Halides vs. T5's

[fender4string]

I'm a FOWLR guy so I haven't spent a lot of time looking at lights. I'll be getting into coral eventually (i.e. once I have money :) ) and was wondering which lighting system is better: halides or T5s?

By "better," I guess I mean most beneficial to corals.

[aquaman67]

Either will work.

Halides are a stronger single point source light. You'll get "shimmer" lines. They are also hotter, so you may need a chiller. Unless you're going to have all SPS then you don't "need" halides.

T-5's you can get better color combos IMO. The bulbs last longer and don't shift color as fast.

It's really what you like. I went from Power Compact, to Metal Halide to T-5s.

[fender4string]

So neither bulb really has the advantage over the other? I was told by someone at an LFS that the shimmer effect of halides was more beneficial to coral growth as each shimmer offered a "punch" of high intensity light-truth or crap?

I had noticed that T5s tend to give better color so I was leaning toward those because of that. I do like the shimmer though :).

[Tony Romano]

How deep is your tank? MH will be better for deeper tamks.

[fender4string]

Well, assuming I convert my current tank into a reef once I upgrade, it's 22 inches deep (48X18X22).

Why are halides better for deeper tanks?

[spscrackhead]

with t5 you can get a mix of colors. you can have your 65k your 20k your 10k you get the picture. t5 are cooler and you wont have to worry about heat. but imo mh are stronger. that shimmer is better is total crap. throw that thought out the window. mh are better for depth bc they can penetrate the water deeper. simple. if heat is an issue go with t5, if not go with mh.

[stevedola]

this is like asking whats a better sandwich ham or turkey...theres no real answer. best bet is to go look at each set up and see what you like better. check out a few nice highend local fish stores and get an idea for your taste because both will do the job and the corals will thrive under either lighting senerios.

[Tony Romano]

T5 can also be used with dimmers.

[GSMguy]

Actually t5s not penetrating is a myth the penetrate just as well as MH just without the hot spot..

[fender4string]

Thanks for all the responses guys.

spscrackhead-I kinda figured the "shimmer power" was BS. That LFS hasn't been the best source of information so when given advice mostly I smile, nod, and run home to check on RC :D.

Based on the little I had heard about both and the advice you guys gave (i.e. can't go wrong) I'll probably start looking into T5 fixtures. Shimmer is sweet but the color that I've seen on tanks with T5s are sick.

I'm actually thinking about going T5 on my current 85 gal FOWLR setup just for the sake of it being brighter and better colored. I'm just running some power compacts (160 W total) and it's not cutting it :).

Again I appreciate the input

[Tony Romano]

GSM - I have 54Watt T5 and 250 Watt MH. 5x more watt does not = more depth? 5 T5s would work like one MH? Is there something published you can point me towards? I am interested in proving to myself your statement is correct. I have deep tanks and thought I was stuck with MH.

My wife likes shimmer...so I maybe!

[zachtos]

Don't spread rumors that T5 can't keep SPS, I do so w/ success as do many many others. Several TOTM have shown that too.

T5 is cheaper for a fish only tank and will work fine.

[adambirk]

i belive that it is all personal preference i myself love the look of mh and will probably never go away from them now my friend has all t5s and has a very nice reef as well keeping some sps. i think that there is more to it than just t5 or mh. alot comes into play when talking about par values and how deep lights will penitrait. most important is water clarity. also what type of reflectors......... so like stated above go and look at tanks with mh and tanks with t5s and buy the fixture that you like the most.

[tkeracer619]

I run 4x Radium 20k 250w Halides, 4x 54w Blue+ T5s, and 2 160w URI Super Actinic 03 VHOs over my tank.... so my answer is all of the above.

I love the shimmer and the brightness of the halides, I love the color a T5 blue plus bulb puts out, and I love the actinic a good old VHO puts out. The combo is excellent and I think I have now found my bulb combo after 3 years of mix and matching.

[redfishsc]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14868905#post14868905 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by fender4string


spscrackhead-I kinda figured the "shimmer power" was BS. That LFS hasn't been the best source of information so when given advice mostly I smile, nod, and run home to check on RC :D.



That's proof that you're THINKING!

There are very, very, very (^1,000) few times that I trust what the LFS says.

There is ONE LFS in my county I trust. ONE. They have a very nice "Fish Room" (some folks in my area will know what I am saying).




Now that being said, I prefer the LOOK of metal halides, but the ECONOMY of T5.


Halides give a powerful point-source of light which gives the shimmers. T5's give a much more even lighting that actually (to my eyes) appears much brighter than MH since it's spread out more evenly.

Halides run a lot hotter, which can lead to temp headaches. T5's on a tank your size probably won't cause any heat issues. On my tanks, the T5's raise the temp by 2-3 F.

Halides tend to shift spectrum quicker than T5's and most folks seem to replace them every 8-9 months. Higher quality T5's can go a year (some say longer) before needing to be replaced.


Halides give you a few color options, T5's give you nearly limitless color options. You can change the whole look of your tank by replacing one or two $20 bulbs rather than all of your $80 Halide bulbs.



I run only T5, but then again look at my tanks, a 10 and a 20.



It really will boil down to personal preferences. Go and visit other reefers, visit the LFS, and look at their tanks and see what you like.

[Tony Romano]

Yep - everything changes PAR - I have to watch my GAC or I shock my sps.

[Mr_Harry]

I like the looks of MH, But Love the Dimming of T5

I may go to a combo someday but for now I'm Dimmable T5

[fender4string]

A combo was something I had considered. I wasn't really sure that this was an option as I've really only seen (or at least to my knowledge have only seen) Halides with actinic supplementation.

tkeracer619-do you have any pictures of how you set up your lights or maybe a link to a thread in which you previously posted pictures? I'd like to see how you did that.

Also I've always heard that halides are a "point source" of lighting. I understand the concept but what benefit (if any) does that have on light output/power/intensity?

[Tony Romano]

How do you control dimming Harry?

Fender - That combo is old school...newer MH are plenty blue with out help. This frees up space for whatever we want. When I started we had 175W 6500k with 03 PCs...old way to do clams and sps.

I have 10k 50/50 WT/BL T5s I run off of Proflix. True 0 to 100% sun rise, then MH kicks in.

The thing we noticed is the additional T5 lighting in very front of tank made entire tank look more 3d - I think there is now white light into lower rock than old 03/07 PC lighting.

[fender4string]

I understood the gist of that :).......

The technical stuff is still over my head lol

[Tony Romano]

Not really technical, all i am saying is new MH bulbs are good "blue"without Pure Actinic (420) accent lighting to counteract the yellowness. The lower the K the more yellow. The T5s bring in very high output, small size, long life and dimmable. In many ways a perfect aquarium light. Before T5s, power compact was the more popular, VHO before that. Apparently VHO is great light, many hard core people still use them.

Point source lighting (gas) = Very high output vs input from small size.

[fender4string]

It was the listing of bulbs that confused me-I'm not sure what the names means. That's what I meant by technical I guess.

The last post I get :)! I'm a huge equipment noob so the more broken down the explanation the better.

[kc350twin]

T5 question.

What is the reason for dimming? To sim dusk and dawn?



Thanks
Kc3

[Tony Romano]

yes

[kc350twin]

What controls the Dusk and Dawn features?

[jbird69]

I am running a 400w radium mh bulb on my 50g, I also have two 39w t6 that I run for some added color and dwan/dusk. With all that wattage burning inside a wood canopy, my temp swings less than one degree day to night. All I have is one 3" computer fan blowing across the water of the dt, and one blowing on my ballast underneath. (interesting, I was getting a 2 degree swing before I added the ballast fan) And even if you do get temp swings, many say that it is actually good for the health of your corals.
Also, I remember reading somewhere that the shimmer lines actually do have a huge spike in par. He actually tested this with a par meter and was registering spikes in par on shimmer lines. And also commented that sps responded with excellerated growth when a lot of shimmer was present in the tank. He monitered the tank with the flow directed so the surface was lightly agitated, and again with the flow directed so the surface was fiercly agitated. He did both for several months and noticed the sps responded with faster growth to the latter. Now maybe it had to do with greater gas exchange and different flow orientation, but with the results of the par test and the surface agitation test, I'm inclined to believe that shimmer lines do have benefits to coral health/growth.
I think you can really get the colors out of your corals more readily with t5s just cause you can introduce the color spectrum that certain corals respond to. Once you have found all the colors that pop all your different corals and use them in combination, your whole tank will really POP. I think metal halide gives a much more natural, sunlight appearance...more of a shallow reef look. whereas T5s look more deep water...

[mightyevil]

Cool thread, I am in the process of buying a retro fit kit and I wanted to go with Halides but after reading this thread I really dont know.

So T5s are the best way to go as far as bringing out the color of corals? Cause I want super bright colors.

Which are cheaper to buy and cheaper to maintain, what is best for the long run?

I will be lighting a 180 gallon tank 72"x24"x24" what will be best if I want to keep all kinds of animals, I plan on keeping my tank very simple (not heavely stocked).

Obviously I am a saltwater virgin. Help will be appreciated.

[ngn8dogg]

I had pc then went to MH and when I downgraded due to heat issues I went to t-5s and cant say enough about them. I absolutely love the colors of my corals with them. Are you going to get better growth with halides over t-5s, No . Shimmer is nice , but I would rather have better color over shimmer anyday.

[ngn8dogg]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14879972#post14879972 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jbird69
I am running a 400w radium mh bulb on my 50g, I also have two 39w t6 that I run for some added color and dwan/dusk. With all that wattage burning inside a wood canopy, my temp swings less than one degree day to night. All I have is one 3" computer fan blowing across the water of the dt, and one blowing on my ballast underneath. (interesting, I was getting a 2 degree swing before I added the ballast fan) And even if you do get temp swings, many say that it is actually good for the health of your corals.
Also, I remember reading somewhere that the shimmer lines actually do have a huge spike in par. He actually tested this with a par meter and was registering spikes in par on shimmer lines. And also commented that sps responded with excellerated growth when a lot of shimmer was present in the tank. He monitered the tank with the flow directed so the surface was lightly agitated, and again with the flow directed so the surface was fiercly agitated. He did both for several months and noticed the sps responded with faster growth to the latter. Now maybe it had to do with greater gas exchange and different flow orientation, but with the results of the par test and the surface agitation test, I'm inclined to believe that shimmer lines do have benefits to coral health/growth.
I think you can really get the colors out of your corals more readily with t5s just cause you can introduce the color spectrum that certain corals respond to. Once you have found all the colors that pop all your different corals and use them in combination, your whole tank will really POP. I think metal halide gives a much more natural, sunlight appearance...more of a shallow reef look. whereas T5s look more deep water...

Interesting. I would like to see this research you are talking about. its hard to say one tank will grow differently just because of light. Alot has to do with the growth of corals and NO 2 tanks are ever the same. I have better growth with my t-5s on my 25 then my 250w halides on my old 90. Can I say t-5s will grow my corals faster? NO. Every tank is different

[mightyevil]

Okay so looks like T5s it is but how do I know what I need? which are the best but most affordable bulbs?

[jh2pizza]

Here is some interesting reading posted.
http:// archiv .korallenriff.de/ Lichttest/T5- 1.pdf

[Tony Romano]

Profilux Controller - Very nice German made.

Google Cherry Corals.

http://archiv.korallenriff.de/Lichttest/T5-1.pdf

[fender4string]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14879972#post14879972 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jbird69
I am running a 400w radium mh bulb on my 50g, I also have two 39w t6 that I run for some added color and dwan/dusk. With all that wattage burning inside a wood canopy, my temp swings less than one degree day to night. All I have is one 3" computer fan blowing across the water of the dt, and one blowing on my ballast underneath. (interesting, I was getting a 2 degree swing before I added the ballast fan) And even if you do get temp swings, many say that it is actually good for the health of your corals.
Also, I remember reading somewhere that the shimmer lines actually do have a huge spike in par. He actually tested this with a par meter and was registering spikes in par on shimmer lines. And also commented that sps responded with excellerated growth when a lot of shimmer was present in the tank. He monitered the tank with the flow directed so the surface was lightly agitated, and again with the flow directed so the surface was fiercly agitated. He did both for several months and noticed the sps responded with faster growth to the latter. Now maybe it had to do with greater gas exchange and different flow orientation, but with the results of the par test and the surface agitation test, I'm inclined to believe that shimmer lines do have benefits to coral health/growth.
I think you can really get the colors out of your corals more readily with t5s just cause you can introduce the color spectrum that certain corals respond to. Once you have found all the colors that pop all your different corals and use them in combination, your whole tank will really POP. I think metal halide gives a much more natural, sunlight appearance...more of a shallow reef look. whereas T5s look more deep water...

Very informative. I really appreciate the in depth response.

I'm glad I started this thread-It's been very helpful.

[Tony Romano]

The tank from the URL that pizza posted convinced me, T5s will work on big tanks.

So many toys, so little money! (unemployed)
So many toys, so little time! (employed)

http://www.rimlessreef.com/rimless-reef.html

Look at this guy...

[jbird69]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14880647#post14880647 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ngn8dogg
Interesting. I would like to see this research you are talking about. its hard to say one tank will grow differently just because of light. Alot has to do with the growth of corals and NO 2 tanks are ever the same. I have better growth with my t-5s on my 25 then my 250w halides on my old 90. Can I say t-5s will grow my corals faster? NO. Every tank is different

I honestly cant remember where I read this article. Maybe online or a magazine or a book. Ive read so much about reef tanks its kind of a mixed potpouri of info swimming in my head.
I do remember this article tho as I thought it was really interesting. There wasnt a lot of science referenced in his research, just experimentation and observation.
Corals do respond well to random flow and its possible that shimmer lines would qualify as "random light". Just a thought....

[zachtos]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14880776#post14880776 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mightyevil
Okay so looks like T5s it is but how do I know what I need? which are the best but most affordable bulbs?

there is a huge thread in the lighting forums on this started by grimreefer w/ par readings. you will find the ati blue plus to be the most popular bulb by far. I also have a PAR meter and pure T5 lighting. I find most bulbs to be pretty close in PAR that grim reefer will suggest, so it's mostly about your color preference from there. (ati blu plus and ati blu special in a 2:1 ratio is my fave)

[RichConley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14865521#post14865521 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by aquaman67
Either will work.

Halides are ...They are also hotter, so you may need a chiller..

To the touch, yes. To the tank? Absolutely not. Needing a chiller has a lot more to do with hood design than light technology.

[drparker]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14883840#post14883840 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RichConley
To the touch, yes. To the tank? Absolutely not. Needing a chiller has a lot more to do with hood design than light technology.

I agree! What people don't seem to mention is that with a single MH bulb you've got 400 watts in 3 linear inches, With 8 T5 bulbs you've spread 432 watts over 384 linear inches.

[Tony Romano]

I have MH and ditched chiller, just opened the hood a bit and a fan. The chiller was actually raising tempature due to being inside the house.

[tkeracer619]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14875469#post14875469 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by fender4string
tkeracer619-do you have any pictures of how you set up your lights or maybe a link to a thread in which you previously posted pictures? I'd like to see how you did that.



You should be able to get a good idea from this super old picture. I have a build log but it is very dated simply due to being at a race and taking a rock to the lens of my camera... haven't purchased a new one yet.

This is with reeflux 10k on the outside, ebay 14k in the middle. Blue+ T5 and Super Actinic VHO. With the radium halides the coloration is right in the middle of the two shown in this pic.

http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/6369/73cl6.jpg

[Tony Romano]

Nice

[mightyevil]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14883813#post14883813 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by zachtos
there is a huge thread in the lighting forums on this started by grimreefer w/ par readings. you will find the ati blue plus to be the most popular bulb by far. I also have a PAR meter and pure T5 lighting. I find most bulbs to be pretty close in PAR that grim reefer will suggest, so it's mostly about your color preference from there. (ati blu plus and ati blu special in a 2:1 ratio is my fave)

I have read about the ATI fixture but I cant find a dealer except outside the US and call me naive but I dont trust it.

Thanks for the info on that thread I will check it out as soon as I can.

[James77]

Reefgeek.com is an ATI dealer, right in California :). Aquariumspecialty is another US dealer- both are excellent companies.

[slathrum]

If you have the option to go without a hood, MH with Lumenarc reflectors suspended or on a light rack look awesome and the heat issues aren't as bad. If I didn't have cats that would try to jump up there, I'd do it myself. I was using 7 54 watt T5's retro'd into a canopy over my 135 (72 x 18 x 25). Basically more than enough for LPS and softies and I had a couple SPS frags growing well too. If heat wasn't so much an issue, I'd definitely go for MH. Anyone that doesn't think T5's are cooler is mistaken. Maybe the heat is spread out of the length of the bulb, but the simple fact is that the bulb overall does not produce as much heat. Also, I wouldn't try dimming your T5's unless you know that you have a dimming ballast, which most are not. Dimmable ballasts are quite expensive and not very common.

[Mr_Harry]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14875684#post14875684 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Tony Romano
How do you control dimming Harry?



I have "Sylvania Quicktronic QT2x54/120 PHO-DIM"
Dimmable ballast that are controlled with an ReefKeeper Elite

They dim Two 54watt T5 bulbs

[James77]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14885406#post14885406 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by slathrum
Anyone that doesn't think T5's are cooler is mistaken. Maybe the heat is spread out of the length of the bulb, but the simple fact is that the bulb overall does not produce as much heat.

Watt for watt, T5s produce the same amount of heat as MHs. If there were a 100 watt T5, it would produce as much heat as a 100 watt halide.

That said, you need less watts of T5s over a typical tank, and they require cooling to perform optimally. Because of that, little heat is imparted to the tank. My ATI PM would cool the bulbs and blow the hot air completely away from the tank- almost no heat was imparted.

Comparing that to MHs in an improperly vented hood would not be a fair comparison. Properly cooled/vented halides do not cause the heat problems that many people speak of(ie -that a chiller is an absolute MUST).

[zachtos]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14884660#post14884660 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mightyevil
I have read about the ATI fixture but I cant find a dealer except outside the US and call me naive but I dont trust it.

Thanks for the info on that thread I will check it out as soon as I can.

I was talking about the ATI brand of light bulbs, I use icecap ballasts because they overdrive the bulb and make them equal to 250W metal halides.

[mightyevil]

)<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14885594#post14885594 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by zachtos
I was talking about the ATI brand of light bulbs, I use icecap ballasts because they overdrive the bulb and make them equal to 250W metal halides.

I see what you mean now...

Well I dont know, I guess I will have to research a lot more now because the more I try to get help the more confusing it gets, I mean everyone has great opinions on T5s as well as Halides.

The thing is that T5s seem the cheaper way to go and it seems that they perform as well as Halides...the plus with spending a little more money is the shimmer effect which is awasome and completely worth the extra cash for some, I just dont know what where I fall in just yet...Will I sacrifice myself for shimmer or will I satisfy for T5s and put the extra cash into good use (:D live sand or live rock or skimmer etc...:D)

[mightyevil]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14885267#post14885267 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by James77
Reefgeek.com is an ATI dealer, right in California :). Aquariumspecialty is another US dealer- both are excellent companies.

Thanks for this info James I appreciate it!:)

[james3370]

as far as "shimmer" goes, my biocube 8 w/ power compacts has a bit of shimmer to it because of the surface aggitation generated from the hydor flo deflector i have on the return

my new build, i am doing 15w of leds for shimmer supplementation coupled w/ the hydor flo deflector on the return & the multiple loc-lines on the over the top closed loop return to keep the water surface aggitated

all told, my diy moonlights & t5 shimmer supplementation bar cost about $75-100 & will last for about 5-10yrs

me personally, i'd only do halides on a tank that was longer than 60" cause then you run into having to do multiples of shorter t5s which can make it cost prohibitive

[Tony Romano]

How does one make a T5 shimmer bar?

[james3370]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14890476#post14890476 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Tony Romano
How does one make a T5 shimmer bar?

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1587273

my build thread post (w/ short vid clip): :D
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=14884253#post14884253

[Tony Romano]

I don't get the shimmer - very bright LEDs at different points?

How is dimming controlled? Looks like very nifty stuff BTW.

My controller has all sorts of nifty things for dimming, moon phase, storms etc.

[james3370]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14891217#post14891217 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Tony Romano
I don't get the shimmer - very bright LEDs at different points?

How is dimming controlled? Looks like very nifty stuff BTW.

My controller has all sorts of nifty things for dimming, moon phase, storms etc.

the shimmer will come from the surface aqqitation & the single point light sources of the LEDs. my biocube 8 has the hydor on the return & the waves it creates gives a shimmer effect

the dimming on mine is only on the blues. they are powered thru a dimmable buckpuck that has an external pot. since they were just moonlights, i went dimmable to turn them down so as for them to not be so bright. they will be a "set it & forget it" thing

i might incorporate the leds into my surise/sunset timing....haven't decided yet. mainly i did the whole thing for the moonlights, but figured since it was such a relatively inexpensive & easy project, i might as well add the whites to hopefully get the desired shimmer effect while i was doing it

[Tony Romano]

Interesting stuff - I love gizmos!

[james3370]

parts list for mine:

* (1 lot) of (5) 1 watt blue LEDs (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=360099816612) for moonlights - about $15 shipped
* (1 lot) of (5) 3 watt white LEDs (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=360148437186) for shimmer - about $17 shipped
* (2) 20 volt / 1 amp wall warts (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220378052899) to power each string - about $16 shipped
* (1) 350mA Dimable Buckpuck (http://www.ledsupply.com/03023-d-e-350p.php) for the blue LEDs - $19.99 + shipping
* (1) 500mA Standard Buckpuck (http://www.ledsupply.com/03023-d-n-500.php) for the white LEDs - $14.99 + shipping
* (1) project box (http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062281) to hold wiring & buckpucks - $4
* (2) female power plugs (http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2102491) for the power supplies to plug into - $3.50/each

for the heatsink to mount the LEDs to, i used some aluminum stock i picked up from lowes. it was 3/4" wide "u-channel" that was 3ft long. it was about $10. i also used 6-32 screws & nuts & small nylon washers to mount the LEDs to the aluminum bar that i also picked up at lowes

[reefdude135]

Originally posted by james3370

me personally, i'd only do halides on a tank that was longer than 60" cause then you run into having to do multiples of shorter t5s which can make it cost prohibitive

That's the same issue I have James.... a 6' tank means 6x80 T5 at a minimum. I could achieve the same with 3x175 MH placed, 6" above the water....

P.S. (480w of T5 vs. 525 halide... not much savings there).

[reefdude135]

<Originally posted by redfishsc

...Halides run a lot hotter, which can lead to temp headaches. T5's on a tank your size probably won't cause any heat issues. On my tanks, the T5's raise the temp by 2-3 F.

RedFish, are you saying that T5 ran hotter for you than MH?

[Tony Romano]

I still can't get past the 250 Watt pumching straight down vs 54 watt.

However i do believe we are discussing which very good way to use. If i were starting over I suspect I would do T5s.

[slathrum]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14885569#post14885569 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by James77
Watt for watt, T5s produce the same amount of heat as MHs. If there were a 100 watt T5, it would produce as much heat as a 100 watt halide.

That said, you need less watts of T5s over a typical tank, and they require cooling to perform optimally. Because of that, little heat is imparted to the tank. My ATI PM would cool the bulbs and blow the hot air completely away from the tank- almost no heat was imparted.

Comparing that to MHs in an improperly vented hood would not be a fair comparison. Properly cooled/vented halides do not cause the heat problems that many people speak of(ie -that a chiller is an absolute MUST).

Sorry, a watt is never equal to a watt when efficiency is involved. There is no fair comparison between two completely different technologies. Heat is a byproduct of the way the electricity is used. Take your standard aquarium heater. You can see the elements glow when they heat up, yet it does not produce nearly as much light as its equivalent wattage T5 or MH. Fans or not, because of it's design a MH watt for watt will produce more heat.

[James77]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14894969#post14894969 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by slathrum
Sorry, a watt is never equal to a watt when efficiency is involved. There is no fair comparison between two completely different technologies. Heat is a byproduct of the way the electricity is used. Take your standard aquarium heater. You can see the elements glow when they heat up, yet it does not produce nearly as much light as its equivalent wattage T5 or MH. Fans or not, because of it's design a MH watt for watt will produce more heat.

Slathrum, here is a good thread concerning the subject:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1330449&perpage=25&highlight=watt heat&pagenumber=1

[stevedola]

a watt is a watt. just like a pound of feathers is equal to a pound of brick.

[slathrum]

Well, I guess our lights defy the laws of physics then if all of our light energy is equally converted into heat. Energy doesn't just come out of nowhere. If energy is being used to create light, then it is not creating heat. The more efficient a light setup is, the more light it will create per watt used whether it is T5 or MH.

[mightyevil]

So then on my 72''x24''x24'' I should go with MH?

should I do MH only or supplement with actinics?

What do I use? Icecap ballast? what type bulb? where can I get them for less money?

[alex1965]

I think your tank would be ok. With a MARISTAR metal halide t-5 fixture.

[ReefEnabler]

I used to have (2) 250w and (1) 400w MH on my 72 x 24 x 30" tank. Lumenmax Elite reflectors. ~8" above water.

I had really intense bright spots under the reflectors (700-800 PAR 5" below water), but still had very poor dark spots between the reflectors (ie, there were places in the tank 5" below the water with 700 PAR, and also places with ~150 PAR).

I was frustrated with the dim spots so recently switched to 9 x 80w T5s overdriven on 3 icecap 660 ballasts.

I have almost the same intensity of the old 'hotspots', about 80%, but none of the dim spots. And I'm actually getting MORE PAR at the bottom of the tank in most areas. So the notion that T5s do not penetrate as deeply as MH is simply a myth.
I gladly accept some loss of hotspots for a much more even distribution and less shadows, better coral branch coverage.


Lumenarc minis would have given better spread than the Lumenmax Elites, but they're a bit too big for my canopy, and they're much less intense than the lumenmax elites anyways, so I'd have lost PAR still.

[James77]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14897619#post14897619 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by slathrum
Well, I guess our lights defy the laws of physics then if all of our light energy is equally converted into heat. Energy doesn't just come out of nowhere. If energy is being used to create light, then it is not creating heat. The more efficient a light setup is, the more light it will create per watt used whether it is T5 or MH.

Energy also just does not disappear, either. Energy cannot be created or destroyed. When the light produced strikes something, be it sand, rock, coral, the wall, whatever- it will be turned to heat or used (by coral, i.e.). If it is put to use, that will become heat.

It is the same for a 100 watt water pump and 100 watt heater. Both will impart the same heat, 100 watts, into the water.

[ReefEnabler]

It is true a 100w pump will produce exactly the same amount of heat as a 100w heater; however, there is a difference between an external (air cooled) and submersible pump.

The air cooled pump will give off more heat to the air and thus the room. This may not be an overall energy savings (ie, hot air means house AC cylces on more often), but it might be easier to remove the heat via exhaust to outside or something.

In the same way T5s and MH do produce the same heat watt for watt. But T5s have a greater surface area for fans to blow across and it might be possible to extract more heat via ventillation. Your mileage may vary. But there is absolutely NO doubt that a watt is a watt and the luminous efficacy has absolutely nothing to do with it. The light itself still generates heat as others pointed out.

[drparker]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14907883#post14907883 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ReefEnabler
..... But there is absolutely NO doubt that a watt is a watt and the luminous efficacy has absolutely nothing to do with it. The light itself still generates heat as others pointed out. The only difference will be the efficiency of the ballast, a 90% efficient ballast will pull about 445 watts to drive 400 watts of light and will turn the extra 45 watts directly into heat. So placement of the ballast and it's efficiency will also effect heat transfer and cooling design.

[ReefEnabler]

good point.... a kill-a-watt is probably the only way to know the true amount of power being drawn. you can't just go by the raw wattage specs.

[gooyferret]

What is really funny about this post is back in 2003...they had this same debate! When t5's HO first came out people were comparing them back then....only difference is that it was not vs MH but against PC's and VHO! haha Im old i know! but back in the day that was the new thing t5's and they have finally caught on to the aquarium.

Back then i had a company that was will to make me a complete hood system with 8 - t5's for $300 and now i wish i would have done it! Instead I opted for the 250watt MH that costed me $600 for retrofits. This debate will never end, MH have been through the test of time and are trusted even with alot of heat.

Wattage makes no difference with the lighting (except cost to run) its the way its projected and intensity of light from watts being used. They could come out with a 1watt bulb and produce the same intensity of light that either make some day. SPS can be kept with even VHO lighting (which i really like the look of).

MH does have a very simple advantage over t5's or any other fluoresent bulb though......the reflector. The reflector is getting better and better for the MH's and not much can really be done with the t5's.

Anyways this is getting too long of a post! haha. Just thought i would through out some old advice. And im glad to see t5's in the market, but since i have the cost into my MH already i will stick with them for now...... :)

[James77]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14908687#post14908687 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by gooyferret

MH does have a very simple advantage over t5's or any other fluoresent bulb though......the reflector. The reflector is getting better and better for the MH's and not much can really be done with the t5's.


T5 reflectors have progressed tremendously from a few years ago. Single parabolic reflectors, as well as material like miro silver- they give MH a run for its money- outdoing it PAR-wise alot of the time.

[slathrum]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14907769#post14907769 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by James77
Energy also just does not disappear, either. Energy cannot be created or destroyed. When the light produced strikes something, be it sand, rock, coral, the wall, whatever- it will be turned to heat or used (by coral, i.e.). If it is put to use, that will become heat.

It is the same for a 100 watt water pump and 100 watt heater. Both will impart the same heat, 100 watts, into the water.

Oh well, I guess I'm just too stubborn or ignorant to buy into this. Even the pump analogy does not make sense. The majority of the energy used by a pump is used by transferring it into water current. Try heating your tank solely with water pumps and I think you'll find you need quite a bit more pump wattage than you would heater wattage. Eventually, that energy will disperse and be no more. Energy is certainly not infinite in that way of thinking. Lighting is no different, except for that some of the electrical energy used to produce light produces radiant heat in the water.

[gooyferret]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14908860#post14908860 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by James77
T5 reflectors have progressed tremendously from a few years ago. Single parabolic reflectors, as well as material like miro silver- they give MH a run for its money- outdoing it PAR-wise alot of the time.

Yes they have come along also but there is only so much you can do with single line reflector.. Trust me im not dissing on either of them, I knew eventually t5's would get more popular just didnt think it would take 6 years! LOL

[James77]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14908949#post14908949 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by slathrum
Oh well, I guess I'm just too stubborn or ignorant to buy into this. Even the pump analogy does not make sense. The majority of the energy used by a pump is used by transferring it into water current. Try heating your tank solely with water pumps and I think you'll find you need quite a bit more pump wattage than you would heater wattage. Eventually, that energy will disperse and be no more. Energy is certainly not infinite in that way of thinking. Lighting is no different, except for that some of the electrical energy used to produce light produces radiant heat in the water.

Throw a 50 watt pump and a 50 watt heater in their own 5 gallon buckets and see what happens. Uncovered, the one with the pump will be cooler as it is losing its heat/energy to evaporation- it will also evaporate faster due to the surface agitation. All of the pumps watts will be converted into heat in someway. Feel any submersible pump after it is running- they get very warm. The friction from the water hitting itself will recapture the energy that was used to pump.

Throw lids on both the buckets, and they will heat identically. All the energy/heat, except for the heat lost through the walls of the bucket, will remain in the bucket. It is a simple enough experiment to try- see what happens.

If you haven't please read the thread I linked above- it covers this all extensively, takes no more than 10 minutes to read.

[fender4string]

I haven't checked this thread in just under a week or so-I thought it would have died by now :D.

At least based on the information in this thread I feel that I pretty much can't go wrong.

[Tony Romano]

maybe......LOL!

[gooyferret]

You can never go wrong just buy what makes you happy! As for the "debate" its still on and will be till the end of time! AMEN! LOL