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View Full Version : Kevin, can you clarify for us dummies please


agreeive?fish
04/08/2009, 09:54 AM
Kevin, some of us dummies cannot figure out the exact method of sexing scribbled angels and at what size the scribble starts showing thier diffrences between males and females..and while we are on the subject of sexing large angels could you also give som information of the size range that personifer angels satrt to show the diffrences between males and females..

Thank you
Dennis aka scribbled dummy #1

michael_cb_125
04/08/2009, 10:01 AM
Michael (scribbled dummy #2)

~Michael

dustinP
04/08/2009, 01:15 PM
ill throw my name into the hat

dustin (scribbled dummy #3)

DFS
04/08/2009, 09:02 PM
Greetings,
I want to apologize to all of you for the delay. It took some time to round up some images to post in this thread for some examples to show so I can try and explain the differences between male and female Australian Scribbled Angelfish- Chaetodontoplus duboulayi.

These incredible fish grow to just over 10.5" in length, and are normally found in shallow water (20 meters or less) on coral covered or rocky rubble habitats. The range of these fish is somewhat narrow, and they can be found in tropical water around the coasts of northern Australia, from northwest Western Australia, east to Queensland, up to the southern parts of Indonesia, as well as southern New Guinea.

In my opinion these fish are both sexually dimorphic and sexually dichromatic, as mature Males can be distinguished from Females by their coloration and a few key features. This species appear to mature when they reach 5-6" in length, as some of the male characteristics start to become visible.

Female Chaetodontoplus duboulayi:
These fish are normally very dark blue to purple coloration with a pale yellow and blue/purple peppered spotting pattern on the sides of the fish that run through the caudal peduncle (base of the tail). The caudal (tail) fin is more rounded and is solid yellow in coloration with clear margins at the edge.

Male Chaetodontoplus duboulayi:
Mature males are normally vivid blue, with fine horizontal stripes running down the length of the body. The caudal peduncle (base of the tail) is yellow with fine dark blue and orange spots. The caudal fin is bright yellow with fine orange spots, with the upper and lower lobes being pointed.

Below are some examples of Male and Female Scribbled Angelfish:

Young Female:
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/8114Female_Chaetodontoplus_duboulayi_2.JPG
Young Male:
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/8114Male_Chaetodontoplus_duboulayi.JPG
Mature Female:
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/8114Female_Chaetodontoplus_duboulayi_3.JPG
Mature Male:
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/8114Large_Male_Chaetodontoplus_duboulayi.jpg

Happy Fishkeeping!

michael_cb_125
04/09/2009, 05:24 AM
Thanks for the clarification Kevin. THat helps alot.

By the way received my Scribbled from the DD yesterday. What an amazing fish. It is the fish pictured last in your post, and is even more beautiful in person!

~Michael

agreeive?fish
04/09/2009, 07:50 AM
Kevin,

Thank you so much, that clears things up for me..

Thanks
Dennis

Matt_Wandell
04/13/2009, 01:25 AM
Kevin, I notice 2 other features in these photos, but maybe it's just coincidence:

1) The white area behind the eye looks restricted to the operculum at its lowest edge on the females. In males, it is larger and extends down to the end of the preopercular spine.

2) The yellow area above the lateral line that runs from the base of the caudal peduncle to the top of the head--in males it looks like it connects with the yellow area of the head, while in females it is separated.

Are these reliable indicators too?

DFS
04/13/2009, 01:30 PM
Matt,

Hope all is well in San Fran and things are good at the Steinhart Aquarium!

When looking at fully mature males, I would say you are right on the mark with your observations. It is important to take into consideration that with maturing juveniles, and very young adults that there is a considerable amount of variation in the coloration and markings of these spectacular fish which can oftentimes make sexing them very challenging.

To complicate matters worse, there is also regional variation among these fishes as they are collected along the entire mid to northern coasts of the Australian continent from west to east.

Cheers!

Matt_Wandell
04/16/2009, 12:18 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14817558#post14817558 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by DFS
Matt,

Hope all is well in San Fran and things are good at the Steinhart Aquarium!

When looking at fully mature males, I would say you are right on the mark with your observations. It is important to take into consideration that with maturing juveniles, and very young adults that there is a considerable amount of variation in the coloration and markings of these spectacular fish which can oftentimes make sexing them very challenging.

To complicate matters worse, there is also regional variation among these fishes as they are collected along the entire mid to northern coasts of the Australian continent from west to east.

Cheers!

Thanks Kevin! I hope all is well in WI as well and look forward to the day when I can get an all expenses paid trip to visit your facility and look at all these incredible fish firsthand!

Things are great here, in fact my partner in crime Rich Ross should be contacting you about something special soon... ;) :D

eddybabyhd
06/03/2009, 04:27 PM
I know this is going to sound redundant. How do these fish do in mixed reefs?

I have read the general rule with angels is buy them small

dfs/la2
06/03/2009, 05:14 PM
eddybabyhd,

Thank you for your post. In Scott W. Michael’s book, Angelfishes and Butterflyfishes (page 211-212), he writes that although small Angelfish will normally be okay in most reef setups, they can be extremely destructive in a reef setting as they grow larger in size. Due to this, adding a younger Angelfish to the reef tank can be a risky endeavor. We agree and feel that the addition of any Angelfish to a reef tank may be damaging to the corals. If you have any further questions, please feel free to let us know.

Mike S.
LiveAquaria (http://www.liveaquaria.com)
Drs. Foster and Smith (http://www.drsfostersmith.com)

eddybabyhd
06/03/2009, 10:06 PM
Gender?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v449/eb6713/fish1418.jpg

reefing102
06/04/2009, 11:08 AM
I'm guessing it is a male, but not sure

AuroraDrvr
06/04/2009, 12:54 PM
Female.

DFS
06/04/2009, 02:30 PM
eddybabyhd,

Based on the shape of the caudal fin, coloration and markings I would also venture to say that your fish is a female.

If you could provide the size of the fish from nose to the end of the caudal, and a full side shot of the fish it would help out considerably.

Cheers!