Does cyano really use phosphates?

[RRaider]

Since cyano is a bacteria and not an algae does it really use or need phosphates to grow?

[Boomer]

Any life form needs Phosphate to grow :)

[D to the P]

Yes, it does need it to grow.

[drinkredstripe]

Yes cyano bacteria need phosphate to grow, Many can actually grow without NH3 NO2 or NO3. Making phosphate one of there few vital nutrients.

[RRaider]

I think my point is being missed. Sure everything needs phosphates to grow, but can it really be wiped out by lowering phosphates like other algae's can? I guess theoretically if one could remove all phosphates everything would perish but that isn't what I'm talking about. Does cyano bacteria need more phosphates than other bacteria?

[RRaider]

Thanks drinkredstripe, that was what I was asking.

[drinkredstripe]

No problem but just for your info I had a cyano problem once and tons of water changes helped what are your nitrate levels? They might be too high. If so I would say they are to blame.

[RRaider]

I don't have a cyano problem. I was just wondering since it's not truely an algae.

[Flipper62]

May I add.....Cyano Bacteria has been traced back Billions of years ago. Cyano Bacteria has been found in billion year old fossils. its been said that it is the first sign of live on earth.

Cyano Bacteria is Not a Bad thing...or....A good thing....

Cyano Bacteria will only grow where there is a low water flow.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

but can it really be wiped out by lowering phosphates like other algae's can? I guess theoretically if one could remove all phosphates everything would perish but that isn't what I'm talking about. Does cyano bacteria need more phosphates than other bacteria?

Cyano can be a tough nut to crack. That said, I expect it can be reduced by reducing phosphate, assuming it cannot get the phosphorus it needs from organic sources. People do often see a decline when using sufficient GFO.

[toaster77]

yup every living thing needs phosphate to grow. There is a lot of phosphate in DNA, RNA.

The key factor is making phosphate somewhat limiting for growth, which will help keep those nuisance algaes/bacteria in-check.

[nismo_32]

i have read that it needs phosphates at its beginning stages but after there is enought starts becoming photosynthetic, also correct me if im wrong but isnt there two types of phosphates, inorganic phosphate and organic phosphate one which our test kits dont read so even when you think its gone there still the other type of phosphate. if any expert will chime in on the subject its an interesting one.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

isnt there two types of phosphates, inorganic phosphate and organic phosphate one which our test kits dont read so even when you think its gone there still the other type of phosphate. if any expert will chime in on the subject its an interesting one.

I did comment that cyano might be able to get phosphorus from organic forms, but that does not preclude cutting off the inorganic forms and being successful, which clearly does happen. :)

That said, skimming often helps with cyano, and whether that has anything to do with phosphorus availability, or just their ability to also use organics as a carbon source, I'm not sure.

Their ability to metabolize organic carbon like other bacteria (but not green algae) may also be why organic carbon dosing often does not eliminate cyano problems the way it eliminates green algae problems. :)

i have read that it needs phosphates at its beginning stages but after there is enought starts becoming photosynthetic,

Any growing tissue needs phosphorus, photosynthetic or not. It doesn't necessarily need phosphate to maintain levels of biomass, but if it is growing, it must be taking up phosphorus. :)

[D to the P]

yeah, what he said.

[billsreef]

What makes cyano so hard to control is the fact that it's not really an algae or a bacteria....it's both wrapped up into one very successful and prehistoric organism. It can photosynthesize like an algae, and consume organics just like a bacteria. Talk about adaptable :D So it's not just about controlling phosphates, but overall organic levels as well ;)

[toaster77]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14301319#post14301319 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by billsreef
What makes cyano so hard to control is the fact that it's not really an algae or a bacteria....it's both wrapped up into one very successful and prehistoric organism. It can photosynthesize like an algae, and consume organics just like a bacteria. Talk about adaptable :D So it's not just about controlling phosphates, but overall organic levels as well ;)

definitely agree, cyano have almost unique metabolic capabilities - they are indeed amongst the most ancient species on this planet and have figured out how to thrive under the most challenging of conditions :)

[tmz]

Cyanobacteria will reduce at low levels of organic phosphateand benefit from avaiable phosphate.
However, s I understand it ,it needs only CO2, water and light to survive. It can uniquely produce it's own poteins by fixing nitrogen from the athmosphere.It is ubiquitous on this planet(even the chloroplasts in zooxanthelae and plant roots are thought to be evolved from it) . it is often credited with allowing life on the planet ;not only as an enabler of photosynthesis but also because it can uniquely fix nitrogen into the food chain.

[mesocosm]

Greetings All !



If you enjoy living in an oxygen rich atmosphere ... thank a Cyanobacterium. :D



<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14294960#post14294960 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RRaider
Since cyano is a bacteria and not an algae does it really use or need phosphates to grow? Not only do cyanobacteria require phosphate for growth and reproduction, but it turns out elevated phosphate concentration in the water column of our aquaria can trigger cyanobacteria blooms. tmz's observation regarding P is insightful. For folks who are interested, here are a few extracts to ponder from the following article ...

Kevin G. Sellner (1997) Physiology, ecology, and toxic properties of marine cyanobacteria blooms. Limnol. Oceanogr., 45(5, part2), 1089-1104.

Full Article (pdf)
http://aslo.org/lo/toc/vol_42/issue_5_part_2/1089.pdf


Cyanobacteria blooms in marine waters are limited to only a few taxa with Trichodesmium, Richelia, Nodularia, and Aphanizomenon being most commonly observed.The following extracts are specific to Trichodesmium, but they may also be applicable to other cyanobacteria genera.


However, blooms generally require calm conditions ... phosphorus may enhancegrowth. In addition, iron is required for nitrogen fixation (nitrogenase and superoxide dismutase) - critical to growth and production in oligotrophic seas (see Capone et al. 1990; Rueter et al. 1990; Ohki et al. 1991; Paerl et al. 1994)."Blooms require calm conditions" ... little surprise then that increasing turbulent flow in aquaria is so effective in disrupting cyanobacterial colony growth. Also, folks experiencing cyanobacterial blooms while dosing proprietary products may wish to consider whether or not excess iron might also be a factor.


Carpenter and Price (1977) suggested that Trichodesmium abundances in the Caribbean Sea and the slope and Gulf Stream of the Sargasso Sea are higher than in the other areas of the North Atlantic because of elevated P concentrations derived from circulation through P-rich shallower water. ... Future research might focus on the role of P availability in bloom development and the elevation of new nitrogen input in oceanic regions that are normally N limited.Folks who believe that N limitation alone is the primary issue in remediation of cyanobacterial blooms might want to re-read the above quote. I suspect that folks who are addressing their cyanobacteria outbreaks by concentrating on N alone might get more rapid, positive results by widening their focus to include generating P limitation.


... little of the labeled organic material was taken up by the cyanobacterium (Paerl et al. 1989a).Folks speculating that carbon-dosing might be a trigger for cyanobacteria blooms might want to re-read the above quote again.


JMO ... ;)


Although not as important to bacteria in the nitrogen-limited oligotrophic oceans dominated by Trichodesmium, the release of DOC as potential substrates for the bacterioplankton is substantial. Release rates from 0 to 18% of daily carbon fixation have been reported ... .Yep ... cyanobacteria are releasing organic carbon (they're taking up inorganic carbon). The nearby bacteria are really happy that they are ...

Bacterial uptake of small organic compounds within the bacteria assemblage of colonial Trichodesmium has been demonstrated previously. ... These substrates likely support an active bacterial community in a mutualistic association between cyanobacteria and heterotrophic bacteria in the colonies, with cyanobacteria providing organic and physical substrates for the bacteria and heterotrophic bacteria providing anaerobic microzones and cofactors needed for nitrogenfixation and growth in the cyanobacteria (Paerl and Bebout 1988; Paerl et al. 1989a).Bear in mind that when we attack cyanobacterial blooms, we're also attacking an impressive diversity of associated microorganisms ...

Colonies are often associated with bacteria, other cyanobacteria, fungi, protozoans, several dinoflagellates, diatoms, harpacticoid copepods, and hydroids (Borstad and Borstad 1976; Geiselman 1977; Borstad and Brinckmann- Voss 1979).

... and biofilms characterized by a diverse collection of microorganisms are typically resistant to attack in that segments of the community typically survive. Ever notice how folks who've just successfully addressed their tank's cyanobacteria outbreak oftentimes report that a diatom or dinoflagellate bloom quickly emerges?



Microbial whack-a-mole ... isn't reefkeeping grand? :lol:




JMO ... HTH
:thumbsup:

[Sk8r]

It photosynthesizes AND crawls...what's not to love?

[HighlandReefer]

Mesocosm,

Thanks for the link and insight. :)

[tmz]

Mesocosm, Thanks for the link and insight. I am personaly awed by the the learning that can be had in this hobby. I marvel at primordial slime(aka cyano), paritcularly the way it completes the circle by recapturing nitrogen needed for life and that's not even considering it's role in oxygenating the planet.

Maybe we should culture large ponds of it to use up excess CO2 provide nitrogen for ferilizers and solve global warming but not in the reef tank.

[rollster]

My local Fish place told me to dose the tank with iron as indicated on the bottle in order to maintain the Calurpa healthy. I'vebeen doing this for a two months. Just yesterday I started treating my tank for Red Slime algae, it has spread all over and some coral do no open. All my water parameters seem right, so this problem has puzzle me. Until I read the below:

"Blooms require calm conditions" ... little surprise then that increasing turbulent flow in aquaria is so effective in disrupting cyanobacterial colony growth. Also, folks experiencing cyanobacterial blooms while dosing proprietary products may wish to consider whether or not excess iron might also be a factor."

so, I can blame the Iron for creating this mess?

[torhav]

I might be wrong, but this is what I believe is the case with cyano:

Cyanobacterias unique ability to fix nitrogen from the atmosphere makes them a perfect nitrogen source in waters where nitrogen is a limiting factor. As the algae takes nitrogen from the air and into the water, it becomes available for other organisms as phyto, and life can establish.

If nitrogen already is present, cyano can still bloom if there is large amounts of phosphate present. As algae needs large amounts of nitrate compared to phosphates to grow. The water will become nitrogen limited very quickly if there is no nitrogen source as cyanobacteria.

Several reports from sewage plants which is filtrating nitrogen, but not phosphate from the waste water claims that cyano blooms appear when outlet water contains high amounts of phosphate, and low amounts of nitrogen.

I have also read that cyano is not able to reproduce if phosphate levels are low relative to nitrate.

My own experience with cyano:
Some weeks ago I started dosing vodka. After a couple of weeks my sps showed signs of nitrate limitation. Some montiporas even lost some tissue.
I stopped dosing vodka and the corals slowly healed, but did not look healthy. At this point I did not know that it was low nitrogen that caused bleaching in my tank.
Soon after cyano bloomed. I knew from the days with my planted tank (freshwater) that dosing nitrates would help.
I had a bag of KNO3 laying around, and dosed 0.1ppm/day. My SPS showed signs of improvement, and I started to dose more, up to 1ppm each day. The following day I could not get any reading using saliferts NO3 test. My macroalgae sucked it all up, but did not remove enough phosphate. Cyano kept spreading, but not nearly as quick as before dosing KNO3.

To reduce phosphate I started using GFO. At the same time nitrate levels started to rise. I guess this is due to makroalgae not getting phosphate, and therefore not able to grow.
I stopped dosing KNO3 when my nitrate level reached 3-4ppm.

Today cyano is not spreading. I still have some small patces that I have missed with my siphon, but they do not get any bigger. It looks like if it is removed, it stays away.

[Boomer]

There is a nice table in Freshwater Microbiology: Biodiversity and Dynamic Interactions of Microorganisms in the Aquatic Environment by David Sigee ( best text ever written on the subject), which goes into increasing or decreasing N, P and CO2 levels. Shifts in CO2 seem to cause the greatest effects. Low CO2 can actually cause Cyano blooms as they can live better in low CO2 environments better than other algaes. This is used at times to control them in ponds/lakes, raising the pH to lower the CO2. Next in line is phosphate, then N. If there is little or no inorganic phosphate they can convert, extracellularly, organic phosphate to inorganic phosphate. A very large review with lots of info on just Cyano is......

Biology of the Cyanobacteria by Castenholz, R. W

[HighlandReefer]

Boomer,

If one were to raise the pH up say from 8.0 to 8.1, would there be any significant effect on cyano.

[Boomer]

No. One must remember that higher pH can have higher CO2 if the Alk is high. Meaning, at a pH of 8.3 there can be more CO2 than a pH of 8.1. Go here.

http://www.hamzasreef.com/Contents/Calculators/CO2Level.htm