Dolomite aragonite as a substrate??

[jlinzmaier]

Seen this substrate on another thread and I'm just wondering if there are any unwanted molecular implications to using dolomite aragonite as a substrate.

Here's the link:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160330521577&ssPageName=ADME:X:RTQ:US:1123

Anyone ever used this stuff before??

Jeremy

[Boomer]

Jer, that looks like really nice sand :) However, there is no such thing in nature as Dolomitic Aragonite Sand, Dolomite is Ca, Mg (CO3)2 is not Aragonite (CaCO3). So, it has to be a mixture of the two. It is almost impossible to have real Natural Dolomitic Aragonite Live Sand. Well, maybe 100,000 :1 shot. As Dolomite is almost always form a rock made of Dolomite which is really in most cases altered Limestone. And neither have Aragonite, as it is a non-stable mineral in a Limestone-Dolomite environment. One would have to have area, where there is natural Aragonite sand and a very near by Dolomite cliff has been erroded to produce Dolomite sand. And both would have to pure white and I don't that line at all. Finding both, PURE WHITE, in the same area, being natural "Live" with out any man-mad mixing, is like me saying I just came back from Mars ;)

More gibberish nonsense

100% natural reef base

There is no such thing as a Dolomite reef, unless it is a fossil reef under water or a fossil reef on land :)

It is funny they say Dolomitic Aragonite Sand in one breath and then say PURE WHITE ARAGONITE and Real Calcium Carbonate Aragonite, when Dolomite is not Calcium Carbonate but Calcium, Magnesium Carbonate. Finally, Dolomite will not dissolve in seawater at all and the amount of Aragonite dissolved to do anything for Ca++. Alk or pH can not even really be measured. Lets pretend this , it will raise the pH up 0.001 pH /day, Alk .005 dKH/ day and the Ca ++ .1 ppm /day. How is that going to do anything.

This
Buffers pH to 8.2

Raises Calcium when depleted

Adds natural magnesium, strontium, molybdenum

....is a BIG line of BS

Carib Sea

Principle Make-up ........Synthetic Aragonite


More nonsense this is real aragonite sand, where bacteria are added to it.

[jlinzmaier]

Thanks for picking it apart and putting some facts out there Boomer. It sounded really good but they quite obviously don't know what it is (based on their conflicting claims) and they obviously don't understand the molecular make-up of dolomite or aragonite. Makes me wonder if it would even be reef safe. That's tough to determine if we don't even know what it is.

Unfortunately, many companies that sell substrate make rediculous claims like it's capability to buffer to a pH of 8.2 and that it adds calcium, mg, and sr.

Jeremy

[jlinzmaier]

OK boomer, more questions for you!!

A friend of mine from a local reef club is looking to put together a bulk order of this substrate and that's actually how I found out about it. I posted your response to the companies info listed on e-bay and asked my friend to contact the company and see if they had any sort of response to your comments. This is what they said:

We get a customer here and there who has these technical questions and we would be happy to answer them for you. Our sand is extremely unique and rare and this fact has become more real as we have launched this beautiful sand several months ago. Due to our patented processes and materials, we can only divulge that the sand is all natural and yes it is CaCO3 sand also known as Aragonite. The only other info we can provide you with is that it is scientifically tested as 100% natural reef base and is stable in all marine environments. It is proprietary to our company that the source of our sand is not revealed, however we can tell you that it is only found in 3 small areas of the world and we own them. We appreciate your questions and hope you will try some of our sand and see for yourself how beautiful it is. Thanks!

This leads me to a few conclusions and even more questions. It sounds as if they are providing aragonite substrate (not dolomite) but how it gets so paper white I have to question further. I'm skeptical because of one particular comment in that response:

Due to our patented processes and materials, we can only divulge that the sand is all natural and yes it is CaCO3 sand also known as Aragonite.

The fact that their claiming to have a patented process leads me to believe they are somehow maniplulating the aragonite chemically to create the paper white look. Only a speculation, but I find it hard to believe that this sand is only located in 3 locations in the world and they have sole rights to it. I have to believe their patent is involving it's manipulation of coloration. That leads me to my question for you:

What gives an aragonite (caco3) substrate it's color?? I'm assuming the color may be bits and peices of other molecules and impurities. If a person were to have a 100% pure caco3 rock, would it be paper white??

Here is an example of various colors of "aragonite" substrate by Seachem - no claim that it's 100% aragonite, just states aragonite substrate (they've got some interesting claims within their marketing also!)
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578+10741+8119&pcatid=8119

Thanks.

Jeremy

[Boomer]

D²

[Boomer]

patented processes and materials

:rollface: :rollface: :rollface:

It sounds as if they are providing aragonite substrate (not dolomite) but how it gets so paper white I have to question further

Yes, that is an issue /say. The only place you will find pure white aragonite is in hard corals usually. If you break open a SPS it is often pure white in many, but sand usually degraded to a buff color. Dolomite can be either pure white or buff, to include pinkish or yellowish and the same for Aragonite, which can also be green. The other issue is Calcite can also be pure white or the same other colors above. And all these can also be colorless. The other things that can change color is the form it is in, i.e., fibrous, radiating, etc., etc. and the size of the crystals themselves. Some can even have inclusion of other minerals in them, such as high Mg-Calcite or even sand itself, which can give them a brown color.


Seeing their line of BS I do not think this is real natural sand at all but processed unfossilized aragonite if it is really that. This is the same thing Caribsea does in some cases.

However, with all that said, there are white sand beaches in Polynesia made of broken white coral, such as in Tahiti and other places in the world.

scientifically tested as 100% natural reef base and is stable in all marine environments.

Which does not say it is not mined aragonite like some of Caribsea’s is, which are more inland and not fossilized yet. Take note in his reply it does not say it is "real" sand. Meaning it is ground up unfossilized rock. Also take note the word 'Dolomite "is not in his reply, which means I'm correct and it is mixed sand :)

speculation, but I find it hard to believe that this sand is only located in 3 locations in the world and they have sole rights to it.

Hardly and if it was they sure and the Hell would not let them mine it :lol:

I have to believe their patent is involving it's manipulation of coloration.

It can to a degree. If the surface is contaminated with organics it just be soaked in bleach. I have buckets full of it in the basement.

What gives an aragonite (caco3) substrate its color??

Ion impurities, like iron. Iron can give the color of red, green and black depending on its oxidation state. And you do not need much to do this.

All that stuff from SeaChem is pretty much real as far as I can see and very common on many beaches. The back is rarer.

On another note so you know where I'm coming from most of my geology interests are in sand, gravel and pebbles. I actually have books just on sand and pebbles, 4 of them :) Not to mention about 15 or so on sand and gravel transport in water :lol:

[jlinzmaier]

Seeing their line of BS I do not think this is real natural sand at all but processed unfossilized aragonite if it is really that. This is the same thing Caribsea does in some cases.

This may very well be the case and I hadn't thought of it initially. That would also play a part in their "patented materials and processes".

Thanks again Boomer!

Jeremy

[Boomer]

:thumbsup:

[BigJay]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15056204#post15056204 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Boomer
On another note so you know where I'm coming from most of my geology interests are in sand, gravel and pebbles. I actually have books just on sand and pebbles, 4 of them :) Not to mention about 15 or so on sand and gravel transport in water :lol:

Glad you clarified this, I was beginning to wonder if you were actually there when those rocks were formed. :lol:

Thanks for cutting through the marketing-speak.

[Boomer]

Some say I'm so old I must have been :lol: Randy use to always say that. "Boomer was here before coal was formed"

[redfishsc]

Boomer, I think you, Randy, and Tatu should start your own website, systematically picking apart all the voodoo, misleading statements, and BS on reef products.

If I have another LFS employee (the kind of LFS that sells fish, tarantulas, gerbils, and boas) tell me that "live sand" will balance my pH, raise my calcium, yadda yadda, you guys are going to read about me in the newspaper.

[luther1200]

I understand what you guys are all saying but did you read the feedback? Its 100% positive. Everyone who got it seemed to love it. We have to try to find some one here on RC who has it and can give a review.

[Boomer]

redfishsc

Call us the Myth Busters" :lol:

[tmz]

is like me saying I just came back from Mars .

Welcome back , How was the trip? Boomer

[One Dumm Hikk]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15063559#post15063559 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by luther1200
I understand what you guys are all saying but did you read the feedback? Its 100% positive. Everyone who got it seemed to love it. We have to try to find some one here on RC who has it and can give a review.

Did everyone who got it know what it was, or wasn't? Ebay Feedback is more about the transaction itself. Did the seller send it? Prompt payment? Etc.. Most people that buy it aren't going to know what it is other than pure white sand, which it is, so why would they give negative feedback? The blind leading the blind.

[Boomer]

The stuff on e-bay may be very nice stuff. That is not the issue, it is the claims. And it is IMHO either for them to put up or shut-up and stop with the gibberish nonsense fo "we can't tell you" line of crap".

If anybody is really interested, then contact the main U geology department and ask them if they will run a XRD on it an that will tell you all down to the last flippin' ion of what is in it.

Tom

I found Mars a little to hot and red for me, so that is my last trip ;)

[therealfatman]

Right, I think most reef aqurists do not even know calcium carbonate rocks effervesce (bubble) when you put an acid on them such as HCl or vinegar.

"Boomer was here before coal was formed" Heck, I now believe that during the days of the dinosaurs Boomer and TMZ walked through the swamps planting the plants and trees that later became coal.

[redfishsc]

As for the 100% positive feedback, it's kinda hard to see how someone wouldn't leave good feedback on nice looking substrate. I'm pretty sure they aren't leaving feedback based on how it keeps up their calcium and other element levels. I'm sure most folks want to just order some nice looking dirt, which is apparently what they get.

My personal opinion is that, so long as it's pretty, the right grain size/shape (for sand sifters), and doesn't have a reputation for leaching phosphates and other nasties, then get some!



<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15064782#post15064782 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Boomer

I found Mars a little to hot and red for me, so that is my last trip ;)

Lord of heaven, Boomer, the average temp on Mars is like 80 below (F)! Are you a walking ice machine or something?


<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15066955#post15066955 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by therealfatman

"Boomer was here before coal was formed" Heck, I now believe that during the days of the dinosaurs Boomer and TMZ walked through the swamps planting the plants and trees that later became coal.


I think we may have figured out what (or actually, who) instigated the Big Bang... or as we now call it, the Big Boom . ;)

[Boomer]

D<su>2</sup>

[Boomer]

Are you a walking ice machine or something?

No, No, I go there in the summer where it is like 70-80 F :) And when the sun goes down I retreat to my heated cave.

[jlinzmaier]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15069530#post15069530 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by redfishsc

My personal opinion is that, so long as it's pretty, the right grain size/shape (for sand sifters), and doesn't have a reputation for leaching phosphates and other nasties, then get some!


This is why I was inquiring in the first place. More knowledge of it's true orgins, makeup, or why it is so white would determine whether or not I would put it in my tank. Since their claims were so bogus I had to call on the experts to get the real facts.

I'm not going to buy any just yet. I'll let it go though a few more tanks and see if there are any negative consequences. Since they're claiming it to be verified as 100% aragonite I still wonder if there is some sort of bleaching that occurs to get it so white. The aragonite itsself may be reef safe but if there is a process they're using to make it so white I'm just leary there may be chemical remnanats that could potentially have a negative impact on my tank. I'm also curious to see just what this stuff really looks like in a tank. It may be too white for it to look natural. It may be just as goofy looking as the neon pink and blue substrate in FW tanks!!

Jeremy