Do u ever get the: "I don't believe in captive fish" comment???

[No Worries1979]

This is a little off subject but I had a friend of mine came over with his girl the other day and she said, "I don't believe in fish being in captivity". I was kind of shocked considering that we obviously put alot of time into our two reefs and enjoy the hard work and satisfaction of reefing. I responded by saying that we do everything we can to make sure our corals and animals have the healthiest life possible and they are technically safer considering they have no predators in a fish tank and aren't exposed to pollution and natural oceanic algae blooms. I guess she was more concerned with getting her opinion out than realizing that we do everything possible to make our animals "happy". I'm wondering if any of you have a similar, or more interesting story to tell. Please tell...

[chort55]

Don't feel bad, whenever I tell people my dog breed of choice is Pitbulls (I currently only have a pit/boxer mix now :( ), I get the OMG, THEY ARE KILLERS AND MEAN MEAN CREATURES speach lol. Atleast your fish probably aren't tagged as killers :p

[Sk8r]

I get that *feeling* only when I see a big fish in a too-small tank. A fish needs room to have a territory. If he has a proper territory (which is why I favor keeping little gobies and blennies in my 54g) he's as happy as a fish in his territory can be...unless you one day make a real mistake in adding an unresearched fish.

[Juruense]

No one has ever laid that guilt trip on me, no.

[WangoTANGo]

I hear it a lot when it comes to discussing tangs.

There is a line between just keeping pets for the sake of having them, and actually caring for and doing what's best for them.

-Justin

[Doahh]

Anyone who says that to a Hobbyist is probably involves with PETA and think that "Sea Kittens" are too hard to keep happy in captivity

[Shmax]

I think it's kind of funny getting that attitude from people. We (humans) use animals as one of our main food sources, we test growth hormones and medicines and God only knows what else to them. And that same girl probably ate one of those tested, domesticated, bred-for-dinner animals the same very day she laid that guilt trip on you about fish that have a MUCH better life than her lunch did. My .02

[jtreefdweller]

One problem I see with the hobby is that because there are so many species of fish and corals, people tend not to do enough research on specific fish and it leads to fish dieing or not being taken care of properly. Also I think people take lots of chances keeping certain species together, even knowing it might not work, but still taking a chance.

It is our job as the keeper of these "miniature reefs" to take care of the fish/inverts as best as possible, because they didn't ask to be here.

[mudskipper1]

One thing to keep in mind, is that within a relatively short period of time, most if not all reef fish and coral species will be dying out...due to Ocean acidification, warming, and other things. If we do not learn how to successfully care for and reproduce these species in captivity, before long...there wont be any on the planet...As Aldo Leopold said, if you want to fix something, you have to keep all the pieces. JMO (With Scientific Basis)

[Shmax]

One thing to keep in mind, is that within a relatively short period of time, most if not all reef fish and coral species will be dying out...due to Ocean acidification, warming, and other things. If we do not learn how to successfully care for and reproduce these species in captivity, before long...there wont be any on the planet...As Aldo Leopold said, if you want to fix something, you have to keep all the pieces. JMO (With Scientific Basis)

I absolutely mean no disrespect, and never mean to flame anyone on here, so please do not take this personally:

Global warming is the single most destructive hoax in the history of mankind. It flat out does not exist. Even scientists that touted it so brashly just a couple years ago now call it "climate change", because the planet IS NOT STEADILY WARMING, but they don't want to give up on the theory that we are changing our own climate.

The oceans are not going to be empty... until the final days of Earth's existance. The reefs, the plains, the mountains, the rivers... all are continually changing around the world and have been since the beginning of time. Why else would we find marine fossils in the Sahara desert, or on snowy peaks of mountains? Though our environment may be changing, and some critters may go to the wayside, other animals will fill that void. The thought that our tanks, or any captive program, will hold the only reefs in existance at any time in the future, is beyond silly to me.

[Shmax]

I just noticed you're in high school... it makes me wonder what they're pumping into the heads of our kids while they attend those indoctrination facilities....

[Juruense]

The above two opinions are from Ohio, take that into consideration...

//just sayin...

[Shmax]

Some of it is opinion. The FACT that temperature probes in over 150 points across the globe show a decline in ocean temperature over the last 5 years is not. Believe what you will I guess, but I guarantee you can find just as many "scientists" to refute global warming as you can find that support it, the only difference being those that refute it have proof.

[Juruense]

I absolutely mean no disrespect, and never mean to flame anyone on here, so please do not take this personally:

I see a lot of really stupid stuff posted on the internet by people from Ohio.

[chort55]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14304542#post14304542 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Shmax
I just noticed you're in high school... it makes me wonder what they're pumping into the heads of our kids while they attend those indoctrination facilities....

LOL... when I came home about 10 years ago and told my ma that in 20-30 years our climate would be like Florida's and theirs would be like ours she laughed and said wow they still haven't changed the time frame from when they were telling us that when I was in school 20+ years ago. And thats when I started sleeping through my classes LOL

[Shmax]

I've noticed that a lot of people, I won't dare group them by where they live, or their political, religious, or social ideas, are quick to chime in with their opinion, but shy away or change the subject once the facts come into the conversation. Of course, you have to take what I say with a grain of salt, I am after all, from Ohio. =)

[Juruense]

I am not going to debate global warming with you if that is what you are asking.

[Shmax]

Oh I had no expectations that you would, that's why I didn't ask you any questions. But to stay more inline with this thread, I think I will. Are you saying you DO think that at some point in our future we will be housing the world's only reef inhabitants?

[Natalie890]

Wow. . .intense. . . im in high school too but instead of being fed that all the animal species of the world are going to die nonsense i have done reading myself on "global warming" and evolution and i find myself agreeing with both sides. The earth has in fact warmed but i dont believe its due to human interference, the earth has been fluxuating in temperature for billions of years (yes science has determined the earth to be about 4 billion years old) and the warming is a natural process. Millions of species are arising constantly and also going extinct all the time as the environment changes, the only thing we should concern ourselves with is if we as humans are destroying their natural environments. Species evolve based on their environments and to say that all the fish will go extinct is ridiculous, maybe those species will go extinct but they will give rise to new fish adapted to this new environment.

[mudskipper1]

The information I stated above in no way, shape or form came from something I learned in school. I am the President of Venturing Crew 202, a coed part of Boy Scouts. This group is sponsored by the Maryland Department of Natural Resources. We have won several National awards for our education and service related to the environment. I have personally done extensive research on the issue, and have presented you with what the best science predicts. The IPCC (Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change) has made many predictions, including many related to marine ecosystems.


The term Global Warming was a Generalization coming from the Greenhouse Gas effect. The effects of the interruption of various cycles on our planet by climate change, whether influenced by man or not, are unpredictable. There will be areas which are warmer, areas which are colder, dryer, wetter, underwater (sea-level rise)...etc. The consequences just to biodiversity due to this, and many other impacts upon our environment, cause many researchers to predict that we will lose 25% of the species on Earth in the next 10 years. Now, I don’t know how old you are, and I don’t care, but I do know that I want something to be left for me and my kids, and their kids...I as a high-school student, and “young-person” have the Moral right to demand that our society make changes to try to change patterns which are leading to the loss of overall biodiversity on our planet. Biodiversity loss is another topic which little is known about as far as impacts. Scientists do know however that every organism plays a role, and beyond a certain point, more and more species will begin to go extinct. Yes, the Earth is constantly changing...and as a result of those changes, the species on the planet also change. We as Humans are no exception to that rule.

Even if man did not cause Climate change, the impacts of it have potential to decimate the Human race, and we have the opportunity to do something about that. I don’t know about you, but I have dedicated my life thus far to trying to change the world for the better, and I plan to continue to do so in the future.

There have been many cases in which Oil companies have been proven to be funding (with Billions of dollars) of scientists, which then distribute false scientific research to "cloud the waters" and make it seem like there is not a consensus among the scientific community.

The current species loss is occurring at a rate 10000 times greater than the background extinction rate, and is predicted to increase in the coming times...

An analogy I like using for this situation is that we do not make doctors show that you have had a heart attack in order to take measures against it happening. The doctor tells you that you are showing signs, and you have several potential risk factors. The issue of Climate change can be compared to this in that we are waiting and watching species die-off, while not taking action, because we don’t know the exact cause. We often do not realize in time, and we are to late in taking measures to stop the pattern. We trust doctors...even though the idea that High Cholesterol causes Heart attacks is after all a theory, not a fact, yet we don’t trust scientists which have shown vast amounts of data supporting their theory, that have shown that we need to make fundamental changes to our way of life, or we will pass a "tipping point" which occurs due to the cyclical nature of our planet's processes. We don’t trust them because it is just a "theory"...well anything that cant be 100% scientifically proven is a "theory".

What are the downsides to making changes to our way of life, to attempt to limit the effects of climate change and to leave as much as possible behind for the generations to come? We know that we are running out of oil fast...we use a million years of stored oil every year...not exactly sustainable. There are increased levels of asthma, cancer, mercury poisoning, and various other ailments due to our use of Fossil fuels. We as a nation can either lead the way into a new, sustainable future, or we can use fossil fuels to the last drop and then have a catastrophic collapse of our society.

I don’t mean anything personally, or mean any offense by any of these comments, they are general statements directed toward our country as a whole...

E-mail me at ekazyak@comcast.net if you have questions about anything above that you do not wish to post here...as I do not feel that this is the correct place to do so.

Thanks

[mudskipper1]

http://coralreef.gov/climate/
Yes, i am saying there is a real potential that at some point in the not so distant future, our aquariums may be the only place which has reef in habitants.

And I will not shy away from the facts...

[mudskipper1]

where did your info about ocean temperatures decreasing come from?

You have to back "facts" up with sources so the means of which the conclusions were drawn can be assessed...

[mudskipper1]

http://climate.jpl.nasa.gov/news/index.cfm?FuseAction=ShowNews&NewsID=26&text=Larger

http://www.epa.gov/climatechange/science/futurecc.html

a few more links on the subject...

and Climate does not refer to 5 years...it does not refer to weather, it refers to large scale changes...

[mudskipper1]

http://www.whole-systems.org/extinctions.html

http://www.ipcc.ch/pdf/technical-papers/climate-changes-biodiversity-en.pdf

Couple more...

[mudskipper1]

really? no responses yet...I thought we were gonna have a nice little debate...shame

[chort55]

mudskipper1.... don't take this the wrong way but everything you said in your 1st post was based on "predictions"... so please forgive me for not taking the time to bother with looking at the rest.... Anyways, if I predict the world is going to stop spinning March 26th at 5:27 p.m. (Eastern) of this year for 1 month 3 weeks, 6 days, 18 hours, 56 minutes and 4 seconds, then reverse its spinning patern all while causing a massive freezeoff in 63.85% of the world, and an extreme "broil" killing off the rest of the world would you believe that as a fact also??

[Shmax]

Thank you for providing at least some basis for your line of thinking, that is certainly appreciated! I'm digging through some of the material I was reading to try to find you a link for the oceanic temp probe studies. I'll pm you those as soon as I find them. I applaud you for being involved, and not merely spouting the view fed to us all over the place.
Oil and Gas (and eventually coal) are likely to run out, both utter tragedies which are 100% genuine. Don't get me wrong, I feel that pollution is absolutely wrong and we need to completely reduce the amount of items we send to land-fill and recycling them where possible makes sense. We need to urgently find replacement fuels to replace oil.

This does not imply that Global Warming is related to any of the above. I feel that the net effect of the overstated Global Warming craze is just one where Governments and companies tax you either directly or indirectly more on anything they can. Its already happening in the UK. To believe that they are motivated by concern for the environment is gullible at best and kidding yourselves. They do it for votes, and they do it to extract more money and control out of the populace. The human condition dictates that we must be having an effect on the planet (in our minds) After all we are more than 6 billion humans in the world, and that number seems awfully big, doesn't it?

Look we can post links until we're both blue in the face, links about 200 deserting "scientists" from the IPCC who were silenced by their attorneys because they wanted to expose the lies they've been feeding to world leaders. The truth is there are things we can do to help make less of a mess, but this world, this Earth, are out of our hands.

[Shmax]

really? no responses yet...I thought we were gonna have a nice little debate...shame

Hey! Give a guy a minute... I don't sit here ALL THE TIME. I went and watched some t.v. :D

[Shmax]

Here's something I thought you might find interesting though. The IPCC's latest report had a listed 380 contributors. The vast majority of which aren't even in the field of natural sciences.... here's the breakdown of the contributors from the US. If you would like a link to the actual report, I'll post it below.

"Of the 70 US contributors, there were 7 economists, 13 social scientists, 3 epidemiologists, 10 biologists/ecologists, 5 engineers, 2 modellers/statisticians, 1 full-time activist (and 1 part time), 5 were in public health and policy, and 4 were unknowns. 17 worked in earth/atmospheric sciences. Again, we gave the benefit of the doubt to geographers where it wasn’t clear whether their specialism was physical, or human geography."

1 full-time activist(and 1 part time), are you kidding me?!? How is anyone supposed to take this seriously as scientifically based? It's painfully obvious they are AGENDA driven, not driven by the search of the truth.

http://www.ipcc.ch/pdf/assessment-report/ar4/wg2/ar4-wg2-app.pdf

[mudskipper1]

Chort55...The difference here being that there is a scientific basis for the "predictions" that i made reference to, and there is no such basis for yours...

Shmax-Thankyou for your reasonable discussion here...i look forward to seeing that study...

However, I am yet to see any "facts" or scientific studies coming from the opposite side of the argument...

I wasnt specifically referring to you with the no responses yet...but in 40 minutes...nobody had even commented...and before that, it seemed like it was every few minutes

Thanks again

[mudskipper1]

are you really saying that looking at the issue from all aspects of society is actually a bad thing? The reason that all those people were necessary is that there are impacts which extend not just into Environmental issues, but all aspects of life.

[chort55]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14305393#post14305393 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Shmax

1 full-time activist(and 1 part time), are you kidding me?!? How is anyone supposed to take this seriously as scientifically based? It's painfully obvious they are AGENDA driven, not driven by the search of the truth.

http://www.ipcc.ch/pdf/assessment-report/ar4/wg2/ar4-wg2-app.pdf [/B]

The truth is... if we believe everything we're told is truth and fact we'd elect everyone who runs for government LOL

Ohh yeah... the part time activist will be full time... as soon as he graduates (no not taking a stab at ya mudskipper) :D

I do give mudskipper credit for trying, but really if you were that worried about the environment and all you'd believe we should be reverting to cavemanism and get rid of as much technology as possible... all of it. Also we should stay out of our oceans, and mind our own lives and not be contaminating our waterways with our boats that take those researchers out to the waters etc. etc. etc.

[mudskipper1]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14305491#post14305491 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by chort55
The truth is... if we believe everything we're told is truth and fact we'd elect everyone who runs for government LOL

Ohh yeah... the part time activist will be full time... as soon as he graduates (no not taking a stab at ya mudskipper) :D

I do give mudskipper credit for trying, but really if you were that worried about the environment and all you'd believe we should be reverting to cavemanism and get rid of as much technology as possible... all of it. Also we should stay out of our oceans, and mind our own lives and not be contaminating our waterways with our boats that take those researchers out to the waters etc. etc. etc.

I am the one just trying? i am the one providing multiple sources for my info, all reputable...And I cannot believe that you would actually say that I am not "really" worried about the Environment "and all"...without meeting me, talking to me, having any basis for it...not exactly professional Mr. Business owner...

[Shmax]

Does it not bother you Eric, that what scientists called global warming now tote as climate change? Where do you think that term was created? When did it begin? Do you not find it odd at all? Ok, you want some links to facts as to the basis that the planet is going through normal changes, not man-created ones? You got it! This first one isn't necessarily proof by any means, I just thought it was funny that the founder of The Weather Channel would come out and openly call global warming a scam.
http://newsbusters.org/blogs/noel-sheppard/2007/11/07/weather-channel-founder-global-warming-greatest-scam-history

Ok, now some goodies.

http://www.heartland.org/policybot/results.html?artId=11548

http://www.aim.org/aim-column/media-promote-global-warming-fraud/

http://media.www.thelantern.com/media/storage/paper333/news/2008/12/08/Opinion/Nasa-Errors.Put.Global.Warming.facts.In.Doubt-3572854.shtml

http://www.ncpa.org/ba/ba230.html

Now you and I both know we could post links forever, and neither will even read them past what they want to hear. I say we put this to bed. At least that's where I'm going. Goodnight!

[chort55]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14305422#post14305422 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mudskipper1
Chort55...The difference here being that there is a scientific basis for the "predictions" that i made reference to, and there is no such basis for yours...

Those scientific "predicitons" weren't possibly by the same great scientific minds that have been saying for 60+ years that the climate here in MI was going to be like Florida's and vice versa in 20-30 years were they?? lol

Funny thing about science and scientific method when it comes to the environment is that its always changing and they can't seem to find a set equation that works... thats why many things stay a prediction. We can say what has happened, but for alot of it can't even say exactly why it happened.... but like I said can't really "predict" what will happen all to accurately. And while my goof "predicition" might have been a bit extreme and over the top thats what I was going for to make a point... Lastly, there have been scientist who have predicted scientifically that the world would end by certain date ranges, so far they've been wrong, maybe the others will be too when we get to the dates they have "predicted" lol

[mudskipper1]

And I do not believe we should resort to " Cavemanism ", we need to move forward in our thinking, not backwards, in order to fix this problem we need to understand it better, so stopping research would be rediculous, and I dont think there are enough caves for 6 billion people...

[Shmax]

Before I go though I do want to point this out because I know you won't read down this far in that link.

"In fact, the U.N.'s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) is officially sponsored by the U.N. Environmental Program, which once organized an "Environmental Sabbath" program so people could pay homage to the planet. The program included an exercise for children to sit around a tree, hold hands, and meditate.

The coverage of the IPCC report demonstrates how mainstream journalists have abandoned even a pretense of objectivity.

This reflects the influence of such figures as Socialist Senator Bernie Sanders, who, at the recent so-called National Conference on Media Reform, said that the media should not cover both sides of the global warming debate.

However, some scientists are raising the alarm. "

That said I do have to respond to ONE of your above points directly.are you really saying that looking at the issue from all aspects of society is actually a bad thing? The reason that all those people were necessary is that there are impacts which extend not just into Environmental issues, but all aspects of life.

Yes, beyond a shadow of a doubt I'm saying looking at the issue from ANY aspect that is NOT of a purely scientific nature is absolutely absurd. Put it in perspective. If I want to know if an additive for my reef is safe, am I going to ask someone like... oh, I don't know... a chemist? Or am I going to ask a social engineer what he thinks? That's insane.

[chort55]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14305564#post14305564 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mudskipper1
And I do not believe we should resort to " Cavemanism ", we need to move forward in our thinking, not backwards, in order to fix this problem we need to understand it better, so stopping research would be rediculous, and I dont think there are enough caves for 6 billion people...

See though thats where maybe your scientist are wrong, afterall had we not created all the techonology we have, we wouldn't have created CFC's, gas and oil burning cars, etc. resulting in no giant hole in the ozone layer, no worry of global warming being created by man (although all the heat from all the cooking fires might cause some extra heat lol) etc.

If theres enough caves we can't find bin laden theres probably enough caves for 60 billion people lol

[mudskipper1]

Lets see those scientists "scientific" reasoning...plus, the "Science" I am referring to is peer reviewed info which is a consensus among the legitamate scientific community...not some random guy saying somethingwhile dressed in a lab coat...

[Shmax]

Lets see those scientists "scientific" reasoning...plus, the "Science" I am referring to is peer reviewed info which is a consensus among the legitamate scientific community...not some random guy saying somethingwhile dressed in a lab coat...

I will take the word of an honest random dude in a lab coat over the word of a U.N. backed, politically involved fraud who is in it for the money and the social benefits of his scam any day of the week. Just saying... if I had the choice. :D

[mudskipper1]

I wanted this to be a legitamate discussion...not a rediculous bashing contest like it has become...I will only respond to posts which contain Scientifically based information with sources etc.

Thanks

[chort55]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14305627#post14305627 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mudskipper1
Lets see those scientists "scientific" reasoning...plus, the "Science" I am referring to is peer reviewed info which is a consensus among the legitamate scientific community...not some random guy saying somethingwhile dressed in a lab coat...

So if I were to get a group of peers together that felt leaving their freezer doors open while outside for 24 hours 2 weeks every month was the cure for global warming would that be scientifically acceptable??

[chort55]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14305656#post14305656 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Shmax
I will take the word of an honest random dude in a lab coat over the word of a U.N. backed, politically involved fraud who is in it for the money and the social benefits of his scam any day of the week. Just saying... if I had the choice. :D

Wow me too, I would think of myself as a peer to you. I have reviewed it and agree.... MUST BE SCIENTIFIC :D

[chort55]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14305657#post14305657 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mudskipper1
I wanted this to be a legitamate discussion...not a rediculous bashing contest like it has become...I will only respond to posts which contain Scientifically based information with sources etc.

Thanks

I'm not trying to bash you, but seriously you haven't really provided much that is considered scientific by the majority of the non-paid off concensus.

I must admit I definitly love your new definition of scientific proof. Never realized all those studies of underage drinking me and my friends did when we were your age were actually scientific LMAO

[wondermidget]

Wow, this thred got off the topic. All I can say is history repeats itself.

Hey no worries, yeah my mom is always saying she dosen't believe any wild animal should be kept captive (I've always got some kind of exotic pet). I just shrug it off and think to myself, well at least I know they will have a happy spoiled life with me :)

[chort55]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14305729#post14305729 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by wondermidget
Wow, this thred got off the topic. All I can say is history repeats itself.

Hey no worries, yeah my mom is always saying she dosen't believe any wild animal should be kept captive (I've always got some kind of exotic pet). I just shrug it off and think to myself, well at least I know they will have a happy spoiled life with me :)

How exotic?? I met a guy out by where your at that had a black panther several years ago for a "watch cat".... wasn't your husband by chance was it? lol

[Jim96SC2]

I'm not even that old and we were taught in elementary school that the planet was going to be in another ice age. That and we were going to lose our ozone layer and all fry to death.

One part I do love about all the GW stuff is that no matter what happens in the world, someone can link it to "climate change"...

Hot Summer.. global warming
Cold winter.. north atlantic drift
Earthquakes.. mantel expansion/oil drilling
Tanker dissappears.. warm temps unfroze giant kraken
Pollution reduces.. CO2 was the main problem
CO2 subsibes.. Ozone layer going
Ozone layer comes back.. GLOBAL WARMING!

[jeffnsa]

they can't even predict todays weather, how am i supposed to believe they know what's going to happen 10 years down the road. the only way to lessen mans impact on earth is to eliminate more than half the population and i am not voluntering to be one of them. i believe in conservation and recycling and keeping things clean but the media always shows how bad everyone thinks the world is but it is not the truth. untill we know what every living thing on this planet is and what it can cause, all the climate science is just a theory.

[No Worries1979]

Wow, how this thread has taken a turn.

The bottom line is that "climate change", "global warming" or whatever you want to call it is happening whether we like it or not. Sure you have to keep in mind the natural fluctuation of the earth's temps. and la nina, el nino cycles, but the bottom line is that we humans have not helped mother nature the last 110 years with the industrial age. I don't think China and India with their massive populations and their industrial age coming about is helping either. So to say that "global warming is not true" is a bit of a stretch. You could also argue that: Why should we try to conserve since the earth will eventually gravitate towards the sun and destroy us all in a few million years?

[wondermidget]

chort, not that exotic ( I wish though) just things like sugar gliders, ferrets and the few dozen local wild life that I rehabed, but I only kept them untill they were healthy enough to be set free again.

[chort55]

Wondermidget, yeah the guy had the permits to keep it and everything. It was trained more like a overly protective watch dog (he collected old extremely rare cars), yet almost like a house cat to him. When he walked into the area it was kept it would "cuddle around his legs" and all that just like a house cat, but if anyone else walked in you better have your super track shoes on because it was coming....QUICK!

Anyways.... that's awesome that you rehab wildlife in your area, my dog's just run wildlife away, except the deer they keep to the back or front of the property where the dogs can't get to them (invisible fence is some pretty cool stuff lol).