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ReefKeeperRob
04/06/2009, 03:51 PM
You guessed it - I'm having algae problems.

It's a 55 gallon tank with 20 gallon sump. Tank has been up for about 6 months now.

I don't feed excessively and I'm not heavily stocked.

Fish List:
2 black and white clown
1 Tomini Tang
1 black sailfin blenny
2 chromis

Right now my only source of filtration is an Octo Extreme 200. I'm also growing Chaeto but it's not growing that fast at all.

How do I get my system to ultra low nutrients.

More water changes?

Buy a device that takes the phosphate out of the water?

HighlandReefer
04/06/2009, 04:12 PM
What are your current phosphate and nitrate levels?

Aquarist007
04/06/2009, 05:10 PM
Here are some tips for fighting algae:

Capn's collection of shock and awe against algae

Most of the time algae is the symptom of the problem, not the problem itself.

Algae needs three things for the process of photosythesis to occur--carbon dioxide, light and food. If we could completely remove one of these elements it would not be able to survive.
Unfortunately in our reef tanks it is difficult to remove light and carbon dioxide completely but we can sereverly limit its food, mainly nitrates and phosphates.

If you have an algae problem then it should be approached in a way that limits the nitrates and phosphates in your water column

This is a combination of steps and practises rather then one magic bullet that will kill off all the algae in your tank.

Here is a list of practises that have been mentioned through a great number of posts that I have been proactive in and hopefully if they are together they might help

1. Feeding techniques----always feed less at one time but feed more often if the species of fish requires it. My fish always look hungry and so does my dog--they learn how to scam us humans very quickly.
Rinse off frozen prepared foods like brine shrimp and mysis shrimp. Quite often they contain phosphates and nitrates from die off in their holding tanks.

2. Flow rates and directions of flow can make a big difference
A rate that is quoted here quite often is that you should have between 20-40 times your tank volume in gph if your tank is mostly lps and even greater if mainly sps corals. There are still some expections with lps corals--you need to be on top of the husbandry requirements for each coral you have and place them accordingly.

Organic laden water slowly rises from the bottom of the tank to the top where it is skimmed off by various methods such as an overflow. Skimmed water is usually sent back to lower levels of the tank from the skimmer or sump via various ways such as loc lines.

In practical words this means that in the tank your flow should be directed to always enhance the above natural flow in the tank.
It should for a circle or semi circle and be pushed down, across the substrate up to the surface--across the surface--churning it up and towards the overflow

3.flow rates in the sump
The perfered answer for this question is between 5-10 times the total volume of your water column.
More importantly it should match the flow rate of your skimmer.
Otherwise unskimmed organic laden water is returned to the lower levels of the tank where it has to slowly make its way to the top like I desribed in the above flow senerio. This gives algae a second chance to have another lunch
This is also where flow rates and directions in the tank also help in this particular situation by getting the water back up to the top and out the overflow faster again.

Flow rates both in the sump and the tank are very important in the filtering process

4.Method of cleaning or tank maintenance
water changes---Randy has written in one of his articles that the ideal water change to remove nitrates is 30 per cent once of month
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-10/rhf/index.php
other reefers have stated that immediate or every two week 20 percent water changes will reduce phosphates and ammonia quickly.

cleaning the rockwork and substrate--once a week take a turkey baster and lightly baste the rock and substrate with it. this will get dissolved organics, phosphates and nitrates back into the water column where they can be filtered off instead of collecting and adding to the algae smorgasboard. Once again flow is very important in this also.

change your protein skimmer cup every other day

if running a filter sock change it everyother day---soak it in bleach and run it through a wash cycle with no soap. Let them dry in the air and the clorine will evaporate

5. tweaking equipment. Try not to run bioballs in filters. Replace them and all filter media with nothing!
The best use of a canister filter is to run straight carbon in it.

take skimmer pumps apart once a month and clean out the air venturis--make sure you have lots of air being combined to give a good foam column. This helps reduce organics but it also helps displace carbon dioxide with oxygen and keep your pH stable.

Once you have your levels of phosphates and nitrates in check then you may want to consider

1. running carbon and phospban in phosban reactors. the advantage to these is the water is forced through the entire media and can't take the easy way around the outside as when the media is put in a bag. Carbon can adsorb some phosphates and nitrates and the carbon is used by active bacteria in the tank

2. setting up a refugium with chaeto algae. You will need a good size refugium 20-30 gals and about 2-3 months of intensive cheato grow for it to make a noticeble difference on phosphates and nitrates. and the other advantage of a refugium is you get a larger and more variety of copopods, other inverts and good bacteria for the water column
There are many examples on this thread:
Refugiums the good bad and the ugly
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/s...hreadid=1349443

3. finding critters that eat algae. I leave this till the last because it is a problematic solution to algae. the critters don't always do what they are suppose to do. Putting some inverts in to eat a particular algae is great at the start but what do they feed on after they have eaten their specific food source.

4. another method that is cropping up alot more now is the use of magnesium. Magnesium should be at 1300ppm in a reef tank to support a level over 400ppm of calcium. some reefers have reported great success with cranking the level of magnesium to 1600 pppm for two weeks. the aglae dies off and none have reported any death to corals, inverts or fish.
This is discussed in detail on this thread:
A solution to Bryopsis
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showt...hreadid=1113109

Excellent threads on fighting alage

Phosphate starvation
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/s...hreadid=1383158

should I add a phosphate reactor
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showt...ghlight=phosban

how to remove phosphates
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showt...ghlight=phosban

ReefKeeperRob
04/06/2009, 06:20 PM
Phosphates have always been undetectable and Nitrates have always been between 0 - 5ppm. Obviously the algae is picking it up so fast that I can't detect it with my salifert tests. My tank is telling me that their is a lot of nutrients in the water.

edandsandy
04/06/2009, 06:23 PM
this is an EXCELLENT reply!

ReefKeeperRob
04/06/2009, 06:23 PM
I notice a lot of build up on the floor of the sump. How can I keep enough flow in the sump to keep everything in the water column so the skimmer can do its job?

What are your opinions on phosphate reactors. Is it worth getting one?

HighlandReefer
04/07/2009, 06:33 AM
As noted above, fighting algae type problems will involve a combination of practices to help control or possibly eradicate it.

The first step, IMHO, is to try to find out which group your pest belongs to. Algae, dinoflagellates & cyanobacteria may very well involve different control measures and are often confused with one another. A good quality photo may help in the ID of your pest to at least the major group it belongs to.

I found that using a GFO reactor was very beneficial, but using it is not without possible side effects. For example, if you reduce your phosphates too low and you have soft corals, it can harm your soft corals. GFO will not remove your nitrate. You should reduce your nitrate as well. I found that reducing my fish feeding to every 3 days helped dramatically with this and my fish seem happy. Another alternative would be to resort to vodka dosing to help lower both nitrate and phosphate. ;)

Good luck with your war against your pest, I have resorted to AlgaeFix Marine after exhausting all the other recommended control measures and am finally winning now. Both my nitrate and phosphate levels are very low currently (below the recommended guidlines). :)

Aquarist007
04/07/2009, 08:02 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14773557#post14773557 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ReefKeeperRob
I notice a lot of build up on the floor of the sump. How can I keep enough flow in the sump to keep everything in the water column so the skimmer can do its job?

What are your opinions on phosphate reactors. Is it worth getting one?

I would drain the sump and vacuum that stuff out and then run a micron filter sock as a pre filter.

Aquarist007
04/07/2009, 08:11 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14776544#post14776544 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by HighlandReefer
As noted above, fighting algae type problems will involve a combination of practices to help control or possibly eradicate it.

The first step, IMHO, is to try to find out which group your pest belongs to. Algae, dinoflagellates & cyanobacteria may very well involve different control measures and are often confused with one another. A good quality photo may help in the ID of your pest to at least the major group it belongs to.

I found that using a GFO reactor was very beneficial, but using it is not without possible side effects. For example, if you reduce your phosphates too low and you have soft corals, it can harm your soft corals. GFO will not remove your nitrate. You should reduce your nitrate as well. I found that reducing my fish feeding to every 3 days helped dramatically with this and my fish seem happy. Another alternative would be to resort to vodka dosing to help lower both nitrate and phosphate. ;)

Good luck with your war against your pest, I have resorted to AlgaeFix Marine after exhausting all the other recommended control measures and am finally winning now. Both my nitrate and phosphate levels are very low currently (below the recommended guidlines). :)

This is a good post and I am not disagreeing with it at all.
Just to add however, I am a firm believer in exhausting all other methods available before using a chemical to dose with.

I am also a believer in refugiums with macro algae for phosphate reduction and deep sand beds(run remotely) for nitrate reduction.

Since one of the factors for the rate of growth of cheato macro algae is the amount of available phosphates and nitrates in the system IMO one can infer that a more natural balance between the phosphate needs of lps corals ect and the phosphate available for uptake by chaeto might be more effectively obtainable.

I ran a phosban reactor for 24/7 until I had a good amount of chaeto build up. At that point I stopped running the reactor and have not done so for about a year.

Aquarist007
04/07/2009, 08:14 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14773554#post14773554 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by edandsandy
this is an EXCELLENT reply!

thanks --its on my blog --which nobody seems to access so I copy it into the appropriate posts now;)

http://www.reefcentral.com/wp/?p=346

HighlandReefer
04/07/2009, 08:19 AM
Thanks for clarifying my post Captain. ;)

For more reading on what I was referring to as the "recommend measures" see these articles written by Randy:

Phosphate and the Reef Aquarium
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-09/rhf/index.php

Nitrate in the Reef Aquarium
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issu...t2003/chem.htm

Problem Dinoflagellates and pH
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-11/rhf/index.php

The Complete Nitrogen Cycle
http://web.archive.org/web/200305101...&RecordNo=3090

Protein Skimming: How It Works
http://web.archive.org/web/200103090...skimmers2.html

Phosphorus: Algae's Best Friend
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issu...t2002/chem.htm

Aquarist007
04/07/2009, 08:26 AM
Thanks for that list Cliff
I just updated my blog with them--and of course giving you credit for compiling :)

http://www.reefcentral.com/wp/?p=287

HighlandReefer
04/07/2009, 08:32 AM
I do not deserve any credit for compiling lists. They are listed at the top of the Chemistry forum threads:

* Reef Chemistry Articles:
http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=102605

Randy deserves the credit for writting most of the articles and I believe Bertoni is responsible for compiling this list. ;)

Aquarist007
04/07/2009, 08:41 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14777061#post14777061 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by HighlandReefer
I do not deserve any credit for compiling lists. They are listed at the top of the Chemistry forum threads:

http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=102605

Randy deserves the credit for writting most of the articles and I believe Bertoni is responsible for compiling this list. ;)

No doubt Randy and Bertoni are superstar reefers on RC and rewarding personally to work with.

I disagree with you---you took the time to go through the plethora of articles ;) and compile a small list of suitable ones for this particular post
you deserve credit for that:smokin:

HighlandReefer
04/07/2009, 08:48 AM
Thank you. :D

Captain, you deserve credit for compiling a list of very helpful threads to fight algae type problems as well. :thumbsup:

Unfortunately, algae type problems are responsible for many hobbyists leaving the realm of Reef Keeping. :(

ReefKeeperRob
04/08/2009, 11:59 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14777157#post14777157 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by HighlandReefer
Thank you. :D

Captain, you deserve credit for compiling a list of very helpful threads to fight algae type problems as well. :thumbsup:

Unfortunately, algae type problems are responsible for many hobbyists leaving the realm of Reef Keeping. :(

It's going to drive me out if I can't get a grasp on it. It's definately out competing my Chaeto. My Chaeto has been alive for about a month but it doesn't seem to be growing much or at all. Every day I look in my tank I see 10 new sprouts of algae.

ReefKeeperRob
04/09/2009, 12:22 AM
Ok I just read through some articles about iron dosing. Very interesting. I remember reading about it somewhere else before but not to that detail.

I will dose iron and see if that will help my Cheato out compete my other nuisance algae.

Where are my possible sources for iron?

edit:

another thing - I'm using a 6500k flourescent flood light from the local hardware store. I could have got the 5500k but decided to try the 6500. Any thoughts about that?

HighlandReefer
04/09/2009, 05:51 AM
I have used Randy's Do-It-Yourself Iron Mix with an increase in growth noted with my Chaeto.

I am not sure on the mix directions. It has been a while since I used it. You can purchase Fergon Iron Tablets at your local drugstore and mix it at the proper ratio with RODI water. ;)

IMHO, 6500 K bulbs are fine.