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View Full Version : Dropped fixture in tank - Need help


CoRPS
05/11/2009, 01:35 PM
I made a stupid move and the right side of my light fixture dipped in the water. I've heard before that the LAST thing you want to do is put your hand in the water as that would create a ground and electrocute all of your inhabitants. So, I thought quick and lifted it up from the left side. It sparked and smoked up a little bit, not too much though.

I took it completely apart and set a fan up to dry it out, I found that one of the endcaps is done. The fixture still lights up fine but like I said, one of the endcaps (the one that was sparking) is done.

I took the bulb out of that endcap and fired it up again, I don't smell any smoke or see any sparks, however, it will electrocute me every once in a while. I'm wondering what I could do to fix this, right now I'm running it only on the ballast/endcaps that were unaffected and leaving the effected ballast/endcaps off.

I'm wondering what I can do? Is there some other kind of problem that will cause it to electrocute me or is it happening because of loose electricity from not having one of the bulbs plugged in. I don't really know much about electronics so if you could explain in the most layman terms possible.

Edit: All the tank inhabitants are fine, but won't be for long without lighting. Their zooxanthellae are freaking out!! :)

troylee
05/11/2009, 01:47 PM
sounds like you need a gfci plug this would have prevented anything from getting shocked or catching fire including your self...... what kind of fixture is it??? can you just strip it and use the parts as a retro and get new end caps???most likely if it smoked and sparked there is a cut in a wire or something grounding it out and causing you to get electrocuted....i personally would take the whole thing apart and check all the wiring and replace it, and the endcaps that smoked ......

CoRPS
05/11/2009, 01:52 PM
It's connected to a surge protector that is plugged into a GFCI. Nothing tripped, and in fact it didn't smoke for about 20-30 seconds after it took a dive.

I was thinking about setting it up as a retro but I don't wanna spend the massive amount of cash on individual reflectors (and if I set it up as a retro I'm not using the single reflector the fixture came with)

Markarian421
05/11/2009, 02:01 PM
The salt in there is bad, I'd rinse everything with distilled (or at least RO) water and re-dry.

darkdruid
05/11/2009, 02:10 PM
The salt is conducting the electricity. Rinse everything well with freshwater and let it thoroughly dry.

CoRPS
05/11/2009, 02:12 PM
Thanks guys. How long should I wait for a complete dry? (I really don't want to get shocked again, it's happened 3 times and it gets worse everytime. Even worse than that is that all three times was in the EXACT same spot on my palm.. Oh god it's still buzzing after 45 minutes.

Edit: Should I just rinse out the endcap?
Edit2: My brother is telling me to use 92%+ rubbing alchohol, would that be better than freshwater?

ah30k
05/11/2009, 02:24 PM
BTW, I seriously suspect a problem with your GFI if you are getting zapped and the GFI is not tripping.

darkdruid
05/11/2009, 02:30 PM
Rinse out the endcap too. The only benefit in using the alchohol would be that it evaporates and dries faster.

Jackie Blue
05/11/2009, 02:55 PM
Get a new GFI outlet because this one obviously failed you.

stugray
05/11/2009, 03:34 PM
Rinse everything off using distilled water EXCEPT for the ballast ( that didnt get wet did it? ).

Then you may pour a small amount of Isopropryl Alcohol ( preferably over 90% pure ) over the endcaps and connectors.
This will help drive out the moisture.

Then you can dry the parts out in your oven at the lowest setting for a couple of hours.

AND YES you need to replace the GFCI if it did not trip once ANYTHING got shocked. It is faulty or the power strip has a faulty ground prong.

Stu

CoRPS
05/11/2009, 03:46 PM
The ballast didn't get wet as far as I know. I'm going to let the corals soak up as much light as they can and I'll be cleaning it out tonight or tomorrow. Thanks for your input guys.

Also one quick question, why is it that everytime a cellphone or other such device gets wet it's completely ruined, whereas things such as this light can be literally doused in water and be fine?

troylee
05/11/2009, 04:05 PM
a guess would be lights have no circuit boards or lcd screen in them lol....stu will answer that for ya....i actually droped my 3g "i" phone in the sump last week lol....i let it dry 2 days and it worked again guess i got lucky..lol...:)

therealfatman
05/11/2009, 04:50 PM
The end piece you are talking about that the tube inserts into is called a tombstone. Go to an electrical supply house, not an hardware store , that is frequented my electricians and contractors not home owners. Preferably take your old tombstone with you. There are dozens of different designs made but most often there are four or five different ones that will work with an application. You can pick up an aerosol can of circuit board cleaner while your there. Expect to feel like your on a foreign planet while your there as electricians have there own vocabularly/language when dealing with their parts and procedures, tests etc.

JoelNB
05/11/2009, 06:36 PM
Using water to rinse will dissolve the salt more thoroughly. Saltwater conducts electricity sooo much better than freshwater. Do any parts have carbon on them from arcing? Carbon conducts electricity as well so you'll need to remove that. BTW, phones can stay wet for weeks due to the close layers of plastic inside them.

Jackie Blue
05/11/2009, 06:57 PM
Phones have a lot finer circuitry which allows the impurities in the water to short them out much easier.

troylee
05/11/2009, 07:22 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14992576#post14992576 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by therealfatman
The end piece you are talking about that the tube inserts into is called a tombstone. Go to an electrical supply house, not an hardware store , that is frequented my electricians and contractors not home owners. Preferably take your old tombstone with you. There are dozens of different designs made but most often there are four or five different ones that will work with an application. You can pick up an aerosol can of circuit board cleaner while your there. Expect to feel like your on a foreign planet while your there as electricians have there own vocabularly/language when dealing with their parts and procedures, tests etc.
a tombstone socket is way different than a t5 socket or endcap..... the reason they are called tombstone sockets are because they are the shape of a tombstone lol.....i use them all the time in my trade......

mustang51js
05/11/2009, 07:25 PM
if he has the same light as me they dont have the tombstones on the end, the bulbs are held in with clips and the end sockets are a square with the holes for the pins and it floats in the air, and more than likely the ballast would've burnt out before the gfi because the line wires didnt get wet it was the load on the ballast that got wet and wasnt picked up though the ballast by the gfi

uncleof6
05/11/2009, 11:25 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14991451#post14991451 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by CoRPS
I made a stupid move and the right side of my light fixture dipped in the water. I've heard before that the LAST thing you want to do is put your hand in the water as that would create a ground and electrocute all of your inhabitants. So, I thought quick and lifted it up from the left side. It sparked and smoked up a little bit, not too much though.

I took it completely apart and set a fan up to dry it out, I found that one of the endcaps is done. The fixture still lights up fine but like I said, one of the endcaps (the one that was sparking) is done.

I took the bulb out of that endcap and fired it up again, I don't smell any smoke or see any sparks, however, it will electrocute me every once in a while. I'm wondering what I could do to fix this, right now I'm running it only on the ballast/endcaps that were unaffected and leaving the effected ballast/endcaps off.

I'm wondering what I can do? Is there some other kind of problem that will cause it to electrocute me or is it happening because of loose electricity from not having one of the bulbs plugged in. I don't really know much about electronics so if you could explain in the most layman terms possible.

Edit: All the tank inhabitants are fine, but won't be for long without lighting. Their zooxanthellae are freaking out!! :)

Putting your hand in the water would not create a ground. And unless you have put a ground probe in your system, the tank water is not a ground either. The fixture is not electrocuting you either or you would not be talking to us.:) The arcing and smoke was from the tube ends shorting to each other, or to the fixture, and between the pins is more likely. This is an inductive load, as mentioned earlier, so the GFCI probably would not detect the short to ground, and definitely would not detect a short between the pins-- current in equaled the current out, so the GFCI would not trip. Clean and dry the fixture as stugray stated, replace the burnt endcap, and the lamp, make sure the reflectors are grounded, and put it back into service. The tank inhabitants were not in danger as you might expect them to be. Because unless the tank water is a ground plane, (has a grounding probe in it) the current would flow to the closest ground plane, which would be the fixture itself. (if it is grounded) Fluorescent lamps will induce a voltage into the reflectors of the fixture,(or other metal parts) if the reflectors and metal parts are not grounded, it is a static voltage (no current) it is a bite, similar to rubbing your feet on a carpet and touching a door knob. A shock is an intense "tingling" and will not kill you unless the current crosses your heart. e.g. from the left hand to the right hand, hand to foot etc. It can be uncomfortable though.

Tombstones are used for T5, T8, and T12 lamps. Waterproof endcaps for these lamps, have a socket inside, that resembles, but is not, a tombstone. Power compacts, the four pin mentioned above, do not use a tombstone.

Regards,

Jim

mustang51js
05/12/2009, 05:15 AM
jim, i have a cheapo t5 and the sockets on it are like an mr16 type but turned longways if you know what i mean and that is what i was talking about the pin connector, i figured it might be the same light because of the single reflector like i have.

therealfatman
05/12/2009, 05:20 PM
Darn, that Nation Wide major Electrical Supply Store I worked for one summer was wrong in calling basically all tube type "end caps" tombstones as were all the manafacturers who listed then under that section heading in their catalogs.

uncleof6
05/12/2009, 09:39 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14995483#post14995483 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mustang51js
jim, i have a cheapo t5 and the sockets on it are like an mr16 type but turned longways if you know what i mean and that is what i was talking about the pin connector, i figured it might be the same light because of the single reflector like i have.

The mr16 socket would not be called a tombstone. Tombstone sockets look like a "tombstone", generally flat on the bottom, and rounded or semi rounded at the top. It is not really that critical, to precisely define a socket as a tombstone or not, it is an electrician's term anyway, and it is better to identify a particular socket either by direct comparison, or by a number such as mr16. Going into a supply house and generically asking for a tombstone, would not get you very far, what would, however, would be asking for a T5 or T8 or T12 socket, or a cup of tea or coffee, bring some donuts and they will probably show you how to wire them up. Most that work in supply houses are not electricians. They know the parts, but that does not qualify as an "electrician"

Jim

CoRPS
05/12/2009, 09:53 PM
My end cap actually does look like a tombstone. Ill go tomorrow or the next day and see if thy will help me, the corals should be fine with 2x54w till then.

therealfatman
05/13/2009, 07:19 AM
I just about bet you if you walk into a large electrical supply house and walk up to the counter and say you want a tombstone, they will thumb through a huge probably 18" to 24" or larger binder of catalogs until they come to the earmark saying tombstone. There they will find three or four small catalogs of manafacturers they normally deal with who specifically sell tombstones, end caps, pin connectors and about any and every type of lighting bulb connector to include power compcat T-5 or T-(what ever), VHO, Halide moguls, and HQI tube holders. There will be many designs and different methods of attachment types. Tombstones were around for a long time before most the other connectors and as such the others are just grouped under that name for ease. Now with computers you could type in tombstone at the parts counter and they would come up with a structured list (tree) under a general heading that contained many bulb, and tube type connectors under that. The list would not just contain listings of the larger pin flourescents however they would be at the top of the structured list. Within the catalogs they are usually listed under several different common manmes such as end piece T-5, CF etc.

I am not saying all lighting connectors are tombstones, it is merely one of the older names for end connectors so most other items as such get grouped under it for ease. Almost everyone who works in a parts store quickly learns/knows what a tombstone is so it is easy to think of and easy to use as a group title and likely easy for them to find. I am saying that is will get the parts guy headed in the right direction quickly without making a purchasing laymen dumb. As there are many many connectors available he will likely have to show the catalog drawing to you anyway. Even if you actually take the part in he will have to look it up anyway. They might even have to order it if it is a non standrad (chinese part). I have not met any wholesaler that miantains all parts prices, photos and such on their computers.

All cars, trucks, vans and SUV's are commonly refered to and listed commonly under the group title of motor vehicles but a motor is a device that converts the electricity to mechanical work and an internal combustion engine is an engine not a motor. So should we argue that a common Chevrolet or Ford is a engine vehicle not a motor vehicle and a Tessa is a motor vehicle with no engine.

Wow I am glad I do not live down their where parts are hard to buy for lack of adequate experienced people who will work in sells. Here a common retirement job for trades people is sells in their previous trades. Lots of old electricians working in sells up here. Easy indoor job with full benefits and the respect of the employeers and customers. Same goes for plumbers, painters, carpenters etc. The inexperienced people stock, warehouse and clean until they learn enough by osmossis to work under an experienced trades person.

I used to think that Jay Walking with Jay Leno was funny now it is just sad. Of course where I live we just got our first, HomeDepot, Lowes and Walmart a few years ago along with Petco. Even the large chain stores up here have trades people working in nearly all major departments.

RumLad
05/13/2009, 08:33 AM
And here was me thinking Tombstone only meant Pizza :lol:

Seriously though OP, if you keep getting a shocking sensation every time you put your hand in a certain place, STOP putting your hand in that place! Get the fixture dried out, replace all burnt / fried / smoking pieces and try to get the light fixture back to an operational status. And use a meter to detect stray current, not your palm.

therealfatman
05/14/2009, 01:59 AM
Yum Pizza, now fatman hungry again!