A warning about toxicity. A MUST read. [Archive] - Page 2

ANIM4L

12/08/2006, 01:34 PM

I had read somewhere that the toxin in the corals most sold to the public were not as toxic as the exotic ones in the wild (except those found at trade shows). This could make sense (the prettier the deadlier?).

My symptoms started that day, my eye just burned like fire a lot, but not all the time, just everyone once in a while, and i couldnt do anything about it. The next morning is where it started, my eye had turned 95% RED. about ten times worse than the "Clear Eyes" commercials! It hurt pretty bad too, but I dealt with it, and went to work. Throughout the day the pain just got worse and worse and I couldnt stand it, so i left work early. I went home, did some reasearch, found out about the toxin and freaked. Then i read it owuld kill you within minutes and now it had been a little over 24 hours. So i went to UMC Qucik care. I didnt expect them to do anything because these people are idiots. They examined my eye and told me I looked fine, jut some swollenness and redness. I had brought in papers from zoanthid.com and wiki about the corals and toxins and she called poison control. Poison control was afraid i would die and told me to immediatly go to the hospital. Since i wasnt dying i ignored it and decided that if it got worse i would go.

The next morning it begins...

I had woken up, but as scary as it may sound, I could only see out of one eye, and i didnt know why. My parents had come in to see if i was doing any better, saw my face, and said get dressed we are going to the hospital. My eye had been inflamed so much that it stuck out about the size of a tennis ball. We got to the hospital and after a lot of eye tests (and I HATE things touching my eye!) they told me that i had abrasions on my cornea, and severe inflamation (duh!). There was obviously something in this zoanthid that was causing an infection in my eye. Supposedly since i had washed my eye with water immediatly after contact, it saved my eye from any toxin, since the eye is a sponge for the bloodstream, but it got all around my eye. They sent me to an eye surgeon.

This guy did even more tests for my eye. He had founf out there wasa severe chemical burn on my cornea. Inflamation was out of control on my eye. He had called poison control, other doctors, and even doctors in Hawaii assuming they would have heard of this case. No one knew what to do, but the Hawaiin doctors claimed they have had people die from touching zoanthids with cuts on their hands, but no one has ever gotten it in the face.

He prescribed me eye drops for imflamation, irritation, lubrication, infection, and an all around healer eye drop. He also had given me a shot to stop any spread of infection and a shot to lower inflamation. Then I was given pills for all the above symptoms also.

As time went on it got harder to stand it, due to the pressure on my eye i had CONSTANT sinus headaches. My eye also teared constantly, trying to fight of any infection (plus my tears were bright yellow). I went home after that doctor visit to rest and take my meds. I hated resting because due to me tearing up all the time, even when i sleep, when i would wake up, the tears would have dried around my eyelashes and caused a seal on my eye, which was a pain to remove because it hurt to even touch my eye.

I eventually got the eye to be less swollen so i could open my eye about a 1/4 of an inch. Then came the worst and scariest problem. My eye was yellowish and I oculdnt see at all out of it. I immediatly went back tot he hospital and they didnt knwo what was causing it. They assumed the pressure from the imflamation, but they said that should be gone after 4 hours or so, and i had been there 6 hours with no improvement. They kept me there over night. They had constantly washed my eye out about 8 times, each time being 60cc of saline wash and used many medical eye drops to figure out what would work. By morning time (after struggling with the eyelash problem) I could barely see again. My eyes were Extremely blurry! I was still practicaly blind, not even able to make out shadows in the eye. the kept me again over night to make sure my eye wasnt slowly dying (I guess that was a possibility?). The next day I went startight to the opthamologist (eye surgeon) and he examined my eyes again, the stain had gotten bigger and still had no idea how to treat it.

to make time og faster, as the week went on, it slowly got better and better, by 5 days later i could see at 75% of what my eye used to be like. bye 6 days the inflamation was completely gone, but my eye was still reptty red and blurry and hurt, especially looking to the sides. went back to the doctor and he said the corneal stain was smaller, but still there. They washed out my eye again a few times, since there was a chance that the toxin would be slowly reaching my cornea casing me to go blind. He would dialate my eyes to check the back of my eye.

one week later i went back to the doctor and the stain was "gone" or hiding he said. My eye will just slowly get better and better. it is as of right now, barely pinkish yellow. He said it would be 2 weeks till it iswhite again.

Long term affects are that my eye is a little bit lazy, it doesnt open up as much as my good eye. This could be caused by damaged tissue or the swolleness stretching my skin too much, says the doctor. Also my vision in both eyes was PERFECT before, and my good eye still is, but my bad eye, i have to struggle to read the 20/20 line on the tests. i can get close sometimes, but then its just a guessing game. This is what happened to me. Will i still mess with corals and stuff, YES! i will definitely wear eye protection and gloves now, but i cant stop my hobby.

I am actaully an aquatics manager at a PetCo (i know flame me, but atleast i know what I am talking about and wont sell anything unless i know it will live and be happy!), and I used to be an aquatics manager at PetSmart (flame away?) for over two years. I have taken down my reef tank and turned it intoa FOWLR. But one day, i will start up a reef again!

NanoCube-boy

12/08/2006, 02:14 PM

Thats freaking scary... I wear gloves when i work on my tank, but it's to clean the tanks glass without having my faceso closed to it. I'm scare of water splash into my face. I don't knwow aht to do about it, really. It would be stupid to wear a mask, but google would be fine.

billsreef

12/09/2006, 10:59 AM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8668522#post8668522 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hllywd
I'll bet on busted...:cool:

I'll bet you loose that bet :D

Palytoxin is very well researched and documented in palythoa. To think that a bunch of zoo's that are wild collected do not have palytoxin just because they are sitting in an LFS or your tank is to ignore the scientific evidence.

On a more personel level, I've had my experiences with palytoxin also. Many years ago when the idea of fragging corals was still in it's infancy I decided to frag some zoo's that had been in my tank for quite some time. At that point in time I had the bit about them having toxin and that if you had cut's on your hand the toxin could enter that way and make you very ill or even dead. However, not having any cuts at the time I decided to frag my zoo's without wearing gloves. I made all of 6 cuttings and glued them nicely to some rock rubble. Within a few minutes of finishing up, my finger tips went numb, only the fingers that were in direct contact with the zoo cuttings. Soon after my lips got all tingly, and I'm thinking fugu at this point, and was followed by getting lightheaded. And all from making a mere 6 cuttings and no cuts on my hands. Symptoms only lasted a few hours, but I've never cut zoo's without gloves since then ;)

ANIM4L,

Glad to hear you recovered :thumbsup:

NanoCube-boy

12/10/2006, 12:37 PM

Damn that's scary...

CrazyLionfish

12/10/2006, 08:22 PM

I'm back. Those stories of having that toxin are terrible!!! I am glad both of you are doing fine.

I think hllywd is just trying to find some definite data to support the claim many have and I have to agree.

I in no way deny that the toxin does exist, I also in no way deny that it is present in certain zoas. I just wish someone had some data showing that "Bob had .002 nm of Palytoxin 54 in his left eye causing him to have these symptoms." Many (NOT ALL) stories on here say my hand was in the tank and then this happened, there is so many things in the water that could cause symptoms other then zoas. On the other hand there are stories where someone touches a zoa, then the symptoms occur, showing that it must have been the zoa that caused these symptoms.

Someone with high quality equipment go do an experiment, post the results up here, and everyone will be a 100% believer.

Also, Anim4l, I read your story, which is terrible! And I'm very glad you're ok. But you started out with "it all started out the next morning" in what manner did you come in contact with the poison or zoas? Squirt in your eye? Got it on your hands and itched you eye? or what?

musicsmaker

12/10/2006, 08:49 PM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8696240#post8696240 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ANIM4L
I actually had a case of getting shot in the eye by a zoanthid (i was propgating outside of awuarium.

Wolverine

12/11/2006, 08:41 AM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8722031#post8722031 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by CrazyLionfish
Also, Anim4l, I read your story, which is terrible! And I'm very glad you're ok. But you started out with "it all started out the next morning" in what manner did you come in contact with the poison or zoas? Squirt in your eye? Got it on your hands and itched you eye? or what?

I was wondering about that too. If you read the effects of palythoa, they happen immediately on contact. I'm wondering if you didn't get something else in your eye that caused the problems the next day, or rubbed the mildly irritated eye while you were sleeping, creating the abrasion (which is not at all uncommon). Irrigation itself can create a corneal abrasion (which is much less of a problem than the damage the chemicals or bacteria can cause, so it's still recommended).

Also. as mentioned, the tankwater itself (which would be on and in the zoanthid) definitely carries with it loads of bacteria that can cause infections (there are around 100 oceanic bacteria that are known to be capable of causing infections in humans, and likely many times that number that aren't known).

Either of those explanations would fit better with the time course (or a combination of them).

I'm just going to assume this has been brought up somewhere on this thread, but just in case: Read Anthony Calfo's description of getting palythoa toxin on his face. The effects come on immediately, not the next day. I'm not sure why the Hawaiin doc thought no one has gotten this in the face, since there have been plenty of reports of that (though I haven't been able to find any of someone getting it in the eye).

Dave

Wolverine

12/11/2006, 08:48 AM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8670737#post8670737 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hllywd
It's unfortunate but this issue will not be put to bed. AGAIN, I'm not disputing that palytoxin will kill you, IF you find it, and IF you introduce it into your system, and IF the dose is right, and IF... My point is the only evidence is that somebody told somebody that told somebody that told somebody that some zoas killed a dog or made there buddy's wife's uncle sick. See the Urban Legend pattern here?

I personally believe the unfounded scare tactics and fear mongering being so freely waved about in this thread doesn't even belong to the lounge.

I guess common sense isn't so common in these parts, it's a shame a few posts have some people worried enough to wonder if the should keep a reef tank at all.

Since you're unsubscribing, I guess you won't read this, but I'll post it anyway. I deal with zoanthids from a Pascal's wager type of approach. Yes, it's extraordinarly unlikely that I will get enough toxin from dealing with zoanthids to kill me. And if it happens, it would be difficult to prove without a doubt that it was truly the cause (though there are new detection methods that can detect very, very small amounts). Either way, I don't think it's going to happen.

However, if I'm wrong, the results are disastrous. Palytoxin does, without doubt from numerous reliable, scientific sources, have the potential to kill someone. Anyone who is going to try to deny that is not being reasonable.

It's not a tremendous burden to be careful when handling them (eye shield of some kind gloves, for example).

So, I use gloves and an eye protection (and the case can be made for doing this with anything in your tank), which are slightly annoying, but not a huge problem, to avoid the very unlikely, but potentially fatal consequences of getting palytoxin poisoning.

I would also say that this is far from the biggest potential danger from your tank, and there are other things that are much more likely to kill you.

Dave

ANIM4L

12/11/2006, 09:15 PM

To answer your questions, I actually never thought about the tank water itself causing a problem. Because of the severity of the problems, i wont say it wasnt helped out by the dirty tank water, but i can say it was JUST aquarium water.

To also answer the other question, I did get squirt in the eye, not splashed or anything, squirted. immediatly after getting hit in the eye, i felt pain and pressure, only slight but enough to makeme not a happy camper.I had washed my eye out within 15 seconds of being squirt. The redness in my eye started the next morning (ill say 17 hours after initial contact with toxin). The next morning, 24 hours after the redness) is when it got really bad and went ot the hospital,

FishGuttz

12/18/2006, 10:51 AM

This article connects Palyotoxin with ciguetera poisoning. It's interesting that all of the symptoms described on this thread could be from algae infected with ciguetera that happens to be living in aquarium water.
http://ioc.unesco.org/hab/HAN28_FinalComp.PDF

Maybe these test kit would detect palyotoxin, or maybe they would be willing to modify test kits or test our Zoas in their labs.

http://cigua.oceanit.com/index.php?option=com_frontpage&Itemid=1

Lab testing

http://cigua.oceanit.com/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=36&Itemid=36

my 2Â¢

andromedia226

01/20/2007, 04:53 PM

Let's breathe and look at just what palytoxin does.

1)It does NOT have to enter via cuts. It will seep through the dermis, into muscle tissue, up into the blood stream, and will quickly spread to the entire body because despite the molecule's gigantic size, it is able to move up to the heart. So all of you claiming "paly poisoning" from burning feelings with cuts, you're suffering something else.

2) The poison does NOT cause localized pain, because:

Our cells function by controlling chemical gradients of ions in and out of a cell, this creates an electrical potential. When paly is introduced to the cell membrane, it lodges into the small "gatekeeper" proteins that normally control the flow of ions in and out of the cell, and allows ALL ions that can fit through. This eliminates the electrical potential, in turn eliminating cell function ESPECIALLY in neurons, where electrical potential activates neurocommunicators which enact action potential along the nerves. PALY TOXIN WILL NOT CAUSE RASHES, REDNESS, PAIN, ITCHING, ETC!!! In fact, you will feel NOTHING in the area where it was introduced (hand, etc) because it won't allow your cells to tell your brain that something's wrong!

3) If you really have paly toxin, you'll experience a sweeping numbness that will take over your entire body from the area of introduction outwards until it reaches your diaphram. Then you'll stop breathing. Then it'll reach your heart, then you'll die. There is NOT a "halfway poisoning" with the tiny tiny fatal dosages we're talking about here.

3a) If you really think you have paly toxin, the BEST thing to do is call 911 and do NOT drive anywhere, you'll just die at the wheel and possibly hurt others. I really hate to be aggressive like this, but this IS the second most toxic marine substance (1st is a derivative of Crimson Tide bacteria's toxin). This is not like a snake bite where you can battle it by speeding to the ER.

4) Palytoxin is rare!!! BUT it's highly possible for them to circumvent the system via random people collecting them in hawaii, florida, etc and ebaying them or trading them. So yes, it's possible some lucky winners actually do have them.

5) The dog story is NOT a result of palytoxin. Repeat, NOT a result of palytoxin!!!

There are many, many toxins out there that create the same symptoms of paly because, hell, there are only so many things that can go wrong, and MOST toxins target the same areas of cellular function.

The dog took 12 hours to die. If he'd drank toxic paly water, he would either die very quickly or not at all. Paly is a one for one thing: for each cellular ion portal, you need one molecule of paly. Since the lethal dose is very very small, that means either you have enough paly to cause fast death or you don't. There is no "waiting around".
This is almost a digital poison, not analog.

If the dog had paly, he would be dead within very few minutes especially considering the small "volume" of dog. He also wouldn't be able to walk.

6) Situations where people's hands go numb, or they stagger after aquarium-tending are not examples of paly poisoning. Palytoxin is NOT just a paralizer, where you get paralyzed then recover to perfectly normal!

You cells DIE. They don't just go to sleep and then come back on line like a computer. Paly disrupts EVERYTHING in the cell, and you'll get vast necrosis due to both cell self-destruction, where cells implode because they sense there's something wrong with them (this is why cancer's bad: the cancer cells don't know they're flawed and so they don't self destruct when they should). So let's say you get SUPER lucky and get a NON fatal dose:

- Your hand goes numb, and then you may or may not lose it. While new blood will circulate in from the un-affected heart, the cells are in no condition to operate properly, and while the hand will stay warm with blood, muscular tissue, etc will have died.

Summary:
- Dog did not die of palytoxin.
- Palytoxin is actually very rare in aquaria.
- Such small LD50's (50% death ratios) make it MUCH more probable that you will die, and not just have a "brush with a numb death". Exposure pretty much guarantees death.
- There is no pain from the region of exposure, ie cuts.
-

IMO:
There are vast amounts of marine toxins/poisons in our tanks right now that cause the mild burning sensations, rashes, etc. There are hundreds of types of these toxins. Why must everyone who has a rash or numbness afterwards insist that it was one of the RAREST zoo poisons out there?

And how does a dog taking 12 hours to die represent in anyway the total paralysis and fast death that paly would cause?

So, despite the idea of having "the most toxin animal on earth" in our tanks being a "cool thing", let's take a breath (like I should do after this rant) and realize that we're all OK.

This is too much like the perfect boogeyman, and it's more in your HEADS than in your TANK.

NanoCube-boy

01/20/2007, 07:51 PM

hmmm... very nice combat.

birdfish

01/20/2007, 10:30 PM

Great post Andromedia! Agreed. How come everyone who hasn't read this isn't dead? :) And how come many many tens of thousands were imported and handled by thousands of workers for decades without a single mortality? Yes its "outhere", but there are much greater threats. Just don't eat 'em. Interesting that amongst the NON-menu items in the places we get corals from generally are fried green zooanthids. I myself don't eat anything the natives dont' eat. :) I have also bare handed handled 90+% of every species of zooanthids imported over 20+ years with open wounds and never had a thing happen, happen, happen.

birdfish

NanoCube-boy

01/21/2007, 01:21 PM

I wonder that too birdfish. I see a lot of LFS workers handle these guys with out protection, such as gloves or wearing goggles when som people clam the squirt ok toxin that can get in open area. They don't get toxin... I don't get it, maybe getting sick by one will win a lotto to the ER i guess.

It is comletely hard to hand corals with gloves, it's very slippery and sometime can damage it.

musicsmaker

01/25/2007, 02:55 PM

Andromedia226, your post seems very informative. Thanks for coming in here and sharing your knowledge. I have a question. What do you have to say to the term vasoconstrictor, and palytoxin being described as such?

Icefire

01/31/2007, 04:55 AM

Geez, this thread is running for a 4th year...

I just emailed Professor Yo****o Kishi from Harvard who was the first to synthetize it.

Personnaly I think only the Dinoflagellate are making it and if some zoanthids have it in the wild, it's because of tide pool.
Some fish and crabs have been known to carry it as well because they ate so much Dinoflagellate.

Poisoning from eating clupeoid fishes such as sardines and herrings (Clupeidae) or anchovies (Engaulidae), termed clupeotoxism, is widespread in tropical and subtropical areas of the world but rare. A fatal case occurred in Kaua'i in 1978 from the consumption of the Marquesan Sardine (Sardinella marquesensis). This species has been replaced in abundance in the Hawaiian Islands by another import, the Goldspot Sardine (Herklotsichthys quadrimaculatus). Onuma et al. (1999) obtained the head of a specimen of this sardine that caused a fatality in Madagascar and found that it contained palytoxin. Because bottom sediment was detected on the gills and in the esophagus, they concluded that the fish is a bottom-feeder, and the benthic dinoflagellate Ostreopsis siamensis, known to produce palytoxin, the toxic organism. The sediment on the gills was more likely the result of the fish being dragged over the substratum by a seine. The Goldspot Sardine feeds on zooplankton, not benthic organisms. Therefore, a pelagic dinoflagellate is the probable producer of palytoxin.

Randall, John E. 1924- "Review of Clupeotoxism, an Often Fatal Illness from the Consumption of Clupeoid Fishes"
Pacific Science - Volume 59, Number 1, January 2005, pp. 73-77

BiterAtmonk

02/10/2007, 05:16 PM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=1454010#post1454010 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kmk2307
Could you please provide the source that you found this information in? Considering someone lost a pet, someone has to go to the hospital, and several people have reported "tripping" after comming into contact with certain palythoa, I don't believe this is correct.

Kevin

And yet that dog died 12 hours after ingestion; the quoted toxicity stuff above says that Palythoa toxin is lethal within 5 minutes. Sounds like the dog died from something besides palythoa toxica - perhaps just from all the other crap in the water.

Also, I don't buy any reports of "tripping" after touching palythoa. LSD is currently the most potent psychoactive molecule known, and that is active at higher levels than 4 micrograms (generally, acid tabs contain about 100 micrograms of LSD). It's preposterous to think that palythoa contain so little toxin as to cause burning hands after frequent handling, yet also contain a chemical ten or 15 times more potent than LSD (which is already orders of magnitude more potent than all other hallucinogens known).

Coralmkr1

03/08/2007, 08:20 PM

Protopalythoa, and palythoa are regularly available in the aquarium trade. Lets not concentrate so much on toxicity, but more on secondary infections. If you have a cut on your skin, and regularly handle corals, live rock, come in contact with bristle worms, etc....there is a chance that you can get an infection. For the most part, these infections may only offer discomfort, redness, slight swelling, and may radiate heat. These types of dermal reactions to bacteria, toxins, usually go away in 24hrs.
Yesterday, while removing zooanthids, (blue caribbean, yellow zoo.s), from my Maxima clam's shell,,,I encountered an infection. I wore latex gloves, held the clam in my right hand, and began scraping the zoos from the ridges on the shell. I must have pricked my fingertips, with the brush. In the middle of the nite I was woken by trobbing of my right hand. (the hand is swollen, red, and I can barely bend my fingers) There are tiny pustules every where the brush pricked my figers. The cuts that I encountered, during a live rock restack, coral fragging, water change day of fun...lol, are infected as well. I went to the doctor this morning, (and ofcourse, I was pretty much teaching the doc about what a zooanthid, a coral, and so on, are. The doc placed me ona corticol steroid, and a broad spectrum antibiotic. I am not worried, I feel the soreness, and infection will subside in a day or so.
However, the fact is that we do not fully know how the insides of a zooanthid, palythoa, proto-palythoa, or other corals, will react with the human body. The important thing is to be careful, and take care, when you are fragging coral, trimming live rock, removing aptaisa's from a rock, mixing salt, handling various caustic reef chemicals. Wear safety glasses, latex gloves, etc. Take necessary precautions, and keep your hobby, a safe one.

As for the proof of the lethality of palythoa toxins, I feel more scientific research needs to be done. (As with any emerging field, there is a lot to be learned from our Oceans, and its inhabitants.

ionredline0260

03/09/2007, 03:13 PM

I've handled my zooanthids bare handed for months, gotten a squished one IN A CUT. I'm not dead. If they where ALL really this toxic do you really think they would be LEGAL to sell in the united states? As I recall you just can't go buy a black mamba at a pet store, so why would you be able to buy killer corals?

billsreef

03/09/2007, 04:04 PM

You can buy killer octopus ;)

Coralmkr1

03/09/2007, 07:26 PM

The apparent danger of death from palythoa's, is extremely rare. I wouldn't be terribly concerned about loss of life, if you handle your corals. However, there is a risk of infection, from cuts, scrapes, etc, and getting bacteria from the rock, water, or corals. Be smart about it, and take precautions, ie: latex gloves, safety glasses, etc. Remember, if there were that many deadly palytoxin containing zooanthids, out there in the hobby, reefers would be dropping like flies.

Zestay

03/14/2007, 12:55 PM

yesterday my neighbor gave me some palythoa's he collected himself so they may be a breed not available " in the trade " a khacki colored polyp with a light blue ring in them. didnt noticed i had a cut on my hand. my arm burned for an hour or so after handling them. all i can say is be careful.

chkra_hp

03/16/2007, 01:20 AM

Is "Zoanthids" same thing as "Zoanthus"? I really like the way these coral look and want to get some for my tank but definitely a no no if it is poison of anykind. What about "PROTOPALYTHOA" they look alike? are they poison too? I dont understand why when these are poison and dangerous why they are stated that good for beginners?

Here is the link to the website that sell these on the internet. Can someone advise?
http://www.aquacon.com/polyps.html

chkra_hp

03/17/2007, 12:37 AM

anyone?

chkra_hp

03/17/2007, 12:37 AM

Double post sorry :(

chkra_hp

03/17/2007, 12:37 AM

Double post sorry

zookeeper1

03/20/2007, 12:33 AM

I had the misfortune to experience a nasty reaction after inadvertant contact with some brown button polyps. I was drainging my tank to move it, and had carefully removed the coral covered rocks and placed them in a bucket, except for the bottom level of rocks that were covered with brown buttons.
While moving the tank (on the stand) with about 2" of water (and all the fish) left one of my nice big blue tangs decided to jump, and landed on a rock that was above the water line, and covered with polyups. My reaction was to reach in, and scoop him up and back into the water. Fish is OK, and I proceded to get the pump going and refill the tank as soon as it was relocated on the opposite side of a wall.
As soon as the water was back in the tank, and the rocks and corals back in place I immedietely washed my hands for about 10 minutes.

Soon after I started to have a metal taste in my mouth. Everything tasted different at dinner, and to tell you the truth I was having a nice trip. The only explanation is something toxic in my tank got in through a small cut on one of my fingers. It is certainly an experience that I would rather not repeat. I normally wear arm length gloves when working in the tank. This was the exception, as I had a suffocating fish that needed to get back in the water, and I reached in unprotected.

NanoCube-boy

03/22/2007, 05:31 PM

Zoanthus, Zoanthids, Palys are the same thing... Just palys look differently, they are more larger I believe and the tenticles are different as well.

Icefire

03/27/2007, 05:16 PM

Here's a response from Yuzuru Shimizu who made 2 study about Palytoxin:

Dear Stephane:
Don't worry. You won't be hurt with the zoanthus in aquarium. Even if
it is toxic, enough toxin will not come into your body. The toxicity
of Palythoa varies. I collected a large amount in Puerto Rico with no
ill effect. However, it is always a good practice to wear rubber
gloves, because many marine organisms are cause of allergic reactions.
As to Ostereopsis, it produces a small amount of palytoxin analogues,
but it is not known if they are the source of palytoxin in Palythoa.
Again, you have to grow thousands of liters to get visible amounts of
them. We grew one time thousand of liters, but found very little
toxins.

Yuzuru Shimizu, Ph.D., D. Pharm. Sci. (Hon.)
Omar-Youngken Distinguished Chair Emeritus of Natural Product Chemistry
Professor Emeritus of Biomedical & Pharmaceutical Sciences,
College of Pharmacy, University of Rhode Island

NanoCube-boy

03/28/2007, 02:28 AM

So even if I scrub my brush to clean off the aglaes?

bignick

03/28/2007, 09:55 AM

I'm sorry but this thread is just too long to read from start to finish. All i want to know is If you keep a lot of Zoanthids can you keep other corals like SPS, LPS and other softies? So far i have about 30lbs of Rock that have zoanthids on them and my fish are fine and i have never experienced a reaction.

NanoCube-boy

03/28/2007, 05:27 PM

Bignick, YES, you may keep other corals, it will not disturb other corals because zoanthids are pretty peaceful. I don't recommend YOU disturbing them, otherwise... you know.

bignick

03/29/2007, 08:03 AM

Thanks NCB!

Sugar Magnolia

03/29/2007, 08:31 AM

A member of our local reef club has had first hand experience with toxin vapors: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1083843

Wolverine

03/31/2007, 10:02 AM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9596724#post9596724 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Sugar Magnolia
A member of our local reef club has had first hand experience with toxin vapors: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1083843

It's difficult to say for sure that the zoanthids are the cause there.

Dave

moespeaking

04/12/2007, 10:06 PM

A friend of mines arm went numb almost for 6 hours after handling a blue palythoa colony. At work I notice a slight stinging sensation after handling certain corals but its not strong enough to keep me from my work.

cmb88

04/21/2007, 10:53 PM

i have been following this thread and the other under reef discussion..thought i would post here as well..mmm

firstly i have been following this thread since day one. I am so sorry fot yuor loss...I just wanted to put my thoughts down. I am a vet tech who has been in the field 8 yrs of animal emergencies. I have seen almost every intoxication in dogs that you can imagine...
IMO small dogs in particular are more suseptible to toxicity in what they eat. they are like little vacumes turn your back for a min and pow!! what did they eat?
I am also a molecular cellular biologist and i promise i will do more research and bring my zoos to the lab etc..I will let you know what i find..a lot of my peers travel around the world researching these types of corals etc..(lucky bastards lol)

I am not debating that there is a toxin, or that animals and some people (especially those with sensitive skin etc) can be harmed...but....

here we go...

When an owner comes into my hospital complaining of one syptom or what they think happened..99% of the time they either got into something else as well and or there are 4-5 other problems with their animal they were not aware of. This is why detailed histories are important.

My point is for all we know the dog was in the back yard ate rat bait 3 days before or did drink the water and got sick, or ate human food got salminela sp?, or went to the river three weeks ago ate a raw salmon and got toxicity (takes 2-3 weeks for symptoms)..or was older had renal failure to begin with, etc..was the dog vomiting? did he appear drunk? Walking around eyes blinking etc? What was the body temp?

I think we all need to be careful duhh wash your hands dont let kids or animals drink your tank water etc..but we do not need to become scared..I have a tank with all zoo's all kinds..I am a dirty girl who works in animal feces all day soo my cleanliness level is slightly altered lol, but i can tell you i have smoked after not washing my hands, sipped some water accidently siphoning, etc..If you get a rash etc..pull them out try again..

I am glad for all these threads etc..education is a good thing..lets just try to be level headed..

As a tech I wish i could pick your brain go through it all with you, and I wish the veterinarian would post some more info, but as a fellow animal lover and owner, I feel for your loss and hope you well!!

Thanks just my .02 cents!!

Eklikewhoa

05/16/2007, 10:40 PM

Was wondering what is the poisonous stuff? The clear goo that comes out or the brown stuff after being mishandled?

I have handled my zoas bare handed and the only thing that bothers the cuts is the salt water.

I did drop a zoa once and after putting it in the tank it released a thick brown goo which I did not touch.

joedirt54

05/31/2007, 02:31 AM

I use regular yellow rubber gloves or latex gloves each and every time I handle my corals...not to keep from killing myself, but to limit the toxins I might transmit to my corals from my hands...Do you really think zoas that could kill or hurt humans from casual contact would be sold at your local LFS?

I have touched many a brown button polyp, only to come away with a sticky feeling on my fingers...I chew snuff and would have killed myself by now if they were that toxic.

Dirt

DgenR8

05/31/2007, 07:17 PM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10048523#post10048523 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by joedirt54
.Do you really think zoas that could kill or hurt humans from casual contact would be sold at your local LFS?

Dirt

Lionfish, Rabbitfish, Haddoni Anemones, Urchins, even blue ring Octopus. Nah, your LFS couldn't possibly sell Zoanthids that could hurt or even kill you........

Mother Yoda

07/11/2007, 12:37 PM

Say I have been reading about this stuff yesterday but everywhere I looked I could not find anything about what types of corals on the market that contain the stuff. Is it just zoanthids in general that contain the poison or is it a particular type that has it. Is their some list that contains a list of corals that has it. It would be preferable to have all the common generic names listed just because to prevent confusion about the various corals.

JackJack7

07/31/2007, 03:13 PM

I remember being told by a guy working at my lfs, that zoanthids toxins as as toxic as the blue ring octopus toxin...

Runfrumu

09/02/2007, 06:00 PM

Taken from the magazine "Coral", is an article written by Daniel Knop.

In it he states "Aoanthids aren't very popular with German reef aquarist, in part, because of their very nature---- after all, SOME OF THE SPECIES produce one of the most toxic posions known: Palytoxin."

He goes on to state that it is the Proopalythoa species that contains it, he also goes on to state some of the characteristic's of the species that do contain it such as the ability of the species to contract to an almost flat sheet and, simultaineously relase the toxin and also their fast propagation rate and how it also would cause most of his fish to jump out of the water whenever the toxin was released and how it killed many of the coral's in his aquarium. He says even the most inexperienced aquarist can tell the difference.

So everyone can calm down, and not throw out their Zonanthids, I'm pretty sure none of these species would make it to your local fish store, and if they did, I'm sure many of you would be dead by now and this thread wouldnt be 13 pages nor would their be a subforum deadicated to Zoanthids.

This is sort of like the Ricin thing, where it is made from Castor beans, but eating Castor bean's isnt going to kill you.

dufus

09/24/2007, 01:29 PM

From what i have gathereed on all this, the Zooanthids aren't toxic.

It's the Palythoas that are deadly, and not all of them at that.

Button polyps are the dangerous ones, again, not all of them.

and, the toxin would have to be introduced in larger amounts than just a small open cut on your hand being in the very diluted palytoxin in the aquarium.

now, i could see if the man was fragging his polyps and there was a fair amount of palytoxin released that the dog ingested.

Another thing, it is a dog, therefore it's a bit smaller than a human and it would take less palytoxin to be fatal than it would take in a human.

Now i don't think we should get a false sense of securrity though.

The most toxic animal on earth is infact found in many people's aquariums.

And if you don't think your LFS would sell it to you, think again.

I can buy a black mamba if i want to for about 300$, or a monacled cobra for about 100$

You can also get an octopus with Cyonide in it's beutiful blue rings at some LFS.

The red eft(the juvinile form of the eastern newt) can sometimes be bought at reptile expos, and is very toxic.

for that matter, you can purchase or even find brown recluse spiders for a very small anmount.

just be carefull.

I, honestly, don't like button polyps in the first place, but am obsessed with zooanthids.

Know what you're buying, and know what's dangerous.

NanoCube-boy

09/29/2007, 03:17 AM

Dufus, Are you serious that button polyps is toxin? I been fragging bare hand without gloves. Now that I know... It had spook me. Where did you get these information?

dufus

09/29/2007, 07:14 PM

I can't remember exactly where the article was, but apparrantly the toxin is found in Palys, not zoas.

NanoCube-boy

10/02/2007, 01:06 PM

Interesting information.

LegendLand

10/23/2007, 07:49 AM

well so far the biologist & scientist documents state that its only been extracted from those 2 certain Palythoas. i think that is why they called it Paly-toxin, cause it lives in Palythoas, what needs to be done, is some of the most common species of Zoanthus NOT PALYTHOA sent for research, aquaculterd specimens NOT WILD CAUGHT, it is a known fact that some animals only get there toxins from there diet, this could be so with the zoas. alot of peop[le still dont know the difference between Zoanthus & Palythoa & zoanthus might be getting the blame for paly's reactions on humans & dogs.

also there has been research found that other corals, such as Favia, Goniopora,Euphyillia (Hammer Coral) & other mainly LPS corals carry toxins that can cuase or infict paralyzing toxins. if i remember correctly Acropora was even listed. (i'll double check later)
& most of us have had problems with flatworms, has anyone researched the toxins on these little fellows ? even the Discovery channel had a show about them !

also i suffered a posioning, but i didnt have zoas, i was actually handeling Dendronepthya every day, part of a External container feeding method i created, i was handeling it 2x a day every day. then one day it stung me. 2 days later i was in the hospital & i couldnt breath. took almost 3 weeks to regian breath but i was left with a defect in my left heart muscle, a heart murmur that never existed before the sting.

so the point is all corals & inverts & even some fish have the ability to kill or paralyze us. it just takes the right dose & the right sting.

napydred

11/01/2007, 04:28 PM

interesting thread

TitoTee

11/16/2007, 11:11 AM

Oh MY GOSH - I can't believe I read the bulk of this thread! What a bunch of crap. Most people are experiencing allergic reactions - they just didn't know they were allergic to certain sea creatures. The best piece of info came from the guy with the PH D. It's too bad the thread could not attract any marine biologist. Just a bunch of folks with 2 cents, 3 cents and 4 cents. I am saying what I am saying here because I just wasted 50 minutes of my life on this crap!!!!

geiges

11/17/2007, 03:23 AM

hear is my 4 cents after reading many minutes of this.
jest got done moveing all my zoos and rock to get out a
damsal, with a cut or two on my hands than I read this thread.
I'll let you know how I make out!

uhuru

11/23/2007, 02:38 PM

I am currently writing a term paper on palytoxin. I will provide a link to a pdf of my paper here when I'm done if that's okay. It will be all based on peer reviewed journal articles. So far I've read that palytoxin analogues have also been found in a sea anemone Radianthus macrodactylus (Mahnir et al. 1992), dinoflagellates (Lenoir et al., 2004) and I believe as others have mentioned it can be sequestered by marine animals so it has also been found in crabs and fishes. Palytoxin is also a skin tumor promoter by modifying cellular signaling involved with growth factors (Wattenberg, 2007). Dogs are more resistant to the hemolytic affects of the toxin because they lack the amount of Na+ K+ ATPase in their erythrocytes (Bottinger et al., 1986). I haven't read this whole thread but there are other affects both sudden and delayed, perhaps all this has already been mentioned here.

uhuru

11/23/2007, 03:42 PM

Oh one more thing in case it hasnt been noted, palytoxin was found to be highly toxic by the USDA when administered IV, intramuscular or subcutaneous, but quite ineffective when ingested orally - so the main concern comes from when you have a cut and you don't wear gloves.

TitoTee

11/23/2007, 03:52 PM

http://www.cbwinfo.com/Biological/Toxins/Palytoxin.html

After you read about this Toxin. Go to the home page and see where this is listed.

Can it become a weapon?

Warning! If you're not a chemist - you wont enjoy reading this next paper!

http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/100/2/386

uhuru

11/23/2007, 05:41 PM

LOL, I have that paper right in front of me! I think that's a very nice explanation and very interesting - and I'm not a chemist.

ouuduy

11/26/2007, 01:32 AM

I'm glad that there are alot of you guys out there doing some research with this because I never knew they could do this much harm and I will think twice about not wearing gloves when handling such an interesting creature.

uhuru

11/27/2007, 03:45 AM

yeah palytoxin is no joke - there was a study in 1990 that found it was the strongest inducer of prostaglandin synthesis to date... it promotes skin tumors in a number of ways... not to mention it destroys red blood cells by causing them to lose all their potassium... and cardiac failure due to spasms of cardiac muscle and vasoconstriction - all at picomolar concentrations

look up clupeotoxism this has also been linked to eating fishes contaminated by palytoxin

hahaitzmickey

12/29/2007, 01:26 AM

man that was a good thing to know that they are poisonous.... i been poking it with my finger.. but HEY i'm not dead yet ... hahaha

hahaitzmickey

12/29/2007, 01:41 AM

but yea it is dangerous stuff.... before i didn't know what it was. and i poke it with my finger playing with it... and a few minutes later i went to bed.. as i was laying there i got really dizzy and wanted to puke and i was so tired i couldn't open my eyes.... then i woke up the next morning .. the paly toxin must of got in my system some how.. who knows..

TitoTee

12/29/2007, 09:12 PM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11476139#post11476139 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hahaitzmickey
but yea it is dangerous stuff.... before i didn't know what it was. and i poke it with my finger playing with it... and a few minutes later i went to bed.. as i was laying there i got really dizzy and wanted to puke and i was so tired i couldn't open my eyes.... then i woke up the next morning .. the paly toxin must of got in my system some how.. who knows..

Here is what's scary!

911 is dialed. A man is in cardiac arrest. He is pronounced dead at the hospital. Coroner says its a heart attack. Weeks later a widow is posting a reef tank for sale.

Imagine how many times this may have happen......

and the real killer sits silently in hubby's tank!

Wolverine

12/30/2007, 11:27 AM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11480384#post11480384 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by TitoTee
Here is what's scary!

911 is dialed. A man is in cardiac arrest. He is pronounced dead at the hospital. Coroner says its a heart attack. Weeks later a widow is posting a reef tank for sale.

Imagine how many times this may have happen......

and the real killer sits silently in hubby's tank!

Orrrrrrrrr, maybe he just had a regular old cardiac arrest and also happened to have an aquarium. Both are common enough that you would expect that to happen and it not necessarily have anything to do with the tank.

TitoTee

12/30/2007, 04:09 PM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11483229#post11483229 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Wolverine
Orrrrrrrrr, maybe he just had a regular old cardiac arrest and also happened to have an aquarium. Both are common enough that you would expect that to happen and it not necessarily have anything to do with the tank.

I agree. However, the point I'm trying to make is that there is a posibility of this sort of thing happening more than we may realize and there would be no collection of data since .....well......

how many coroners are going to be checking for Palytoxin as cause of death without any justifiable cause to search for it?

MUCHO REEF

04/02/2008, 08:20 PM

More info

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1332112

Mucho Reef

TitoTee

04/02/2008, 08:55 PM

Based on most of these experiences I would think that they are more along the lines of allergic reactions than Paly poisining.

TitoTee

04/02/2008, 08:55 PM

Based on most of these experiences I would think that they are more along the lines of allergic reactions than Paly poisining.

NanoCube-boy

04/04/2008, 12:23 AM

iono hard to tell these days

davidandliz

04/07/2008, 10:16 PM

i think this can also be some sort of mild alergic reaction. i had a similar situation.. my husband constantly puts his hands in our tank to move things around... he was asleep one night and i moved my rock of zoos from my 90 g to my 24 nano afterwards i washed my hands a couple times becasue of the smell and went to bed..
while i was laying in bed my left leg started feeling funny i reached down to feel it and it was numb.. i thought i might have pinched a nerve.. when i went to sit up i felt dizzy and sluggish. I stood up and woke my husband and my chest started feeling tight almost like it was hard to breath. i didnt even put the 2 together until about 1/2 hr later .. it took a couple hours for me to be able to fall asleep but i still felt the same way.. the next morning i was fine.

i have read information on zoas and never really took it seriously considering i know alot of ppl in the hobby and never heard them say anything about it.

i believe it now...
just because it hasnt happened to you doesnt mean that ppl who say it happened are crazy.

I dont think it would have killed me but if i ate them it just might.

maybe its an allergic reaction or maybe not.

davidandliz

04/07/2008, 10:21 PM

its always a good idea to be safer then sorry.... maybe someone out there is extremely allergic to this ... dont take the chance.

NanoCube-boy

04/08/2008, 05:52 PM

Yea safe than sorry. The only thing its hard for me to wear gloves is that my hands are too small. I can't get the right feeling when I frag or handle corals. So I have bare with what ever I get.

spamin76

05/14/2008, 05:24 PM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12240141#post12240141 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by TitoTee
Based on most of these experiences I would think that they are more along the lines of allergic reactions than Paly poisining.

I am not sure that palytoxin could be immunogenic from it's structure - in solution it looks like it would be too floppy and also I am not sure it has anything that has a descript enough 3d structure for an antibody to recognize any one part of it, so unless an antibody can bind, you aren't going to get any kind of immune response. Generally immune responses tend to be triggered by proteins which are much more structurally complex and have 3d structure, which this does not.

Not impossible that this would cause an allergic reaction, but it makes a crumby antigen. Unless of course you mean they are having an allergic reaction to something else, which is entirely possible.

As for palytoxin being lethal, yeah this stuff destroys the membrane potential of any cell it comes in contact with... that is more than sufficient to kill just about anything.

oceanparadise1

05/16/2008, 08:10 PM

sooo all zoas are toxin?

Wolverine

05/17/2008, 05:21 PM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12539298#post12539298 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by spamin76
I am not sure that palytoxin could be immunogenic from it's structure - in solution it looks like it would be too floppy and also I am not sure it has anything that has a descript enough 3d structure for an antibody to recognize any one part of it,

ANYTHING has the potential to be allergenic/immunogenic. Even if you have a relatively unstable structure, the body only has to find one small portion of that to react to. Sometimes just a small string of amino acids can be enough to do it.

ReefGeekCanada

05/21/2008, 09:53 PM

I skipped to the last page..so were they toxic or not?

DAftPunker

06/12/2008, 08:45 PM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=1398120#post1398120 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by intheband
corals found in the aquarium trade DO NOT contain palytoxin..and its not in zoanthus at all-but rather in palythoa-and only a few species(once again-not available in the trade)contain it...

zooanthids are perfectly harmless-all the hype about this is getting pretty rediculous:rolleyes:

can anyone refute what im saying at all??-and produce the data to back it up?ill gladly eat my words if you can( and maybe even be more careful in the future)..but if you cant-all youre doing is feeding a senseless paranoia..

I'm going to have to agree with intheband on this one and here is why:

1) I have touched, cut, ripped and brushed up against zoas w/out any reactions and I have a few different species. I have heard from multiple sources that only certain zoas contain the palytoxin.

2) How do you know that these reactions from people or animals are not an allergic reaction? I can eat peanut butter but if somebody who has a bad peanut allergy smells it, they can die right?

3) I have done much searching and nobody had hard evidence, no death certificates signed: death by coral poisoning from palytoxin.

4) Wikipedia isn't a reliable source but it says two things, palytoxin is poisonous but you pretty much have to eat a significant amount of zoa's to feel the ill effects or rub it into a fresh cut.

5) I've experienced more skin reactions and have heard from others too when handling live rock and remember it's dumb to stick any open sore into a saltwater tank let alone any fish tank. It's loaded with bacteria which who knows can cause what harm.

6) Wash your hands after messing with your tank/corals, etc. Basic Hygene, durr.

7) Don't eat your corals and you won't have a problem, if you can't watch your dog and stop him from eating corals you should have a dog or the dog is dumb.

8) Palytoxin is considered to be "ONE" of the most toxic non-peptide substances know.

There is a lot of bunk hype on this subject but the majority of it is hear say.

DAftPunker

06/12/2008, 08:55 PM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10832117#post10832117 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by dufus
From what i have gathereed on all this, the Zooanthids aren't toxic.

It's the Palythoas that are deadly, and not all of them at that.

Button polyps are the dangerous ones, again, not all of them.

and, the toxin would have to be introduced in larger amounts than just a small open cut on your hand being in the very diluted palytoxin in the aquarium.

now, i could see if the man was fragging his polyps and there was a fair amount of palytoxin released that the dog ingested.
the first place, but am obsessed with zooanthids.

Know what you're buying, and know what's dangerous.

I forgot to say that too, I'm reading backwards and I heard that too, it's certain palythoas. I was worried at first a week or two back when i squashed a palythoa on accident with my bare fingers and I'm still alive.

NanoCube-boy

06/12/2008, 09:50 PM

Iono.... I'm so confuse...

whitleyjb

07/07/2008, 08:16 PM

Wow 15 pages and no clear answer.

I have several Zoa colonies and have fragged all of them without incident. That being said, I will be a little more cautious when handling them.

NanoCube-boy

07/08/2008, 12:50 PM

Well, It's an up and down opinion situation.

andrew jacoby

07/09/2008, 08:29 PM

I was wondering why my hand went numb after placing 3 small frags of zoanthids in my tank. It went away after about 8 hours. I also felt a little off for awhile. A lesson well learned.

NanoCube-boy

07/10/2008, 08:42 PM

Andrew Jacoby, really your hands went numb after handling? What zoanthids did you handle?

musicsmaker

07/13/2008, 09:20 PM

That doesn't sound like a palytoxin reaction. None the less a frightening one im sure.

aquareef1

07/15/2008, 10:47 PM

just womdering. I read in here that poly toxin cases high blood pressure and low blood sugar. well i have quite a few polys in my tank and handle them with no gloves and guess what I now have high blood presure and low blood sugar. humm could it be linked. both symtomes started after I started my reef tank. like I said just wondering.:eek2:

allauction

08/14/2008, 10:50 AM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=1398120#post1398120 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by intheband
corals found in the aquarium trade DO NOT contain palytoxin..and its not in zoanthus at all-but rather in palythoa-and only a few species(once again-not available in the trade)contain it...

zooanthids are perfectly harmless-all the hype about this is getting pretty rediculous:rolleyes:

can anyone refute what im saying at all??-and produce the data to back it up?ill gladly eat my words if you can( and maybe even be more careful in the future)..but if you cant-all youre doing is feeding a senseless paranoia..

YOU ARE VERY INCORRECT SIR.... I am reding this thread as I had extended contact with some zoo's that just came in the mail last night. I have handled zoo's before, with caution, and never had a reaction. Many of the zoo's had come loose during shipping, so I glued them back on to rocks. Like a noob, I didn't use any gloves. Within 30 minutes my hands were on fire and it was spreading up my arms and thank god stopped at almost my chest. I took a very hot shower using tons of soap, which helped some. It was almost midnight and I was feeling nausious and feverish. I ended up waking my girlfriend and telling her what was going on. I wrote down the information about the zoos and maded sure to write down and tell her it was palytoxin in case I got worse and had to get medical help. I tried to get some sleeep, but developed a pretty severe headache. I got up this mornig and have extreme sensitivity in my arms and hands, a headache and numbness / burning in my left hand arm. I am very concerned and am getting ready to call the poison hotline in our area. I came on here to see if I should be as worried as I am and then read this most ridiculous and uninformed post and just had to chime it.. IT IS REAL, THERE IS TOXIN IN ZOO's AND PALY's...

allauction

08/14/2008, 10:55 AM

"1) I have touched, cut, ripped and brushed up against zoas w/out any reactions and I have a few different species. I have heard from multiple sources that only certain zoas contain the palytoxin."

Yes, and I have been stung by bees many times in my life with nothing more than flash of mild pain and a bump. I had a friend die from a single bee sting... Everybody has different chemistry..

I was stung by a Portugese man of war jellyfish in the Florida keys in Dec. I barely felt the sting and other than my hand swelling almost double its size and huge blisters, it was no big deal... Many people die or have serious reactions to those stings...

Read my previous post if you don't think it is real...

firebirdude

09/21/2008, 09:21 AM

So why aren't our fish killed by the zoa that ARE toxic?

And if we could start a running list of all the zoa that ARE toxic, that would probably help a lot of people out.

becon776

09/21/2008, 11:31 AM

huh... well so are lionfish rabbitfish and half the other things we keep in our tanks. Personally I think it's pretty damn cool! in fact I am going to mush some of them and rub my broadhead in the mush for deer hunting! haha.. p.s. I can't wait for my blue ringed octopus to come in!
I can't believe this thread is still on here! wowoweewah!

Wolverine

09/21/2008, 03:20 PM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13395053#post13395053 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by becon776
huh... well so are lionfish rabbitfish and half the other things we keep in our tanks.

That gets into the whole (often ignored) distinction between poisonous (zoas) and venomous.

HappySkittles

09/22/2008, 12:31 AM

very interesting
for the dog
drinking seawater can kill
its head was in a bucket/tub full of seawater

anyway
i just got zoanthids and almost crapped my pants when i first read this. this was after i had gotten them today @_@ but the more i look at it the more i dont think zoas really have that strong a toxin but the palys might (which i avoided buying because they seem a lot meaner than zoas...im sure every coral has SOME kind of toxin to defend itself but maybe enough to just taste gross) also maybe people have certain allergies? if its gonna do any damage i think it would be in eating it and then maybe it had to be a certain kind or alot of it...which i dont think would be terribly tasty and im sure they would feel yucky D:

Dustin1300

10/13/2008, 11:22 PM

Thanks for the advice....would hate to die doing my own hobby that I found so safe! Dying working on the reef, no one would ever believe. would just assume my wife had decided to feed me some poison!

NanoCube-boy

10/14/2008, 01:04 PM

I'm so confuse......................................

wpnorton

10/19/2008, 09:15 PM

I've handled many different types of Zoa's without a single side effect...I believe I've been lucky. I'll wear gloves and glasses in the future. When working with Zoa's (Fragging) I've heard of cases where the juice squirted into people eyes with very bad results. I always wear safety glasses now. It's one thing for your hands to go numb for a while, and another to go blind!

NanoCube-boy

10/20/2008, 12:26 PM

Honestly been reading up about toxin in zoas and palys, I don't want to carry in my tank anymore. Lucky I don't have any now because I would regret. They are very nice, I really like them, but the risk is to dangerous to try having one now. I think I'm going to stay away from them.

1337TANKHAX

10/23/2008, 11:20 PM

I got a pink paly frag in the mail today, its packaging was a little funky. the palys were basically wrapped in newspaper soaked with sw. i put the frag in my tank, and about an hour later, i noticed this green/brown liquid escaping from the top of one of the polyps. could this liquid possibly be this toxin? i just coincidentally read this tread last night. i havent touched anything in my tank since, and i was wondering what level of caution should be taken. thanks

NanoCube-boy

10/25/2008, 09:10 PM

hmm... that's sound spooky. I think it might be tonix, but if yor fine today. then your good.

musicsmaker

10/31/2008, 05:57 PM

Sounds like the zoos are releasing some zoxanthellei. Forgive my spelling, but it is the algae that live inside of corals and tun the light into food for them.

ssublime1

12/13/2008, 06:42 AM

This thread is really fascinating to me. I don't know if it's been mentioned here in a previous post, but perhaps the zoo's are so brilliantly colored as a warning sign to predators. I recently started a reef tank again and got a nice little clump of zoos today. I was very cautious handling them, taking great care not to come into contact with their bag water or anything else. Interestingly, the guy who got them for me out of the breeding vats never wears any kind of protection. I would assume they've never had reason to take precautions.

A few years back I was collecting my own from an exposed reef fairly regularly with no protection at all. Around the same time I developed some strange health problems and generally felt "off" for quite a period of time. I had never had any kind of ongoing health problems up until then but I noticed some nights when I was out there on the rocks I would not feel quite right. Of course there were other factors occurring such as job and family stress, but it is interesting to think back on it and go hmmm I wonder if...

NanoCube-boy

12/14/2008, 02:45 PM

Well you just never know. It might the corals.

spamreefnew

12/15/2008, 06:09 PM

yes some fact sheets would be nice

gorey

12/15/2008, 09:59 PM

I think we need a MSDS on this!LOL!:)

svk

12/31/2008, 04:27 AM

Think its possible to get immune to the toxins? Iv been working with zoas for a year now almost every day i cut them,12 months ago i felt very light headed and a zing throwout my body.i have cats so yeah lots of scratches,but now i only feel minor slowness in my hands like arthritis. any thoughts to immunity?

saltyboy84

12/31/2008, 04:37 AM

i dont get it i move my zoas with my bare hands and i never knew of this toxin, can this toxin be absorbed by the skin or is it like a jellyfish and stings you, and if you handel the zoa a lot over a long time i think your body would not be affected by its toxins, like all things your body builds up an natural defense against it. thats my quess

SnapDragon

01/08/2009, 01:08 AM

I read the original post awhile back. My spouse makes me wear safety goggles. They are HUGE and look hilarious, but I feel better that I am protecting my eyes. I also try to use gloves as much as possible and think that I am going to get some of the good ones from the vet.

NanoCube-boy

01/08/2009, 01:52 AM

I think i'm going to never buy zoanthids and button corals. I'm too scare now.

tinky

01/08/2009, 06:41 AM

I'm glad I read this, I've been fragging bare hands the past week cut them up poorly at times not enough room to angle blade. Totally wearing gloves from now on, I should have worn them just because whenever I put my hands in the tank.

dagermain

01/12/2009, 04:29 PM

This may be one of the few sticky's that provides no answer, so little value...though the debate was interesting. Seems like someone would have done some clear research on this...

reefeasy

02/05/2009, 04:51 PM

Firescue

02/18/2009, 09:06 PM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=1335152#post1335152 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Aaron1100us
Ok, I'm confused. This is supposed to be the most deadly toxin in the world but when dcowling got some, just his arm burned. If you get tagged by a Black Mamba, you'd be dead before you hit the ground. How does it not kill the fish and everything else in the aquarium?

With this in mind, a snake bite is imedaitley injected to the muscle and blood stream, and the mamba's venom is a mixture between neurotoxins and cardiotoxins, the normal bite/injection direct to blood stream is, 100 - 120mg, only which 10 -15mg is it's LD50 ( Lethal Dose to 50% of Human Population.)

With that in perspective, if a Zoa could inject you with 100 -120mg, directly into your blood, It's cardiotoxin would be more deadly than that of the black mamba.

Norse

02/18/2009, 11:14 PM

I have read this thread from the beginning and IÂ´m very surprised. I always do my maintenance work without gloves and I donÂ´t knew how but my hands burn out a lot of time after introduce them in the water. I have about 15 kind of zoanthids in my tank and now I may have the answer for my skin irritation...
IÂ´m going to wear gloves next time... Thank you for the information!

lobsta™

03/02/2009, 11:19 PM

sooo....... i shouldn't eat my zoas?
:x X: :X :x x;

louie07

03/05/2009, 03:36 AM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=1629095#post1629095 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Shoestring Reefer
The link below has this quote:

"Palytoxin was first isolated from the soft coral Palythoa toxica. Several species of Palythoa are used in aquariums, but do not produce the toxin."

I don't know how reputable the site is, but here is the link:

http://www.cbwinfo.com/Biological/Toxins/Palytoxin.html

the site says that the toxin is found in "palythoa" corals. which when i look it up, these corals are your giant button polyps. NOT your zoos. zoos are from the family "zoanthus". i have heard many things about soft coral blood being toxic, so all corals must be toxic. but if someone died from "coral poisoning" you think it would be all over the news.... right? i mean, if you have a cut, you may get an infection, but nothing deadly.

i think people are emphasizing this A LOT!!!!!! if concerned be careful, i wash my hand before and after mataining my tank, and then i will go eat and have no problem! it makes sense..... THINK REALITY PEOPLE!

louie07

03/05/2009, 03:39 AM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14428490#post14428490 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Norse
I have read this thread from the beginning and IÂ´m very surprised. I always do my maintenance work without gloves and I donÂ´t knew how but my hands burn out a lot of time after introduce them in the water. I have about 15 kind of zoanthids in my tank and now I may have the answer for my skin irritation...
IÂ´m going to wear gloves next time... Thank you for the information!

this irritation may just be from the saltwater itself, or a small allergic reaction to something else. everyone seems to be assuming. i think we need to open our heads and think more of the obvious!

ok.... theres my 2 cents.... carry on

Bob1

03/24/2009, 03:50 PM

If you are not sure, glove them. No obituary columns on here!

NanoCube-boy

03/24/2009, 07:41 PM

I got my second zoanthid set and I handle them bare hand without cuts. Well, it's not a big deal, but if you have cuts, wear gloves, don't touch your face after handling them. Wash your hands throughly with soap twice.

Heres how I was my hands... after working on tank.

1.Rinse throughly in cold water only for 15seconds with high flow, that way if zoanthid juicy gets on your hand, it doesn't vapor much in cold water than warm water.

2. Apply soap, lather on hand and rinse under warm to hot water for 15seconds, to kill bacterias.

3. Dry your hands throughly with a clean cloths or napkins.

If you feel to use the restroom, hahahahaha wash and use step two to three. hahahahaha

sacremon

04/13/2009, 02:46 PM

Mind you, the source of the toxin is not thought to necessarily be the zoanthids or paly's themselves, but from a dinoflagellate, which would explain the broad distribution of this toxin in a variety of animals. Thus I wouldn't be too quick to assume zoas are safe as opposed to paly's, but on the other hand I would be less worried about handling a frag that was aquacultured vs. one that was collected from the ocean.

There is a recent report (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18451579?ordinalpos=18&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum) of a man in Japan who died after eating a cowfish. The symptoms were consistent with palytoxin - first weakness of his arms and lungs, then muscle tissue started to disintegrate, heart attack and kidney failure, brain death and then finally died after 16 days from eating the fish. I doubt the cowfish itself was generating the toxin, but rather it was from something it ate.

edit: a report (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18433818?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_Discovery_RA&linkpos=2&log$=relatedarticles&logdbfrom=pubmed) of a poisoning from handling zoas.

NanoCube-boy

04/13/2009, 07:13 PM

That's scary. Does that person have a cut on their hands or touch their mouth, eyes, noise or ears?

sacremon

04/13/2009, 09:34 PM

'skin injuries on the hands'. They analyzed the zoas and found that they were 2-3 mg/g palytoxin, which is a huge amount (that is 0.2-0.3% by weight of the zoa).

edit: If you are asking about the first guy - he ate it. Evidently ingesting the toxin is a viable route of administration as well.

32flavors

05/13/2009, 10:25 PM

Zoos were actually used in a form of Chemical warfare the same way Poison Dart Frogs were used. Indigenous peoples would dip the tips of their spears in them, and they were known to cause death. And this was hundreds of years ago. A well known (by people who study such things) anthropological fact of many islander peoples.

Also, a couple of weeks ago I was working with some yellow's and all of the sudden the paper towel I blotted them dry with to glue the on a rock was mustard yellow, and I looked at my fingers and they had the same yellow tincture look on them. I FREAKED OUT, and dropped everything and washed my hands immediately--soap and water, and I never use soap when I'm working in my tanks.

I don't understand why so many people are so skeptical--nature, especially sea life, has many such methods of self-protection.

NanoCube-boy

05/14/2009, 02:52 PM

Scary man... Just be careful.

madean

05/25/2009, 03:58 PM

This question might be answered already but if there is atoxin release in the tank what will take it out? Will it be skimmed out or will carbon absorb it? For those of you who prop zoa's and paly's what do you use for defense. I read somewhere that a guy set up a frag tank with a few thousand zoa's and the water evaporation contained toxin and when exposed to the evap. the guy had a respiratory reaction and also became sick from the exposure. So what do you farmers use as defense?

32flavors

05/25/2009, 04:05 PM

anything produced by an animal is organic, and therefore, can be skimmed out. I don't know it carbon directly would absorb it, but since it can absorb other organic compounds, it may be able to with the zoos as well. However, carbon is always plugged with organics within a few days...

I have to keep windows open in my house anyway, otherwise there isn't enough fresh o2 in the house and my tank's pH drops, so I don't worry about it. I would imagine any vent system used to handle evap / humidity could work for this as well.

I never used to use anything... just washed my hands after. But I had some yellow polyps "bleed" a yellow tincture that got on the paper towel I blotted them dry with and I saw it on my hands too. Freaked out and washed immediately. From now on, I'll retrieve with my hands, then once I have them out of the tank, I'll use gloves. :-)

bug

05/26/2009, 01:15 AM

I don't know if my questions was already answered, but how would I know if I am affected? I have some "zoo" 's and have been fiddling in my tank without gloves. Man, I am worried now as I have a cut on my hand, maybe more then one. Can symptoms start later or is it immediate.

I am sorry if I am sounding naÃ¯ve. Gloves at all times from now on. I guess it was pretty stupid of me to go in there bare handed to begin with.

I thought this tank was gonna help relax me. Guess not. lol

sacremon

05/26/2009, 10:23 AM

From the article that I linked, the person who became exposed from zoanthids first had swelling, tingling and numbness around the cut and then up the arm, followed by general weakness and dizziness, with some heart problems. The heart appears to be the target organ in terms of acute toxicity.

Given the structure of the compound, carbon might filter it out, but I'm not positive. Carbon works best on compounds that have aromatic rings, but there don't appear to be any in palytoxin. Same for skimming. It is listed as being very soluble in water, which would make it unlikely to be skimmed away.

I've been trying to find something that tells what color it is, without success at present. There are elements of the structure that would lead me to believe that it is not colorless, but that's about all I could say.

sacremon

05/26/2009, 03:03 PM

Finally found a couple references for the appearance of palytoxin: It is colorless.

madean

05/26/2009, 08:31 PM

sacremon so is it our opinion that the toxin cant be removed by a protein skimmer. I can see the logic that 32flavors has about being organic, but is the toxin organic. I read a lot about the toxin being present and the side affects and so on, but no one really has a solution, besides 32flavors, as to how to remove them from the tank. I could care less about it being in the water, i care about it getting in the air through evaporation and irritating the respiratory system.

sacremon

05/26/2009, 11:30 PM

It is organic, but you have to understand how skimmers work, that they simply don't remove everything organic. They remove hydrophobic materials, which are typically organic. However, if the organic is hydrophilic, the skimmer will not remove it. I would not expect a skimmer to remove simple sugars or alcohols, as they are very soluble in water. According to the literature, palytoxin is very soluble in water, so I would not expect a skimmer to remove it.

Palytoxin is not going to evaporate into the air. It could be aspirated/sprayed into the air and expose someone that way or as a dust from water that contained it evaporating entirely, but it won't simply go into the air via evaporation.

madean

05/27/2009, 01:44 AM

thanks for the clarification

Larah

06/03/2009, 05:17 PM

"No Reef-Love if you've got no Reef-Glove"
That is Hilarious! and I seriously think that you should contact Mythbusters and maybe they'll do a show on Zoanthid poision.

Honestly I truly think that one should always have respect for the creatures in their tanks. And I can attest that Zoanthids do have some poisionous qualoities. I have had their mucus in open wounds before ( hang nails, paper cuts, rough broken skin etc) and it does have a slight burning sensation and then my fingers or whatever part of my hand that got the toxin, swelled and felt sort of sore. But no death or dismemberment has occured! Though I won't rule it out.
Gloves are a good idea. I'm just so lazy......

NanoCube-boy

06/03/2009, 08:45 PM

to some certain extend, I think only certain people with severe health condition should becareful because their health is at bad state that little things can trgger them to a near life or death situation.

I would be very careful around them, I just have to make sure I don't have cuts.

madean

06/06/2009, 12:31 AM

a little safety never hurt after all everyone reacts differently to bee stings.. why would this be any different. And just because you have a mild reaction to a toxin, what ever it may be, does not mean that the next time you are exposed to said toxin the reaction might be different. I would rather be safe than to find out the hard way with a $5000 trip, via ambulance, to the er. Just some food for thought.

reeferoo

06/19/2009, 05:31 PM

I was wearing gloves and tore a frag overflowing with Palys off a rock to take to a frag swap.

I accidentally brushed the glove against my lip wiping my forehead with my arm.

At first I thought maybe I had little cuts on my lip and the salt water was making it burn.

Then it went into my mouth.

It tasted different- I knew right away what had happened. My whole mouth started to feel a little funny. And then the back of my throat. I did not want to drink anything acidic, like OJ so I tried a little milk.

My left eye watered for an hour and it burned and I swallowed and swallowed and it finally faded away about an hour and a half later.

NanoCube-boy

06/20/2009, 11:47 PM

scary............

dor

06/27/2009, 06:20 PM

I have read most this thread but not all, anyway not a both.

I can confirm that they are toxic/ produce toxins. yesterday I returned from the shop with a small Zoa, I used gloves and glasses to frag the zoa in half by snapping it, washed it and placed one bit in each of my tanks. Removed gloves carefully and wash everything anyway. All was well until...about an hour later when while setting the dinner table in the same room as the tank I noticed a brown splash up the wall, I thought what the hell is that?? Now i have a son who really likes his soya sauce and has been know to flick it every where, well needless to say he was questioned and to settle it I tasted the liquid on the wall not once but twice just to be sure. Anyway as suspected it tasted like soya sauce and the lad got the blame. The wife then pointed out that nobody had had soya sauce in the last week?? Then it clicked...**** the zoa's had squirt up the wall and I'd just tasted it ****... started washing mouth out under a running tap but still within minutes My tongue went numb and then tingling, started the feel hot, legs and arms started to feel odd etc, i just dialled 999 for help, told them what I had done with correct id etc, within minutes the ambalance was there whisking me off to the local hospital with a 150+ pulse, 160/90 blood pressure and a rised temp, they checked with the posion unit etc and said that it was a good job it had been on the wall for a while as it would have lost alot of it strength during that time.
All i can tell you is that it was a hell of a trip and not to be repeated. Back home now a feeling fine

Cheers DoR

madean

06/27/2009, 07:29 PM

dor- thanks for sharing your story- i hope it opens a few eyes. I saw that you dialed 999 and I thought it was a typo, but then I looked at where your from. Your emergency number in the UK is 999? ours is 911 here in the USA. I thought that was interesting being an EMT FF.

dor

06/27/2009, 07:58 PM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15267825#post15267825 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by madean
dor- thanks for sharing your story- i hope it opens a few eyes. I saw that you dialed 999 and I thought it was a typo, but then I looked at where your from. Your emergency number in the UK is 999? ours is 911 here in the USA. I thought that was interesting being an EMT FF.

Hi madean, well spotted, you are correct, 999 is the emergency number in the uk and the Paramedics which i believe is the same as a EMT FF??.

Worth adding that the doctor suggested that the meds I take for allergies will have helped.

Cheers DoR

dor

06/27/2009, 08:00 PM

Also had a metallic taste in my mouth.

might be worth knowing

scuba guy ron

06/27/2009, 09:12 PM

i have been in contact alot with zoas many times with cuts on my hand(since im always biting my nails...i know bad habit) and have never had any ill effects.

NanoCube-boy

06/29/2009, 12:19 AM

That is one scary story man, what have spook me the most are the heart rate and leg and arm part because I have cardiac condition and if I'm your situation, then it would be pretty deadly. Glad you are okay man because this corals is pretty dangerous to handle.

Meisen

07/01/2009, 02:01 PM

I know its been brought up before but there also may be some more complexity to which species have this toxin. Is it a reaction to being preyed upon (or fragged :) )? Is this something they systhesize from compounds in their natural food? Do different species have different compounds or are they all carrying varying amounts of the same toxin, anywhere from none to deadly? I guess I am going to continue to be cautious when I frag my palys and zoas.

zebrashark

07/02/2009, 01:11 PM

very interesting..i better get some gloves to be safe then

vanvelzen

07/21/2009, 03:46 PM

I've been following this topic with quite some interest as I'm a fan of zoanthids as well.

But how about removing some unwanted palythoa's without releasing too much palytoxins into the tank? (although not sure if these palythoa's do contain palytoxin at all, but better safe than sorry)

These palytoxins came with the live rock and are multiplying quite rapidly (fragmenting from the foot). I cannot remove the rock as it is an integral part of my reef and cannot be taken out without completely destroying a part of the tank.

Obviously, I will be using gloves but: a) what is the best way to remove them without risking too much palytoxins being released into the tank?

http://i875.photobucket.com/albums/ab315/hansje68/mini-IMG_3568.jpg

TheCoralNabber

07/31/2009, 05:10 PM

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=15451028#post15451028

A recent encounter with polytoxin from dead palythoa on LR I just purchased.

DAftPunker

08/20/2009, 05:44 PM

I am still a firm believe that it is your own basic chemistry. You may or may not be allergic to it. For one don't eat it. If you have open cuts/sores don't put your hands in the tank or frag. Again, don't eat or drink anything out of the tank. I would be most concerned with wearing safety goggles though because anything in the eye is not good.

Unless somebody has legit lab tests when they get 'sick' saying it's a palytoxin, I am not going to buy the fact that a fever, headache, sore throat is a paly toxin. There are a bunch of different virus morphs and bacteria species out there that can cause those same symptoms.

Self diagnosis without any true lab results is like saying you have bacterial meningitis for 2 days cuz you have a sore neck from a concert you went to...

I've read a bunch over this massive catalog of information (mostly useless) called the internet and nothing is completely conclusive on this subject. I have not found a single legit institute site claiming the deadly toxins of palythoas. If this was such a hot topic with all the corals on the market, don't you maybe think a marine biologist PhD student, at least 1 would have done their thesis on it's toxicity? I'm having a hard time searching academic journals finding anything.

Someone made a good point though, that you should use gloves, and I would suggest safety goggles as I said above, and if you wanna be extra cautious get a sand blasting mask. If you happen to coincidentally get sick after fragging or handling zoas, and you go to the doctor or hospital, TELL THEM. That is why they get a background...

That being said, I am not a marine biologist, nor am I a doctor, but I do know how they do and don't affect me so far, and what I will do is take precautions when dealing with them, but I'm not going to worry or have fear of keeping them in my tank. Nor do I think they will affect my tank either.

DAftPunker

08/20/2009, 05:50 PM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15267581#post15267581 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by dor
I have read most this thread but not all, anyway not a both.

I can confirm that they are toxic/ produce toxins. yesterday I returned from the shop with a small Zoa, I used gloves and glasses to frag the zoa in half by snapping it, washed it and placed one bit in each of my tanks. Removed gloves carefully and wash everything anyway. All was well until...about an hour later when while setting the dinner table in the same room as the tank I noticed a brown splash up the wall, I thought what the hell is that?? Now i have a son who really likes his soya sauce and has been know to flick it every where, well needless to say he was questioned and to settle it I tasted the liquid on the wall not once but twice just to be sure. Anyway as suspected it tasted like soya sauce and the lad got the blame. The wife then pointed out that nobody had had soya sauce in the last week?? Then it clicked...**** the zoa's had squirt up the wall and I'd just tasted it ****... started washing mouth out under a running tap but still within minutes My tongue went numb and then tingling, started the feel hot, legs and arms started to feel odd etc, i just dialled 999 for help, told them what I had done with correct id etc, within minutes the ambalance was there whisking me off to the local hospital with a 150+ pulse, 160/90 blood pressure and a rised temp, they checked with the posion unit etc and said that it was a good job it had been on the wall for a while as it would have lost alot of it strength during that time.
All i can tell you is that it was a hell of a trip and not to be repeated. Back home now a feeling fine

Cheers DoR

I didn't catch this before making my post. Maybe the best story so far, but as I said in my last post, you shouldn't eat anything out of the tank. Did they give you a anti-toxin or anything for it?

nes999

08/24/2009, 01:18 AM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15076650#post15076650 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by bug
I don't know if my questions was already answered, but how would I know if I am affected? I have some "zoo" 's and have been fiddling in my tank without gloves. Man, I am worried now as I have a cut on my hand, maybe more then one. Can symptoms start later or is it immediate.

I am sorry if I am sounding naÃ¯ve. Gloves at all times from now on. I guess it was pretty stupid of me to go in there bare handed to begin with.

I thought this tank was gonna help relax me. Guess not. lol

within minuets ive got "stung" i knew withing a few min but then again since then ive handle without gloves and no ill affects

NanoCube-boy

08/26/2009, 05:49 PM

gotten stun by my Button Corals and I did feel weird for awhile.

Whitebird1

09/13/2009, 10:55 PM

I posted this on NJRC and it applies to this thread. Learned my lesson!
Hope this helps to spread the word.
POSTS-
While playing with my frags I got some on me, not good. Then fresh water dipping and swooshing around, I got the water on my arms, again not good, no details, but has anyone dealt with this?? Cortizone, nothing is working!
POST-
Quote
If really bad the emergency room.
Not a that stage, but not good.
Quote
It looked like poison ivy and itched like crazy for days.
That describes it but on a higher level or too ,Been a month since the main exposer, very slow healing, like a chemical burn.
Quote
has this happened before? cause you play with lotsa zoos. was it a particular one that caused it?
First Time did not were gloves, not a immediate reaction, but DAMM, after a few days i new I screwed up. Second Time Was splash above the gloves on the arm. Just plain zoos, 12 or do types. They were seceating Mucus, Thats the bad stuff.

Follow up- Finally went to the Doctor, been about 5 weeks, never healed. He knew exactly what it was and how to treat it! Three day into it and I am healing nicely. Heavy oral steroids, 37 tabs of 10MG Prednisone in 9 days and clobetasol ointment, topical, twice a day,(Super High Potency). This is more commonly known as Coral contact dermatitis and Nonhealing pruritic rash.
Note-This cannot be treated at home, neosporin, Cortizone ect. are useless.
http://www.cortlandtforum.com/Nonhealing-pruritic-rash-after-a-visit-to-the-Caribbean/article/118799/2/

HUNTINREDNECK

09/22/2009, 03:43 PM

i see

sabien

12/05/2009, 04:36 AM

Scary stuff. I will be much more aware when touching these guys and washing my hands

jefferino

12/16/2009, 06:57 PM

Wow, I never thought of zoas being dangerous!

firebirdude

12/16/2009, 06:59 PM

I've watched my local LFS handle rocks packed with zoas like they weren't even there. Hundreds of times. I asked him about this, and his response was "I've been handling these for years this way without anything happening."

cmbspd

01/26/2010, 04:11 PM

As a brand new reefer with a couple of zoa "volunteers" on my new liverock, I'm very interested in this topic. I just did a very cursory search of the scientific literature for palytoxin - skimming for information about its origin. Here's what one paper (Ciminiello et al 2009). I've bolded the important parts.

"The level and content of PLTXs in toxic Palythoa spp. have been reported to vary significantly among species, populations of the same species, and even seasonally (2, 13). The assumption that PLTXs are actually produced by bacteria (2, 14) or microalgae presumably existing symbiotically with Palythoa (15) has also been defended. Sporadic occurrence of PLTXs in algae (15), crabs (16a, 16b), and fish (17) alike indicates that microorganisms could represent the real source of these toxins.

Recently, dinoflagellates belonging to the genus Ostreopsis have been proposed to be probable biogenetic originators of PLTXs. This follows from identification of three PLTX analogues from Ostreopsis spp., namely, (1) ostreocin-D from Ostreopsis siamensis (18), (2) mascarenotoxins from Ostreopsis mascarenensis (19), and (3) ovatoxin-a from Ostreopsis ovata (20)."

It sounds like this whole scenario might be very similar to tetrodotoxins in poison dart frogs. In the natural environment, conditions are right for the organisms to acquire these toxins but in captivity they rapidly lose any toxicity. You have to have Ostreopsis dinoflagellates to have toxic Palythoas. That said...I did find a couple of clinical cases of relatively rock solid poisonings, but almost always from eating fish. Here is one bona fide case from captive coral:

Hoffmann et al 2008 "A case of human poisoning by palytoxin after contact with zoanthid corals (Parazoanthus sp.) in an aquarium through skin injuries on fingers is reported. The clinical symptoms include swelling, paraesthesia and numbness around the site of the injury spreading over the arm, but also signs of systemic poisoning such as dizziness, general weakness and myalgia, irregularities in the ECG and indications of rhabdomyolysis. Symptomatic treatment consisted of infusion of physiological fluids. The patient recovered within 3 days. Analysis of the zoanthid coral involved revealed extremely high concentrations of palytoxin (between 2 and 3 mg/g)."

I won't draw any conclusions, but just wanted people to have something besides anecdotal evidence.

noobtothereef

02/10/2010, 11:49 PM

Err...try again. Mechanics have abnormally high levels of cancer in their trade. Most long term mechanics I know of, die of cancer. Even the ones that don't drink or smoke.

I had no idea these guys were toxic. I always wash my hands after working around the tank, but this is good info. Sure, reefers may not drop like flies, but it's not a bad idea to take preventitive measures.

The daddy long leg spider also has a very potent toxin, but it's not able to deliver it to humans, only its prey. I'm guessing however a Zoo is set up to utilize the toxin, means it normally can't hurt a human.

Errr try again?? 99% of the mechanics i know are alcoholics and smoke like chimneys, most mechanics dont get paid squat and have a certain "lifestyle" that just comes with low paying jobs in the trade, do you think they get cancer from having greasy hands? Seriously?

noobtothereef

02/10/2010, 11:54 PM

soon you will see guys in space suits while fraggin zoo's.....

MUCHO REEF

06/14/2010, 08:56 PM

An ounce of prevention is what...?

RR37

06/23/2010, 08:23 AM

WhiteBird, sounds like you just got reef rash. Surfers get it all the time.

If anyone actually had any level of exposure to PLTX they would be dead within minutes. You can get a bacterial infection in many different ways, many types of marine life being one of them. Im doubting that any of the P's in this hobby actually contain PLTX, not saying it doesn't exist, just that it has been grossly hyped.

Whitebird1

06/25/2010, 01:49 AM

Well, some are in dis belief, well something hit me hard. For notes, I was dipping est. 200 Assorted Zoo and Paly frags in water that I did not know was acidic.
Major slime. Last September I believe. Well 2 MDs and 2 dermatologists later, well, not healed, gets bad, gets not so bad.
Any Experts on here that have any suggestions I would appreciate the advice.
The ones who doubt, well, keep on playing with them!! But do not advise others to do the same.
Never posted a pic before, right hand, cream on it, finger tips cracking, took it 5 min ago, this is , this is 9 month later!!
http://i654.photobucket.com/albums/uu269/WhitebirdNJRC/100_3250.jpg?t=1277444848

Whitebird1

06/25/2010, 02:08 AM

I won't draw any conclusions, but just wanted people to have something besides anecdotal evidence
One of my favs, did the home work.
DID I MENTION IT HURTS LIKE H@LL!
just scaring the noobs!

billsreef

06/26/2010, 07:06 AM

Last September I believe. Well 2 MDs and 2 dermatologists later, well, not healed, gets bad, gets not so bad.

Did any of those docs consider and test for Mycobacterium marinum, aka fish turburculosis? That would be consistent with the long term infection.

gothicgirl

06/27/2010, 12:36 AM

wait whaaaat! zoanthids, the common non-stony coral that comes in so many awesome colors, can kill you?? 0-0 i dont understand, can it only hurt you through an open wound (or open mouth :p ) and are ALL of them like this??

Whitebird1

06/29/2010, 01:40 AM

Bill you may have nailed it, seeing the MD in the am!
All zoos have the potential to be harmful, some much more than others. Coral rash, toxins, bacteria, Poison spines on fish Ect, is what I have been learning about!! Perhaps 90+ % of what we keep in our tanks are harmless, but a few really pack a potent punch.
A NEW STICKY THREAD ON HAZARDS IN OUR HOBBY may be a good idea.
I started work on this and it may be a bit off topic, but, seems nowhere else yet to post it, its long and only a part of what I have found, but can be interesting reading.
GregH

Protists/Single Celled Organisms
Algae as a whole produces what are termed phycotoxins. Dinoflagellates are single celled, flagellated algae that have a wide range of toxic outcomes and a wide range of life stages, some of which are toxic, some of which are not.

Cyanobacteria are also known to produce toxins. Lyngbya sp. These cyanobacters produce ypaoamide Toxin.
In relation to human relevance, if a bloom occurs and an aquarist is exposed to aerosol or in contact with the water, it can cause adverse reactions. An example occurred in a lab at NC State University in which lab technicians were severely affected neurologically when dealing with a Pfiesteria culture. Most environmental, algal based intoxications occur as a result of consumption of fish or shellfish or contact with aerosol near the ocean. Shellfish poisonings, thought to have an algal etiology, include paralytic shellfish poisoning (saxitoxin), amnesic shellfish poisoning (domoic acid), diarrheic shellfish poisoning (okadaic acid), and erythematous (internal bleeding) shellfish poisoning.

Porifera/Sponges
The rapid development of the pharmaceutical market has brought about a bloom of information regarding various toxins native to the sponges. Evidence that sponges contain many toxins is easily noted by empirical observation in that algal overgrowth is rarely seen and predation rates are low. Each sponge may produce a host of different compounds that are in some way toxic.
Coelenterates/Cnidarians
This group of animals is of greatest interest to most reef aquarists. Included are the hydroids, jellyfish, anemones and corals. Most members of this group, however, are innocuous to humans, although most contain nematocysts (figure A) which can cause dermatitis in sensitive individuals. Many have felt the not-so-gentle caress of a fire coral! There are approximately 40 species known to be dangerous to people. A great many more are likely dangerous to tank inhabitants. This is especially important when mixing animals from different regions in a single aquarium. An Atlantic Condylactis anemone, for example, has a very powerful sting and readily consumes many Indo-Pacific fish on first contact.
The true corals are only recently coming under more scrutiny as far as their toxic components, although as with all cnidarians, they appear to have both peptide and chemical toxins. The toxins, however, are very more difficult to extract in quantities relevant for research due to low amounts of soft tissue on most scleractinian corals. Incidences of coral envenomation can result in ulcer development and become exceedingly painful, even so severe that it becomes disabling to the individual, although recovery usually occurs. This is something to consider regarding tank maintenance
Treatment for stings (in humans) is based mainly on effects. However, the common misconception of urinating on stings is false and increases nematocyst discharge making symptoms worse. Vinegar and meat tenderizer work well by breaking down the proteins involved. Hydrogen peroxide is highly suggested to debride coral wounds and prevent secondary infection after exposure, both at home and at the beach.
Treatment of tank occupants is not really an option as the amount of venom injected on a comparative scale is high and handling of fish is usually more detrimental than helpful. Mild stings to fish are usually of little concern, but some anemones have a powerful enough sting to paralyze fish. This is especially a concern as regards species that rest on the substrate such as gobies, blennies, and hawkfish.
Echinoderms
This group includes the sea stars, brittle stars, urchins, and cucumbers and contains some 5,300 species. The brittle stars and sea stars are generally not known to be toxic, with the one exception, the Crown of Thorns (Acanthaster planci) star
The urchins are more commonly venomous and have one of two types of venom apparatus: spines (many tipped by venom glands, such as with Diadema) or pedicellariae, which are located internal to the spines and have a form of jaw- or scissor-like pincers. Intoxication by urchins is most commonly from stings
Cucumbers, or holothurians, produce a generic toxin named holothurin or holotoxin. Most cucumbers store this toxin in the Organs of Cuvier, which means that envenomation is not a concern. Intoxication by cucumbers occurs via contact with ejected liquid (known to cause blindness or dermatitis) or from ingestion. The discovery of holotoxin was made in 1929 by a Japanese scientist named Yamanouchi. He noted that fish placed into tanks with cucumber tissue extracts died within minutes. The toxin is mainly in the body wall and causes loss of motor control (coordination and reflexes) which can end in paralysis. . Twenty four of 27 Indo-Pacific species tested were toxic. . The four “worst” species are: H. axiologa, H. atra, S. variegates, and T. ananas. The toxin affects fish by entering via the gills. Cucumbers also release toxins under stressful conditions, such as when physical trauma occurs
Mollusks
Snails, bivalves (clams) and octopi make up this family of organisms. Bivalves are typically not directly toxic but serve as major vectors for algal based toxins, such as ciguatera, and the various effectors of shellfish poisoning. Callistin and venerupin poisonings from their consumption are common. The two species reported to be toxic in and of themselves are Tridacna gigas and maxima, but these also may be due to accumulation of toxins from an algal diet as well, as no toxin has been isolated and identified.
The snails and slugs have a few members who are both venomous and poisonous. Whelks, for example Cone snails are the most deadly of the mollusks Most human intoxications are a result of handling these pretty shells while the animal within is still alive and getting stung as a result. The effect in vertebrate animals is severe paralysis usually leading to asphyxiation. Accidental introduction of this genus to a home aquarium would be very dangerous
Nudibranchs, or sea slugs, have a few defensive toxins. Some isolated toxins from nudibranchs mirror those common to the corals. Terpenes and nerve interruptive compounds have been found in a few sea slug species in the eggs and skin. The most common form of defense is not native to the nudibranchs, but rather involves capturing nematocysts from other stinging organisms that they consume as prey and using these nematocysts by storing them in cnidosacs for future use. Some, however, do secrete toxins called crinotoxins, although they are no real threat to a tank or to humans in small quantity. The purified toxin is very mild.
The octopuses have a toxin as well. Most bites from octopuses are very mild and only cause a burning/itching sensation in the limb, although severe cases have been reported that include ‘severe feeling of detachment and paralysis’. The most venomous of the group are H. lunulata, O. macropus, and O. vulgaris. The Blue Ring Octopus (Hapalochlaena lunulata) appears in the trade on occasion and should be respected and only attempted by advanced aquarists with the proper tank setup and understanding.
Worms
Platyhelminthes is the only class of flatworms worth noting as being poisonous. The Turbellaria family are free living types that have a chemical defense system to ward off predation
Annelids or segmented worms are those we all know well. The ‘bristle worms’ as the most common marine annelids in reef tanks are described, typically only cause irritation due to setae stings. The setae are hollow and possibly filled with mild venom. The toxin is generally just a dermal irritant to humans.

Bryozoans
Upon contact with skin, Bryozoans or Moss Animals, can cause a fairly severe dermatitis and burning sensation, although the toxin and the mechanism of action are both unknown for these colonial animals. These are found in temperate and tropical environments worldwide.