View Full Version : Live rock tests? Appropriate soaking time?
scolley
05/20/2009, 05:38 PM
I've got some beautiful MarcoRocksĀ®, from www.marcorocks.com. It is completely dry, and should require no curing. But I want to be safe. Especially since I've heard of some dry rock leaching phoshpates.
I've had it in a Brute container of RO/DI water for four days. Every day I've tested for NH4, PO3 and NO4, and cannot get a test to go above 0 ppm. And since I've got some freshwater aquariums, I've been able to confirm that the test kits do indeed provide measurable readings when those chemicals are present.
So, is four days enough to be sure these rocks are OK, and need no additional testing? And if not, how long?
And is there anything else I might test for before I consider this rock ready for use?
Thanks.
PS - I'm not testing for nitrite, because it sits between ammonia and nitrate in a normal cycle, and if those two stay pegged at zero, it should be highly unlikely to find nitrite.
KarlBob
05/20/2009, 05:46 PM
I have no experience with MarcoRocks, so I don't know how long you need to watch it to be confident that it won't leach stuff into the water.
The thing I'd like to point out is that you will still need some live rock to seed the MarcoRocks with bacteria, pods, etc. I don't know any hard-and-fast guideline for the relative amounts, but I would guess that the less live rock you add, the longer it will take the MarcoRock to "come to life".
scolley
05/20/2009, 06:27 PM
Thanks KarlBob. But I'm not asking about seeding. Just how long to soak and test it to know it's "safe", or if I should be testing for anything else.
Thanks.
SpankythePyro
05/20/2009, 07:31 PM
It will still have a cycle when you actually seed it, good dry rock should not be leeching anything other than CaCO3 in a calcium deficient environment.
You will see the rock and aquarium cycle once you seed it... there needs to be death for life
scolley
05/20/2009, 07:45 PM
Oh my gosh. I just don't get it... I'm not asking about cycling.
I know all about cycling. And FWIW, a cycle COULD occur in a trash bin of supposedly dry rock if nutrients are on the rock. But the point here is that there is NO ammonia spike... a clear indicator that there are no immediately evident traces of nutrients embedded in the rock. All indicates are that it, its contents, and its surface, are all inert. So PLEASE, I'm not asking about live rock, or what I've got to do to seed this rock, or anything about my prospective tank.
My questions are so incredibly simple it's staggering...
1) Is four days enough to be sure these rocks are OK, and need no additional testing?
2) And if not, how long?
3) Is there anything else I might test for before I consider this rock ready for use? (as DRY ROCK)
Thanks.
SpankythePyro
05/20/2009, 07:50 PM
Yea you are...so I answered your question by saying just plop it in the DT, seed it, let it cycle to grow some bact. Its only going to leech CaCO3, assuming marcorocks hasn't let it sit in some chems... You've also answered your own question.
scolley
05/20/2009, 08:05 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15048339#post15048339 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by SpankythePyro
...Its only going to leech CaCO3, assuming marcorocks hasn't let it sit in some chems... You've also answered your own question. Actually not...
Apparently there is a history of some dry rock leaching phosphates. Otherwise I'd only be doing testing on NH4 and NO4 for evidence of organic matter and/or decomposition. But I've included my PO3 test specifically because of what I gather to be other people's experience with dry rock leaching phosphates (for whatever the reason - soaking in chemicals, passing man made off for natural, whatever).
So I've tested for the obvious. For what seems a reasonable (certainly not long) period... given that the results have all remained solidly zero.
What I'd like to know is if - for some reason I may not be aware of - that more time is needed to confirm "clean".
And if there is some other hidden "boogey man" that sometime hides in supposedly completely natural live rock that I should be testing for. Like phosphates - that ain't natural - something that has been found in other peoples dry rock that never should have been there.
Thanks.
SpankythePyro
05/20/2009, 08:13 PM
Ah ok then I would suggest waiting 1-2weeks then and not changing the water at all, changing the water would be removing what you are testing for. Remember to allow for gas exchange though...no oxidation=slower breakdown/leeching.
Let me know how this goes, I have some dry rock for my breeder coming in soon.
scolley
05/20/2009, 08:31 PM
Thanks. I'm not changing a drop of my water, and I'm keeping it only barely covering the rock (to minimize the water volume and thus maximize the ppm of any problem substance). And I've got a powerhead with a tube attached to suck water from the bottom of the container, and blow it out across the top of the water - maximizing both circulation and gas exchange.
But letting you know - SpankythePyro - could be helpful (happy to!), but the reality is that there have apparently been instances of "problem" dry rock sold to this community, and what applies to mine may not apply to yours.
That said, I have ABSOLUTELY NO REASON to think that this is ANYTHING OTHER THAN THE HIGHEST QUALITY rock. I just want to be cautious. And if anyone has any negative dry rock experiences, and wants to post some additional things to test for - based on your knowledge of dry rock problems (like the aforementioned phosphates) - I'd love to hear from you.
Thanks - Steve
allactiondan
05/20/2009, 09:31 PM
I did not write this (I just copy/pasted) but, here is what I do....
its abit long, but its worth the read.
After handling (literally) tons of the stuff (and doing many things wrong along the way), I thought I might take a few moments to write a wordy post on the subject of Live Rock.
Live Rock is the foundation of our reefs, and is where the most significant biological filtration takes place in our tanks. Toxic nitrates and nitrites are processed deep within the rock by many forms of bacteria. Good quality Live Rock will come with more than just bacteria, however. Good rock will be populated with corals, worms, pods, foraminiferans, and many other interesting creatures. Various macroalgaes, snails, crabs, and other inverts often "hitchhike" their way in on the rock also. A few undesirable hitchhikers such as pest anemones, hairy rock crabs, mantis shrimp, and more may also come with the rock- although a 15- minute soaking in high-salinity water (1.030 SG) will run many of these out.
Here are some of the most common types of Live Rock with descriptions (IMO & IME!):
1) Fiji- This is the most commonly available live rock on the market. It is very porous, providing good biological filtration and a lot of rock for the money. (Because it is not very dense!) Fiji rock is also usually rather inexpensive, although the quality varies a LOT from one vendor to the next. (wholesalers included.) Premium Fiji is quite beautiful once cured and encrusted with the purple coralline algae this rock is known for- but if you order the cheapest online Fiji, don't expect much!
2) Tonga Branch- Extremely dense, branched coral skeletons that add a very nice look and natural appearance to a mixed reef structure. It can be very heavy and usually carries less "life" than most types of LR. I like small amount of Tonga Branch for a diverse appearance, but do not use it as the only rock in a tank.
3) Kaileni- WOW! Deep-water Tonga rock that has a wide range of shapes, sizes, and densities. Some Tonga branch-like rock is usually mixed in small amounts, but most pieces are the huge caves and arches that make aquascapers drool. Many foraminiferans, fire corals, and a wide range of wildlife is found throughout the rock. Some of it is porous like Fiji, other pieces are hard, flat shelves or branches. This is my personal favorite Live Rock. The rock was originally named after importer Walt Smith's daughter- pronounced in the tongue of the people who collected the rock. Just a tidbit of LR trivia for ya.....
4) Caribbean- Very cool shelves and big, flat branchy pieces. Has a lot of the characteristics of Tonga branch, but not as dense. The Caribbean rock I have handled has been Haitian(I think), and is absolutely FULL of worms. Spaghetti worms, bristle worms, featherdusters- I don't know why, but there are always dozens of worms in the bag the rock comes in- so I dump them in the Live Sand vats, hehe.
5) Aquacultured rock- There are also many types of "Aquacultured" rock out there that are either man-made or mined rocks that have been kept in the ocean until colonized by marine life. Most of the man-made rock is a mixture of concrete, shells, and aragonite. Mined rock is usually aragonite or Limestone base rock. The aquacultured rock varies greatly in quality and appearance, depending on who is doing the culturing! Depending on where it is cultured, some of this rock may also be more likely to carry unwanted rock crabs and mantis shrimp. Tampa Bay Saltwater and Gulf-View are two companies that have a reputation for providing very high quality aquacultured rock. I have also seen some really bad examples out there- so be sure you are dealing with a reputable company if you are purchasing "Aquacultured" rock!
6) Misc.- There are many other varieties out there that can be hard to pin down. Buna spiny branch is a very nice looking rock that looks to be some kind of ancient acropora skeleton. Marshall Islands rock is very high quality, but is imported in smaller quantities, and is more expensive. I have also seen other Deep-Water Tonga rock that appears to be very similar to the Kaileni- perhaps just coming in through different importer channels.
Personally, I like to mix types of rock. It is my opinion that the wide variety of shapes and sizes looks more natural, and also should provide greater biodiversity from a wider range of fauna from different locations. Several of the types I have listed have specific advantages, and I like to mix the flat shelves of the Caribbean with the Kaileni Caves and Fiji boulders, with a few branches thrown in for something different.
About "Curing"...
Fresh Live rock must be "cured" before adding it to an existing system, basically because there are many dead things in there that did not survive the journey. "Curing" simply means waiting for the dying stuff to die, rot, or be eaten- while in a separate system that will not be damaged by the ammonia spike created by the funky stuff.
I think the most common mistake is not having enough water volume to cure the rock properly. If you pack 150+ lbs. of rock in a 45-gallon rubbermaid (like I did!) you will create a noxious stew that will kill many of the small organisms off that may have survived. (And, your spouse will talk about that reek coming from the basement for YEARS afterwards! ) Get the rock in as much volume as you can, such as a kiddie pool (perfect!) or large Rubbermaid trash can. You need as much circulation as you can get in there- drop a big pump in to churn the water if you can. Keeping the temperature high (80-82 degrees or so) will speed up the decay process and move things along. This is another common mistake: if the water is too cool, it sort of "preserves" the dead stuff, then it rots later- when you put it in your nice, warm tank! Hermits or snails can also help clean the rock up, but snails can only take so much of the ammonia. Frequent water changes are very helpful, especially during the first week- this is also when the smell reaches its peak. Sponges or other things that are rotting should be removed and the rock should be turned over/ blasted with a powerhead or lightly brushed with a soft-bristled brush to remove nasty stuff. I don't like scrubbing, because you remove a lot of worms and things that you might want to keep! I run actinic lighting over the rock as it is curing when possible, and reduce the photoperiod to a few hours a day. (Algae will descend on you if you give it too much light with all that goop in the water!)
After 3-4 weeks of this, the rock should be fully cured. I use my nose to tell me when it is ready, although I am told that test kits work also.
...If it smells like dead fish, put it back. If it smells like a jetty at low tide, it is ready. Be careful- sniffing LiveRock may kill brain cells-- or at least that would explain a lot after the tonnage I have sniffed!
For those of you who enjoy your kits, we are looking for the time when ammonia, nitrate, and nitrate levels are zero (or close to zero).
I do not consider myself an expert (are there any?), but I do know a lot of things I have done wrong when handling Live Rock in the past. If there is anything I can help with concerning the curing or handling or Live Rock (or anything else), please email, post, or message me- I will be glad to share any of my mistakes and experiences.
Darren Walker
www. PalmettoReefs .com
scolley
05/21/2009, 05:54 AM
allactiondan - Thanks. But I made a HUGE mistake on the title of this thread - no doubt leading to confusion...
The title should read "DRY rock testing... ", not "LIVE rock testing... "
I go on to discuss specifically dry rock in my first post, but not I see why I'm getting posts (like allactiondan's) about curing. Big mistake on my part - Sorry folks.
This ain't about curing Live stuff. It's about soaking Dry stuff to make sure it's completely clean.
Mods - I can no longer change the title of this thread. I you see this, I'd really appreciate a change of the word "live" to "dry" in the title of this thread.
Thanks.
nickxx4360
05/21/2009, 07:31 AM
Throw the rock in your tank, its dry, from a place that specialize in dry rock for a reef aquarium. With that said you should be fine. If anything you can send me some of that rock for half the price you bought it. I will put it in my tank without a second thought. :-)
liverock
05/21/2009, 07:37 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15048448#post15048448 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by scolley
Actually not...
Apparently there is a history of some dry rock leaching phosphates. Otherwise I'd only be doing testing on NH4 and NO4 for evidence of organic matter and/or decomposition. But I've included my PO3 test specifically because of what I gather to be other people's experience with dry rock leaching phosphates (for whatever the reason - soaking in chemicals, passing man made off for natural, whatever).
So I've tested for the obvious. For what seems a reasonable (certainly not long) period... given that the results have all remained solidly zero.
What I'd like to know is if - for some reason I may not be aware of - that more time is needed to confirm "clean".
And if there is some other hidden "boogey man" that sometime hides in supposedly completely natural live rock that I should be testing for. Like phosphates - that ain't natural - something that has been found in other peoples dry rock that never should have been there.
Here is a study done on different rocks phosphate content...
http://www.tampabaysaltwater.com/liverock/LiveRockStudy.pdf
Richard TBS
Thanks. :rollface: :rollface: :rollface:
scolley
05/23/2009, 09:55 AM
Thanks for posting that liverock. Great study!
In the intervening days since my last post, the Phosphate and Nitrate levels have become detectable, at 0.03 and 0.8 ppm respectively.
At first I would have been concerned about this. But looking at your study it appears that these are levels that are very common to the reef areas in the study.
My dry rock is supposed to be Fiji, and the Nitrogen and Phosphorus numbers for the Fiji rock in the test seem insane - at 30 and 37.5 ppm respectively. Next to that the seepage from my rock seems inconsequential. And given that the levels of phosphate and nitrate they are leaching into the water is very much on-par for levels found in reefs, I'm not going to sweat it. Levels that low will get sucked up as nutrients really quickly.
So it would seem that I'm through soaking this batch, and that it's "clean". And since no one has suggested any other thing that should be tested for in dry rock, I'm assuming this batch is done. And now off to test some different dry rock that I've got waiting.
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