SPS are STN-ning from the base up

[Bolo Tran]

Gentlemen. I am in desperate need for all your help. It's quite a frustrating ordeal and I'm practicing my due diligence in erradicating this continuing problem but am clueless to what the problem may be. So please put on your thinking caps and assist a fellow reefer in dire need of advice.

It all started about 3 months ago with a frag of granulosa. It started to STN from the base and perished after about a week. I was passive about it as I thought shipping stress played a role. Then 2 weeks later a blue Austera mini colony began to do the same thing. I fragged more than half of it to no evail. Shortly after the fragged part met the same demise as the Granulosa. I continued to think that it was just random stressed out corals until my prized pieces like favorite mini colony of Hawkins echinita and Lokani are slowly STN from the base up. Its affirmative action time. It's been a regular biweekly event that would happen to random pieces in my tank. I've checked for AEFW but the affected pieces don't have them. I also suspected alkalinity test kits so I went out and bought 3 more test kits just to be positive that it's not alkalinity as I know it sometimes plays a role in this kind of symptom but dkh seems to be within range. I will try to list my husbandry to as much detail as I can without being too verbose. If I'm leaving any vital information out please lmk and I will include it.

•Salinity 1.026
•Run Rox .08 carbon 24/7
•amm, trites and trates=0 Api
•Mag-1300 elos
•Using calcium reactor
•Ph-8.1-8.3
•temperature-79-81
•Dkh- 10 elos, 9 Api, 9 tropic marin
•Phosphate-no test kit but no algae issues
•dosed vodka for 1 month with prodibio and 1.5 month brightwells Biofuel with prodibio
•Tank is grounded using grounding probe
•2x250 radiums with Vho superactinics and T5 blue+
•Dual Vortechs at max reef crest mode
•Dosing Zeo supplements every other day
•Weekly 10-15 gallon waterchanges with Seachem reef salt


If there's anything I'm leaving please let me know.

[Bolo Tran]

I forgot to add that all Lps and zoas are doing fine in the tank. I also have a medium size tyree green toadstool leather and a colony of pom pom xenia.

[shenyong]

my ora neon green birdnest and blue mili both have been the longest time in my tank but recently they started to STN from the base as well. All others in the tank are doing well. i even took them out and have 20 mins dipped..can't see any RB.

Please help! i feel sad because i grew them from 1" frag to 6"x5".

[plyle02]

Which zeo products are being used? Also, which Prodibio? Maybe the use of 3 different products is causing a confilct... ULNS systems should run close to NSW values... The system sounds clean, maybe it is a bit too clean....

[Bolo Tran]

I'm using prodibio biodigest. As far as zeo, I'm using pohls extra, amino acid, sponge power, pocci glow at 4 drops each every other day.
I have about 20 fish in a 120 gallon and surely they provide lots of waste so do you think that my system could still be too clean? I feed at least once a day with rods food, pellets and mysis. Could STN occur in a system that is too sterile? I don't think that this is the case but let's just say hypothetically

[sreefs]

I do not think its to clean, how often do you get a film on your glass? How old is the rock? Do you have a sand bed or BB? Do you have access to a low range phosphate meter? Did it start after adding the granulosa? Do you dip your frags before putting in your system and with what? Read up on Kip's TOTM crash, same thing happened to me after 5 years. I finally started over with new rock and only a few frags from many colonies that died. One would start to go base up then it would slowly die a week or two later then another and so on, this went on for months until all I had left was a few frags. I almost got out of the hobby! I did not have red bugs or acro eating flat worms! If you want send me a pm and I will give you my phone number and you can give me a call and I'll tell you all the things I tried with no luck. Before read kip's problems, mine was very much the same.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1125686
HTH
Pat

[ivan5105]

Maybe is potassium deficiency, this is part of the zeovit manual in zeovit.com
read




Potassium deficiency can be diagnosed in different animals as follows:
General Guide for the ZEOvit System
English
Page 25 of 30 Guide revision 1.03
Montipora, especially plating types, display slower growth and appear washed out to
grey. Latent potassium deficiency may also lead to tissue loss, spreading from one or
more spots. Stylophora and Pocillopora appear as if they have been exposed to air for a
long period of time. Polyps are completely withdrawn and colors are light and without
depth. Seriatopora may completely loose all tissue, starting from the base, within only a
few days. The pink coloration may turn into a light brown. Acropora may loose their
color and get lighter and pale. Growth stops completely. If the potassium deficiency
continues tissue is lost, mostly starting from the base. Tubinaria Reniformis stops
growth completely and withers away.
Dosing

[DurTBear]

I'm tagging along here. Same thing is happening to me with a few acro colonies. It seems to have stabilized a bit and I thought it was a few things: 1) my skimmer hadn't been cleaned in ages and wasn't pulling stuff out of the water 2) my mag levels were really low which meant Ca and Alk would be a lot lower as well. I've fixed both issues and we'll see what happens. I haven't completely lost a full colony yet but some are almost 80% dead... :(

[Bolo Tran]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15048201#post15048201 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by sreefs
I do not think its to clean, how often do you get a film on your glass? How old is the rock? Do you have a sand bed or BB? Do you have access to a low range phosphate meter? Did it start after adding the granulosa? Do you dip your frags before putting in your system and with what? Read up on Kip's TOTM crash, same thing happened to me after 5 years. I finally started over with new rock and only a few frags from many colonies that died. One would start to go base up then it would slowly die a week or two later then another and so on, this went on for months until all I had left was a few frags. I almost got out of the hobby! I did not have red bugs or acro eating flat worms! If you want send me a pm and I will give you my phone number and you can give me a call and I'll tell you all the things I tried with no luck. Before read kip's problems, mine was very much the same.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1125686
HTH
Pat

Thanks Sreef for the link. I've been reading it thoroughly been trying to absorb some of the information. What happened to Kip sounds exactly what is happening to my system to the T. All variables and factors have been duely noted so now I'm just standing back and scratching my head. I'm on page 8 of the 20 page thread and am eagerly awaiting a cure or solution to the problem...please tell me Kip had a happy ending!

To answer your questions Sreef:
•I get a film on glass every 3-4 days and clean with a magnet cleaner
•I started out my tank with Marco rocks seeded with established rock about a year ago
•I run a shallow sandbed about 2-3 inches in depth
•no low range kit available. That's going to be my birthday present to myself
•The problem started with the granulosa. I don't want to say that it was the culprit as it could have been coincidental.
•I only dip my corals when they come from an unreliable source. If I get them from TOTM guys with immaculate tanks, I go by trust and get lazy about dipping. I dip with Revive

Thanks to all who are taking time to chime in. I really appreciate it guys and keep the thoughts coming

[Joel A]

not sure how much zeo you are running, but many people report serious issues with zeovit if there alk gets above 8dKH.... not sure exactly what product causes issues with high alk, but i know it's a common issue in zeo tanks that when alk raises over 8 dKH, things start to RTN/STN

[Bolo Tran]

I'm actually not running a full blown zeo system but rather just dosing some of the supplements for color enhancements. I did dose vodka for a month and then Brightwells reef biofuel for a month but have stopped after the issues started. Ever since I started this post, I've dropped the Dkh down to 8-9. Thanks

[Bolo Tran]

Gentlemen, any ideas of other things I can try? I could really use the help. Thanks

[sreefs]

I would do as many large water changes, every other day as you can do! 30 gallon every 2 days for at least 2 weeks.
Pat

[Bolo Tran]

Pat. From reading The first 10 pages of Kip's thread, I've noticed a pattern or commonality. Most who have had this problem used Red Sea Coral Pro. I failed to mention that I used it exclusively for over a year before switching to Seachem a month and a half ago. Do you think this could be the culprit? From what I can recall, Red Sea coral pro is derived from evaporated natural sea water. Maybe there is a link to what's happening in our tanks and the mass coral die off that occured in the ocean. Not sure just throwing that in the air. What do you think?

[Dejavu]

I hvae been dealing with a similar problem for the late few months. STN will spread fast. One thing I have found that helped is moving infected corals into another system for observation. This have prevented the spread a bit.

I have yet to find the cause but, I was using coralife salt when it started and switched bck to seachem reef salt. So I don't think it the salt but it might be.

I have noticed that the TN will stop for a few weeks and it starts back once it change my GFO and carbon. The next change for me will be a different brand of carbon. I think the the dust might be getting into the tank, athough I raise it well.

What carbon and GFO are you using, if any?

[pwoller]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15059126#post15059126 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Bolo Tran
Gentlemen, any ideas of other things I can try? I could really use the help. Thanks

A wise reefer once told me that if you have sps that are dyeing from the base up then you need to look for something snacking on your coral. I would advise going in a couple hours after your lights go out with a flash light and observing what is ging on with these corals.

[sreefs]

I had this happen to me the same time Kip had his problem I was using tropic marin pro so I don't think its the salt! I think something was introduced to the tank either by coral, your skin or air. Since my rebuild I use gloves when ever I am in the tank or sump! Do you have any dirt built up in the sump? I also suck the little bit of dirt from my sump every other week. I hate to say this but I never found the cause and needed to start over.
Best of luck,
Pat

[DurTBear]

Any more news? I just lost my ORA Hawkins...I really wish this would stop. It's painful to see some of your favorite pieces slowly evaporate right before your eyes and not be able to do anything about it.

[wawawang]

It sounds like a phosphate issue. Is the dead tissue green tinted? What are you phosphates testing? Do you run a phosphate reactor? My pocilipora is a good sign my phosphates are high because it is the first to STN from the base up slowly.

[Bolo Tran]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15062015#post15062015 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Dejavu
I hvae been dealing with a similar problem for the late few months. STN will spread fast. One thing I have found that helped is moving infected corals into another system for observation. This have prevented the spread a bit.

I have yet to find the cause but, I was using coralife salt when it started and switched bck to seachem reef salt. So I don't think it the salt but it might be.

I have noticed that the TN will stop for a few weeks and it starts back once it change my GFO and carbon. The next change for me will be a different brand of carbon. I think the the dust might be getting into the tank, athough I raise it well.

What carbon and GFO are you using, if any?

I'm using BUlk reef supply rox .08 carbon but previously used kent. Do you think it could be a deficiency in an element like strontium or something else that's not testable? Does anyone feel that dosing Lugols would help the problem?

[dukes707]

i noticed you have a toadstool leather in there. you ever stopped to think that maybe the leather was releasing toxins into the water column and effectively irritating your sps to the point of TN. just a thought, i have heard this from numerous reefers in the past that mixing leathers and sps is not optimal due to the chemical battles that may insue. how is the leather doing? has that been stressed in any way? try to remove the leather for a couple weeks, do some major water changes and see if the symptoms dont subside. just a thought.
-dukes707

[NaH2Ofreak]

You know about the borate issue with SeaChem salt right? Your alkalinity readings will be off with the increased levels of borate in the salt. Do a search for the conversion. I think you simply need to add 1 dKH to your readings but not positive.

Dennis

[Logzor]

How are you confirming that your temp and salinity are correct? I had a new bottle of Pinpoint calibration fluid, which was reading 1.029. That obviously caused some problems.

I also bought a nice thermometer to confirm that my temp probe was correct.

[Gumma 1]

I think with your fish load and good feeding,you may be using to much aminos.This happen to me and once stn starts its hard to stop.I would do some water changes,stop dosing aa,change carbon,gfo.

[Alex T.]

I think with your fish load and good feeding,you may be using to much aminos.This happen to me and once stn starts its hard to stop.I would do some water changes,stop dosing aa,change carbon,gfo.

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the ROX Carbon. Being that you once vodka dosed, and are probably very close to ULNS, I'd lose this carbon as part of your regimen. ROX is extremely powerful stuff. Your exact symptoms happened in my last tank. I pulled the ROX and the problem subsided. I don't know what it is about ROX and carbon dosing/ULNS, but it seriously strips the water, and is probably best left for those that do small water changes, have feed heavily to a large bioload and have mixed reefs with measurable nutrients. What do you have to lose? If you find this is the problem like I did, your wallet will thank you for it by being able to run a less expensive carbon and changed less often.

Just my .02

[eja99]

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the ROX Carbon. Being that you once vodka dosed, and are probably very close to ULNS, I'd lose this carbon as part of your regimen. ROX is extremely powerful stuff. Your exact symptoms happened in my last tank. I pulled the ROX and the problem subsided. I don't know what it is about ROX and carbon dosing/ULNS, but it seriously strips the water, and is probably best left for those that do small water changes, have feed heavily to a large bioload and have mixed reefs with measurable nutrients. What do you have to lose? If you find this is the problem like I did, your wallet will thank you for it by being able to run a less expensive carbon and changed less often.

Just my .02

I'm going to second the ROX comment. Every time I change my carbon I have some sort of issue. I've had colors fade literally over night, very slow TN at the base of nearly all my acropora, cyano outbreaks, etc. All of my issues seem to crop up right around the time I change my carbon.

As I research the symptoms, carbon dosing seems keeps coming up as a potential culprit. I'm not sure what is happening but ROX either strips trace elements or clears up the water and unintentionally makes my lighting more powerful. Either way, I'm leaning towards getting rid of all my ROX.

[bobssecrtsn]

I'm using BUlk reef supply rox .08 carbon but previously used kent. Do you think it could be a deficiency in an element like strontium or something else that's not testable? Does anyone feel that dosing Lugols would help the problem?

you said you previously used kent? how long ago was this? all of KENTS carbon was recalled due to wrong usage of carbon. they used AIRED carbon instead of WATERED carbon. something like that. I've read up on it before. and it caused a whole reef tank to crash in acouple hours..

[Tnconcept]

This thread was started back in 09. I don't think Kent carbon is the cuprit....