate tests because it uptakes the nutrients so quickly," that could be misleading. While a low phosphate reading can sometimes be misleading because the algae is using it as it proliferates, it's rare for that to be the case regarding nitrates. If you have a zero nitrate test reading, it's because you have no nitrates, not because your micro-algae garden has consumed it all. When I made the point of the relationship between bryopsis and magnesium, I didn't mean to suggest that it was other than what you said it is. I mentioned it only because you seem to (ironically) take a hyper-technical approach to what's going on in your water chemistry as an argument against testing and I was suggesting that knowing what your magnesium level is if bryopsis appears is a good thing, and testing is the only way I know of to know what your magnesium level is. That being said, you really ought to test your water's level of calcium, alkalinity, pH, nitrates and phosphates. Maybe then, you'd have the information you need so that you won't have to pluck the hair algae out by hand....good luck.

[jesseakruger]

plucking hair algae by hand is no fun.. Believe me.. Test Test Test and when everything seems to be hunky doory run another test to be sure..

[hwttdz]

In good news nitrate phosphate calcium and alkalinity are all great. pH is a little bit low (7.8). Of these only nitrate and phosphate should effect algae growth. I don't see what I'm supposed to do differently now that I know this information.

I second the picking hair algae by hand is no fun.

So with this newfound information (which is neither surprising nor utterly reliable as far as I'm concerned), what do you suggest I do? I test rarely because the results I get are always pretty much the same and I never really believe them, because if they were true and what people say about algae is also true, then I wouldn't have any!

specifics
NO3: 0-2.5 ppm (estimate, 1.2 ppm)
PO4: 0-0.1 ppm (estimate, 0.02-0.03)
pH: 7.8
Ca: 350
Alk: high-normal on red sea test, approx 2.6-2.7 meq/L

Also at least a few other people would not believe these results
http://saltaquarium.about.com/cs/algaecontrol/a/aa070403.htm

I'm sorry if you percieve me as being "hypertechnical", I am just looking for information that can help me, and I tend to ignore information that I perceive to be unrelated.

Finally it seems that adding a skimmer to the system will help with the low pH, by allowing the system to blow of a fair bit more CO2.