Baking soda & Washing soda ? Brad? [Archive] - Reef Central Online Community

Mutagen

02/25/2001, 12:15 PM

Brad,

You're using the same formulation I once used, but you have the chemistry somewhat misrepresented. For those who wish to use your technique, allow me to clarify.

Washing soda is NOT sodium chloride! It is sodium carbonate.
It does not have a lower pH in water than baking soda, in fact it is much higher. Sodium chloride really is the Morton salt found in the seasoning section and is not useful for reefing purposes.

Baking soda alone will cause the water pH to drop. That is why adding the washing soda helps, it raises the pH.

If you can't find washing soda you cna make your own by baking some baking soda on a cookie sheet for about 1/2 hour at 450 F in the oven. Then mix unbaked and baked together in approximately the proportions Brad suggests.

Good reefing, Mutagen

FishBait

02/25/2001, 12:49 PM

Well I must say I found this stuff interesting, but one statement Mutagen made has me confused. Please explain to me why baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) will cause your pH to drop. Aren't bicarbonates one of the main buffering compounds found in natural aquatic systems? I have had many of my customers use baking soda in an attempt to raise their pH, and it does so quite well. Perhaps are u talking about a long-term stability? Just curious about this is all.

Doug

02/25/2001, 01:03 PM

Hi Brad,

Thanks for your help! I thought that was what you meant but I just wanted to make sure.

Hi Mutagen,

Thanks for the additional clarification.

I have used many of the commercial buffer products like Seachem and Kent but it seems that they are skewed on the sodium carbonate side which causes my pH to go too high. For some odd reason the pH in my tanks are higher than most and the alk is lower and I am hopeful that the combination of the baking soda and washing soda will help me find a happy medium. I can always adjust up or down the amount of each powder based on my pH and alk for a particular time frame.

Thanks again.

Doug

Frisco

02/25/2001, 01:24 PM

Maybe this will help - DBW has a pretty good intro to alkalinity and buffering: http://www.ozreef.org/reference/alkalinity.html

In particular check out the following chart: http://www.ozreef.org/reference/images/alkalinity_ph.html

MIKE

02/25/2001, 03:09 PM

Hi Doug,

How's things? :)

Are you sure the ph elevation is due to the buffer? If you have alot of photosynthesis in your tank, you might also skew ph to the higher side, and unless it's pretty high it's not really a big problem. If that's the case, even if you adjust the mix of buffers, the ph shift will only be temporary. Whenever I've used the SuperBuffer (don't know about the Seachem), it doesn't seem to affect ph.

BTW, you can also obtain sodium carbonate from pool/spa suppliers as a Ph Up product (read the label) real cheap.

Doug

02/25/2001, 03:31 PM

Hi Mike,

Glad to see ya! :)

I have noticed that if I use the Superbuffer it will keep making the pH continue to rise from 8.25 in the morning to 8.45+ at the end of the day on the 90g tank. If I stop using it the pH will suddenly fall off to 7.95 in the morning to 8.25 or so at the end of the day. The issue is that it doesn't seem to have a good impact on helping my alkalinity come up.

On my 75g tank the pH is always high and when I use Superbuffer on it the pH will climb to 8.6+ at the end of the day.

The only other thing that I can think of is that my water might be out of ionic balance and maybe it is utilizing more of one buffer component than the others which is giving me the elelvated pH levels.

Thanks.

Doug

Brad Ward

02/25/2001, 05:41 PM

Whoops!;) Thanks for the correction. I meant carbonate. It does however have small quantities of salts (chlorides) like all buffers do, and can raise salinity over time.

Thanks again,

Brad

WaterKeeper

02/25/2001, 05:53 PM

While the use of a baking soda-soda ash buffer serves well in an emergency one caveat should be noted. Soda ash, sodium carbonate, can convert non-carbonate hardness (i.e. calcium chlorides and sulfates) to insoluble calcium carbonate. While this is not a problem most of time it can be if one adds KW in large amounts. Here the amount of calcium carbonate precipitated can be significant. Symptoms of this happening are an elevated pH while both calcium and total alkalinity decline. In extreme cases "snowflake" precipitation and substrate cementation may occur. For routine use a magnesium/calcium bicarbonate buffer will serve one better.

Mutagen

02/25/2001, 09:15 PM

This subject ALWAYS creates confusion, probably because most reef keepers are not chemists. Hopefully, this will help!

Additive___________________buffer effect______________pH effect

sodium carbonate___________adds to buffer_____________adds to pH

sodium bicarbonate_________adds to buffer_____________subtracts from pH

sodium chloride____________no change__________________no change

calcium hydroxide__________adds to buffer_____________adds to pH

calcium chloride____________no change__________________no change

CO2______________________no change__________________lowers pH

calcium bicarbonate________ adds buffer_______________lowers pH

Now, what is what?

Soda ash = sodium carbonate = washing soda = baked baking soda = Na2CO3
Sodium bicarbonate = baking soda = NaHCO3
Calcium hydroxide = kalkwasser = pickling lime = quicklime = hydrated lime = Ca(OH)2
Calcium chloride = ice melt in some areas = CaCl2
Calcium bicarbonate = calcium reactor effluent

Alkalinity is the ability to neutralize an acid until the pH gets to about 4.3. That's the point that all carbonates are transformed into CO2.

A buffered solution is a solution which resists changes in pH when either an acid or a base is added.

In salt water systems, the compounds which provide the acid neutralizing ability, the alkalinity, are the same compounds that provide the buffering ability. These compounds are the carbonates and bicarbonates.

In salt water systems, about 80% of the buffer is present as bicarbonate. The remainder is present as carbonate. This situation is NOT fixed. Adding or removing CO2 will shift the ratio of these two compounds. Adding baking soda, washing soda, or kalkwasser will also shift this ratio. If the bicarbonate ratio goes up, the pH goes down and vice versa. This is why adding baking soda makes pH drop. It initially increases the ratio of bicarbonate to carbonate.

This situation is increased in complexity as the tank water is always exchanging CO2 with the surrounding air. If the pH is low, the water will have a tendency to give up CO2 and this increases the pH. If the pH is high, the water will have a tendency to absorb CO2 and the pH will go down. This is why the pH does not stay low when baking soda is added. The problem is, the exchange of CO2 is very much slower than we can change the system by our various additives.

If the pH of your system is highly variable on a daily cycle, you should increase water circulation and especially make sure the surface tension of the tank water is broken. Most gas exchange occurs here at the surface and the layer of surface tension on still water creates a substantial barrier to gas exchange. Also, make sure your alkalinity is up around 3.5 meq/l as this will also help.

I will post the method to use your pH meter for alkalinity testing separately.

Hope this helps, Mutagen

Doug

02/25/2001, 11:21 PM

Hi Mutagen,

Wow, Thanks for the info.

[arc]

Doug

MIKE

02/26/2001, 12:55 PM

Hi Gang,

Mutagen, great post! Thanks a bunch!

Doug, my understanding of the Kent product is that it's not supposed to do that. Something's just not right with your situation. I'm wondering if you have a bum batch, or something is wrong with it? The fact that's it's not increasing your alkalinity is also of concern, unless you're not using enough. But if you're concerned about the ph rise, I can see why you might be a little shy.

Another thing I can think of is that your alkalinity is low enough (I didn't see if/where you posted the reading) that you are having a bit of a depressed ph without adding buffer (perhaps due to photosynthesis, co2 accumulation) and that when you add buffer, it's not actually "increasing" ph but rather "restoring" ph, as buffers in the system increase. The proof of this would be if you continued to add buffer despite a ph increase to the desired alkalinity level, but the ph did not continue to linearly increase beyond an initial increase. (this may be clear as mud, let me know if it doesn't make sense).

Another thing to always verify is the accuracy of your ph and alkalinity readings. If ph is off (and almost all methods are "off" somewhat), then when it's on the "high" side maybe it's not quite as high as you think. And while alkalinity test kits are generally pretty accurate, if the chemicals get old they lose accuracy. Even if you've not had it long, who knows how long it sat on the shelf somewhere (I've personally experienced this problem).

If I were in your position, I'd buy a new alkalinity kit (they're pretty cheap), and a new batch of SuperBuffer, or mix your own using the Brad receipe, and dose buffer until the alkalinity is where you want it. I'd probably put my hand over my eyes and not watch ph (just kidding). Once alkalinity is in shape, then I'd see where I was. I'm betting you'll find that when alkalinity is corrected that ph is actually fine.

Just some ramblings on your situation.

MIKE

02/26/2001, 01:08 PM

Hi Mutagen

If you don't mind, I want to highlight this portion and be sure I understand it correctly:

Originally posted by Mutagen

This situation is increased in complexity as the tank water is always exchanging CO2 with the surrounding air. If the pH is low, the water will have a tendency to give up CO2 and this increases the pH. If the pH is high, the water will have a tendency to absorb CO2 and the pH will go down. This is why the pH does not stay low when baking soda is added. The problem is, the exchange of CO2 is very much slower than we can change the system by our various additives.

My understanding of this is that even when you add sodium carbonate (increases ph) or sodium bicarbonate (decreases ph), the change in ph is temporary, and with all things being equal, ultimately the ph will return to the it's equilibrium point based on that tanks co2 exchange. And, that all that can occur while the alkalinity actually increases. Am I reading this right?

Mutagen

02/26/2001, 07:44 PM

Mike,

You got it precisely!

Mutagen

Doug

02/26/2001, 08:50 PM

Hey Guys,

The light bulb just came on and I think I finally understand the point that you are making.

From the article that Frisco referenced, what Mike pointed out and Mutagen verified as I am reading it even if the carbonates and bicarbonates are out of whack they will reach a point of equalibrium and the pH will stabilze wherever it should be based upon the amount of lack of CO2?

Here is where I am still fuzzy.

Now the issue that I have is that even though the rise in pH is temporary is it still possible that it will go too high. The reason that I ask is because of the high Calcium and Alkalinity demand in my tank I need to add buffer more often, sometimes everyday, to keep it above 2.0meg.

Mike, you make a good point about the inaccuracy of measuring pH and I understand but I have both a Neptune pH/orp meter and a Neptune Aquacontroller Pro on the tank and both read a pH of 8.45 as I am typing this. I have also tested it before with the two different brands of test kits and they read 8.4 when the meters say 8.4 or more. I also agree that the batch of Kent SB could be bad but I have also noticed the same rise in pH when using the Seachem Reef Builder product and the Kent liquid SB. You are right about me being shy when adding the buffers when the pH climbs too high. I do stop adding it for a day or two and the pH does drop back down as does the Alkalinity.

Now do you think that if I continue to add the buffer daily will the tank never reach an equlibrium because of the constant additions? Or will it eventually reach a point where the pH will reach a limit and not climb higher?

Brad, have you noticed this same effect with your tanks or has your pH remained stable? And what is your normal pH readings it you test them?

Thanks for all your help everyone.

Doug

MIKE

02/26/2001, 09:09 PM

Originally posted by Doug
Hey Guys,

From the article that Frisco referenced, what Mike pointed out and Mutagen verified as I am reading it even if the carbonates and bicarbonates are out of whack they will reach a point of equalibrium and the pH will stabilze wherever it should be based upon the amount of lack of CO2?

Here is where I am still fuzzy.

Now the issue that I have is that even though the rise in pH is temporary is it still possible that it will go too high. The reason that I ask is because of the high Calcium and Alkalinity demand in my tank I need to add buffer more often, sometimes everyday, to keep it above 2.0meg.

Hi Doug,

Ok, looks like your ph readings are as accurate as anyone's are likely to be. As I understand it, the answer to your first question is...yes.

In your second paragraph, yes ph can go "too high". But it's a relative thing....i.e. the higher the ph, the harder it will be to have calcium and carbonates stay in solution. OTOH (Harry Truman always said he was looking for a one handed economists :)), unless ph really spikes quickly and high, I wouldn't worry about it much. I think as you dose buffer, ph will rise but hit a "ceiling", and not be problematic.

Given your particular tank, I would simply dose a balanced buffer until you get alkalinity where you want it. Dosing buffer every day, or even twice per day, wouldn't be all that unusual. The bottom line is that you need to dose it in such a way that you are daily making headway on increasing alkalinity, perhaps in small increments, but increasing it nonetheless. When alkalinity is around 3 meq., then you should have a pretty good idea about what the "maintenance" dose will be. You'll likely be surprised at just how much buffer is being consumed in your tank.

While you are doing that, don't be at all surprised if the calcium falls some. This would be expected and can be remedied by increasing the calcium dosage slightly and slowly if needed.

Man. I would guess that your tank is fully stocked, and really COOKIN'. To have those ph levels, and that carbonate usage, you must have lots of animals that are sucking up the carbonates big time. This isn't a problem except that you'll need to continually replenish! I would also suspect you must be having some pretty good growth rates? Most folks wish they had your problem! :)

[Edited by MIKE on 02-26-2001 at 09:16 PM]

Doug

02/26/2001, 09:39 PM

Hi Mike and thanks again for the help.

I knew that I should have taken chemistry instead of rock science in high school all those years ago. ;)

I was also thinking that the pH would reach a ceiling one day and am hopeful that we are both correct.

The tank is really loaded with hard corals, many SPS and LPS, and a lot of live rock. The thing that concerned me was that my coral growth rate has slowed, the coraline is in a holding pattern and I was starting to see a small amount of problem algae pop up. After seeing these changes take place I tested the Alk and realized that it was very low and in the range of 1.5-2.0 so I started to use the buffer but when the pH climbed I would stop and never get above 2.5meg for more than a day.

One interesting thing is since I started using Brad's buffer the Alk tonight is at 3.0-3.2meg which I am very happy to see. I have never had an increase in Alk like this when using the commercial buffers like I have seen using bs/ws combination.

As far as the Calcium goes it did drop from 370 down to about 250-300 based on my calcium test since last week. I had added some Tropic Marin Bio-Calcium last night and will continue to use that and the combination of Brad's buffer to bring things back to par. Once I get things back to normal, Alk about 3.5-4.0 and Cal around 400, I will start to use kalk again for my top off and hopefully at that point I will be able to use less buffer and still keep levels that I and my corals will be happy with.

On a good note, the expansion from my LPS today is better than it has been in quite some time and overall I am very suprised with the quick response from only two days of adding a buffer of this type. I can even see the polyps expanding on my green/yellow soft coral that I have not seen in sometime.

Thanks again for all the help.

Doug

FishBait

02/26/2001, 10:03 PM

Hey guys, me again :) I must say I've had 3 semesters of college chem thus far and I'm still a lil' overwhelmed by all of this, but I have q's for ya and hopefully you can help (I have all the chem professors and other biology profs confused to this point, so watch out! hehe).

Ok, here goes. First I want to know how is it possible to affect the alkalinity w/out altering pH? I have had several customers bring in to me water samples that were a lil' low in pH, ie. 6.0 or less (freshwater here fellas). They have used several commercial phosphate and carbonate buffers as well as baking soda to bring the pH up. Well they were having huge shifts in alk, going from a mid range of 180ppm to about 300ppm. But alas the pH never moved. What's up w/dat? I've been told it could be an accumulation of CO2, so I should aerate the samples before testing, did it, notta. (I should point out that I've used several different tests on each sample and have pretty much ruled out defective tests).

Now if it it were a problem w/excessive CO2, wouldn't carbonic acid be formed? And wouldn't that resultant acid cause a drop in the alk? Please help me here, I'm soooo frustrated and confused over this. I have had more people experience this and nothing seems to help them. Do u have any ideas?

FishBait

02/27/2001, 09:39 AM

Awe c'mon guys...one of ya has to have SOME idea.

MIKE

02/27/2001, 11:31 AM

Hi Fishbait,

Well, I'm no chemist and I'm certainly not that up on FW, but I'll tell you what I think. Maybe a chemical type can tell you chemical reasons why.

My experience with SW is that ph is established based on the component parts in the water. The carbonates are one of those components, continually interacting with each other, the tank water, and the atmosphere. At NSW levels of all those elements, and in an open air atmosphere that's not polluted, you have the typical 7-10 dkh alkalinity and ph of around 8.3. Put another way, the hydroxide ions and hydrogen ions in this soup establish an equilibrium at that ph.

Below around 2 dkh, ph will start to fall and can fall quickly, and above 20 dkh ph will begin to rise. At around these points, the actual ionic makeup of the water changes. Obviously at 4 dkh ph can fluctuate much more easily with changes to the water, while at 15 dkh ph will be much more durable. I'm guessing that these alkalinity ranges more or less correspond with ph ranges of 8.0 - 8.5, assuming a consistent atmosphere. Put another way, at 2 dkh you still have the ion balancing point at the same place, just fewer hydroxide/hydrogen ions on each side of the equation. At 15 dkh, you have the same equilibrium point, but many more ions on each side of the "tug of war".

When you add bicarbonate, or carbonate, you simply increase the ions on one side of the equation temporarily (resulting in a ph change). But ultimately, due to interaction with the atmospheric co2, the more major ions transform to the other side of the equation restoring the original balance and ph.

Now, here's where I'm guessing much more. As gases involved in the environment change, the ionic balancing act gets "skewed". More co2 = more constant skewing of ph to the lower side (see Mutagen's post above about co2 exchange/ph) with the hydrogen ions being more dominant, while less co2 = less constant skewing of ph to the low side with hydroxide ions being more dominant. Photosynthesis is also a tremendous contributor to the gases involved as the process uses o2 and releases co2.

During all these processes, carbonates are being used which is why the natural trend in a closed system is for a loss of alkalinity. I'm guessing that the loss is somewhat more rapid with a co2 rich atmosphere, than it would be otherwise.

I have no idea if this answered your question or even helped. I'm also interested in hearing further responses. And I apologize in advanced to the more chemically fluent for my tortured use of chemical terms.

FishBait

02/27/2001, 07:29 PM

Man, can I use u guys for stand-ins next semester? :D All I can say is my head is hurting from all of this thinking. Mike u have a ton of info there and to be honest I don't follow alot of it. Maybe one of u guys could give the chemical equation of what may be happening? I tend to understand things like this better if I see it. I really had no idea that atmospheric gases had THAT much of an affect on our systems. I think I learn more here than I do at school!!

Mutagen

02/27/2001, 10:10 PM

Fishbait,

This thread is getting long and I'm no longer sure what all your questions are, so I'll try to translate what Mike said into chemical equations.

CO2(g) <-----> CO2(aq) _________H
H2O + CO2(aq) <----> H2CO3 _____Keq1
H2CO3 <-----> H+ + HCO3- _______Keq2
HCO3- <-----> H+ CO3-- _________Keq3
H2O <-----> H+ OH- _____________Keq4

Each of these equilibrium equations has its own equilibrium constant. The solubility of CO2 will depend on the partial pressure of CO2 in the surrounding atmosphere and it has its Henry's law constant. At equilibrium, all the equation's equilibrium constants are satisfied. Anything which perturbs the system will temporarily create a state of disequilibrium. For a given alkalinity and CO2 partial pressure there will be only one equilibrium pH. However, our systems are in a constant state of change with respect to both alkalinity and dissolved CO2. We also perturb the system when replenishing alkalinity and calcium. The manner in which the system is perturbed depends on the method we choose to replace the alkalinity.

The equilibrium constants for these equations in salt water systems are now fairly well established and it is possible to solve for all the constituent concentrations at equilibrium. Basically it is 5 equations and 6 unknowns plus a charge neutrality requirement so the system is properly specified for a unique solution.

This system provides a great deal of confusion. It is a simultaneous equilibrium system where CO2 effects pH but not alkalinity. Furthermore, we use the terms alaklinity and buffer interchangeably though they don't have the same chemical meaning, but that's OK becuase the alkalinity and buffer capacity are provided by basically the same constituents!

If you continue to pursue chemistry courses, you will eventually study multi-component, multi-phase equilibrium and all will be revealed!

Good luck, Mutagen

Aaron Shelley

02/28/2001, 12:48 PM

Went to Walmart and United (the largest supermarket chain in West Texas). Couldn't find Washing Soda. Had the clerks look it up on the computer (since they had never heard of it) and it wasn't there.

Where do you folks buy it at?

If I can't find it, I'll give Mutagen's baking the baking soda thing a go. How precise is the 450 deg for 30 minutes thing?

Sound like a fun and an easy DIYer and I'll save a buck or two. That's 20 minutes of long distance you know!!:)

Doug

02/28/2001, 03:52 PM

Hi Aaron,

My wife picked up my Arm and Hammer washing soda at Jewel. I am not sure if they have stores all over the Country but it is a large food store chain in the Chicagoland area.

Did you look in the detergent section? My wife said it was near the dish soaps and household cleaning solutions.

HTH

Doug

Aaron Shelley

02/28/2001, 04:05 PM

thanks doug

that's where i looked too.

MIKE

02/28/2001, 10:39 PM

Hi Aaron,

I found it in the local grocery store, Save Mart. When I mentioned to my wife, she knew about it instantly (I'd never heard of the stuff). I would try some other local grocery chains, but you probably already know that :)

MIKE

02/28/2001, 11:23 PM

Hi Aaron,

I had another thought. Like I mentioned earlier in the thread, you can also find sodium carbonate at pool/spa supply places, or hardware stores where they sell ph products for pools. Just check the label because various chemicals are used for ph up products. But some definately use sodium carbonate.

Another possibility is to send me an email with your address and I'll buy you a coupla boxes of washing soda and send it to you. This amount will only last you .... like about 5 yrs :). I'd gladly do that if you want.

Aaron Shelley

03/01/2001, 06:03 AM

Thanks Mike!!

Let me give it "the old college try" today. I've got three more stores mapped out. One of them was the LFS. If I couldn't find it at the first two, I was going to throw in the towel and buy buffer at the LFS ;)

I'll email you if I'm unsucessful.

Thanks again. Yet another reason why this board is so good. It is full of good people...

scorpio241

06/18/2003, 08:36 PM

Is it 1 part baking soda to 6 parts washing soda or 6 baking soda to 1 washing soda

chriss

06/18/2003, 09:43 PM

Originally posted by Doug
I had added some Tropic Marin Bio-Calcium last night and will continue to use that and the combination of Brad's buffer to bring things back to par. Doug

Doug,
I just wanted to point out that Tropic Marin Bio-Calcium increases alk. If you want to just increase ca, use calcium chloride instead. I know it doesn't state this on the container (I use it also), but according to my test kits and RFH it is a balanced additive.

Chris

Doug

06/18/2003, 09:51 PM

[welcome]

Originally posted by scorpio241
Is it 1 part baking soda to 6 parts washing soda or 6 baking soda to 1 washing soda

The correct formula is 6 parts baking soda to one part washing soda.

Here is a simple webpage that I created a while back that might be of some help.

http://www.hawkfish.org/infoctr/homebuffer.htm

Doug

06/18/2003, 09:54 PM

Originally posted by chriss
Doug,
I just wanted to point out that Tropic Marin Bio-Calcium increases alk. If you want to just increase ca, use calcium chloride instead. I know it doesn't state this on the container (I use it also), but according to my test kits and RFH it is a balanced additive.

Chris

Thanks Chris.

I didn't know that about the Bio-Calcium and appreciate the info.

I ended up installing a Calcium reactor on my 90g tank since the calcium load in my tank kept increasing with the addition of more SPS corals.

Thanks again.

scorpio241

06/19/2003, 06:18 AM

Originally posted by Doug
<img src="/images/welcome.gif" width="500" height="62"> <big><big>To Reef Central</big></big>

The correct formula is 6 parts baking soda to one part washing soda.

Here is a simple webpage that I created a while back that might be of some help.

http://www.hawkfish.org/infoctr/homebuffer.htm

Great thanks so much

JEMichael IV

12/28/2003, 04:17 AM

Probably a stupid question but when you say 6 parts to 1 part is that a certain amount or can it be 6 cups to 1 cup or 6 oz to 1 oz?

Just verifying. Thanks

Frick-n-Frags

12/28/2003, 06:49 AM

Use whatever measuring units you wish, just keep the ratio 6:1.

So 6 cups to 1 cup or 6 grams to 1 gram all works.

This needs some more confusion :D
I found that I was having chronic high pH issues because I dose kalk which has much higher pH than even washing soda, so I had to eliminate the washing soda from my buffer formula.

The pH of baking soda seems to want to be about 8.0 which chills out the kalk. (7.0 is neutral, so it still fizzes vinegar at pH 8.0. Our tanks are somewhat basic) Now my pH hangs around the 8.1-8.3 range very nicely. It still goes up a little during the day, but I have a ton of algae making a ton of oxygen, so it makes sense.

JEMichael IV

12/28/2003, 05:53 PM

Yes thanks Frick-n-Frags! I mixed it up and dosed according to the teaspoon per 25 gallons on the website for the first time 2 1/2 hours ago. I did a test and it did bring my alk up 1.2 dkh. I want to dose again to bring it up some more, but how long should I wait or does it matter? PH is stable at 8.33 currently.

ALK was at 7.8 and now is at 9. I would like to get it to 10-11 but dont know how long I should wait between dosing or if it even matters.

Thanks
John

Bomber

12/28/2003, 05:58 PM

This may be a silly question but why are you guys running all over God's creation trying to get washing soda when you can just bake baking soda in the oven and you get washing soda?

Mutagen

12/28/2003, 06:41 PM

Wow, somebody really dredged deep for this old thread.

Bomber, I neglected to mention this way back when but its even EASIER than baking the stuff. All you need to do is mix the baking soda in (Tap or DI) water in a glass and let it sit for a couple of hours. The pH will rise all by itself. If you're impatient, just nuke it in the micro-wave for 30-40 seconds. I continue to be amazed at how many people still buy the "prepared buffer formulations".

Mutagen

JEMichael IV

12/28/2003, 09:11 PM

Hey Mutagen do you think you can give me any suggestions on how long I should wait till I buffer the tank again? Are there any limitations besides watching the ph, alk and cal levels?

Mutagen

12/29/2003, 08:11 PM

Hi JEMicheal,

I'm not entirely sure I understand the reason for your question. Adding buffer is generally an ongoing job and one should consider buffer and alkalinity synonymous. Add at a rate that it is depleted as measured by your alkalinity test kit. But you already knew that, so maybe you are thinking of something else?

Mutagen

JEMichael IV

12/29/2003, 09:10 PM

Hi Mutagen, what I ment was I just doesed my tank and tested it a few hours later and it did increase. I didnt know if I could buffer it again then or if I should wait 24 hours till the next buffer. For example BIONIC states to buffer every 24 hours. That is what I ment. :)

Russel

03/15/2007, 02:35 PM

what a great thread! can't wait to share this with some freinds!

JeffDubya

10/09/2007, 10:43 PM

This is an excellent thread. An excellent thread that makes me feel like a complete moron. I'm terrible with chemistry, I don't understand this stuff as well as I should, but here's the deal: I have low pH and I would really like to fix it!

So here are the stupid idiot questions. Please, no open mocking. Mocking via PM is allowed provided I am not included in the discussion. :)

OK, so my first question has to do this homebrew pH buffer. If it's this easy, then I am never buying it again. I really love supporting SeaChem, but not if I don't have to. I have a few questions specifically related to that.

(1.) Washing soda. Nope, can't get it here. Tried 3 hardware stores and 4 grocery stores. Every customer service person I recruited for assistance... and my WIFE... looked at me like I was from another planet. So, I'm now thinking about another source for sodium bicarbonate. Someone mentioned earlier that pool and spa chemicals were sodium carbonate, and they sure were correct. 97% sodium carbonate and 3% of who knows what. Has anyone else used pool and spa chemicals in their VERY EXPENSIVE INVESTMENT OF A REEF TANK before? The thought kinda freaks me out, as illustrated by my obnoxious use of all caps.

(2.) If sodium carbonate raises pH, and sodium bicarbonate (baking soda) lowers pH, why are we using both? or when we say “buffer” pH, are we not really talking about “raising” it? The pH of my water is notoriously low. I don’t know why. With my hot tub, I ALWAYS have to add sodium carbonate when I add new water. With my fish tanks, my other parameters are practically perfect, but the pH is low. I am always around 7.9 to 8.1 and I want to get it up to around 8.3. If all I am doing is trying to RAISE my pH, can I use sodium carbonate by itself? AND will the stuff I have for my spa work without nuking my livestock?

(3.) I am adding a calcium reactor. Will all of this discussion be a moot point?

Eventually I will get all of this. And maybe write the “Water Chemistry for Dummies” text. Maybe.