Don't want to mess up again can anyone help me?

[CeeGee]

I posted this here as it is about the fish that I have bought in the past and intend to buy in the future. I bought a carpenters fairy wrasse and he is currently in quarantine.

In the past I have owned several fairies and flashers with varying degrees of "success". Most of the fairies and flashers that have made it out of quarantine and into the main tank have died of what appears to be starvation. They are alert, active and most importantly they eat like pigs. Yet the starve over a period of 6-12 months.

My solar was actually on his death bed and got up and ate before going back down on his side and dying 10 minutes later. I had him over a year. With such a long period of time I don't think the culprit is cyanide. I believe it to be internal parasites which I treat for (read below).

My quarantine procedure in the past has been to get the fish acclimated. Let it settle in for a day or two and then begin a treatment of copper power whether they show signs of ich or not.

After that I have used a prazi-pro treatment to treat (supposedly) for internal parasites and flukes. After that if the fish is active, alert and eating like crazy into the display tank they go.

I started this procedure on the recommendation of the user justdave who is the owner of kermits reef in Memphis, TN. He is one of those guys who has it down and is able to keep fish that most people find impossible. I don't have that blue thumb but wish I did.

If anyone can help me solve what I am doing wrong I would appreciate the help. I have asked a few people that have quite a few of these fish and they don't seem to have this problem. For the record that fish in question have come from my LFS, Divers Den and Phishy Business.

I just want some success with these fish and I intend to start with the one in my quarantine tank. As of right now I have not began any treatments as the fish seems healthy at the moment.

Thanks for any and all help,
C.G.

[rhoptowit]

i personally dont treat the fish if they show no signs of disease or parasite. wrasses from my experience tend to be more sensitive to medication compared to others.

can internal parasites be the reason? i read/heard fish can survive happily with or with out them, provided you take good care of the fish.

[snorvich]

I agree. Treating a fish with no symptoms is a bad idea.

[Gwynhidwy]

I respectfully disagree that treating a fish with no symptoms is a bad idea. I feel that placing a fish that has not been treated for Crypt into a DT is a bad idea, since often times a fish will be harboring a small amount of the parasite in their gills, unseen, and asymptomatic.

While fish can live with many intestinal parasites, others will kill them in time and certainly some fish succumb more easily than others. Praziquantel is a great dewormer, but I have found that it does not always work the first time and usually do a large water change, dose the new water, and treat a second time. Some people have had success with soaking food items to get more Praziquantel into the gut.

With that amount of time involved I would suspect internal parasites or malnutrition as well, but your wrasse getting up and eating and then dieing so soon is odd. I doubt it is from the copper treatments.

Is your difficulty only with wrasses? If so, what other fish do you have and do you handle their care the same? What are you feeding and how often? Are you sure your DT is not contaminated with flukes? Could your tank be experiencing periods of low dissolved oxygen?

FWIW, I have kept numerous "difficult" species over the years with success, but no matter what I do I cannot keep gobies alive long term. I too have tried several specimens, from different reputable sources, and while all of my other fish seem healthy and die from old age, all of my gobies die within 4-6 months. At this point I have just accepted that for whatever reason, gobies and I don't get along.

[CeeGee]

The difficulty has mainly been with wrasses as those are the fish that I want in my reef. I have a royal gramma that has been with me for around 8 years. He has some fin damage that doesn't seem to heal but he is no worse for wear (do you know how get his fins back in shape?. I also have a clownfish that lives in my quarantine tank (keeps the filter going) and she has been with me for 10 years.

All of my experiences with fairy wrasses have not been bad. I had an exquisite for over 3 years and he was perfectly healthy. I lost him at the beginning of the year when I upgraded tanks. For whatever reason he just didn't like the new tank and croaked on me. I attribute the 3 years and great health to receiving a healthy specimen to start with. He came from Divers Den.

All "bad" experiences with these fish (providing that they lived through quarantine, some of these fish have been in such bad shape they literally died within days of introduction. They constitute flames which are known to be difficult shippers and lubbocks purchased from my LFS that were probably cyanide because I believe they are phillipines). They have all died from the same "starvation" over a period of 6-15 months.

I feed frozen mysis, Marine Cuisine, NLS pellets, some Ocean Nutrition flakes. For the record I have asked several people who seem to have very good luck with these fish what they feed and I get really generic responses like "I feed them mysis and that is really all". It seems to me that I should vary the diet a little.

Can you explain the proper use of Prazi-Pro to make sure I am doing it correctly and does the medication go bad over time? I don't see an expiration date on the bottle anywhere.

also is there anything else one can do to eradicate internal parasites?

I have never had this problem with any other fish in 20 years in the hobby. My experience is generally if they make it through quarantine and there is no aggression in the display they will stay with me for a long time.

[snorvich]

There is no problem treating a fish for internal parasites as a preventive prophylactic. But treating fish with copper, in my opinion, should only be done in response to a specific problem. Treating with copper properly is very stressful for a fish. But again, it is simply what I do, and I have a LOT of wrasses.

[CeeGee]

Maybe the copper is causing internal damage?

Like I said I started this routine after speaking with justdave. From what I was able to gather he does this with no ill effects and keeps everything under the sun. I saw his display in person and it is still burned into my mind.

[Kieth71]

I have read that copper in certain fish can cause problems with bacteria benefical to the fish.Tangs are one of the fish that this can happend to.The problem is that if you just watch a fish in qt for 6 weeks and dont treat when you add to the dt stress from the other fish can break down the immune system of fish and the parasite(that the fish has had all along) gets the edge on the fish.I treat all fish with prazi pro for 2-7 day treatments before adding them to my display.If they dont make it i take the position that they would have died in my display anyways and brought along whatever bad things they had with them to my display.I go back and forth on treating further as i have had bad luck in certain cases with copper and hypo.I have decided recently that treating the fish with dewormer(prazipro) watch the fish get them eating well and then after 6 weeks i introduce them to the display right before lights out.I believe that keeping ich out of your display although not impossible is tough and unless your willing to treat for it for every fish you introduce which may cause death in qt.

[reefergeorge]

I run hypo for a few weeks, and treat with prazipro on all new fish.
May be overkill, but I have never lost a fish in my display in five years.

[bradleyj]

I don't know if I can give anymore advice than what has already been given. I can only tell you that I haven't ever quarantined any of my wrasses that I have. When I started my obsession with these beautiful creatures I had read that it was critical to get them back into a somewhat calm surroundings and that stress was the # 1 cause for Ich and poor health and death.
I was told to get them in right after acclimation.
I know this might sound wrong to some, but I have had good success with this. CeeGee, I hope this helps you a bit. I don't buy fish that look bad, or don't use their tale to swim around, I look to make sure they are active and not breathing under distress.
My favorite place to buy these fish are from Divers Den and one local outfit that I know and trust very well. Zemuron sells to him I believe. I feed my fish a full variety of prepared food. I My downstairs looks like a pet store with all the food I have. 2-4 times a day depending on how much I'm home throughout the day. Excellent water quality is a must in my book also. I do weekly 10-15% waterchanges and I have excellent equipment running my system.

[snorvich]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14536481#post14536481 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by reefergeorge
I run hypo for a few weeks, and treat with prazipro on all new fish.
May be overkill, but I have never lost a fish in my display in five years.

I think this is good practice.

[CeeGee]

This probably got overlooked in my long winded posts so I will ask this again.

Can anyone explain the proper use of Prazi-Pro to make sure I am doing it correctly and does the medication go bad over time? I don't see an expiration date on the bottle anywhere.

Thank you everyone for your help.

Once again bradleyj this is the kind of post that baffles my mind. I do everything I can to make sure the fish are healthy and will have a good life and I fail miserably. Someone like you can put the fish straight into the display and have incredible success. I am in no way knocking you as what you are doing is working wonderfully. I would hate to see you add a fish though and watch it take out your immaculate collection. It seems really really risky to me.

What all do you feed your wrasses? (pertaining to the pet store comment) as I have gotten really generic answers when I have asked what to feed these fish.

[bradleyj]

I feed Dianichi pellets, Spectrum pellets, Formula 2 pellets,
Ocean Nutrition flakes Formula 1,2, spirulina, brineshrimp.
Frozen, I feed mysis, Bryne, emerald entree, angel, Rods food. Cyclopeez. Not all at once of course, but varie it from day to day.
Pellets mostly during the day, and then 4 cubes of frozen at night.

[Kieth71]

The way i use prazi pro is to put 1 tsp per 20g of water.I usually drip it along the edge of the tank to spread it around.After 5 days i do a 20g water change in my 55g qt and then dose the same amount again.After another 5-7 days i do another water change and then run carbon as well.I have no idea on the expiration of prazipro or how long it takes to go bad.Hope this helps-Kieth

[Gwynhidwy]

I follow the directions on the bottle, 1 teaspoon per 20 gallons of water. I run that for seven days, do a large water change, and dose the water I add to the QT with 1 teaspoon per 20 gallons and run that for seven days. I then do another large water change, 75% or so and run carbon and purigen. It is VERY important to shake praziquantel VERY well!

The only other option that I am aware of to eliminate internal parasites are the prepared, medicated foods that are available. I haven't used them so I cannot comment on their effectiveness.

To treat or not for things like Crypt and velvet is a big discussion and there are many different protocols that work for different people. I treat all my fish with Cupramine because I believe that when used correctly it is not any more stressful or detrimental to the health of the fish than hypo, and it is more effective against Crypt as well as being effective against other diseases like velvet, which hypo is not. While this has worked well for me, other people prefer other methods and are just as successful. I say go with what makes the most sense to you and then fiddle with your protocol if you have problems.

I am not familiar with the brand of copper treatment that you are using, but if it is unbound then at therapeutic levels it can cause internal damage to the fish as well as harming any beneficial organisms that live in/on the fish both of which can cause long term problems and/or death. This is a big problem with herbivorous fish as they cannot properly digest their food without their intestinal bacteria to assist. However, it is my understanding that medications that bind the copper to an amine group are not very toxic to either the fish or their intestinal microbes at their directed, therapeutic doses.

[snorvich]

Good advice from Gwynhidwy. I believe treating for internal parasites preemptively is a good practice. If you are buying fish from an LFS that has a shared water system, preemptive treatment with Cupramine may also be a good idea. Since I only buy from LA, I do not treat preemptively with Cupramine. Hypo is tricky and may, as mentioned above, be more dangerous for a fish's health that Cupramine.