External return pump plumbing question.

[LowCel]

I am considering purchasing a reeflo dart external pump. My question is how do I do the plumbing for it since my wet/dry is not drilled? I am using a 55 gallon tank as my wet / dry.

[46FiatYamaha]

It's easy to drill and install a bulkhead. If you run the inlet over the side of the sump the pump will be running dry whenever the power goes off

[kcress]

Why would the pump be running dry just because the power goes off?

Once that siphon is formed why would it break? Maybe you are thinking if the pump is mounted above the sump. Then it would be true and a very bad design. That should never even be contemplated.

You can run that suction from the pump over the side.

Most people wouldn't!

Reasons:
1) You do have to start that siphon to the pump the first time or anytime the pump has been emptied. That can be really hard to do. How would you apply a flying lip lock to the return? (A pain in the butt)

2) You should not have any more bends then absolutely necessary leading to a pump's suction. Over the top would be at least three.

3) You should not have any bends within five pipe diameters of the suction line diameter to a pump. This can mean a lot of distance. If the suction line is 2" you need to move the pump out about a foot from the last 90. That can be a deal breaker.

Most people would do it better and drill the sump so you can get a straight shot into the suction port. This automatically removes bends and guarantees the pump's automatic prime.

Just remember to include two union valves for pump removal ease and NO 90's close to the pump. (none ideally)

[LowCel]

Very informative post, thank you! I was going to have the tank drilled but found out that it can't be since the 55 is tempered.

[kgross]

If this is for your return pump. To be honest the DART does not make a great return pump. Also do you really want that much flow going over your overflow and into the sump?

Use the dart as a closed loop pump and much lower volume pump as your return pump.



Kim

[LowCel]

This is going on a 300 gallon tank going down two 1.5" overflows. Once I account for the head pressure I think this pump should do a pretty decent job. I am also considering doing an under sand jet system so that will need a little bit stronger pump.

[kgross]

I will still say hook it up as a closed loop and get a better pump for the return. You don't need over 1000 gph going through your sump.

But since your sump tank is not drilled or drillable, all you can do is go over the top.

Kim

[LowCel]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14504794#post14504794 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kgross
I will still say hook it up as a closed loop and get a better pump for the return. You don't need over 1000 gph going through your sump.

But since your sump tank is not drilled or drillable, all you can do is go over the top.

Kim

I forgot to mention, this is a fresh water tank, it is going to house some pretty good size cichlids that create quite a bit of waste. It is mainly going to be biomedia in the sump, no plants or anything else. Just filter socks, filters, scrubbies, and a foam sponge filter.

[uncleof6]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14503644#post14503644 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kcress
Why would the pump be running dry just because the power goes off?

Once that siphon is formed why would it break? Maybe you are thinking if the pump is mounted above the sump. Then it would be true and a very bad design. That should never even be contemplated.

You can run that suction from the pump over the side.

Most people wouldn't!

Reasons:
1) You do have to start that siphon to the pump the first time or anytime the pump has been emptied. That can be really hard to do. How would you apply a flying lip lock to the return? (A pain in the butt)

2) You should not have any more bends then absolutely necessary leading to a pump's suction. Over the top would be at least three.

3) You should not have any bends within five pipe diameters of the suction line diameter to a pump. This can mean a lot of distance. If the suction line is 2" you need to move the pump out about a foot from the last 90. That can be a deal breaker.

Most people would do it better and drill the sump so you can get a straight shot into the suction port. This automatically removes bends and guarantees the pump's automatic prime.

Just remember to include two union valves for pump removal ease and NO 90's close to the pump. (none ideally)

sumptin like this?


http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/uu274/uncleof6/DSCN0216.jpg

:D

Regards,

Jim

[LowCel]

I'm going to call my lfs tomorrow and ask them if I can return the 55 and order a 75 since the 75 is not tempered on the side glasses. I really don't think I will have a problem returning it. I am going to order a hole saw bit from glass-holes tomorrow.

What size bulkhead should I use for the return in the sump? I have two 1 1/2 drain bulkheads and two 1" return bulkheads in the tank.

[uncleof6]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14507369#post14507369 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by LowCel
I'm going to call my lfs tomorrow and ask them if I can return the 55 and order a 75 since the 75 is not tempered on the side glasses. I really don't think I will have a problem returning it. I am going to order a hole saw bit from glass-holes tomorrow.

What size bulkhead should I use for the return in the sump? I have two 1 1/2 drain bulkheads and two 1" return bulkheads in the tank.

2" bulkhead to feed that dart pump, 1.5" will work, but don't choke the intake, those two 1" bulkheads are going to stop up the flow on their own. In a way, I agree with kgross, a smaller return pump would be more efficient-- especially considering those 1" bulkheads, but on the other hand, I have a dart..... picture above, however it will be feeding more than just the main tank-- but then I am not talking about that.:)

Regards,

Jim

[kcress]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14507348#post14507348 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by uncleof6
sumptin like this?

Holy &^#!
Is that for a municipal wastewater plant?

Looks like you have a long enough distance after that elbow. Too bad you can't find a sweep. Hey! Use Weld-On #16 and use an ABS sewer sweep! That would reduce noise too.

LowCel; That's a very good call man. That is the correct solution.

[uncleof6]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14511043#post14511043 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kcress
Holy &^#!
Is that for a municipal wastewater plant?

Looks like you have a long enough distance after that elbow. Too bad you can't find a sweep. Hey! Use Weld-On #16 and use an ABS sewer sweep! That would reduce noise too.

LowCel; That's a very good call man. That is the correct solution.

sweep? Oh you mean sumptin like this fitting here::D

http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/uu274/uncleof6/DSCN0222.jpg

Wastewater plant? Isn't that basically what an aquarium is? Most of the technology that we use for water management/treatment is adapted from sewage treatment/water reclaimation. I seldom see something that is truely new in aquarium technolgy, just different ways to apply it. The pump is a small pump (Dart w/Baldor motor), it is the gate valve that is huge:D .

Regards,

Jim

[kcress]

Sweet! A PVC sweep. Where'd you find that?

[stugray]

kcress,

The sweeps can be found in the 'Drain waste & vent' section of HD.

Also, check out the electrical section for very large radius PVC sweeps.
They are gray.


uncleof6

Are you sure that is not a sequence barracuda?
I have a barracuda for my return, a dart for Closed Loop, and an Orca for my skimmer.

If your pump is a dart, then you have the motor from the Orca

Stu

[uncleof6]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14515335#post14515335 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kcress
Sweet! A PVC sweep. Where'd you find that?

Got the PVC sweeps, and PVC Sanitary t's ala BeanAnimal's drain system @ an LFS here in San Diego. Pat, at Aquatic Warehouse (http://www.aquaticwarehouse.com/site/index.cfm), tries to keep that stuff in stock, they are not on the site, and I don't know if he e-tails them. HD and Lowes don't have them in PVC, in 1.5" anyway, just ABS. Best bet is to somehow check with Charlotte Pipe and Foundry http://www.charlottepipe.com/ for info on who MAY have them in your area. Spears makes them also, the part number is: P300-020, but finding a walk in store that has that good of a selection of parts is tough. I was up at So Cal Tropical Fish over the weekend, they have Bubble Kings in stock, Geo's, all the high end stuff-- but no plumbing parts. I think the LFS's need to think about that, as plumbing is an important part of the system. There is always someone or two or three over at Aquatic Warehouse, piecing together pvc parts.

Are you sure that is not a sequence barracuda?
I have a barracuda for my return, a dart for Closed Loop, and an Orca for my skimmer.

If your pump is a dart, then you have the motor from the Orca

Stu

The pump is labled "Dart"and "Reeflo," of course sequence makes them I believe. It has a Baldor motor, rather than the smaller A.O. Smith motor, the business end is Dart configuration. it runs at a lower rpm, 1650, .12 hp, ~150 watts + (that is by the label (voltage x amps) rated 3600gph. Very quiet. Good pumps.

Regards,

Jim

[kcress]

Thanks guys.

[manderx]

what's the gate valve for? it's not going to seal very well after a few months of action if you intend to use it as a shutoff so you can remove the pump.

[uncleof6]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14523175#post14523175 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by manderx
what's the gate valve for? it's not going to seal very well after a few months of action if you intend to use it as a shutoff so you can remove the pump.

It was the only valve I had laying around. That pump won't be going into service for a while yet.

Regards,

Jim