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stlrams88
02/17/2009, 07:16 PM
So I was looking at my tank just now and realized all of the fish have ich, except for the spotted mandarin. It is a 24g reef loaded with stuff, and pretty much impossible to catch a fish to quarantine. I have heard high temp will work but will this hurt my corals? I read both of the articles from reefkeeping and cannot figure out a way to get rid of this without killing all my coral and clams and shrimp. Will the high temp work? What about hyposalinity? I will try anything as long as it doesnt hurt my coral. Thanks in advance.

flower
02/17/2009, 07:30 PM
Do a good sized water change.
Good luck. Do you have a UV sterelizer?

Toddrtrex
02/17/2009, 07:30 PM
There is really only one thing that will work --- pull ALL the fish, QT them (( using any of the ick methods )) and letting the main tank go fishless for 6 weeks.

DGee
02/17/2009, 07:33 PM
^^^^ Thats the only real way, or let nature take its course and see if they make it through the ich on their own.

Personally I'd quarantine and let the tank run fallow

stuccodude
02/17/2009, 07:35 PM
this worked for me. soak food in kents garlic extreme asap untill ich is gone. some will say its impossible but whats it gonna hurt. if that dont work then tear down your tank.

DGee
02/17/2009, 07:39 PM
I see that you said again, obviously you have something causing the ich outbreak. Possibly an aggressive fish?

Like I said before, strip the tank of fish treat with copper or one of the many other ways and let it run fallow, its the ONLY way your going to win the battle with ich.

Even if the fish recover from the ich you'll still have it present in the system, next time a fish gets stressed guess what... you'll be posting this again.

stlrams88
02/17/2009, 07:50 PM
No I said again because I had it in my 10g when that was set up. Guess it is QT time.

stlrams88
02/17/2009, 08:07 PM
I have an empty 20G and a cascade 50g filter laying around...is that good enough for a temporary qt tank? Its frustrating because i totally tore apart my tank last week to deal with hair algae, and now i have to do it again. All I have is Garlic Guard (employer only sells seachem stuff), does that have basically the same stuff as garlic xtreme in it? It is only a few spots of ich right now.

When i had it in my 10g i just let it run its course, and the fish recovered, and lived well into my 24 being set up, unfortunately they died from multiple powerhead incidents, however they died ich free.

rkelman
02/17/2009, 08:08 PM
"Do a good sized water change.
Good luck. Do you have a UV sterelizer?"

Neither will do anything. Nor will garlic or ich kick or any other of the snake oils currently on the market do anything.

Its only a 24 g how hard can it possibly be to catch a few fish in a tank that small? QT / Copper or hypo or you'll be fighting outbreaks endlessly. QT all new fish from now on. FWIW I wouldn't QT a Mandarin. The chances of it getting or carrying ich is very slim.

stlrams88
02/17/2009, 08:30 PM
It is a pain because i have a ton of small frags that are not glued down, and moving each one is a pain.

snorvich
02/17/2009, 09:06 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14419160#post14419160 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Toddrtrex
There is really only one thing that will work --- pull ALL the fish, QT them (( using any of the ick methods )) and letting the main tank go fishless for 6 weeks.

Actually, the 99% time period is 11 weeks.

snorvich
02/17/2009, 09:08 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14419780#post14419780 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by stlrams88
It is a pain because i have a ton of small frags that are not glued down, and moving each one is a pain.

Well, the alternative is let the fish die and then let the tank lay fallow for 11 weeks. Your choice.

Toddrtrex
02/17/2009, 09:09 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14420162#post14420162 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by snorvich
Actually, the 99% time period is 11 weeks.

Really? Thanks. Lucky enough I have never had to worry about doing that.

rkelman
02/18/2009, 04:54 PM
"Well, the alternative is let the fish die and then let the tank lay fallow for 11 weeks. Your choice."

Lol. Seriously. How many frags could you possibly have in 24 gallons of water. Suck it up. :)

stuccodude
02/18/2009, 05:56 PM
[QUOTE]<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14419569#post14419569 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by rkelman
[B

Neither will do anything. Nor will garlic or ich kick or any other of the snake oils currently on the market do anything.

like i said many will say it cant work but i had ich so bad it looked like my tangs rolled in salt and within days of garlic it was gone so therefor i can only assume it was the garlic. its been 2 years. it is proven that mosquitos dont like to host people with garlic in there system so why not ich on a host?????its worth a try.

tmz
02/18/2009, 09:16 PM
Treat the fish in qt with copper ,hypo slainity for non resistant ich strains or the tank transfer method. I prefer cupramine treatment for most and tank transfer for those that might be known to be copper sensitive. Leaving the main tank fishless for 6 weeks should take care of it although some cysts have remained viable for 72 days but that was in cold water.

Increasing temperature or hyposalinity in the display will harm your invertebrates and the pod population, sponges and other isotonic creatures(those that can't osmoregualte). Increased temperature will only accelerate the life cycle of the ich and could actually make it worse. Hypo salinity unless it's low enough 1.009 wont do very much at all other than harm desirable creatures.

Freed
02/18/2009, 09:37 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14426630#post14426630 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by stuccodude
[QUOTE]<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14419569#post14419569 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by rkelman
[Bi had ich so bad it looked like my tangs rolled in salt and within days of garlic it was gone so therefor i can only assume it was the garlic.

Do you understand the natural life cycle of ich?

tmz
02/18/2009, 10:50 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14428701#post14428701 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Freed
Do you understand the natural life cycle of ich?

:o I do. fish will clear of spots within a few days of the parasites leaving them to multiply quite naturally without garlic , ginger or other placebos. In my opinion and experience garlic does not cure ich.

timdam
02/18/2009, 10:56 PM
i'm a noobie. but i thought things like CLEANER SHRIMP could eat the ick off of fishes. i must not know anything. someone please inform me....

vmartino
02/18/2009, 11:05 PM
I had a great amount of success in december with an ich outbreak. I had a flame angel, a maroon clown, a lunar wrasse, and a snowflake eel in the tank. The newest was the wrasse and it got ich anyway after i transferred it from my qt. After that the maroon clown and the flame angel got it. So i immediately began slamming garlic guard into all the food i was feeding and supplementing with buffered vitamin c at feedings. Within a week all of the ich was gone. The Coral Banded Shrimp did a hell of a job and the wrasse was eating ich off the others like it was a buffet. My conclusion is that lots of garlic and lots of viatmin c is like steroids. I have never stopped supplementing these products in the food and all of the fish have grown at least 2 inches since that ich outbreak. Their colors are incredible as well.

timdam
02/18/2009, 11:13 PM
so you're suggesting to use garlic guard as a preventative? Like using it before your fishes even get ich?

tmz
02/18/2009, 11:27 PM
Cleaner shrimp don't eat the parasites. When you see the spots ,they are exit wounds and the shrimp are picking the loose flesh .

The wrasse probably got ich because it was in the tank or the qt period was too short.It often hosts unseen in the more vulnerable tissues of the mouth, nostrils and gills of fish that have been exposed and have developed partial immunity. The next fish you introduce will probably get it too.

binyang
02/19/2009, 01:19 AM
what i do is soak food in garlic ,vitachem,& selcon plus get cleaner shrimp,& clearner wrasser
works every time

Mr. Brooks
02/19/2009, 02:11 AM
These are not my words, I copied and pasted it from an article I read.



Marine Ich (Cryptocaryon irritans)

One of the marine aquarist’s devils. So many articles have been written about it. Many are long or are in multiple parts. A lot is known about this marine fish disease because of the many $$$ put into research by the fish farming and aquaculture industries. First discovered (or the better word is 'noticed') in the 1800's and later more understood in the 1900's, we’ve learned about all there is to know about this parasite by the 2000's.

I don’t want to write a long post on Marine Ich (MI) but the reader, in as brief of space as possible, should know some truths. The aquarist 'sees something' and then 'guesses' as to what it means and thus starts another round of rumors. It's almost a type of voodoo. It's easier to listen to a rumor of a short absolute statement then it is to read and understand the results of decades of studies and experiments. It is easier to try and take shortcuts with this disease by believing the parasite to be able or capable to do things or die from things it just can't, then it is to do the work to kill it, control it, or prevent it by the means that are known to work.

It's time to separate out the rumors from the facts and the subjective observations (which start rumors) from actual scientific studies. In bullet form, here’s what is known:


Life and Visuals:

1, The parasite has several ‘stages’ in its life cycle. Cyst in aquarium (usually on substrate, decoration, wall, equipment, or rock) ruptures into free-swimming parasites that burrow into fish, grow into a visible white nodule that is ‘pregnant’ with more parasites, that usually falls off the fish to form a cyst that starts the cycle over again.

2. Only time a human can see this parasite with the naked eye is when it is ‘pregnant’ on the fish and has formed a white nodule. (The white spot is about the size of a grain of table salt or sugar).

3. Parasites that have just burrowed into the fish are not visible until 2.

4. Cycle can be completed in less than 7 days, but usually within 24 days BUT can go as long as 72 days. Literature usually quotes ‘average’ number of days. 72 days is rare; 60 days usually encompasses more than 99.9% of the observations and research.

5. This is not the same as the freshwater disease, Ich (Ichthyophthirius multifilis) but it was named after it?! This leads freshwater aquarists to thinking the wrong things about Marine Ich, adding to the myths and rumors.

6. MI is not very sensitive to temperature changes. That is, increasing the temperature does not significantly decrease the life cycle time. This is not true with Freshwater Ich (which is where this rumor of raising the temperature on a marine aquarium with MI comes from).

7. MI can live and reproduce in temperatures as low as 50F and as high as 90F. Thus temperatures that would kill MI would first kill or severely stress most tropical marine fishes.

8. Spots appear then disappear as MI goes through its cycle. Remember 2. This 'disappearing act' is what leads uninformed aquarists to believe the fish are cured. This is the dumbest thing aquarists can possibly think about this parasite!

9. Parasite likes infecting the fish’s gills. The tissue there has more water passing by so there is an increase in chance the free-swimming parasite will get to the gill. This is one reason why fast breathing (over 80-90 swallows in one minute) is one of the symptoms of possible infection.

10. The parasite burrows into the fish, below the mucous layer and into the skin. (This is why cleaner fish/shrimp can’t get to it in order to remove them from the fish). The second dumbest thing an aquarist can think: I'll get some cleaner fish or cleaner shrimp to remove/eat the parasite. THESE MARINE LIFE DO NOT EAT THE PARASITE NOR WILL FISH OR SHRIMP REMOVE THE PARASITE FROM THE INFECTED FISHES.

11. Parasite is transmitted in water (free-swimming and cyst stages), or by falling off of an infected fish (even one that seems healthy because of 9.). This means that water OR fish from another aquarium can carry the disease to another aquarium.

12. The parasite can infect bony fishes, including eels, sharks, and rays, though many species of fish, like Mandarins, have a good resistance to MI, they can still be infected and can harbor or carry the parasite. Invertebrates, snails, crabs, corals, plants, etc. are not affected/infected by MI, but the MI can be in their water, shells, etc.

13. There is no such thing as a dormant stage for MI. The parasite can’t wait around for another host. It MUST go through its cycle. Dr. Burgess recorded that in the cyst stage, he found the longest existing cyst to last for 60 days before releasing the free-swimming parasites. This is rare but possible.

14. INTERESTING FIND: If no new MI is introduce into an infected aquarium, the MI already there continues to cycle through multiple generations until about 10 to 11 months when the MI has ‘worn itself out’ and becomes less infective. A tank can be free of an MI infestation if it is never exposed to new MI parasites for over 11 months.


Treatments:

1. Hyposalinity - Using a refractometer, hold salinity at 11ppt to 12ppt until 4 weeks after the last spot was seen. (Best to use salinity, but if you use specific gravity, that equates to roughly 1.008 to 1.009 sp. gr. units). Raise salinity slowly and observe fish for 4 more weeks. Hard to control pH and water quality during treatment. This is the least stressful treatment for the fish. See: http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums/...t-process.html

2. Copper treatment - Follow medication recommendations. Can be effective in 2 to 4 weeks of treatment. After treatment, remove all copper and observe fish for 4 more weeks. Copper is a poison to the fish and creates some stress. The fish may stop eating. See end of this post for other things that can go wrong. See: http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums/...-problems.html

3.. Transfer method - Fish is moved from tank to tank to separate the fish from the cysts that fall off and the free-swimming stages of the parasite. Two hospital tanks are needed to perform this treatment. The fish is stressed by having to keep moving it between these hospital tanks.

4. Only the above 3 known cures work almost 100% of the time. Other chemicals will kill the MI parasite, but only in special conditions (not good for the fish) or in lab experiments (not using marine fish). Some chemicals will only kill some of the organisms, letting the others escape death to go on to multiply and infect.

5. Not any of the treatments can be done in a display tank with true live rock. Must be done in a hospital tank or quarantine tank. The hyposalinity and the copper treatment would kill invertebrates, live rock, and other non-fish marine life. Substrates and carbonates interfere with a copper treatment.

6. No known ‘reef-safe’ remedies work consistently. Many aquarists think a particular remedy works when in fact the fish acquire an immunity or defense against the parasite. It’s easy for any manufacturer to have an independent study done on the effectiveness of the ‘reef-safe’ remedy but they don’t because. . .

7. Cleaner shrimp and cleaner wrasses are not known to pick these parasites off of fish. (See 10. above).

8. Freshwater dips can kill some of the parasites on/in the fish, but not all of them because many of the parasites are protected by the fish's skin and mucous layer. (See 10. above).

9. No dip can get rid of these parasites because primarily of 10. above.

10. Let aquarium go fishless (without any foreign saltwater additions (e.g., water from LFS system, water from another tank or system -- use only distilled or RO/DI for evaporation and freshly made, uncontaminated salt water for water changes), without contamination from infected tanks, live rock additions, etc.) for at least 8 weeks and the tank will be free of MI. This 'fallow period' has over a 99.9% chance of success.

11. NEVER combine a copper treatment with a hyposalinity treatment. In hyposaline solutions, copper can be lethal to marine fishes.


Defense and Immunity:

1. The fish’s mucous coating can provide some protection from the parasite. The mucous coating is where some fish immunity develops.

2. When water temperature drops, mucous coating is often reduced or lost in marine fishes, that is why sometimes MI becomes visible on the body of the fish after a sudden drop in temperature. This meant, however, that the disease was present and living in the aquarium, infecting fish without the aquarist having been aware of it.

3. No fish, no matter how good its defense is, can stop being infected. A healthy fish will and can be equally infected as a sick or stressed fish. What happens is the aquarists sees one or more fish with the disease and assumes because none are seen on the other fish in the aquarium that they are 'disease free.' NOT. Aquarists can't always see the parasites. See above top, 2., 3., and 9. All fish in an infected tank require treatment.

4. A weak, stressed, or sick fish will die sooner than a healthy fish, but is no more likely to get infected than the healthy fish.

5. A fish that survives an attack may develop proteins in the mucous coating that will help fend off the parasite (this is a type of immune response). An immune fish will usually not show being infected. Unfortunately. . .(see 6. below). . .

6. An immune fish doesn’t remain immune. Separated from the disease for months, the once immune fish can become MI infected. OR if the immunity weakens, the fish will be attacked.

7. Immunization seems to work, but not affordable or likely available to the hobby for many more decades. The immunization materials are hard to make, expensive, and slow to produce. Immunization usually only works for several months at a stretch.


Subjective and Non-Subjective Observations, Claims, and Common Myths

1. Some Tangs seem more susceptible. True. Their mucous coatings are reduced in thickness and composition. They swim up to 25 miles a day in the ocean in search for food so maybe Mother Nature provided them with this as a means of 'escape.'

2. It goes away on its own. Untrue. Only visible at one stage IF it is on the body or fin of the fish. It’s the life cycle. If it was once seen, then it hasn't gone away -- it's just not visible to the aquarist.

3. It goes away with a ‘reef-safe’ remedy. Untrue. This is one of the biggest and most 'dangerous' of the misrepresentations in the hobby. The aquarist thinks everything is okay when it isn't. What usually has happened is that the parasite has killed the fish it will kill and the rest have developed a resistance or immunity. The parasite is still in the aquarium, possibly infecting the gills of the fish where it can’t be seen.

4. It was gone then when a new fish is added, it is there again. Not true. See 3. It wasn’t gone or the new fish brought in the disease with it. A new addition to an aquarium can be the stress which triggers the other fish to reduce their defense or immunity, thus allow the parasite to 'bloom' to the point where the infection is now visible to the aquarist.

5. The fish lived the last outbreak then died during the second or subsequent outbreak. Can be true. The fish had a resistance or immunity that it lost.

6. It was accurately diagnosed as MI spots, then never showed up again. It wasn’t MI or the fish quickly developed an immediate immunity or resistance, or the fish is still infected in the gills.

7. MI can ‘hang around’ almost unnoticed with just a body spot now and then because it often resides just in the gills. True. So ‘it is gone’ after ‘it was here’ is very unlikely.

8. Aquariums always have MI. Untrue. MI can be kept out of an aquarium. Just quarantine all fish and don’t let non-quarantined livestock get into the aquarium. After keeping thousands of marine fishes, my home aquariums have been free of MI since 1970.

9. Fish always have MI. Untrue. In the wild they often show up to 30% infected (or more) but the wild fish survive minor infections. In the tank the parasite can 'bloom.' In the tank the fish can't get away. The combination of bloom and no escape will overcome the fish. In capture and transportation the fish can share the disease and thus many wild caught marine aquarium fishes do have this parasite, but not all.

10. Like 9. a fish can't be made to be totally rid of MI. Untrue. All marine fish can be cured and rid of any MI infection.

11. Just feed the fish well and/or feed it garlic and it will be okay. Untrue. I compare this approach to this one: "Granny has pneumonia. Let's keep her home rather than take her to the hospital. We'll feed her well with chicken soup and vitamins." Nutrition, foods, vitamins, etc. don't cure an infected fish. An infected fish is sick and is being tortured by the itching and discomfort. It might pull through and obtain Resistance or immunity (see above) but while you sit comfortably in your home, the fish is being stressed by having to contend with a parasite. Don't let this happen to the fish. Cure it!!

12. A new cure has been discovered. Unlikely. If the aquarist thinks they have found a new cure, then have it researched and independently tested. It's easy and cheap. If it is as good as the above 3 then the professional veterinarians, private and public aquariums, fish farms, and I will use it. The aquarist needs to keep the perspective of how devastating this parasite is not to just the hobby but to the whole fish farming industry. Any new way of 100% treatment will make headlines!

13. If the MI can't always be detected, then why bother with a quarantine procedure? In the confines of a small quarantine and being there for no less than 6 weeks, the MI parasite will make itself known because the fish is weakened and the fish can't get away from being re-infected by multiplying MI parasites. In other words, the quarantine procedure instigates a 'bloom' of the parasite which will make it visible to the aquarist.

14. All white nodules fall off the fish and move on to the cyst stage. Untrue. It has been discovered that, on very rare occasions (why we don't know) the white nodule will encyst and rupture while still on the fish.

15. UV and/or Ozone kills MI. Ozone doesn't kill all parasites that pass through the unit, nor does the water treated with ozone kill the parasites. UV only kills the parasites that pass through the unit. Not all MI parasites will pass through the unit, so the UV will not rid an aquarium of MI. A UV can help prevent a 'bloom' of the parasites however, and thus help in its control. UV is not a cure nor a preventative measure for MI.

16. Spots are MI. Untrue. Probably one of the most problematic causes for rumors and myth-information in the hobby is assuming the spot is Marine Ich when it may be one of another few dozen other parasites or conditions (e.g., pimple-like reaction to infection) that look like Marine Ich. The mis-diagnosis is often the cause for claims of what cured MI, when the fish didn't have MI to start with.

17. My LFS quarantines their fishes for 2 weeks and I only buy them to be sure they are healthy and free of MI. Have you been reading the above? The 2 weeks is not long enough. Was the 2 weeks in isolation or is the fish's water mixed with other fish's water? Seeing is not believing, right? LFS employees don't have time to closely observe and study the fishes they have in stock, for a full 6 weeks. The truth is out there. . .Trust no one.


PLEASE DON'T SPREAD RUMORS!

tmz
02/19/2009, 10:49 AM
I agree with much of the above.

My treatment of choice is copper in a chelated form(cupram ine) over hyposalinity. I do not necessarily believe hyposalinity is harmless to the fish. In my it takes too long and is often ineffective, sometimes only slowing the parasite down.

The 11 month expiration of a single strain of ich in the presence of suitable hosts occured in one study( Burgess and Matthews,1995) This was attributed to cell aging in the strain. This may offer some hope for an ifested aquarium but I personally wouldn't count on it.