Piping from Sump...Flex or Rigid?

[Reefer2727]

Thinking of having 2 returns (no holes drilled) from my sump, one in each top corner. I ill be using a submersible return pump, what is the best way to pipe this back? My main question is if you are not using a bulkhead fitting (no hole), how do you secure the piping (flex or rigid) to go over the back of the tank and sit nicely. Any pics would be great.

[java]

the return is the one on the right, with the little bit of white showing, it just hanges on the lip of the tank, but its zip tied to teh overflow that is next to it. i think you would want to secure it somehow, mie was OK just hanging but its much better zip tied.

http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/8149/dscn2588.jpg (http://img26.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dscn2588.jpg)

[Reefer2727]

Thanks Java,

Zip ties are a good call.

[james3370]

i did a solid top on my stand. doing a 1.5" line thru the bottom, so i drilled a 2" hole. planning on running flex thru the hole & put a 1.5" t-fitting & then doing rigid pvc up to the top of the tank for my dual tank returns.

since the 1.5" t-fitting is larger that the hole, it won't fall thru the hole & the 1.5" pvc external dimension is about 1 7/8" so in a 2" hole the whole thing should have minimal movement

i'm also planning on clamping the flex in the sump area to the back wall so there will definately be no movement

[Reefer2727]

Sounds like a great set up Java.

Another question regarding piping. WHere on a system do you typically put valves for flow control? drain side, return side or both??

[uncleof6]

Where you can get to them easily.:D The flow through the drains, assuming they are properly designed and sized, is controlled by the return flow. The simplest flow control is a gate valve in the return line (finer tuning control than a ball valve) that also assumes that you have a pump that responds well to being throttled back. You should have valves where ever it would be advantageous to stop the flow for service and cleaning.

HTH,

Jim

[Reefer2727]

Thanks Jim,

Are there decent gate valves to mate with the pvc set up?

The only ones I have seen seem heavy duty. Do you have to moun them or something?

[Reefer2727]

Also,

Doesn't restricting the flow from the return defeat the purpose of having a good pump? More flow is usually better is it not?

I am totally new to his. Wouldnt it be better to have a little oversized drain and balance the flow that way? That way you would use the pump to full capacity?

[uncleof6]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14550661#post14550661 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Reefer2727
Thanks Jim,

Are there decent gate valves to mate with the pvc set up?

The only ones I have seen seem heavy duty. Do you have to moun them or something?

Yes those heavy duty ones (Grey PVC) are the ones you want to use. You are going to support your plumbing, anyway-- so it don't break right? Ignore the position of the gate valve on the big pump here as I did not have a ball valve when this pic was taken:

http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/uu274/uncleof6/DSCN0216.jpg

and ignore the check valve on this one taken in 2004, as it is a bad idea:

http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/uu274/uncleof6/64977P7280001.jpg

HTH,

Regards,

Jim

[uncleof6]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14550688#post14550688 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Reefer2727
Also,

Doesn't restricting the flow from the return defeat the purpose of having a good pump? More flow is usually better is it not?

I am totally new to his. Wouldnt it be better to have a little oversized drain and balance the flow that way? That way you would use the pump to full capacity?

More flow is better up to the point of 5 X the total water volume, yes. (this is conventional wisdom, some prefer much higher) and circulation is a different system altogether.

The pump in the first picture, is a Dart rated @ 3500 gph and responds well to being "throttled back." If you are going to run accessories such as reactors, a fuge, etc. A good way to do that is branching your return line, and you have to throttle the return line to get sufficient water to flow through the branch plumbing. Your drain lines should be sized to handle the full capacity of your pump anyway, in case something goes haywire. (With safety margins) especially with "good" pumps. 3000 gph over the side of your tank, will definately kill the "WAF"

Regards,

Jim

[Reefer2727]

Thanks for the reply Uncleof 6

I got ya. As far as the sump goes. When throttling back the return lines, strategically what aspects of the sump like heavy/mid/low flow.

More specifically, if you found the skimmer area flow was too much, would you divert some to the return area?

By the way what does (WAF) mean I said I was a rookie.

[uncleof6]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14552215#post14552215 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Reefer2727
Thanks for the reply Uncleof 6

I got ya. As far as the sump goes. When throttling back the return lines, strategically what aspects of the sump like heavy/mid/low flow.

More specifically, if you found the skimmer area flow was too much, would you divert some to the return area?

By the way what does (WAF) mean I said I was a rookie.

No, because that is where the "excess" water flowing in the skimmer section is going to go anyway. The skimmer section and return sections are not flow sensitive, and is determined by what you are pumping up to the tank. The refuge, is another story--sort of. It wants a moderate, gentle flow. Easy to do with a branch from the return line, with control valves. This is the "flow chart:"

drain

skimmer section > Return < Refugium

with a branch from the return line to the refuge.

and this is what it looks like:

http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/uu274/uncleof6/sump3.jpg

The advantages of an "All-in-One" sump far outweigh additional expense, and technical aspects of it's construction.:)

OH! And WAF = Wife Approval Factor

Regards,

Jim

[uncleof6]

Reefer2727,

I sent you a pm.

Jim

[uncleof6]

BTW, as to go further with your original question, I would use hard pipe for manifolds and valves, and over the back. in between it does not really matter.

Jim

[Reefer2727]

Thanks again Jim,

If you can believe it I am still confused...lol. I think I was confusing the drain to sump and return to tank lines.

And I am such a moron I cant really grasp your flow chart. I am sad. Anyway:

Return line from the sump to the tank can be valved so some goes to the fuge?

Also, I thought the skimmer was section was flow sensitive as the water can be moving too quick to efficiently skim??

[uncleof6]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14553465#post14553465 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Reefer2727
Thanks again Jim,

If you can believe it I am still confused...lol. I think I was confusing the drain to sump and return to tank lines.

And I am such a moron I cant really grasp your flow chart. I am sad. Anyway:

Return line from the sump to the tank can be valved so some goes to the fuge?

Also, I thought the skimmer was section was flow sensitive as the water can be moving too quick to efficiently skim??

"Return line from the sump to the tank can be valved so some goes to the fuge?"

Yes

"Also, I thought the skimmer was section was flow sensitive as the water can be moving too quick to efficiently skim?? "

Depends on your point of view. Skimming occurs inside the skimmer. Not in the water flowing around the skimmer. Say the skimmer requires.... ~750 gph to operate efficiently. A good internal skimmer has it's own supply pump. That pump is rated @ 750 gph. It matters not a toot in H*** whether the water around the skimmer is moving at 1 gph. or 3600 gph, that skimmer is going to pull 750gph out of it, the rest is going over the baffle. I do see what you are getting at. Very few tanks require 3600 gph through the sump. The good pumps such as the darts, can push that, but due to head loss, do not. You are wanting the water to stay in the skimmer section longer to increase skimming i.e. recirculating the water before it leaves the skimmer section. So lets look at some numbers.

Most pumps are overated by the manufacturer.

The Dart can be safely throttled back to 400 gph per the label.

It fizzels out @ 12' of head pressure.

@ 4' head pressure, it is rated @ 3035 gph. that is the height going up to the average tank ( obviously that varies to some extent). Add a couple of elbows, a tee, robo fittings @ 3/4" max, you can easily hit 7 to 8 ft of head pressure without trying. And your flow is now ~2200. Feed the fuge lets say, 400 gph. (that might be high, it might be low, so now you are @ 1800 gph. say your system has 180 gallons total water volume. Standard 150 with good size sump) 5 times 180 = 900 gph. So now you have 900 gph left over, gunna need a chiller? you are in canada so maybe not :D
Add 3 metal halides to the mix and even there you might. Ok so now you are running a chiller... so on it goes. So with a turn of the gate valve, you have throttled back the pump, because the flow is a bit high going through the system, but trust me you are not wasting that pump.you can see that by the numbers. The advice in this is: planning and design, matching components If a dart is too big, get a smaller pump. But often that is not the answer, as in the real world it is often not as advertised. Oh my logic just amazes me :D

Jim

[Reefer2727]

I pray I dont need a chiller. I am only running T5's but I am moving into a place that doesn't have air conditioning pretty soon. Summers here can get pretty warm. I can't get into the chiller stuff. I may not need my heater though. I just started to think about this chiller stuff. Very scary. May be reason enough to drill my sump and run an external sump pump. External pumps seem so pricey. The plot thickens.

Thanks again. Great info.

[uncleof6]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14554192#post14554192 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Reefer2727
I pray I dont need a chiller. I am only running T5's but I am moving into a place that doesn't have air conditioning pretty soon. Summers here can get pretty warm. I can't get into the chiller stuff. I may not need my heater though. I just started to think about this chiller stuff. Very scary. May be reason enough to drill my sump and run an external sump pump. External pumps seem so pricey. The plot thickens.

Thanks again. Great info.

Hey, what size is your tank? The Dart is an external pump.....that is the big pump pictured above. :D average price $249. less than good iwakis, and more bang for the buck....

Jim

[Reefer2727]

Hi Jim,

MY tank is only a 75 gallon. Do you think an external pump would save me as far as temp goes? Are some submersible's known for running hotter than others?

[kgross]

If you want to minimize heat loss, use a good external pump. The dart is a lot bigger than you need for a 75 gallon tank. I would look at something like a GenX Mak3, Iwaki 30 or something about that size.

Kim

[Reefer2727]

Thanks Kim,

I really would prefer to run a submersible. Running an external means getting my sump tank drilled and way more $$ for the pump. I think I should be ok and if it came down to it hopefully fans would help

[uncleof6]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14556004#post14556004 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Reefer2727
Hi Jim,

MY tank is only a 75 gallon. Do you think an external pump would save me as far as temp goes? Are some submersible's known for running hotter than others?

Have to agree with kgross on this one. A magnetic drive external, will add more heat than a direct drive (with a space between the volute, and motor), but I think that would be splitting hairs as the direct drives are for the most part too big for your tank.

With 20 something years of data and information in this filing cabinet here, (to lazy to put it into a database) it would be too hard to go through and say yes x brand appears to run hotter than y brand. Nor could it positively be related to anything current. (design changes etc.)
A better approach would be to point to an indicator. All things being equal, the pump with the lower "wattage" will have a tendency to run cooler. This is related to the efficiency of the motor or power factor. I.E. how much energy is converted to "motion" and how much is lost as heat.

HTH,

Jim