Canister?

[vyerous]

Well I made a trip to my LFS the other day and had a talk with one of the few people I trust there. We got on the topic of my tank and how I couldn't risk having a sump overflow and what not and he was shocked by the fact that I was running a HOB filter. Now I run it to pretty much suck up random floating junk, run the ceramics to help promote even more bacteria colonization (even though I have plenty of live rock), and if I feel like it throwing a bag of carbon in there. Sure not the most conventional means but it works for me so don't rain on my parade just yet =D

As we were talking he was telling me why I should use a canister filter over a HOB, ultimately a sump would be better but I don't want to risk it in my situation (3rd story condo, nuff said). I told him I thought that they were a a potential threat for harvesting nitrates. That's about the point where I felt stupid, he went on to explain that the canister would be better because of the amount of surface area you can cram more ceramic (or even live rock) to help develop the beneficial bacteria that eats nitrate and what not. So can someone please tell me, why exactly I shouldn't get a canister and keep the HOB? Its more surface area, I can run carbon in there if need be, I can stuff it full of live rock/other bacteria hosting material, and it gets more crap off of my tank.

By all means I welcome all opinions and teachings, I am open to anything you guys have to say good or bad, I'm just wondering if I should bother. Thanks!

[Sisterlimonpot]

By plenty of LR what does that mean? If you have at least 55 lbs then you don't need the ceramic pellets. You can't grow anaerobic bacteria (the ones that eat nitrates) in a canister filter designed to hold ceramic pellets. Anaerobic bacteria can't grow in an environment that has oxygen.

IMO I wouldn't stray from a sump for the simple fact that you live on the 3rd floor. If you set up a sump the right way you'll never have a flooding problem. All you have to do is make sure your sump can hold the water from the main tank when all pumps are off.
If you don’t want to go the sump route than I would keep the HOB and use it for a place to put charcoal, LR or even better yet a small refugium.

[vyerous]

What do you mean it can't grow in an environment that has oxygen? Doesn't your tank have oxygen in the water? How can it grow in a tank normally then? I thought the canister is basically taking the HOB filter and putting it on the floor with more room, on top of that forcing water through the filters rather than some through and most of it around it.

By plenty of LR I mean live rock. You can take out the filters and stuff live rock rubble in there, it will harness the bacteria like it does in your tank except it would be undisturbed in this setting.

I am going to do a HOB refugium so that is taken care of. This sump would be more so to harness more bacteria and help with sifting particles in the water. The HOB filters are small (and I have one rated for a 70g and a 30g) and they contribute to salt creep like no other.

My angle is the more beneficial bacteria the better, sure my tank is stocked full of live rock 50+ lbs plus 100+ lbs of "live" sand. Sure I may have enough but why not more? I am having an issue with algae and I'm already doing other things to combat it, one suggestion was to create the amount of bacteria that will eat some of the things the algae eats taking priority over it, thus starving the algae. I am running GFO and carbon but why not have more of this bacteria, I figure you can't have too much of a good thing in this situation.

The problem with the sump is my tank isn't drilled so I would have to do a HOB overflow, which I haven't heard the greatest things about, plus all it takes is a clog or something to fail. Believe me if I were doing a sump it would be the right way, I just don't know if I'm willing to take the risk. I have read about too many horror stories, I would hate to get a call while at work about water leaking through my neighbors ceiling. If there were fail safes, sure.

[Sugar Magnolia]

vyeros, just curious, which lfs did you go to? I ask because there are some incredible marine/reef stores in our area.

Blue Ribbon Koi and Marine in Manassas - http://www.blueribbonkoi.com/

The Marine Scene in Herndon - http://www.marinescene.com/index.shtm

The Aquarium Company in Herndon - http://www.theaquariumcompany.net/

Fins and Feathers in Ashburn - http://finsandfeathers.storesecured.com/

Pristine Aquariums in Alexandria - http://pristineaquariums.com/new/

Our club, Washington Marine Aquarist Society - www.wamas.org


Just pointing you towards the best of the best on the VA side of the Potomac - there's some in MD too.

I run a canister on my 30 reef. It's true that if not kept meticulously clean that they can lead to a build up of nitrates. The ceramic rings are more for freshwater, so I'd advise removing them slowly over a period of days. You can replace them with LR rubble if you want, but I use my Rena xp3 as a place to run media. I run carbon, chemipure and phosban in mined and clean it every two weeks, replace media when needed. HTH.

[vyerous]

The cozy clownfish. Unfortunately they are not the best, but they are a bit closer than Blue Ribbon Koi and I found a guy that I do trust there. The Marine Scene if phenomenal but its not as convenient, I do try to make 2-3 trips a month there though. As far as Blue Ribbon Koi goes I've only been once and maybe it was the first impression that just hasn't brought me back. I talked to one guy for a little while and I didn't feel too impressed. Granted the cozy clownfish is nothing extravagant and I swore the place off until I ran into the guy a little while ago (except for water) and so far he hasn't steered me wrong.

Again this isn't a debate I'm just curious of options in the future. I really am terrified of running a sump, just sounds sooooo risky. I got the two little fishies reactor to run GFO and carbon, I guess I'm really just looking to get away from the HOB filter.

[Sugar Magnolia]

Ahh, I've been to CC a few times, they know what they're talking about. BRK has moved a mile or so down the road closer to Catharpin into a much larger facility, they're still in the process of stocking, but once finished it'll be great. Prices are much lower than the MS.

FWIW, I run the canister and a HOB filter, just adds a bit more flow and I use a poly/carbon pad in it to catch some more junk.

[Avi]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14380014#post14380014 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by vyerous
...I thought the canister is basically taking the HOB filter and putting it on the floor with more room...

You're right about that. The water in a canister filter is oxygenated and the canister works like a hang-on filter, only it's more efficient and larger. The thing is, as far as reducing nitrates, in a marine tank, your live rock will do the job much more efficiently and you wouldn't need the additional "filtration." This is a controversial subject, and a lot of people report great success with both hang-ons and canisters, so it isn't written in stone, but it's generally accepted by the experiences of most of the people here in RC and elsewhere that if you have about 1.5 pounds of live rock per gallons of water in your system, you don't need additional filtration. A good protein skimmer is a very beneficial piece of equipment, though, IMO, since it will also serve to reduce phosphate levels. By the way, there are denitrifiers that do promote the prolifereration of anaerobic (I think that's the right spelling) bacteria that thrive in oxygenless conditions like a coil denitrifier and a sulfur denitrifier, but a canister is not one of those.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14380014#post14380014 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by vyerous
...The problem with the sump is my tank isn't drilled so I would have to do a HOB overflow, which I haven't heard the greatest things about, plus all it takes is a clog or something to fail. Believe me if I were doing a sump it would be the right way, I just don't know if I'm willing to take the risk. I have read about too many horror stories, I would hate to get a call while at work about water leaking through my neighbors ceiling. If there were fail safes, sure.

I agree that you might be overconcerned about the possibility of a flood with a sump when using a hang-on overflow box. They are trouble free of you use the kind with a U-tube...and using two would be even extra-insurance against the possibility of any flooding. But, so long as you have enough live rock, though it seems to me that you may want to add just a little bit more, you'll be fine with your plan. IMO, the "live sand" isn't nearly as efficient as live rock is and you shouldn't really rely too much on that to enhance your nitrate reducing capacity.

[Sisterlimonpot]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14380014#post14380014 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by vyerous
What do you mean it can't grow in an environment that has oxygen? Doesn't your tank have oxygen in the water? How can it grow in a tank normally then? I thought the canister is basically taking the HOB filter and putting it on the floor with more room, on top of that forcing water through the filters rather than some through and most of it around it.

By plenty of LR I mean live rock. You can take out the filters and stuff live rock rubble in there, it will harness the bacteria like it does in your tank except it would be undisturbed in this setting.

I am going to do a HOB refugium so that is taken care of. This sump would be more so to harness more bacteria and help with sifting particles in the water. The HOB filters are small (and I have one rated for a 70g and a 30g) and they contribute to salt creep like no other.

My angle is the more beneficial bacteria the better, sure my tank is stocked full of live rock 50+ lbs plus 100+ lbs of "live" sand. Sure I may have enough but why not more? I am having an issue with algae and I'm already doing other things to combat it, one suggestion was to create the amount of bacteria that will eat some of the things the algae eats taking priority over it, thus starving the algae. I am running GFO and carbon but why not have more of this bacteria, I figure you can't have too much of a good thing in this situation.

The problem with the sump is my tank isn't drilled so I would have to do a HOB overflow, which I haven't heard the greatest things about, plus all it takes is a clog or something to fail. Believe me if I were doing a sump it would be the right way, I just don't know if I'm willing to take the risk. I have read about too many horror stories, I would hate to get a call while at work about water leaking through my neighbors ceiling. If there were fail safes, sure.
I don't think you read what I wrote properly... by anaerobic bacteria I mean the bacteria that removes NITRATES. Don’t confuse that with the bacteria that convert ammonia to nitrites and the bacteria that convert nitrites to nitrates. Like I said anaerobic bacteria grows in a place that is absent of oxygen. A good example is in a denitrifier, Anaerobic bacteria grows at the bottom end of that 50' of coiled tubing (free of oxygen) and even a better example is in a DSB.

When I asked about what you mean by LR. I meant to say, “How many lbs of live rock do you have?” because if you have at least 55lbs then you don’t need that canister filter… unless you have a boiload bigger than that tank can handle and even if you have a higher bioload I still wouldn’t recommend that canister just add more LR, all your going to do is open the door for more production of nitrates. Bacteria equals the boiload you can’t increase the amount of bacteria by adding more rock, ceramic or what not… if you have 100 lbs of LR, LS and only 1 fish than the bacteria on your rock will only be enough to support that 1 fish. If you want to produce more bacteria than you need more fish waste and oeverfeeding.


One of the things algae strive on is nitrates and one of the only bacteria that will compete with this “food” source is anaerobic bacteria which doesn’t grow well in live rock (it wouldn't be efficient enough unless you have a thick enough piece that oxygen can’t make it to. ) and we’re talking about 8-10 inches in a complete diameter from one side to the other all the way around (in other words a sphere).

[vyerous]

Oh ok I got ya, that does explain a lot and I did misunderstand.

I appreciate the replies and I am still unsure about the canister. I just don't see it as being a complete disadvantage compared to a HOB filter. Maybe I will further research a sump and toy with that idea I just want to be damn sure with a fail safe for the fail safe.

Thank you for your help and I didn't know that about the anaerobic bacteria which does explain a lot.

I might just need to pony up and buy the best skimmer I can as far as HOB goes.

[cdbias2]

Lifereef overflows are supposed to be the most reliable.
You could also drill the side of the tank for an overflow.

[vyerous]

Yea but it has been up and running for almost 5 months now, from what I understand you need to pretty much tear down your tank to drill it. Not to mention what if it cracked or something detrimental happened while drilling =(

Yea if I went with an overflow it would probably be lifereef. Maybe I should start a new thread on sumps and figure out what I'm working with.

[Sisterlimonpot]

yeah your definitely running a risk drilling into a running tank.. it's possible but I personally wouldn't do it, just for the reasons you mentioned and especially being on the 3rd floor

[rafa316]

Hey there,

This guys is running his tank on a HOB filter, and a simple skimmer. Check it out, its a good example of how carried out people can get with equipment


http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=893433&perpage=25&pagenumber=1 (http://)

Good look

[rafa316]

this is the second part of the thread

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1506957

its a 0G. skimmerless, sumpless LPS and softie tank

good luck

[vyerous]

Wow great find thanks.

[cdbias2]

This thread has jumped off topic but since we are in the beginner forum............
Would you all please notice this guy has NO fish. That's why he can do what he is doing. He has zero bioload from all those coral.

Beginners aren't considering a tank with no fish.

[vyerous]

40G Breeder ~ 256 Watts of HO/T5 lighting, skimmerless mixed reef with mostly LPS and softies, 2 Green Chromies, Yellow Watchman Goby, Blue Orangetail Damsel, Dragonface pipefish.

He does have fish.

[vyerous]

Meh off topic whatever, its an ongoing thing I'm not worried and there aren't rules since no one is upset here.

[cdbias2]

I stand corrected.
Although damsels and a pipefish is hard to fathom.

[vyerous]

Yea I thought he didn't have any either, I still don't understand how his system is working not only the fact that he has tons of softies so close to each other, I mean how does he not have war waging on constantly and everything dying, but how can he run the tank with that much of a bioload that is basically just collecting in his HOB skimmer. It makes me feel like with what I have running plus a protein skimmer I should be in good shape.

[cdbias2]

Seems like there is always one tank that stands out like that and goes against all the rules for every circumstance.
I still dream about having my sell phone tell me what my tank params are real time and giving me a call when something is out of wack.

[Sisterlimonpot]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14381590#post14381590 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by cdbias2
Seems like there is always one tank that stands out like that and goes against all the rules for every circumstance.
I still dream about having my sell phone tell me what my tank params are real time and giving me a call when something is out of wack.
That would be great... and i think I read somewhere that someone on RC created a program that works with Iphone to check parameters and also turn things on and off.

[cdbias2]

Hurry and patent it.

[vyerous]

No kidding, I guess if you have it somehow controlled by a laptop that could be run on a remote desktop you could do that, but on a cell phone I dunno. Probably take 10 days just to load the program, by then you would be home =D

[Sisterlimonpot]

here it is check it out: http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1532894&perpage=25&pagenumber=19

[vyerous]

WOW. Makes me ****ed I bought the G1, then again I don't have a controller anyways.

[drowningdreamer]

You should use a canister filter instead of a HOB power filter. If you want to polish the water then a canister will work alot better because most of them are no-by-pass. No-by-pass is nice because you won't have unpolished water spilling back into the tank when the filters have been exhausted. Also when selecting a canister look for one that will provide the easiest amount of maintenance, and that isn't over complicatedly built.

I'm using a Marineland Magnum 350 for polishing. Has micron cartridge for polishing, Media container for carbon etc..., and Pre-filter that goes over the micron or media container. Only issue was original quick connects and in/outtake where cheap. Made my own quick connects and in/outtakes with PVC valves and fittings.

There's also plenty of other canister choices too if you plan on running chemical media instead of just polishing. Haven't used others so can't really compare.

[vyerous]

Yea I think part of the reason I wanted a canister was to clear up the back of my tank and it have more "filter" power if you will. I'm off of the idea that the filter is really harnessing beneficial bacteria when I know my live rock is doing most of the trick, but I think the canister will be ok so long as I clean it when I do a water change or something. I can't stress enough how much the bubbles and the salt creep from the HOB filters irritate me.

[cdbias2]

That IPhone stuff is too much! Too much I say! I muuust haaaave onnne!

[vyerous]

Haha I love how there is more than one topic going on =D That is really really cool.