do we over-acclimate?

[Sk8r]

I'm suspicious that quite a lot of otherwise healthy fish have been killed, particularly by new hobbyists, by over-acclimation, ie, left too long in the bag, ph change, etc, during the slow drip method.

My thinking is that if the hobby recommended matching salinity foremost, to a tolerance of .001, using a refractometer, and then putting the fish straightway into the quarantine tank, the instant there's a salinity match---(ie, if they come in at a matching salinity, just put them straight from the bag to the qt tank)---there would be fewer fatalities. Even a heat difference is not that big a shock, compared to the salinity problem.

If the hobby 'officially' encouraged a qt setup matching the salinity of the lfs or usual online dealer, then salinity can be adjusted over the next days by topoff.

I'd be interested in the wisdom of others on this point.

[JHemdal]

Sk8r,

This is a huge problem - people have taken it to the extreme and have begun drip-acclimating for hours - if 30 minutes is good, then six hours must be better, right?

For fish, only a rise in salinity needs to be adapted to carefully - fish can handle a drop in salinity much better than a rise. For long shipments, the pH / ammonia relationship must be dealt with. Decapods don't like pH changes and Echinoderms cannot tolerate salinity changes either way very well....

Here is an excerpt from an article I wrote for the 12/08 issue of Advanced Aquarist Online Magazine:

"Think about this - you have been outside without a coat, you are hypothermic, you are then given the choice of going inside and sitting by a space heater or moving into the garage to warm up just a little, and then an hour later, go into the house - your choice is? It is the same with fish and inverts - any temperature acclimation times of more than 15 minutes are useless. Temperature shock is a much rarer thing than you might think - many more fish die due to low dissolved oxygen or high ammonia while being acclimated too long for temperature (Hemdal 2006). Perhaps worry about photo-shock, pH change and specific gravity increases, but don't go overboard. Ultimately, ask yourself; what is more stressful to a fish - acclimating them in a bare Styrofoam box or bucket for five hours, or having the water parameters abruptly change, but then being able to hole up undercover in a dark cave inside a good quality aquarium to recuperate?"


Jay

[Sk8r]

This is the direction I am thinking also. The community that most needs this advice, if accurate, is the newbie forum, where I frequently post, but I am flying this past other experienced reefers to try to turn up potential problems before handing it out for advice in there. I have tested this with fish. I have had zero problems. I would think it would apply to any fish, maybe even *particularly* with larger fish. I would say that inverts, more tolerant of bad water than of salinity change, might do with a little drip adjustment, to take care of any parameters that I am wrong-headed about, but with fish, I just can't see that it would do more harm than what we are encouraging newbies to do.

[HighlandReefer]

I recently posted a thread in the Chemistry forum on this subject and all posters pretty much agreed with the above statements:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1568325&highlight=bag+fish

[Sk8r]

Interesting. Thank you for that link.

[chimmike]

to be honest, I'm guilty lately of not acclimating except maybe for temperature.

The last 10 or so corals I've added, and 3 fish, I've added without drip acclimation, and most of them weren't even temp acclimated.

My theory is that the fish/coral/whatever is already at a high level of stress by being transported in a moving plastic prison, setting him in another container to drip acclimate will stress him out more, then adding him to the aquarium itself will add a measure of stress. No acclimation to me means one less instance where it'd be possible to push the creature over the limit and kill it.

So far, my results have been good. But, my tank params are fairly good. Temp remains constant around 80*, PH around 8.0-8.1, nitrates and nitrites 0.

[nismo driver]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14371291#post14371291 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by chimmike
to be honest, I'm guilty lately of not acclimating except maybe for temperature.

The last 10 or so corals I've added, and 3 fish, I've added without drip acclimation, and most of them weren't even temp acclimated.



same here, i feel far less concerned about not acclimating then the fact that i dont properly QT before adding new fish or coral.

[LobsterOfJustice]

When I used to drip acclimate, I found that pH would NEVER match - that is, the fish's respiration or the atmosphere changed the pH of the bag faster than the inflow of water.

Now I float the bag for 20 minutes, double the water in the bag with tank water, and then put them in after another 10-20 minutes.

[zooty]

Ehhh, I'm either brave or stupid but all of my fish (15+), inverts (???+) and corals (25+) have been temp acclimated then dumped into the tank.

I have lost corals due to insufficient light or flow (n00b) but I have never lost a fish or gotten an ich outbreak. No QT tank either. Right into the display.

Why screw around with all that? Its just more stress on the fish.

[Sk8r]

I maintain if you can get that salinity to .001 of a match, you're golden. QT is wisest: you can luck out 20 times, and your 21st fish can take out at least a group of fishes.

[PogoMonogo]

Any fish I have ever put in my tank, I pretty much immediately put into the tank upon arriving home. I have only ever lost a fish to jumping out in the last two years. I agree with the whole "over-acclimation" thing.

[KingDiamond]

Sometimes it doesn't matter how careful you are. One time I had to relocate a group of six French Grunts (Haemulon flavolineatum) that had been living in a quarentine tank for about two months. I acclimated the fish for temperature and salinity for about 10-15 minutes. Five of the fish swam away fine the other fish turned belly up as soon as I introduced it into the tank. My best guess is that it died of shock, but the other fish lived in that tank for years. :confused:

[MarcB]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14373762#post14373762 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by KingDiamond
Sometimes it doesn't matter how careful you are. One time I had to relocate a group of six French Grunts (Haemulon flavolineatum) that had been living in a quarentine tank for about two months. I acclimated the fish for temperature and salinity for about 10-15 minutes. Five of the fish swam away fine the other fish turned belly up as soon as I introduced it into the tank. My best guess is that it died of shock, but the other fish lived in that tank for years. :confused:

Like the name and Avatar. I met those guys when they toured for that album. Still have the autographed copy.

[KingDiamond]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14373975#post14373975 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MarcB
Like the name and Avatar. I met those guys when they toured for that album. Still have the autographed copy.

Caught Andys' pick last time I saw them three years ago.

[theman772]

I like the drip but with use of an air stone (battery powered) and a cave for fish in a hang on the tank box also shipped fish(or in a bag for a long time ) will get a shot of amquel

[witfull]

the main problem with long term acclimation of fish that have been in a bag for a long duration (ovenight shipping) is that as the O2 anf pH levels fall free ammonia NH3 is converted into ammonium NH4. ammonium is less toxic, but once the bag is opened and the O2 level causes a pH rise free ammonia rises quickly.

check out this article:
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2007-02/rhf/index.php

[Sk8r]

But is it necessary to match more than the salinity? Are there any other parameters to worry about, say for more fragile species?

[ngn8dogg]

Ive got all my fish at LFS's and they are all very close and when I get home I don't even acclimate and just throw them in my tank. i pretty much do the same for corals also . I have never lost ANYTHING due to acclimation errors.

[tmz]

I think it's much better to match the qt tank salinity and temp to the bag water than to acclimate for long periods of time. Aside from the stress and confinement issue, I am concerned about ammonia toxicity , particularly with shipped fish that have been in the bag for a long period of time.

CO2 and ammonia build up in the bag . The CO2 lowers the ph. Ammonia speciates to less toxic ammonium at lower ph . Open the bag and the CO2 equilibriates with the air and the ammonium becomes the much more toxic free ammonia.

When I order shipped fish , I ask for the sg of the shipping water. Many shippers use low sg water ,in the 1.015 to 1.018 range. Moving a fish from 1.015 to 1.025 or 26 will stress it tremendously and may likely put it into osmotic shock. Ideally you would want to raise the sg .001 or .002 per day. So who can acclimate for a week in ammonia toxic bag water?

In the case of long confinement in the bag, there isn't much you can do about ph since it will spike when the bag is opened. Approximating the sg will get you pretty close on ph.

I also try to estimate what the temperature is going to be and stay on the warmer side of it in the winter and opposite in the summer.

I match the quarantine tank sg to the shipping water or use a lower salinity since a drop in sg even a rapid one wont stress a fish at all.

I float the unopened bag for 15 for 20 minutes for a final temperature acclimation: open the bag, dump most of the bagwaer into a bucket and slide the fish into the quarantine tank quickly.

Now with the fish in qt I can use the next for weeks to move the qt water to match the display tank water.

[witfull]

you have to be careful to not "just dump them in" most LFS run their salinity around 1.018. they do this for 2 reasons, ich has a low tolerance to low salinity, and the REAL REASON cost. LFS go through alot of salt water daily. replacing at "true levels is not cost effective. in retail coral tanks salinity is usually kept higher (1.021-2) they are less likely to suffer shock due to the higher salinity and the fact that they are closed up and will slowly acclimate themselves as they take in water to inflate their tissue.

im my opinion, temp is the main worry, them time in transit (and all that entails) then salinity.

when i had my stores, and got trans-ships in, temp acclimate first, salinity check and then "dump into clean fresh SW. (i knew the appox levels my shippers used and would go for a salinity near inbetween).

[greenbean36191]

Of all the parameters to worry about temp is the very last one I would consider acclimating for. It's just not important. Our animals are eurythermal and there's no indication that temperature fluctuations of even 15 degrees are a source of stress for any reef animals. Going from 60 in a shipping bag to 80 in a tank may cause some stress, but it's minimal compared to osmotic, DO, and ammonia issues.

For most animals salinity is the most important and really the only thing to be concerned about. pH is important too, but it's hard to safely adjust in a shipping bag and except for very sensitive species it shouldn't be a life threatening issue.

For fish, I approximately match the salinity and dump.

For most inverts, including snails and corals I dump any shipping water. Snails I just stick to the sides above the water line. Corals slime up for a few minutes and then I put them in the tank.

For sensitive critters (echinoderms especially) I dump most of the shipping water so there's just enough to keep the animal moist, let them sit for about 15 minutes and then start slowly dripping tank water in. Aside from sponges, they're much better off being exposed to the air for an hour or so than they are to a bag full of high ammonia, low DO water.

[Sk8r]

Thanks, Greenbean. Real interesting about the corals. I hadn't thought of going that far. But of course they'd do that. I think I am modifying my procedures with corals.

[CBehr]

So after reading this.. what is the suggested acclimation of fish?

I buy fish online, shipped overnight
float 10-15 mintues,
Dump most water out and replace with small amounts for 15-20 minutes at which time SG should be approx the same.
Dump in QT tank, which should probably have a SG of around 1.018 or so to better match LFS water.

[billsreef]

For fish, just adjust temp if there's a large difference, and remove from nasty bag water and place in good clean tank water ;) No lengthy drip acclimation needed. Same for corals and anemones.

Snails do best "dry acclimated", i.e. if shipped in water, take them out of water and let them drain for 20 minutes or so, than place in tank water. If dry shipped, just place them in tank.

Crustaceans and echinoderms from reef areas can be a bit fussier and generally require a drip acclimation. Ones from lagoon/estuarine areas are better adapted to fluctuations and can simply be temp adjusted and dropped in, if salinity is reasonable close.

[NirvanaFan]

I acclimate in a few different ways, depending on the situation. I do agree with over acclimating, but if the conditions are right, I'll acclimate for hours.

If I buy a coral from the LFS or online, I usually won't quarantine it. I know I should, but don't have the cash to spend on a qt light right now. I give it a very good inspection. My family thinks I'm weird when I look at a coral in a bag through a magnifying glass. I usually take the rubber bands off the bag, and use a chip clip to clip the bag onto the sump and let the bag float in the water. Then I'll start a drip from the display to the bag that is clipped on the sump. Sometimes I'll let it go for 4 or 5 hours, emptying the bag as needed. I usually only let it go for around 45 minutes. This probably isn't needed, but it surely can't hurt. Floating the bag in the water keeps the temperature stable and dripping changes the parameters slowly. This is overkill, but I don't see how it will hurt the coral, only help it transition to my tank.

If I buy a fish from the LFS, I usually clip the bag onto the side of the qt tank and float the bag in the water. I add some water every 5 minutes for 15 minutes, and then take half the water out of the bag. I'll add water every 5 minutes again for 15 minutes or so, and then dump the fish in. The LFS is less than 5 minutes away from my house, so I don't have to worry about low 02, or ammonia toxicity.

If I buy a fish online. I try to get it out off the bag quickly. I'll float the bag for a minute while I inspect the fish and take a reading of the Specific gravity of the water. If the sg is within 4 points, I fill the bag almost to the top with water (this usually doubles the water in the bag). After 5 minutes, I'll dump the fish (including the water) into the QT. If I buy a fish online and know it is going into the 30g QT, I set the sg of the qt to 1.024. I always have at least 10 gallons of heated RO/DI, just in case the salinity is less than 1.020.

[HighlandReefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14386615#post14386615 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by billsreef
For fish, just adjust temp if there's a large difference, and remove from nasty bag water and place in good clean tank water ;) No lengthy drip acclimation needed. Same for corals and anemones.

Snails do best "dry acclimated", i.e. if shipped in water, take them out of water and let them drain for 20 minutes or so, than place in tank water. If dry shipped, just place them in tank.

Crustaceans and echinoderms from reef areas can be a bit fussier and generally require a drip acclimation. Ones from lagoon/estuarine areas are better adapted to fluctuations and can simply be temp adjusted and dropped in, if salinity is reasonable close.

I know a few hobbyists that purchase fish that cost over $1,000.00. I wonder if they acclimate the same way? I don't know what I would do with a fish that costs that much. :)

[MayorOfWhoVille]

My vote is 'yes', we over-acclimate. Especially after reading this thread!

[dots]

Nothing wrong with erring on the side of caution IMO

[billsreef]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14392655#post14392655 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by dots
Nothing wrong with erring on the side of caution IMO

Interestingly, once I was convinced to try giving up lengthy acclimation procedures, my DAA (Dead After Arrival) rates dropped. The biggest difference (in favor of just floating and dumping) was in transhipped and overnight shipped fish.

[tmz]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14392655#post14392655 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by dots
Nothing wrong with erring on the side of caution IMO

;) In the case of acclimation what one may think is caution sometimes results in longer time in the toxified bag water and a dose of ammonia poisoning to go along with osmotic shock.

When that bag that has confined a fish for a long period is opened ,such as is the case for shipped specimens , the ammonia in the water turns into its toxic form as the CO2 blows off and the ph rises.

It's much safer ,in my opinion. to match the quarantine tank to the sg of the bagwater and to move the fish out of the bag quickly once it's opened in those cases when the fish has been confined to the bag for a long period of time. Or if you don't know th sg of the bag water, aim low, ie introduce the fish quickly to water at lower sg, say 1.015 or so.It won't hurt the fish to move rapidly to a lower sg ,as long as it's higher than 1.008 (ther internal salinity of the fish)

[dots]

I guess I should point out I was thinking of fishys.....more than coral. But it really depends on the differential of the two samples.

How many people have tested the water BEFORE acclimation prior to introduction? Or did it only occur when there was a problem?

As far as the shipping thing.....I have always had a problem with that.....I always prefer to pick them up myself to ensure what I am getting. Though I understand some don't have that option all the time.

Testing and matching the bag water would be the best mode of introduction, then adjust over time to limit stress.......but who does that? Probably too much for most to handle.

[adtravels]

I have always been bung em in, living in thailand the Temp is never a problem.
This applies to fish corals and anemones.
The only things I acclimate for any length of tome are shrimp, stars,urchins and snails. And just because the LFS here tend to keep them in low sg for a period.
I have only ever lost a sexy shrimp and urchin to sg issues. I do advocate dimming the lighting (but definately not dark), this really seems to help. And adding agressive territorial fish last.

Of course it means your tank water must be of the highest standards

[tmz]

If you are using a quarantine tank it's really easy to set it up at low salinity(even less than the bag water won't hurt) and adjust it upward over a period of time for shipped fish. With locally acquired fish where the sg is close drip acclimation for 30 minutes or so is usually not a problem.

[Sk8r]

I always check the salinity of the bag, first thing after opening. I never believe what I'm told by the shipper.

[tmz]

Yeah I believe in checking too but I have a sense of urgency about moving the fish out of that water as soon as I can or at least diluting it so I usually just use low sg of around 1.015 in the qt tank. The bag water won't likely be much if any lower and a drop won't cause any stress.. I suppose a few seconds for a refractometer check wouldn't hurt too much.

[Dragonlady]

For fish, I dim the lights and float the bag for 15 minutes. Every 5 minutes I slowly add some of the tank water for a total of 30 minutes. I have not added a fish in several years.

Different acclimation procedures seem to be safer for more sensitive invertebrates such as snails and other invertebrates. In the past, my snails would mysteriously die after about a month until I learned to drip acclimate. I blamed it on hermit crabs. I took the hermits out and it happened again. The mysterious deaths in snails did not happen after I drip acclimated them for about 2-3 hours.



Dr. Ronald Shimek suggests a 5-10 hour drip acclimation for snails in this article.

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-05/rs/index.php


The vessels in the kidney are numerous and delicate, and may rupture if the animal is not slowly acclimated when being moved from one set of water conditions to another. If the acclimation is too fast, the animal will die in a few minutes to a few weeks.

[billsreef]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14402730#post14402730 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by dots
Testing and matching the bag water would be the best mode of introduction, then adjust over time to limit stress.......but who does that?

I used to do that, even with large shipments of fish. Over the years I've discovered that getting them out of the nasty bag water and into clean water fast is far more beneficial to their well being. Think of like being locked in a polluted room than being let out into the fresh clean air...what's better, slowly being teased with sips of fresh clean air, or just getting the heck and into clean air?

[E.intheC]

Bill, I understand your thinking along these lines for longer shipments, but do you feel the same way when you're bringing home a fish from the local store, and their water isn't THAT terrible. I mean.. it's not as good as my system water, but...

[Obi-dad]

I am not sure that water temp really needs to be matched. I have been snorkeling over reefs where the temp change from one side of the reef to the other is large (ocean side to lagoon side) - and fish move back and forth between the different temps, no problem.

[billsreef]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14407153#post14407153 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by E.intheC
Bill, I understand your thinking along these lines for longer shipments, but do you feel the same way when you're bringing home a fish from the local store, and their water isn't THAT terrible. I mean.. it's not as good as my system water, but...

Still no reason to leave the fish swimming around that little baggie ;)

[E.intheC]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14407225#post14407225 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Obi-dad
I am not sure that water temp really needs to be matched. I have been snorkeling over reefs where the temp change from one side of the reef to the other is large (ocean side to lagoon side) - and fish move back and forth between the different temps, no problem.

In addition to this: I'm sure the salinity changes a lot near the freshwater river inlets. Not only do brackish fish thrive here, but I'm sure the water around these areas isnt' at full salinity either..

Not to say that all ocean areas are like this

[tmz]

Again Marine fish have an internal slainity of about 1.008, so they can tolerate lower slainity than their usual natural surroundings of 1.024 to 1.029 in the short term as long as it doesn't go below thier internal salinity. Invertebrates have an internal slainity that matches the water around them and can not regulate it internaly, so they are much less tolerant of slainities out of thier natural range.

[Young Reefer 03]

i aclimate evrything the same, whether its a coral, or snail. i first float the bag for 20ush minutes, then i dump out majority of the water, and drip aclimate for about an hour in an open bucket. i let the water double, or triple

[Sk8r]

That's the standard now: I think it needs to be much shorter, or, in some cases, non-existent.

[miwoodar]

:beer: Thanks folks. This has been a very enlightening thread so far.

[nutcase]

I have been keeping up with this thread and I have a question?

I have a shipment arriving on Tuesday with a couple of Anemones. These are arriving overnight from a major online company. How would you acclimate them?

BTW I used the short temp adjustment and dump for a shipment of shrimp, snails, and crabs and all survived which was a better result than the long aclimation that I used on a shipment last year.

[tmz]

Anemones are sensitive to sg in my experience. They don't do well if it's low. If you can find out the sg of the shipment and it's close within.01 of your tank I would just float em for 15 minutes in the unopened bag and then pick em out of th bag and put them in your tank. If you don't know the sg of the shipping wter and your tank is in teh 1.025 nieghborhood , I would do the same float for 15 minutes in the unopened bag and them put the m in the tank.

[greenbean36191]

If you're getting the anemones from an experienced company there's a good chance they won't come shipped in water. If that's the case you can basically just plop them in the tank.

If they are shipped in water, dump it all out and slowly add the new water.

[Harry_Fish]

I used to do the long acclamation.

Over the years have had a few oops, like the rubberband popping
off the bag as it was floating and the fish swims out, or they jump
out and into the tank etc. They all seemed to do just fine.

Now...

Fish:

I float them for about 10-15 minutes then dump most of the shipping water.

I then add some tank water to the bag and let it float for about 15 minutes.

Then I pour the bag out through a net to catch the fish and release it in into the tank.

----

Corals:

Swish them around to make them close up then just place in the tank.

[joeychitwood]

I float the bag in my tank, add a couple of cups of tank water, and place the fish only into the tank after about 10 minutes. I'm a diver, and I've seen tremendous changes in temperature and salinity in various sections of the natural reef. The fish tolerate the changes as part of life on the reef.

[luther1200]

I never agreed with the long acclimation. Even when I first started, I never dripped anything. I just float them for 5 min. Then keep adding a little water every 5 minn, for 20-25 min. And I've never had a problem. I think its much worse with fish, than with coral. If I'm floating a fish and he looks stressed I let him out right away.

[MarkusII]

Hello,

I posted allready a few weeks ago this in another post:

Hello,

I stopped aclimating fish and other animals since a while (except shrimps species). I have an excellent vendor with a good fish quality and just catch the fish out of the bag and put them in the main tank ( with no losses ever since I changed). Healthy fish normally have no problem with this - and even fishes in a bad condition from shipping I would insert quickly into the tank instead of putting them in a bucket and slowly adding water exposes them more to stress.

regards

Markus

[spsfreak]

I agree with Bill on this one. I too am a believer (and always have been) of - get the fish\coral\other out of the bag as soon as I am home and put it in the tank. I have only ever lost a shrimp to this method, but I am not convinced it was due to the acclimation process. Again, as discussed on many threads here on RC, the ocean is not a place of consistency either, especially in tidal pools and shallow reefs. The tide does wax and wane, therefore every parameter in said area has the possibility of changing drastically in some form or fashion. The animals we bring home are much more resilient than we think them to be. Having said that, we still have to respect how we handle them. Just my 2 pennies.
Matt

[spongebob281]

I dont think we over acclimate (drip method) if anything we under acclimate. I find dripping is a steady and safe method for most fish

[DaveG99]

I float the bag for about 10 minutes. Then I throw the fish in.
I have never aclimated any coral.