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narwal
02/20/2009, 01:38 AM
Can anyone explain to me why saltwater aquaria are so much more difficult to maintain than freshwater?

I've just gotten into this hobby and it blows my mind how much is involved. Why?

I have had freshwater tanks (mainly for my young kids), and it was such a breeze! I had a tank with an under gravel filter and a little one with a mesh and carbon. Lots of plants and livestock and I never tested anything. Added tap water with chlorine removal when it needed topping up. That's all.

AND.......I had fish that lived far too long. FIVE years for some Tetra's! Moved the tank once, neglected it for 2 months another time (divorce) and I'm sure the kids over fed it daily.

Yet you just couldn't kill anything.

Are freshwater fish the cockroaches of the water world?

dougie
02/20/2009, 04:19 AM
well to put it blunt, we have to try and replicate a coral reef, one of the most pristein places on earth, not just a freshwater stream prob made up of mostly rainwater.

dendro982
02/20/2009, 05:42 AM
I wouldn't say, that keeping marine tanks is more difficult, than FW ( apart from additional work of mixing salt and measuring salinity and alkalinity). It seems to me to be as true, as popular view, that keeping corals is more difficult, than the fish :)

I'm FW loser, have built-in incapability to deal with sand or gravel (in both FW and SW), despite knowing the theory what should be done. Planted tanks ended looking as pictures of underworld, despite CO2 injections.

But: having reputation of difficult, non-photosynthetic corals and fine filter feeding invertebrates are alive and kicking in my care, some reproduce, some grow, sps and clams grow fast, even algae without CO2 looks fresh and good. Weaning the difficult fish, with two exceptions of the same species, was almost effortless.

Note, that marine fish will live as long as FW, unless they are frogfish.
And cost of salt and its delivery will always be present, if you have a big tank. Place to mix saltwater (trashcan, barrel - one or two). One more important factor for me: fish incompatibility and necessity to find the aggressor another home, this is not easy even offering it for free.

Look at the bright side: if you kept FW tank, it was easy for you, and tetras lived long - marine tank, considering cost of salt involved - should be a breeze for you (but don't blame be, if my assumption appears to be wrong).

If you are not living near the clean sea shore and able to dive and see sea wonders at will, marine tank allows you to watch impossible for most of us during most of our lifetimes wonders: I'm not exaggerating. Colors, shapes, functions - these of saltwater inhabitants are so beyond our everyday life, that it is worth to explore it.

Back to the business: how much is involved.
- Water - for both. Add mixing salt and measuring salinity for SW.
- Tests - for both. Salinity and alkalinity for SW. Many reefers stop testing many parameters with time, unless something changes.
- Problems, like diatoms, red slime, dinoflagellates, ich. If you were able to deal with the same problems (or didn't have them) - you have the same chances with similar problems in saltwater.
- If you wasn't able to kill anything in FW, unlikely you will kill anyone in SW - unless you have a really bad LFS nearby, with infected tanks.

I believe, you will be just fine with marine tank, maybe even better :)
Damselfishes and sps are cockroaches of the world.

Heinz
02/20/2009, 05:57 AM
FW, are more hardy, do to the fact that those fish can handle more up and down in parameter,

SW , parameters are more stable, which can be a chalenge,

but having said that, if you keep your parameter stable, you will be good to go


check out the TOTM here on RC, that will give you a lot of info and help you to get a running system

faze07hd
02/20/2009, 06:37 AM
It is difficult but at the same time, its a challenge to have "the perfect reef"... If your like me who loves a good challenge, it could be very rewarding. Some people spend their whole time in the hobby trying to get to that goal and sometimes never get to it.

john rochon
02/20/2009, 06:55 AM
heres my take.

SW.
COST
PARAMETERS
TOTAL TANK CRASHES DUE TO HUMAN ERROR
REDBUGS
AEFW
PLANARIA
HAIR ALGEA
CYNO
DINOFLAGELLATES
PROPER FEEDING
NUTRIENT CONTROL
NUDIBRANCHES
HUMIDITY [BIGGER TANKS]
CYNO CAUGHT FISH

the list goes on and on. SW and especially reef tanks are alot more challenging than a freshwater tank. granted there are different levels in FW but you get the idea.

TP123
02/20/2009, 07:58 AM
Some of it depends.

If you just want a SW tank with fish only, it isn't that hard. Not much different than a FW tank, and it is easier than a high growth, planted FW tank.

SW fish and inverts are more stringent in their stability needs, as the ocean's temp and makeup do not change quickly. However, most fish can handle small changes without trouble. It is when you go to corals that you get into the complex systems as they need very stable parameters and have some unique needs (lighting, flow, etc.)

Klaus777
02/20/2009, 08:23 AM
Saltwater creatures are more sensitive to change than freshwater creatures. A good example of why this is, is that freshwater species live in small bodies of water (in comparison the the ocean) so fluctuations in the water are more common and more drastic. The freshwater species have evolved to be more resistant because of this constant changing in their environment. Whereas the ocean doesn't fluctuate nearly as much so the saltwater species haven't required to evolve that way and are more sensitive.

narwal
02/20/2009, 08:42 AM
Thanks. I think the explanation about the volume of the oceans and stability makes a lot of sense. We all know how the health of corals is a very good indicator of the water quality of oceans.

I still have one grossly overstocked and overplanted 10 gallon FW tank which is doing marvelously. It got this way because 2 -10 gal FW tanks were combined.

I started the remaining 10 gal as a SW tank and it went beautifully. Sadly, my addiction escalated to a 60 gallon habit. (-;

That is going well too, but I'm still trying to fine tune the water chemistry and quality. It's a good thing that I like challenging things.

VacavilleFC3S
02/20/2009, 09:15 AM
i work at a local pet store the way i explain it to customers is freshwater= taking care of fish saltwater=taking care of an eco-system,

Jenisiz
02/20/2009, 04:25 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14439842#post14439842 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by VacavilleFC3S
i work at a local pet store the way i explain it to customers is freshwater= taking care of fish saltwater=taking care of an eco-system,

Excellent example....

TheORKINMan
02/20/2009, 05:30 PM
I would disagree that salt is harder to take care of in general. Try taking care of freshwater fish that are as colorful, unique or expensive as saltwater and you'll find it requires just as much maintenance. The reason freshwater is "easier" is that 99% of the time people buy the easiest fish to keep and nothing else. Try keeping a tank full of damsels and nothing else and I bet SW will be easy too.

Take a peek at care requirements for FW species like the elephant nose fish, hillstream loaches, high end African cichlids, dwarf south american cichlids, discus and such and you'll find it'll be quite a handful as well. If you have a heavily planted tank you have to think about Iron supplementation, pruning, possibly a CO2 system. Then there are freshwater inverts like Crystal shrimp, cleaner clams and crayfish which have their own requirements. Pest bluegreen algae which NOTHING eats and usually greater % water changes more frequently then salt.

narwal
02/20/2009, 06:39 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14442866#post14442866 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Jenisiz
Excellent example....

I use this one a lot. Freshwater is to Saltwater as NASCAR is to F1 as Checkers are to Chess.

narwal
02/20/2009, 06:46 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14443313#post14443313 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by TheORKINMan
I would disagree that salt is harder to take care of in general. Try taking care of freshwater fish that are as colorful, unique or expensive as saltwater and you'll find it requires just as much maintenance. The reason freshwater is "easier" is that 99% of the time people buy the easiest fish to keep and nothing else. Try keeping a tank full of damsels and nothing else and I bet SW will be easy too.
.

Hmmm...I totally disagree. I doubt that the care required to keep any fish has to do with it's color (okay - maybe diet), but certainly not uniqueness or cost (which is directly related to uniquness or scarcity). Perhaps you have confused fish with women?

My experience with both is that freshwater parameters are much more forgiving than saltwater. You can keep a goldfish in a jar or a Beta in a glass for a long time. Screw up the salinity and you will kill live rock.

TheORKINMan
02/20/2009, 07:14 PM
Again I'm not talking about bettas or goldfish. Try doing that with a discus and it'll die just as fast as a saltwater fish

jterrell
02/20/2009, 10:44 PM
I agree with orkinman. My joke to people is I can grow a full on reef but I can't keep guppies alive. I have had many a discus tank and they are harder to keep than coral IMO.

Klaus777
02/20/2009, 10:52 PM
Relax, nobody here is disputing that there are in fact freshwater fish that are super sensitive as saltwater fish (we all know they are there). But the simple fact that the average saltwater fish compared to the average freshwater fish is more sensitive to change in it's environment. That is the only point attempting to be made. Therefore as a whole, especially when trying to raise corals with these fish, this is an absolute truth.

Jenisiz
02/20/2009, 10:53 PM
Think of a common FW fish and then a common SW fish....which costs more to maintain. Which is more sensitive. If you ask me, the Chromis is quite a challenge compared to a guppy...

TheORKINMan
02/20/2009, 11:02 PM
On the flip side how many people who are as into FW as many here are in to SW keep guppies? I know I don't. I keep an elephant nose fish that requires a special diet and has other special considerations because it's a scaleless fish, a breeding pair of double orange apistogrammas which require another set of special considerations, and am shopping around for a horse faced loach and an anableps who both bring additional special needs all in the same tank.

Between my SW and FW tanks I'd contend as far as actual physical work, my FW tank requires more, simply because of the 25% weekly water changes and the plant pruning, which can be a long and tedious process in heavily planted tanks.

Jenisiz
02/20/2009, 11:11 PM
Your speaking of difficult fish and planted setups...I'm just saying a basic setup and basic run of the mill petco fish. I've kept FW fish and switched over to SW for the coral. I'll admit, planted FW tanks can be a b!tch at times...but so can coral. Overall, imho..this will be a never ending debate. It's all based off of opinions and opinions are only as good as those who've experienced things from their own perspectives...like life, you see and take only what you want to.

Klaus777
02/20/2009, 11:11 PM
Easy my friend. You have crossed the line between the difficulty of maintaining parameters and the physical work to keep a tank in presentable order. I know this because I have kept a heavily planted tank before and gave it up for the reef. I must say my work load has changed but only for the tasks at hand, not the time involved.

Klaus777
02/20/2009, 11:13 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14445833#post14445833 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Jenisiz
Overall, imho..this will be a never ending debate. It's all based off of opinions and opinions are only as good as those who've experienced things from their own perspectives...like life, you see and take only what you want to.

Agreed.

TheORKINMan
02/20/2009, 11:17 PM
Oh no I agree that SW requires a lot of time and maintenance, but I think advanced FW gets a bad rap and is very poorly understood because of the PetCo's/PetsMarts out there so I'm just sticking up for it ;)

Jenisiz
02/20/2009, 11:20 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14445866#post14445866 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by TheORKINMan
Oh no I agree that SW requires a lot of time and maintenance, but I think advanced FW gets a bad rap and is very poorly understood because of the PetCo's/PetsMarts out there so I'm just sticking up for it ;)

True...and in your defense, I've never had to trim my corals as much as FW plants...I wish it was the other way around. If it was, I wouldn't get a face full of moths when I open my wallet....

TheORKINMan
02/20/2009, 11:22 PM
Just for fun btw, my male double orange apistogramma :D finnage is bright as a SW fish

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n224/theorkinmanbucket/apisto.jpg

Jova
02/21/2009, 12:14 AM
To me, the big difference is the cost. A close friend of mine once said: "When a fresh-water fish dies, you say: "Hmm" and flush it down the toilet. When a salt-water fish dies, you say "$*@&#", and you hold a funeral."

Klaus777
02/21/2009, 09:33 AM
My nemesis was the gold nugget pleco. I had many other "designer" pleco's but that was the one that I just couldn't keep no matter how hard I tried.

synofreak
02/21/2009, 01:24 PM
FW exp= 7yrs Breeding African Cichlids and Syno catfish
SW exp 2.5+yrs/1+yr reef
Both types of fish CAN tolerate substancial swings in chemistry, SW a bit less, Corals(majority) very little.
When it comes to ecosystems, after a SW tank has been established, it has the ability to break the cycle down to nitrogen gas(harmless), where FW(barring planted?)does not have that ability.
With SW, salinity is the main factor, which also somewhat dictates PH and Alk. If you take that outta the equation, I truly beleive a SW tank is easier to maintain. How many FW people can say their NitrAtes are 0. I never could. But they are in both my reefs.
However, all I did with FW was do 50% H2o changes a week with a Python and a bottle of Prime. Clean filters bi-weekly. I could shut down tanks, and start them back up with no cycle(kept extra filters running). Very easy.
Neither tank type is hard, if researched correctly. Just get your maintenece in swing, and its all good. Husbandry of both is the key to sucess, and after doing it a while, it becomes a breeze.
In the end, they are very opposite and at the same time, quite similar. Its all about the Nitrogen cycle, just added Salinity to SW.
This comment has nothing to do with a planted FW tank, as I have no exp. Fish expense is also well balanced, there are plenty of very expensive FW fish also. When I sold out of my FW breeding, I sold many for $100-$250.
Whether it be FW or SW, keep on fishin folks =).