K.i.s.s.

[plyle02]

As the title goes, Keep It Simple Stupid... I have tried some of the UNLS type systems, most recently full neo-zeo system, and am not here to knock it, but after a major cyano outbreak in the MT, I decided to go back to a simple philosopy of a reefer who used to post around here(Daddyjax), who had a more simplistic approach to the hobby. Daddyjax was known for awesome coloration, as the pictures of his corals would awe many posters on this board. 3 years ago he gave me advice on running bb, and how he ran his systems this way, lots of fish, great skimming, and strong lighting. I changed the tank up yesterday, removed a 2" sandbed, and upped my flow. I am running gfo in a reactor, passive carbon, and use a ATI Bubblemaster 160 on my 40 gallon rimless cube. After 1 day, I see far better polyp extension, and although some corals are a bit on the brown side, I am convinced they will come back.... I just think for me, this is alot less maintenance and allows me to not have to tinker soooo much with all the additives in running the neo-zeo system. Again, no blame towards the Brightwell system, I see many having wonderful results, just too much time in dosing, and I need to have more time to enjoy the tank.... Thanks for checking out my post......
Perry

[Reefcherie]

<i>This thread has been moved to the current forum at request of thread originator.</i>

[SunnyX]

K.I.S.S is the best way to go.

I try and keep everything in my tank as simple as possible and it works great for me. :D

The less parts, dosing, and variables the less problems you will have.

[kaskiles]

What do you use for a simple method to maintain Calcium and Alkalinity?

[plyle02]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14422830#post14422830 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kaskiles
What do you use for a simple method to maintain Calcium and Alkalinity?

I use 2 part by hand, I have a doser that I can hook up while on vacation, but less chance for error by manual dosing, IMO....

[SunnyX]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14422884#post14422884 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by plyle02
I use 2 part by hand, I have a doser that I can hook up while on vacation, but less chance for error by manual dosing, IMO....

I do the same thing. I does once a day of CA and ALK using Randy's Two Part Solution.

In my old tank I used to run a CA Reactor along with a Kalk Stirrer but I get the same results with Two Part.

[plyle02]

SunnyX,
The tank I have is very high-tech, and I wanted to go for those kick*ss crazy colors many get with running UNLS... But remember has everytime DaddyJax would post pictures, it would pretty much end the tread...lol We called him the thread stopper over in the Tampa area, cause no one wanted to post pics after he did.... Funny thing is that he only had lots of well fed fish, and great skimming.... I have also designed my tank to run very low power as gadget free as possible... I do run an ATO though... :)

[SunnyX]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14423001#post14423001 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by plyle02
SunnyX,
The tank I have is very high-tech, and I wanted to go for those kick*ss crazy colors many get with running UNLS... But remember has everytime DaddyJax would post pictures, it would pretty much end the tread...lol We called him the thread stopper over in the Tampa area, cause no one wanted to post pics after he did.... Funny thing is that he only had lots of well fed fish, and great skimming.... I have also designed my tank to run very low power as gadget free as possible... I do run an ATO though... :)

Yeah, he gets some nice colors. Lots of skimming, feeding, lighting, bacteria, and flow will do wonders for your tank. The tech stuff is nice but not necessary.

[capture]

Perry,
Nice post. I'm of the same thought. The simpler the better.
I've always thought this way and recently I started dosing some aminos and my system went haywire. I am also fighting some cyano cause of it. I hate it.
I love what sunnyx does as well. His systems are where I'd like to be soon.
Less can go wrong with a simple system. As much as I envy those with the gadgets. I sort of fear what could go wrong with them as well.

No rights or wrong in this hobby, but I definitely side with your view on this. Hopefully more will chime in and maybe show their systems.

Thanks.

[kaskiles]

Do you guys think Kalk dosing/dripping/top-off via pH monitor is against the KISS paradigm? I'm just asking because I have high indoor air CO2 during most of the year, and it's the best way I can keep my pH up over 8...

[plyle02]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14423073#post14423073 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by capture
Perry,
Nice post. I'm of the same thought. The simpler the better.
I've always thought this way and recently I started dosing some aminos and my system went haywire. I am also fighting some cyano cause of it. I hate it.
I love what sunnyx does as well. His systems are where I'd like to be soon.
Less can go wrong with a simple system. As much as I envy those with the gadgets. I sort of fear what could go wrong with them as well.

No rights or wrong in this hobby, but I definitely side with your view on this. Hopefully more will chime in and maybe show their systems.

Thanks.

Thanks,
I think we started seeing the colorful Euro tanks running t5's and zeovit and that husbandry gained popularity recently/ quickly over here in the US. Unfortunately, they have been at it for years, and have more proven methods of reefkeeping running these type systems. Not saying we are not ready, there are many doing it well, I just think it should be left to those who completely understand, not for the average guy. One difference that I have found is a simplistic method typically yields corals that have a richer color, not quite as pastel like. To each his own, I can honestly say that I have tried these methods, neo-zeo/full system, VSV, and Prodibio, and I feel like the corals were always on the edge, one mistake could seemingly cause a RTN event. Maybe it's just me, and perhaps I was doing something wrong, just think there are alot of people who think that simply adding a drop of this a few drops of that will equal colorful corals... I made a decision to go back to an old school method, a little GFO to keep phosphates at bay, passive carbon in a sock, fat healthy fish, heavy skimming, and an occasional couple of drops of lugols, strontium, potassium, and mag addtions should be more than enough. Weekly 10% water changes and that is it... My camera is charging, as soon as it is ready, I will snap a few pics and share my starting point of my "Old School" return...
Thanks!

[plyle02]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14423101#post14423101 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kaskiles
Do you guys think Kalk dosing/dripping/top-off via pH monitor is against the KISS paradigm? I'm just asking because I have high indoor air CO2 during most of the year, and it's the best way I can keep my pH up over 8...

NO,
Excellent point, I have a window directly behind my tank in the Florida room where my tank resides. I have tons of windows, so kalk dripping is really not required for me. However, those who do have the challenge of keeping PH up, this is an excellent method for stabilization, in fact, I am thinking of going in a kalk drip method vs. the 2 part dosing, or maybe both, just less A&B...

I started this thread cause 2 of my favorite LFS's who have INSANE coloration do not do anything more than powerful lighting, heavy skimming, and kalkwasser. Both of them add pottasium, strontium, and that is it....nothing else...

[SunnyX]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14423101#post14423101 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kaskiles
Do you guys think Kalk dosing/dripping/top-off via pH monitor is against the KISS paradigm? I'm just asking because I have high indoor air CO2 during most of the year, and it's the best way I can keep my pH up over 8...

LOL its not a religion :lmao: :lmao:

There are really no set guidelines. Just keep the tank as natural and as simple to operate as possible.

[imcosmokramer]

I have been dosing 2 part and with the demand on my tank, have been unable to keep up even dosing 20 ml of each part 2-3 times a day. My calcium was never over 390

I added kalk to my ato and it has helped me maintain my calcium at 420 and alk at around 10.

I might go to a CaRX though, just to see if it saves me the work. So far, i am happy with the 2 part + kalk



<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14423250#post14423250 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by plyle02
NO,
Excellent point, I have a window directly behind my tank in the Florida room where my tank resides. I have tons of windows, so kalk dripping is really not required for me. However, those who do have the challenge of keeping PH up, this is an excellent method for stabilization, in fact, I am thinking of going in a kalk drip method vs. the 2 part dosing, or maybe both, just less A&B...

I started this thread cause 2 of my favorite LFS's who have INSANE coloration do not do anything more than powerful lighting, heavy skimming, and kalkwasser. Both of them add pottasium, strontium, and that is it....nothing else...

[GatorWPB]

Sorry that neo zeo didnt work out for you Plyle. Did you ask around to see what resulted in the cyano?
Either way, it sounds like you will find success with the new method. Certainly the neo zeo products or any supplement program (Zeovit, Prodibio, Fauna Marin, Tunze, etc.) require more work. But theres no denying that proper maintenance and simple husbandry practices like youve described have worked for years and will increase likelihood of success.

Post those pics, Id love to see an update of the tank. :cool:

[plyle02]

Here is that photo I said I would add... Notice the bottom is plain glass, the tank sits on foam to level out, you can see where it rests and does not rest on the foam pad beneath...:( My hopes are that corraline will soon take over the bottom, and it won't be as unsightly...
Just tested the water, 2.5ppm on NO3, I will have to make sure and keep a watchful eye so my corals don't brown out.

http://i425.photobucket.com/albums/pp331/plyle02/DSC01443.jpg

[plyle02]

A few more....


http://i425.photobucket.com/albums/pp331/plyle02/DSC01441.jpg

http://i425.photobucket.com/albums/pp331/plyle02/DSC01461.jpg

http://i425.photobucket.com/albums/pp331/plyle02/DSC01457.jpg

http://i425.photobucket.com/albums/pp331/plyle02/DSC01453.jpg

http://i425.photobucket.com/albums/pp331/plyle02/DSC01449.jpg

http://i425.photobucket.com/albums/pp331/plyle02/DSC01447.jpg

http://i425.photobucket.com/albums/pp331/plyle02/DSC01451.jpg

[agsansoo]

Looks great plyle02 ! I remember you from the 'Bare Bottom Club' thread. Just fill the bottom with zoa's like me. :D

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t257/agsansoo/SW-Tank/dsc03336.jpg

[plyle02]

I was working toward a zoo bottom in my previous tank, never really took off, but what a pain in the *ss when I broke the tank down...lol Very cool looking indeed! All my tanks have been bb for the last 3 years except this one, I should have known better. I had to filter the water through a sock to remove detritus... The sandbed was loaded with nasties.... Back to bb! I would only do a ssb if I ever decided for sand again....
Thanks!

[kaskiles]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14423250#post14423250 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by plyle02
<snip>
I started this thread cause 2 of my favorite LFS's who have INSANE coloration do not do anything more than powerful lighting, heavy skimming, and kalkwasser. Both of them add pottasium, strontium, and that is it....nothing else...

What two LFS's? I make it over the Orlando area now and then, and try to check them out. Just went to WWC last weekend.

[plyle02]

WWC is one of them,
The other is in Tampa....Coral Corral... FAOIS is also an outstanding LFS in Tampa, not sure exactly of their husbandry approach as far as calcium, alk, and mag go, but I am quite sure very similair...

Victor at WWC uses only Kalkwasser, he uses 20k radium bulbs...
Peire at Coral Corall also uses on Kalkwasser... 20k radium bulbs.

Seems to be alot of similairity between their approaches, High kelvin bulbs, massive skimming, and lots of feeding. This is really what prompted me to go more simple, that and a cyano outbreak... No blame on the UNLS approach, just seems to me that all the additional products were not helping, I could be wrong, but it is a hard pill to swallow when you devote so much time in tweaking and dosing, when many are having success just doing things simple....

[isseym328]

Hey plyle02 that is an awsome looking tank. I really like the shallow look so that you can view all of your sps top down.

I also go by the kiss method. Heavy skimming, dosing, 20k radium, and regular water changes at least once a week (at about 10 percent) if not twice. Only thing I don't have is the bb. Algae is kept to a minimum with some maintenance every few days.

I might have missed this but how much flow do you have in your tank? And what do you use for flow? Right now in my 60g cube I am using 2 koralia 4's and a old powerhead.

[kaskiles]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14426040#post14426040 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by agsansoo
Looks great plyle02 ! I remember you from the 'Bare Bottom Club' thread. Just fill the bottom with zoa's like me. :D


How do you vacuum clean the bottom if it is full of zoas?

[plyle02]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14427665#post14427665 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by isseym328
Hey plyle02 that is an awsome looking tank. I really like the shallow look so that you can view all of your sps top down.

I also go by the kiss method. Heavy skimming, dosing, 20k radium, and regular water changes at least once a week (at about 10 percent) if not twice. Only thing I don't have is the bb. Algae is kept to a minimum with some maintenance every few days.

I might have missed this but how much flow do you have in your tank? And what do you use for flow? Right now in my 60g cube I am using 2 koralia 4's and a old powerhead.

Thanks for the compliment about my tank!
As for flow, I will outline my approach:
1. Korillia 2 buried under the main reef down on the glass which keeps detritus from builing underneath the main structure.
2. Tunze 1055 on a multi controller pulsing on right side at an angle against the glass pushing detritus into the main coloumn.
3. Korillia 1 underneath the Tunze 1055 on the very bottom of right side, pushing detritus away from the back of the tank.
4. Tunze 1025(modded) on the back bottom of the tank, pushing detritus forward as to not settle on the floor of the back left side.
5. Eheim 1262 dual return, which is about 3/4 of maximum potential, want to keep the water around 450-500gph to allow my skimmer to keep up.

So far this seems to keep me from having detritus settling on any part of the bottom or on the reef, keeping it suspended for my skimmer to remove. I do not have a sock, I rely on a sponge to help trap detritus in the sump, and have additional live rock there in the dark to allow for sponge growth.

Side note: I have experienced unbelievable PE since the switch, I suspect the corals have more in the water column to feed on, which I hope stimulates growth and color.

[OwenInAZ]

I can't imagine doing anything but simply in my tank... I'm not running bare bottom, in fact I have a fairly deep sand bed in the main tank. but the sump consists of a small tank to house a skimmer, a return pump, and some LR. Heavy lighting, skimmer running full open, regular water changes have kept the algae to a minimum -- I have some GHA, but no cyano knock on wood. Having more things in the tank is just more things that can break, IMO, and often result in more maintenance not less.

[plyle02]

Thanks for the reply OwenInAZ,
I decided to go back to bb due to maintenance being a bit more easy, DSB really works well, Emster/Emmet runs a DSB, and has one of the most beautiful tanks around...last month TOTM.... I think it is just a matter of preference to me, I do plan on adding a RDSB to assist in nitrate control, just still planning on how I will set it up....

[kaskiles]

Do you guys think organic carbon dosing violates the KISS principle if it would eliminate two separate mechanisms used to control phosphate (1 GFO) and nitrate (2 extra live rock), into a single existing one (skimmer)? I know this is probably system specific, have to have just the right bio load, water volume, etc...

[plyle02]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14434747#post14434747 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kaskiles
Do you guys think organic carbon dosing violates the KISS principle if it would eliminate two separate mechanisms used to control phosphate (1 GFO) and nitrate (2 extra live rock), into a single existing one (skimmer)? I know this is probably system specific, have to have just the right bio load, water volume, etc...

KISS for me means easier more natural approach. Violates, I would say no, whatever works for you. I have tried c-dosing and IMO, why strip the water to put more of what you stripped back in.... I know you can target specifically what you want to add back to the tank, but KISS for me really means, allow your system to do the work, not additives... This is no phenomenon, just a more old school approach to the hobby.... GL

[60Cubed]

I have a lot of equipment running my tank but I would call my approach simple. I run a cal and kalk reactor. I dose mag via a dosing pump. Do a 10% weekly waterchange. I feed every day and dose oyster eggs every other day. And skim like crazy!

I don't think equipment means complicated. But from what I understand Zeo is a lot of husbandry. And def not simple! I want my tank as stress free as possible. Equipment helps do that IMO.

[plyle02]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14437236#post14437236 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by 60Cubed
I have a lot of equipment running my tank but I would call my approach simple. I run a cal and kalk reactor. I dose mag via a dosing pump. Do a 10% weekly waterchange. I feed every day and dose oyster eggs every other day. And skim like crazy!

I don't think equipment means complicated. But from what I understand Zeo is a lot of husbandry. And def not simple! I want my tank as stress free as possible. Equipment helps do that IMO.

No debate here, no knocking your method, I have started with oyster eggs too... Keep in mind, I run a 40 gallon tank, IMO, nothing 2 part cannot acheive in terms of ca/alk/ mag... Yes, certain equipment, if maintained, does help, no debate here.... It seems to me, that the less plugs, plugged in, the better, at least for me... I run an ATO, and that is more than enough for me in terms of consistency, other than that, nothing I cannot do by hand.... To each his own.... 60 Cubed, your tank is beautiful, keep up the great work!

[OwenInAZ]

I think external reactors might violate the KISS principle ;) Nothing wrong with them per se, but I feel like simple should mean simple plumbing as well as simple feeding/lighting/whatever. Again, for me, more things plugged in just means more things that can break down, trip my circuit, or require maintenance. I'd rather spend my money on cool things to look at :)

As for carbon dosing, for me it makes more sense to address the root cause of excess nutrients rather than the symptoms. The need for carbon dosing probably arises from excessive nutrient introduction and/or insufficient nutrient export.

[Todd March]

It amuses me when anyone refers to GFO's as "old school"...

I think Zeovit and vodka dosing predate GFO's in the hobby...

[Todd March]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14438125#post14438125 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by OwenInAZ
...The need for carbon dosing probably arises from excessive nutrient introduction and/or insufficient nutrient export....

For me, carbon dosing (Zeovit) is my nutrient export game plan. But I guess I do know what you mean—all these posts by desperate unprepared reefers who just start dumping Smirnoff into their tanks to make the Salifert test results go down, or make the waving hair algae go away, or make the tan-lilac valida have a purple coloration stronger than an easter egg...

[plyle02]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14438577#post14438577 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Todd March
It amuses me when anyone refers to GFO's as "old school"...

I think Zeovit and vodka dosing predate GFO's in the hobby...

Todd March,

So,
I knew there would be at least one Zeovit/ UNLS reefer that would get offended by this thread, and quite honestly it makes me laugh! Your tank is sweet bro, not knocking your system, read this entire thread, don't make an assumption of my comments based on one post, take the time to read... When I started keeping sps 3 years ago, this board was loaded with threads about the use of GFO, NOT ZEOVIT! Zeovit was little discussed, while the Euros were, and still are light years ahead in the hobby. So, I guess I should have been more specific concerning the use of the term "Old School", I really mean "Old School" for me.... I must agree, I used to be an over-zealous reefer looking to UNLS systems as the answer for coloration, again, please read above posts.... Todd, I have read your threads, posts, seen your pics of your zeovit tank, and I give you a huge thumbs up! Very nice indeed.... Read through my thread, and you will see I carefully express my personal failures running these methods, not once do I choose to offend those who do... I continued to have issues with PE, and more importantly STN from the base up, which may coincide with WBD, which may be linked to overdosing carbon sources. So, now my corals are recovering, my PE is 2-3 times it was, and I am simply sharing a story of some great advice I got, from a great reefer, several years ago... GL, and I sincerely hope you have continued success in the hobby!
Perry

[250G]

What he said. :thumbsup:

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14422778#post14422778 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by SunnyX
K.I.S.S is the best way to go.

I try and keep everything in my tank as simple as possible and it works great for me. :D

The less parts, dosing, and variables the less problems you will have.

[Todd March]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14439077#post14439077 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by plyle02
Todd March,

So,
I knew there would be at least one Zeovit/ UNLS reefer that would get offended by this thread, and quite honestly it makes me laugh! Your tank is sweet bro, not knocking your system, read this entire thread, don't make an assumption of my comments based on one post, take the time to read... When I started keeping sps 3 years ago, this board was loaded with threads about the use of GFO, NOT ZEOVIT! Zeovit was little discussed, while the Euros were, and still are light years ahead in the hobby. So, I guess I should have been more specific concerning the use of the term "Old School", I really mean "Old School" for me.... I must agree, I used to be an over-zealous reefer looking to UNLS systems as the answer for coloration, again, please read above posts.... Todd, I have read your threads, posts, seen your pics of your zeovit tank, and I give you a huge thumbs up! Very nice indeed.... Read through my thread, and you will see I carefully express my personal failures running these methods, not once do I choose to offend those who do... I continued to have issues with PE, and more importantly STN from the base up, which may coincide with WBD, which may be linked to overdosing carbon sources. So, now my corals are recovering, my PE is 2-3 times it was, and I am simply sharing a story of some great advice I got, from a great reefer, several years ago... GL, and I sincerely hope you have continued success in the hobby!
Perry

I wasn't offended, pyle, believe me... I still know and see plenty of tanks run "old school" around Los Angeles (though they are getting less and less), but to me old school means fuges with heavy macro growth (even EcoSystems Mud), Plenums, maybe DSB's. But not GFO's (or even PhosGuard)...

A little over four years ago, Zeovit was not a popular word around here, and all of Zeo users (as well as the Zeo sponsor and their paid forum) left in mass exodus to another site; that's why Zeo usage wasn't really discussed here on RC much for a few years (but that seems to be changing). But it wasn't too long after Zeo and carbon dosing started to take off, that Rowaphos hit the market, the first GFO. Previous to that, many were using PhosGuard and other aluminum based PO4 absorbers, but some odd adverse things happened with some corals for many with these products—some speculated that they were releasing aluminum back into the water...? The introduction of GFO's (Rowaphos) was a real leap forward in terms of mechanical PO4 absorbers...

I use Zeo and like it, but I am really not a Zeo-fanatic. I have been around for too long and enjoy seeing diversity too much. I am glad that you have found something that works well for you. It's just the terminology that I posted about...

[plyle02]

Todd March,
Very well said, thanks for the kind words, and what you do and have done for the hobby! There are so many ways to skin a cat in this hobby, and certainly many ways to yeild great results. As I see many reefers, specifically new posters, maybe not new to the hobby, looking for "color" solutions, I fear many want a shortcut to great results, let's face it, nothing comes easy in this hobby... I will try and keep this thread updated to share my results, perhaps prove coloration "can" occur from using more simple methods. At the end of the day, I think we all are trying our best to provide near perfect conditions to our inhabitants, so it's all good.... Thanks again!

[OwenInAZ]

pyle -- I do feel that a lot of folks use the expensive and complicated stuff to shortcut their way into a nice tank -- a lack of patience if you will. You're right, things take a long time to do right in this hobby, if someone who has been around a while tries out a calc reactor or something that's one thing. But when a newbie gets in and thinks he or she has to have all the latest and greatest gadgets to be successful, I think that's a problem and that person won't be around for long.

[plyle02]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14446121#post14446121 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by OwenInAZ
pyle -- I do feel that a lot of folks use the expensive and complicated stuff to shortcut their way into a nice tank -- a lack of patience if you will. You're right, things take a long time to do right in this hobby, if someone who has been around a while tries out a calc reactor or something that's one thing. But when a newbie gets in and thinks he or she has to have all the latest and greatest gadgets to be successful, I think that's a problem and that person won't be around for long.

I hear you bro... I mean, I hear people setting up SPS tanks, never had a SW tank, and jump right in with an unestablished tank, thinking an innovative system, or gadgets will allow them to be the exception. Then, I see many threads, "Please Help", "Emergency", "Bleaching", "What's Wrong with my SPS", and of course "Help with Colors"... When you ask something like what is your PO4, a reply back is "what is that"....? It just sucks to see beautiful corals being trashed for unjustly cause. SPS to me is the pinnacle of the hobby, not to be ventured by a novice, although they are attractive, and sps tanks are IMO the best, it should be left for those who completely understand husbandry, have read a book or 2, research these forums, and have a great game plan going in... Just take a break from this forum, log back in in a day or 2, and look at the thread topics..... Mind-boggling....:confused:

[Todd March]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14447371#post14447371 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by plyle02
I hear you bro... I mean, I hear people setting up SPS tanks, never had a SW tank, and jump right in with an unestablished tank, thinking an innovative system, or gadgets will allow them to be the exception. Then, I see many threads, "Please Help", "Emergency", "Bleaching", "What's Wrong with my SPS", and of course "Help with Colors"... When you ask something like what is your PO4, a reply back is "what is that"....? It just sucks to see beautiful corals being trashed for unjustly cause. SPS to me is the pinnacle of the hobby, not to be ventured by a novice, although they are attractive, and sps tanks are IMO the best, it should be left for those who completely understand husbandry, have read a book or 2, research these forums, and have a great game plan going in... Just take a break from this forum, log back in in a day or 2, and look at the thread topics..... Mind-boggling....:confused:

Great post, pyle, I like SO hear you...! :thumbsup:

But with that said, the hobby is different—faster—these days. Only 5 years ago, it was hard to add Acros to a tank before 6 months (and some pros recommended a year!)—it took that long for a plenum or DSB or macros to get established and then slowly lower nutrients; you just had to pace yourself or the corals would die (TN) when added too soon. GFO's and carbon dosing can now do this in a few weeks a lot of the time, and I am often amazed by experienced reefers who upgrade to a larger tank, and add new rock and existing Acros all within a couple of weeks! But the problem remains that it still is not a color by numbers affair. Like Pyle says, research and learn before shelling out for delicate Acros...!

[plyle02]

Todd March,
Also a very good point concerning newer technology...Cheers! I hope others can learn from some of our mistakes, and propel the hobby to be better, ultimately for our reef inhabitants... I truly believe in "paying it forward"...
Regards....
Perry

[gasman059]

I've had tanks every possible way conciebable.

Now IMO there's just no way I would do a tank w/o the best equipment possible PERIOD.

And I mean every single gadget that will simplify my chores. Yes more things to fail but then again a simple tank has way too many chores that can and will cause man made( iatrogenic) mistakes.

So I'll take the high end approach since I've done it every other possible way from UG filters to plenums and so forth.

skimmer-gfo reactor-denitrator-calcium reactor-dosing pumps- auarium controller- auto water changes -u name it .
No zeo just good old fashion fish poop for colors.

[plyle02]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14452057#post14452057 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by gasman059
I've had tanks every possible way conciebable.

Now IMO there's just no way I would do a tank w/o the best equipment possible PERIOD.

And I mean every single gadget that will simplify my chores. Yes more things to fail but then again a simple tank has way too many chores that can and will cause man made( iatrogenic) mistakes.

So I'll take the high end approach since I've done it every other possible way from UG filters to plenums and so forth.

skimmer-gfo reactor-denitrator-calcium reactor-dosing pumps- auarium controller- auto water changes -u name it .
No zeo just good old fashion fish poop for colors.

Gas...
Well said, you know I have been an admirer for quite some time, you and Daddyjax had the philosophy that inspired me which is quite simple... Gadgets, a ATO is a must for me, my tank is only 40gallons, so no need for a CA reactor, controller, and other ones making life simple... What inspired this thread was on the first page, paying tribute to lots of well fed fish, heavy skimming and strong lighting, and of course a personal failure of running UNLS... Some have taken KISS to be there own, which I see their point, mine was really just speaking mainly towards coral health and color... When you get to a certain level in terms of your tank size and investment, depending on your demanding schedule, in some cases gadgets become a major asset... I was waiting for you to chime in....lol... Thanks for your thoughts, much appreciation!

[gasman059]

They calld fish tanks for a reason LOL
ULNS not for me

[Todd March]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14452057#post14452057 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by gasman059
I've had tanks every possible way conciebable.

Now IMO there's just no way I would do a tank w/o the best equipment possible PERIOD.

And I mean every single gadget that will simplify my chores. Yes more things to fail but then again a simple tank has way too many chores that can and will cause man made( iatrogenic) mistakes.

So I'll take the high end approach since I've done it every other possible way from UG filters to plenums and so forth.

skimmer-gfo reactor-denitrator-calcium reactor-dosing pumps- auarium controller- auto water changes -u name it .
No zeo just good old fashion fish poop for colors.

I loved my RK2 controller for the first 3 months I used it on my tank—wonderfully to have everything automated (including 2-Part from peri dosing pumps) in one central station; gone were the non-illuminated Pinpoint pH monitor, and the bulky timers for lights and fans, and the powerstrips and the adapters—the clutter was banished! I no longer had to head deep into the cabinet and awkwardly work to change timers and plugs...!

Then at 3 months old, the pH monitor stopped working, and I had to disconnect the controller, hook everything up to bulky timers and adapters, using powerstrips, and send the controller back to DA to be fixed (no loaners)... There I was, controller gone, back to what I had always known, manually running my tank...

I am a fan of modern technology for the reef, but after the controller incident, I see clearly the dark side when automation fails... I also declined on a Bubble King skimmer—no fancy Red Dragon pumps with specialized expensive parts, thank you. I choose an ATB with an Eheim; if the Eheim fails for some odd reason, I can have an entirely new replacement pump within a few hours from LFS's, or even cheaper overnight from Marine Depot (also local).

So the controller and dosing pumps are grand, and while it works I am still enchanted with my controller, but I do hear what pyle speaks of—there really, really is something real-world beneficial to keeping things simple....

[plyle02]

I look forward to the manual dosing each morning for ca and alk...2 part if you will... I have the ability to automate just choose not to... As an update, I am seeing a little growth over the last few days, very good PE during the day, but sick PE at night, complete darkness, no moonlight, very little ambient light. The fact that I have PE 24/7 leads me to believe the corals are getting more food, which is making them grow. As far as color, not much change, the system is still changing from the previous setup, so I do expect a slight setback as I am coming off a UNLS type system. More updates to come, I will post more pics early this week....
Perry

[Todd March]

Perry, I don't understand where more food is coming from...? Did you lose/change some mechanical filtration as well...?

[plyle02]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14457981#post14457981 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Todd March
Perry, I don't understand where more food is coming from...? Did you lose/change some mechanical filtration as well...?

Todd,
I removed the sandbed, where I suspect detritus was settling... Now the pooh stays more suspended as I ramped up the flow to support a better bb approach. I have also increased fish feedings to 2 times per day vs once per day. So, indirectly the corals are getting more food as fish waste has increased. The skimmer was upgraded a week or so before the change, went from a Euro-reef cs6-3 recriculating to an in sump BM 160. Since the change, I do not have room for a filter sock to trap detritus, so it seems to travel through the sump, at least that not collected by the skimmer(set wet btw)... I do have a sponge to help decrease micro-bubbles and catch some detritus, but invaribly some does make it through... The only problem I forsee is that I will probably see NO3 increase. PO4 is still very low, of course due to running GFO...

[corvettecris]

I have a friend that has tried various approaches, and has had great success with his latest, which is almost exactly as you describe. No sand, high flow, powerful skimmer, and good lights.

Oddly, I have another friend with nearly zeo-looking colors, but he has a sand bed. He manages to keep it clean via methods unknown to myself (maybe very light bioload is his key)

I have been considerign emulating this since I have been battling nutrients a little and my fat anthias do not like to be on a diet.

I just can decided if I could stand a sandless tank. I like the look, and have considered just running a ~1-2" sandbed, but I suspect that even this is too much for this method to work. THe detritus has to be effectively removed before it decays, right?

I maybe far from KISS, (I do run a CA ractor, controller, and a Kalk reactor, and have tried VSV dosing with ok results) I would like to streamline the system at least a little and eliminate the need for daily dosing.

Any other key points to consider?

[plyle02]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14461955#post14461955 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by corvettecris
I have a friend that has tried various approaches, and has had great success with his latest, which is almost exactly as you describe. No sand, high flow, powerful skimmer, and good lights.

Oddly, I have another friend with nearly zeo-looking colors, but he has a sand bed. He manages to keep it clean via methods unknown to myself (maybe very light bioload is his key)

I have been considerign emulating this since I have been battling nutrients a little and my fat anthias do not like to be on a diet.

I just can decided if I could stand a sandless tank. I like the look, and have considered just running a ~1-2" sandbed, but I suspect that even this is too much for this method to work. THe detritus has to be effectively removed before it decays, right?

I maybe far from KISS, (I do run a CA ractor, controller, and a Kalk reactor, and have tried VSV dosing with ok results) I would like to streamline the system at least a little and eliminate the need for daily dosing.

Any other key points to consider?

ssb would require a level of maintenance as would running bb. I like the system having nutrients in, and nice having a regime to quickly exit excess nutrients. A powerful skimmer allows that, if tuned in properly... So, more intense lighting, more fish feedings, powerful skimming, balanced parameters, could yield nice coloration... Time will only tell...

All points considered, I would do what is easiest for you, and your schedule, KISS is relavite in terms of your approach. For me it meant coloration without having to run UNLS, right or wrong, just taking a different approach. Some consider gadgets as possible failing points, where some think most necessary. Some think dsb, bb, ssb, or zeo, vodka, vsv, prodibio, u name it, but each has great possibilities with a consistent approach. I thought bb, lots of nutrients suspended in the water column, increased lighting, and skimming will work nicely, so far so good.... When something is not working, create a new game plan, give it a shot, and see what happens....
Perry