GFCI tripping problem

[jpc763]

First, sorry for the long post...

I have a 125g Reef Tank in my basement. I have 2 dedicated 15A circuits to the tank area for power. Each circuit has a 15A GFCI recepticle on it.

I have 2 so that if one trips, I don't lose 100% of the power to the tank.

The tank has been set up since February.

In March I had the left side GFCI start tripping due to a faulty skimmer pump. Replacing the pump caused the problem to go away.

Now, twice in the last week, the right side GFCI has tripped. I am not sure what is causing it and thought I would ask for help.

Here is what I have connected...

Left Side Circuit
Vertex IN250 Skimmer with Resun pump
Tunze 6000 (left side)
250w Heater
QT Tank filter, powerhead & light

Right Side Circuit
Rio HF 32 return pump
Tunze 6000 (right side)
3 x 250w MH fixture (2 magnetic ballast, 1 electronic)
2 x 160w VHO fixture
12A powersupply for cooling fan system
Nightlight system
Fuge light
400w Heater
250w Heater
JBJ overflow with pump
Webcam

I moved the return pump and the 400w heater over to the left side after the most recent GFCI fault.

My question is... Any suspects on what is causing it?

Thanks, John

[Miasma_F]

Could be the VHOs. My VHO ballasts just don't get along with any GFI so I had to plug them into a different outlet.

Nothing wrong with the ballasts, just something with regards to how they are designed.

[jpc763]

What is interesting is that I have had no problems for 3 months, then twice in 1 week.

Do balasts need time to burn in?

Also, both times it happened around 2pm. The VHO turn on at 11 AM and the MH turn on at 1 PM. Nothing turns on at 2pm.

John

[troylee]

or check your heaters i actually had one that kept popping a breaker and come to find out the glass was cracked...dang it........it took awhile to trace it down since the heater only came on once a week or so........and i didn't put it on it's own receptacle.......

[ghrorick]

I put in two gfcis in feb. and had a light that was wired wrong that tripped out the left one. I replaced the light and everything was ok for a week, then the left one started tripping out every time the lights came on. the crazy part was the lights were hooked up to the right one. well after a week of it tripping when the lights came on it finally shorted completely out and fried (I was worried the thing was on fire or something because it smelled so bad). Luckly it wasn't on fire and I picked up a different gfci so I changed it out the next day ( In hind sight I should have switched over to the other until I switched out the bad one). Everything has been fine since. My friend who is an electrician told me that sometimes after one trips for some reason it just doesn't work right again, no idea why, it just doesn't.

[Spinny]

I agree with ghrorick. Problematic GFCI's, sometimes just need to be replaced.

[goofyreefer]

I would agree about the GFCI. I would try replacing it with a new one.

[stugray]

Do you have: a ground probe, any external shaft driven pumps, or a Chiller?

If the answer to all of the above is NO, then you likely have a faulty GFCI.

If the answer to any of the above is YES, then you could have a heater or powerhead going bad.
Keep moving things from one GFCI to the other & note which side trips.

Stu

[jpc763]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15018941#post15018941 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by stugray
Do you have: a ground probe, any external shaft driven pumps, or a Chiller?

If the answer to all of the above is NO, then you likely have a faulty GFCI.

If the answer to any of the above is YES, then you could have a heater or powerhead going bad.
Keep moving things from one GFCI to the other & note which side trips.

Stu
I have a grounding probe. It is grounded into the side that is tripping...

No chiller or external pump.

Stray voltage maybe?

[uncleof6]

See, I left this one alone ........... I knew that was coming...........

Jim

[jpc763]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15019931#post15019931 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by uncleof6
See, I left this one alone ........... I knew that was coming...........

Jim
I am confused. You knew what was coming?

Do you think that is what is doing it? Stray voltage in the tank?

[stugray]

uncleof6,

"I knew that was coming.."

Just helping to troubleshoot.
The symptoms are different depending on Ground Probe or not.


jpc763,

"It is grounded into the side that is tripping."

It makes no difference which side the GP is plugged into.
As long as both GFCI outlets are grounded properly.....

Stu

[uncleof6]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15020170#post15020170 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by stugray
uncleof6,

"I knew that was coming.."

Just helping to troubleshoot.
The symptoms are different depending on Ground Probe or not.


jpc763,

"It is grounded into the side that is tripping."

It makes no difference which side the GP is plugged into.
As long as both GFCI outlets are grounded properly.....

Stu

I understand that stu....it was the relationship to "stray voltage"

Jim

[uncleof6]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15019952#post15019952 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jpc763
I am confused. You knew what was coming?

Do you think that is what is doing it? Stray voltage in the tank?

It is a rather tired subject, and most people do not understand the problem. (meaning misunderstand it) Induced "stray" voltage is not a problem. current flow is. Voltage is potential, and can exist without current flow. Providing a path to ground (e.g. grounding probe) guarantees current flow in your tank. Even if you measured essentially zero voltage, you could still have current flow..... and even if the source of the induction, lights or other things are connected to a GFCI, it will not trip.

Jim

[mmedeiros2]

+1 uncleof6

Induced voltage that is shorted to gnd. will not cause a gfi to trip.
I would either isolate 1 device at a time by connecting it ti the other gfi, or just try a new gfi. Even if the gfi is not the prob. you could keep one on hand.

[jpc763]

Well it has not happened again. 2 days since the last time. I have moved 1 heater and the return pump to the other circuit as of now.

Do you think a malfunctioning heater could cause it? I have a 250w Stealth heater that has visible bumps on it. It is plastic, not glass so I am not sure it is malfunctioning, but thought I would ask.

Thanks, John

[Bugs825]

I also vote to replace the GFI. Don't use the cheapest one that you can find. Otherwise, its a short between the "neutral" and ground.

GOOD LUCK

Nathan

[mmedeiros2]

Do you think a malfunctioning heater could cause it? I have a 250w Stealth heater that has visible bumps on it. It is plastic, not glass so I am not sure it is malfunctioning, but thought I would ask.

A malfuntioning anything can cause this. Keep isolating 1 device at a time by connecting it ti the other gfi, or just try a new gfi.

[mustang51js]

i will add that if all your lights are on and both your heaters kick on your overloading the circuit,this could be the problem also, but you might want to look at running a 20amp line if you have all that stuff on there

[mmedeiros2]

You should only draw 1 amp for every 120 watts.

[uncleof6]

Right Side Circuit
Rio HF 32 return pump
Tunze 6000 (right side)
3 x 250w MH fixture (2 magnetic ballast, 1 electronic)
2 x 160w VHO fixture
12A powersupply for cooling fan system
Nightlight system
Fuge light
400w Heater
250w Heater
JBJ overflow with pump
Webcam

Out of curiosity, am I the only one that sees a problem with this?

EDIT: Oh ok, I see some one else sees it also. Not all of it, but some of it.

[jpc763]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15028574#post15028574 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mustang51js
i will add that if all your lights are on and both your heaters kick on your overloading the circuit,this could be the problem also, but you might want to look at running a 20amp line if you have all that stuff on there

I will need to have it rewired to run 20 amp circuits. The wire is 12/3.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15028844#post15028844 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mmedeiros2
You should only draw 1 amp for every 120 watts.
So you are saying that I have too much on that right side?

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15029412#post15029412 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by uncleof6
Right Side Circuit
Rio HF 32 return pump
Tunze 6000 (right side)
3 x 250w MH fixture (2 magnetic ballast, 1 electronic)
2 x 160w VHO fixture
12A powersupply for cooling fan system
Nightlight system
Fuge light
400w Heater
250w Heater
JBJ overflow with pump
Webcam

Out of curiosity, am I the only one that sees a problem with this?

EDIT: Oh ok, I see some one else sees it also. Not all of it, but some of it.
Are you saying that too much is on that side?

I moved the 400w heater and the Rio HF 32 pump.

Will that work?

[uncleof6]

Too much inductive load also. (Inductive load and GFCI don't play well together) Will ask you a rather simple question: If you grabbed the load side of the MH or VHO ballast, would the GFCI trip? A GFCI will trip under the following conditions:

Hot to ground
Neutral to ground
Hotted hot (double ended circuit)
If the circuit is overloaded

Will a malfucntioning heater trip a GFCI? Only if it has a ground reference in it. (A three prong plug) and it is shorted to that ground. or in the case of a cracked heater casing, if a grounding probe is installed.

A GFCI will not trip under these cricumstances:

Contacting both the hot and the neutral conductors
Contacting the output side of a ballast or transformer (because they isolate)

With out going on all night, inductive loads have "quirks" about them that can "trick" a GFCI into seeing a current leakage, and it may not be an "always" thing.

Other considerations: Amateur wiring, and careless wiring--by professionals, are a good source of neutral to ground faults, nicked wires also may not show up immediately but over time as the insulation shrinks due to heat. Stuffing wires in the device box is another source of hot to ground or neutral to ground faults.

Loads not recommended for GFCIs:

Circuits over 100' long.
Fluorescent or other electrical-discharge type lighting
Permanently installed electric motors

I never have and never will recommend that non-electricians do any kind of wiring of electrical systems. There are too many ways to do it wrong, and only a few ways to do it right.


Jim

[mustang51js]

if you are saying you have a 12/3 now you just need to change the breaker, you can also move some of the things around to balance out the load also, like moving the vhos, and a couple smaller things over and keeping the mh almost by themselves.

[A.K.A. ReefDoctor]

I have switched out all of my GCFI outlets to GCFI Circut breakers at the fuse box. This still meets codes and is just as safe but doesnt seem trip as easily.

[mmedeiros2]

+1 uncleof6

[Bugs825]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15031258#post15031258 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by A.K.A. ReefDoctor
I have switched out all of my GCFI outlets to GCFI Circut breakers at the fuse box. This still meets codes and is just as safe but doesnt seem trip as easily.


Give them time!:D

[jetfixr]

I bought a GFI pigtail for use on my fishtank and it kept on popping. One at a time I plugged stuff in and it would always pop when I plugged the flourescent lights. I checked the fixture and there was no current leak to ground what-so-ever. I replaced the pigtail with a GFI outlet at the wall and haven't had a single problem since. After a bunch of research, I had heard some other folks having issues with a certain brand or type of GFI outlets and ballasts.

[jpc763]

Well it happened again today and was finally repeatable...

One of my magnetic 250w ballasts is the culpret. It will trip the GFCI by itself.

So my question is... why?

And, do I need a new ballast or just a new GFCI?

Thanks in advance.

John

[das75]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15095605#post15095605 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jpc763
Well it happened again today and was finally repeatable...

One of my magnetic 250w ballasts is the culpret. It will trip the GFCI by itself.

So my question is... why?

And, do I need a new ballast or just a new GFCI?

Thanks in advance.

John

could be the ballast itself, or even salt creep on the reflector

[jpc763]

Well I am not sure about salt creep since the tank is 3 months established and there is essentially no salt on the reflectors.

The ballast functions normally. It fires and the bulb goes on. My suspicion is that for some reason it looks abnormal to the GFCI.

[uncleof6]

A magnetic ballast is an inductive load it is also a High intensity Discharge (electrical discharge) light system. School is out, not just out of coffee. The ballast is fine, the GFCI is fine.

J

[mmedeiros2]

+1 - uncleof6

[jpc763]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15096141#post15096141 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by uncleof6
A magnetic ballast is an inductive load it is also a High intensity Discharge (electrical discharge) light system. School is out, not just out of coffee. The ballast is fine, the GFCI is fine.

J
So the ballast is fine and the GFCI is fine. I can't leave it this way, the ballast trips the GFCI.

Are you saying that for a magnetic ballast, you should not have a GFCI?

Is there a recommendation on the next course of action?

Thanks, John

[NanoReefWanabe]

did you say you are running 12/3 to the gfi's?

you cant share the neutral wire of gfi...doing so will cause nuisance trips...you can/ should only run 12/2 to gfi's..


i also think with the lists of equipment your circuts might be slightly overloaded, or boarderline

[uncleof6]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15096872#post15096872 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by NanoReefWanabe
did you say you are running 12/3 to the gfi's?

you cant share the neutral wire of gfi...doing so will cause nuisance trips...you can/ should only run 12/2 to gfi's..


i also think with the lists of equipment your circuts might be slightly overloaded, or boarderline

For the most part, the required 2 -20 amp small appliance circuits in kitchens are run using 12/3. This does not cause nuisance tripping.

Jim

[jpc763]

I believe that I am running 14/2 wiring from a 15 amp breaker to a single 15 amp GFCI recepticle dedicated to the tank.

[uncleof6]

If you have a single GFCI recpeticle serving the tank, how do you have separate left and right circuits?

Jim

[jpc763]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15101534#post15101534 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by uncleof6
If you have a single GFCI recpeticle serving the tank, how do you have separate left and right circuits?

Jim
I have 2 15A circuits from the box. One for the left and one for the right.

A contractor friend said to dump the GFCI and get an Arc Fault breaker. Thoughts on that?

[uncleof6]

Must have misunderstood the post then. The thing you HAVE to understand about that magnetic ballast: If you get a hold of the business end of that ballast, that is the side the lamp is on, and is also the water side), you are gone. The GFCI will not trip. That side is isolated from the line side, and the GFCI will only sense a ground fault on the line side. The simile is a motor plugged into a GFCI, the motor turns an AC generator. Grab the ouput side of the generator, and bye bye. The GFCI has no idea you are being electrocuted, as it is isolated from the generator.

Case in point, don't remember which thread, a reefer dropped (or it fell) a fluorescent fixture in the tank. The GFCI did not trip.

I have told you what the two most likely problems are. I cannot give (with a clear conscience) you a solution that will solve the problem. GFCI use with aquariums HAS saved lives (probably many lives.) If it is a bad GFCI, replacing it may cure the problem. But I suspect that ballast will eventually trip the GFCI again. In your original circuit listing you were pushing the limits of the circuit, but you reduced that load to a point. I would say for common sense sake, replace the GFCI, and if it trips again, you have a tough decision to make. Replacing the ballast, may solve the issue, or it may not. Ballasts are quirky.

Regards,

Jim

[das75]

arc fault breaker provides different protection than a GFI. More for the lamp cord that gets pinched behind the bed and could causes a fire. Basically the GFCI protects YOU.

[jpc763]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15101868#post15101868 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by uncleof6
Must have misunderstood the post then. The thing you HAVE to understand about that magnetic ballast: If you get a hold of the business end of that ballast, that is the side the lamp is on, and is also the water side), you are gone. The GFCI will not trip. That side is isolated from the line side, and the GFCI will only sense a ground fault on the line side. The simile is a motor plugged into a GFCI, the motor turns an AC generator. Grab the ouput side of the generator, and bye bye. The GFCI has no idea you are being electrocuted, as it is isolated from the generator.

Case in point, don't remember which thread, a reefer dropped (or it fell) a fluorescent fixture in the tank. The GFCI did not trip.

I have told you what the two most likely problems are. I cannot give (with a clear conscience) you a solution that will solve the problem. GFCI use with aquariums HAS saved lives (probably many lives.) If it is a bad GFCI, replacing it may cure the problem. But I suspect that ballast will eventually trip the GFCI again. In your original circuit listing you were pushing the limits of the circuit, but you reduced that load to a point. I would say for common sense sake, replace the GFCI, and if it trips again, you have a tough decision to make. Replacing the ballast, may solve the issue, or it may not. Ballasts are quirky.

Regards,

Jim
Hi Jim,

I understand your situation and won't push it. I have a friend who is a master industrial electrician who will getting a free dinner soon!

I am going to do a thorough inventory of what I have on each side and what their loads are and check to see if I can make improvements on the right side (with the lights). I have pretty much moved all of the pumps to the left side since when the right side trips, I need those pumps to go.

One might think that I have bare wires running all over my system, but I do not. All of my wires and cables have shrink tubing and wire clips. All the work I have done has been looked over by pro's. I just never told those guys what I had intended to plug in...

Just curious, but would an Electronic ballast be better for a GFCI than a Magnetic one?

Thanks again for all the help.

John

[uncleof6]

An electronic ballast will be less quirky than a magnetic ballast, however it will still be an inductive load.

Jim