Help with Return Please!

[zlwags85]

Hello - placing an order with Savko in the next day or so and need to make sure I have this return figured out.

There are 4 total returns with 1" bulkheads and I think it's 3/4" locline into the actual tank. I will be starting with an Iwaki 70 for a return pump for now which has a 1" outlet. What size piping should I use directly off the pump? Please see the picture below for more details. Also, would it be wiser to put a ball valve on all 4 returns or just the 2 like I have it before it splits? I believe ball valves reduce flow so I thought the 2 would be ok. Any help or thoughts appreciated!

To explain the picture a bit better:
the "T" fitting would be a 2" -> 1" on the other 2 sides.
The horizontal run would be approximately 6 feet.
Vertical run is about 5 ft to the actual outlets in the tank


Should it be 2" or 1.5" -> 1"? I will be using some spa flex tubing in this as well to make it a bit easier to plumb.

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f284/zlwags85/300g%20Tank/Return-1.jpg

Thanks much!

[james3370]

how about something like this??

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v501/james3370/tank/temp/manifold.jpg

from : http://www.flexpvc.com/cart/agora.cgi?product=PVC-Distributors

item # 672-4620 1.5 by 4(1 inch ports)

i would put a 1.5" union ball valve (http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=209665-34146-P200U-40&lpage=none) & 1.5" -> 1" reducer on the pump, then the above item, then 1" flex pvc (from the same site) & then 1" union ball valves (http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=209644-34146-P200U40&lpage=none) at each bulkhead. this would make servicing the pump or any leg of the returns much easier

i'd also take the 1.5 as high as possible before adding the 1 into 4 distributor. that should hold the flow much better having 1 large pipe as long as possible over 4 smaller pipes ran long distances

[uncleof6]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14685277#post14685277 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by zlwags85
Hello - placing an order with Savko in the next day or so and need to make sure I have this return figured out.

There are 4 total returns with 1" bulkheads and I think it's 3/4" locline into the actual tank. I will be starting with an Iwaki 70 for a return pump for now which has a 1" outlet. What size piping should I use directly off the pump? Please see the picture below for more details. Also, would it be wiser to put a ball valve on all 4 returns or just the 2 like I have it before it splits? I believe ball valves reduce flow so I thought the 2 would be ok. Any help or thoughts appreciated!

To explain the picture a bit better:
the "T" fitting would be a 2" -> 1" on the other 2 sides.
The horizontal run would be approximately 6 feet.
Vertical run is about 5 ft to the actual outlets in the tank


Should it be 2" or 1.5" -> 1"? I will be using some spa flex tubing in this as well to make it a bit easier to plumb.

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f284/zlwags85/300g%20Tank/Return-1.jpg

Thanks much!

Truthfully for other than possible maintenance, only one ball valve is needed on the pump output, and that is right at the output-- after a union, matching the ball valve and union for the intake. this is to facilitate removing the pump. by going with 1" split return lines, using 2" pipe at the outlet is a bit pointless, because the 1 " plumbing is going to stop up any possible gain by using the two inch. it is a good practice to up size the return line a notch or so, but I would not go above 1.5", and probably on a one inch outlet only go up to 1.25". Personally I would not downsize to 1" anywhere in the return system. Some pumps IIRC a Mag 9 something or other, requires a grossly oversized pipe diameter to get any flow out of it, any pump requiring that, I would not consider using. An iwaki is a good pump out of the box. stick with a reasonable pipe size. Effectively what you have designed is two 1" return lines from the outlet to the tank. nothing bad with that, but the 2" is a bit much. To keep the flow even with the two inch you would need 4 1" returns off the 2" t, with the 1.5 I believe it is three, with 1.25" two should be about right. So with your design, an 1.25" reducing tee, is as good as it is going to get. I like the way you have the tee positioned in the line, the pump will not see a restriction. This is good.

Regards,

Jim

[uncleof6]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14686400#post14686400 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by james3370
how about something like this??

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v501/james3370/tank/temp/manifold.jpg

from : http://www.flexpvc.com/cart/agora.cgi?product=PVC-Distributors

item # 672-4620 1.5 by 4(1 inch ports)

i would put a 1.5" union ball valve (http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=209665-34146-P200U-40&lpage=none) & 1.5" -> 1" reducer on the pump, then the above item, then 1" flex pvc (from the same site) & then 1" union ball valves (http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=209644-34146-P200U40&lpage=none) at each bulkhead. this would make servicing the pump or any leg of the returns much easier

i'd also take the 1.5 as high as possible before adding the 1 into 4 distributor. that should hold the flow much better having 1 large pipe as long as possible over 4 smaller pipes ran long distances

I am sittin here trying to talk him down to reasonable pipe size, fewer valves, etc. and you come along and turn it into an octopus closed loop contraption. :D

[james3370]

i was just suggesting what would be a good balance between minimal fittings & few as possible different pipe sizes, yet ease of serviceablity. :p .......that 1 distributor would replace 3 t-fittings & 4 reducers.

the union ball valves could be taken out, but depending on where the bulkheads are, w/out them would mean draining a good bit of the tank to work on them. i think that would be alot more trouble than plumbing them at the beginning

i tend to be more of a "prepare for the worse" than a "wish i had done....." type person

[uncleof6]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14686682#post14686682 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by james3370
i was just suggesting what would be a good balance between minimal fittings & few as possible different pipe sizes, yet ease of serviceablity. :p .......that 1 distributor would replace 3 t-fittings & 4 reducers.

the union ball valves could be taken out, but depending on where the bulkheads are, w/out them would mean draining a good bit of the tank to work on them. i think that would be alot more trouble than plumbing them at the beginning

i tend to be more of a "prepare for the worse" than a "wish i had done....." type person

Nothing wrong with the idea. Goes along with my 2" into 4-1" actually. I was typin same time you were. I like the idea of using bigger pumps in the return to take up some of the circulation needs. The bulkheads are going to have to be near the top of the waterline, otherwise a power failure will drain the tank down without needing service. Unless this is indeed a closed loop.

Here we go again, hijacking this persons thread......

Jim

[james3370]

yeah the 2" into 4-1" or that 1.5 to 4-1s is pretty much 6 in 1 hand, 1/2 dozen in the other....2 ways of doing the same thing. LOL

the power out issue is the reason i have decided to take all mine (closed loop & sump returns) over the top & use anti-siphon holes instead of bulkheads. it also means i need alot less unions & ball valves

[zlwags85]

Thanks for the advice and posts... you lost me on some of it.

To better explain the setup:

I have 2 drains (each 1.5") and 4 returns (each 1"). Each Drain will have a Stockman Standpipe and the each return will be plumbed up through the overflow box and to a locline style flow outlet. This is just a return from sump (no closed loop for now... don't want additional/bigger external pumps)

The reason I put the additional 2 ball valves is so that I could control how much flow each of the outputs gets. If I put 4 (one right before each bulkhead, I could shut off 1 in each overflow and get better flow through the other if I needed more powerful flow...

Thoughts?

Thanks again for any help/guidance!

-zach

[james3370]

i assume that the (4) 1" bulkheads are already there & in the bottom of the tank inside the overflow boxes??

no matter how many ball valves you put, be sure to put a union AFTER the ball valve (bulkhead>BV>union) to facilitate turning off the flow & removing the pipe if needed

the union ball valves i posted above from lowes are excellent since they have a union on both sides of the ball valve :D

[zlwags85]

Yes - the tank is pre-drilled. Original owner intended to achieve all the flow through these... I on the other hand don't want a closed loop and additional electrical costs.... will have two Koralia 8's.

I can't justify dual union ball valves... I don't see very many instances where I would need that and I would be replumbing some anyways... and 2 single union ball valves are about the same cost of a dual union... but that is getting into cost benefit and not the point :-)

I did a revised picture and took your ideas and combined them. If this tank wasn't so long and the runs were only a few feet max I would definately like the 4 way splitter you found there... but from all I have read, that would be adding additional head pressure to the pump and reduce effectiveness.

I'm also not sold on additional unions before the valves before the bulkheads. I understand that it would be a conservative approach and I would love myself for doing it IF I need to undo that plumbing, but they are also more costly and are another additional to head loss. But, if I only do the ball valves... you might get an email in a year that will be a "yea... you can say I told you so..."

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f284/zlwags85/300g%20Tank/revisedreturn.jpg

New thoughts or comments on this design? Getting better/worse? the pipe that would be from bulkhead to locline would be 1"... wouldn't be worth it to ramp up to 1.25 for the 1 ft distance right?

Sorry for long post. Thanks for any help or inputs.

-zach

[zlwags85]

I also realize I wouldn't need any of those 4 ball/union for the returns... but would it be nice to be able to shut 1 off in the "left" and 1 in the "right" return? That way I could dictate where the flow is really coming from?

If pictures of the actual tank/loclines would help... not a problem. I can get some pictures taken and up in no time. Just let me know.

-zach

[uncleof6]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14693341#post14693341 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by zlwags85
Yes - the tank is pre-drilled. Original owner intended to achieve all the flow through these... I on the other hand don't want a closed loop and additional electrical costs.... will have two Koralia 8's.

I can't justify dual union ball valves... I don't see very many instances where I would need that and I would be replumbing some anyways... and 2 single union ball valves are about the same cost of a dual union... but that is getting into cost benefit and not the point :-)

I did a revised picture and took your ideas and combined them. If this tank wasn't so long and the runs were only a few feet max I would definately like the 4 way splitter you found there... but from all I have read, that would be adding additional head pressure to the pump and reduce effectiveness.

I'm also not sold on additional unions before the valves before the bulkheads. I understand that it would be a conservative approach and I would love myself for doing it IF I need to undo that plumbing, but they are also more costly and are another additional to head loss. But, if I only do the ball valves... you might get an email in a year that will be a "yea... you can say I told you so..."

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f284/zlwags85/300g%20Tank/revisedreturn.jpg

New thoughts or comments on this design? Getting better/worse? the pipe that would be from bulkhead to locline would be 1"... wouldn't be worth it to ramp up to 1.25 for the 1 ft distance right?

Sorry for long post. Thanks for any help or inputs.

-zach

I do like this much better than your first design. You have kept your flow from the pump all the way to the tank at a maximum with your pipe sizes. I cannot say one bad thing about it. :D I have a suggestion however, with an explanation. You might consider (ooh nooo Mr Bill) and additional valve just up line from your tee. The flow is going to want to go straight up, and it will do that very well. A valve, if closed a bit, will send more water to the other set of 1"s for more balance between the two sides. No need to ramp up to 1.25, those 4-1"s will handle things fine. If you only had two I would say yes ramp it up. N0w if you can get Mr. Union's to agree:D, I think we can stop picking on you now. :D

Jim

[james3370]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14693865#post14693865 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by uncleof6
N0w if you can get Mr. Union's to agree:D, I think we can stop picking on you now. :D

Jim

i won't say anything else....except the "i told you so.." if/when it become necessary to service one of the lines in the future
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v501/james3370/smileys/doh.gif
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v501/james3370/smileys/hehe.gif
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v501/james3370/smileys/loco.gif

[uncleof6]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14694265#post14694265 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by james3370
i won't say anything else....except the "i told you so.." if/when it become necessary to service one of the lines in the future
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v501/james3370/smileys/doh.gif
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v501/james3370/smileys/hehe.gif
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v501/james3370/smileys/loco.gif

LOL, say it now, and save the "I told you so!":D

[james3370]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14694343#post14694343 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by uncleof6
LOL, say it now, and save the "I told you so!":D

where's the fun in that LOL

saw a shirt once that said.....

better to be silent & thought an idiot than open your mouth & remove all doubt


/thread hijack :rollface:

[zlwags85]

Alright - thanks much for the help! I think we have a pretty good base picture set up here and I can mod/tweak it a bit if needed.

Last question not dealing with this picture. Would you put a ball/union right after the drain bulkhead so that I could remove that if needed or should I just plumb it straight from bulkhead to sump? Obviously I would never restrict the drain line because that could be catastrophic.

[uncleof6]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14697153#post14697153 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by zlwags85
Alright - thanks much for the help! I think we have a pretty good base picture set up here and I can mod/tweak it a bit if needed.

Last question not dealing with this picture. Would you put a ball/union right after the drain bulkhead so that I could remove that if needed or should I just plumb it straight from bulkhead to sump? Obviously I would never restrict the drain line because that could be catastrophic.

Well, we didn't get into drain lines here, that is another can of worms. The better drain designs, have a tee with a screw cap on top. The cap is removable, so if you need to clean out the upper part of the line, you just pop the cap and clean it out. The better designs have a valve on just one of the lines, and unions on all the lines, just before the line dives under the tank into the sump. A union at the top of the line by the bulkhead would be handy if you happened to break the line.

Regards,

Jim