700 gallon tank, or how i spent my daughters inheritance

[BlueCorn]

This thread has been split. The original thread is here:

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=15135699#post15135699

[Reefski's]

the crab will die. Ron Shimek suggests the most humane way to kill it is in the freezer.

i have 5 overflows and made two of them into siphons, two into open channels, and one into an overlfow. it is quiet until both of the surges fire at the same time and 100 gallons goes into the tank in 30 seconds. then the overflow gets overwhelmed.
before i made one of the internal overflows a siphon.
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/th_surgeintocenterwithflow-1.jpg (http://s93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/?action=view&current=surgeintocenterwithflow-1.flv)

the overflow one now has a Melev silencer on it and it is almost silent when both fire simultaneously.
[URL=http://s93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/?action=view&current=surgesiphonbothfiringwithMelevsilen.flv]
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/DSC09894-1.jpg
with just one surge firing. wow, what a difference.

if i was building my tank again i would put in a longer external overflow and more open channels. if my tank did not have the surges it would be dead silent. there is a bit of bubbling sound just before the surges fire and water sounds from the surge rushing across the tank as you can hear in the above video.

now if only i could figure out why i can't grow any Acros i will be a happy guy.

Carl


thanks Bean

[Reefski's]

somehow this didn't get in the post above. software glitch with RC. i understand you will have to resubscribe to get updates.

you can only really hear it when they both fire simultaneously which is only a couple times an hour if that. thank you Marc and BeanAnimal. the camera mic makes it sound much louder than it is. and from outside the tank closet it is quieter yet. the water level rises about 2.5" in a few seconds, and as you can see touches the bottom of the cross bracing. i had to decrease the amount a few gallons to keep it from rising higher. less per firing, more frequent.

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/th_surgesiphonbothfiringwithMelevsilen.jpg (http://s93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/?action=view&current=surgesiphonbothfiringwithMelevsilen.flv)

now if i can only figure out why i can't keep Acropora alive, at least most of them i'll be a happy reefer.

Carl

[Bax]

I've kept "bad" crabs in special returning parts of my sump where I want hem to eat everything they can grab. They do a pretty good job!

I feel you on wanting to see bid opportunities come in, I am in a home/commercial property sale driven business and it's very slow.

[Reefski's]

my wife and i were just talking and she said it's like i'm retired, work wise, only i have no pension and owe a lot of money every month. so i do all the errands, shopping etc. and i have time to work on the tank and worry .

[Ed Reef]

Congrat's on your yet another split...!!

[da5speed]

Love the surge system. One day i dream to have a room built around a tank like yours

[da5speed]

By the way it took me 5 days to read your thread from work (shows how hard i work lol) and I think my coworker thinks were all nuts with reef syndrome haha

[Reefski's]

has anyone ever done any experiments to see if PO4 really leaches from rock after being in systems with high PO4?

i have had several tanks that have had high PO4, like >3.0ppm and maybe much more.

i have also gotten rock from other reefers and don't know what their systems were like.

my PO4 continues to be high. my system has been set up for over a year now. i have a powerful skimmer, and a lot of macroalgae in one of the system tanks.
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_1304.jpg

my nitrates have always been around 5ppm.

i use a Hanna C200 photometer to measure with.

i have a deep sand bed in the tank and in some of the sump tanks as well.

i am currently keeping it under 0.20ppm with daily or every other day dosing of lanthanum chloride.

it can rise 0.20 in a couple of days.

i can't believe that just feeding alone will do that.

since phosphates rise so quickly in my system i wonder if this idea would show what is happening.

drop PO4 to zero with Lanthanum Chloride.

don't feed for several days and measure PO4 daily.

what would that prove if levels keep rising or if they don't?

if it does leach out of the rock i imagine eventually it will reach an equilibrium where other export mechanisms will control it and i won't have to use LC.

Carl

[Reefski's]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15141396#post15141396 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by da5speed
By the way it took me 5 days to read your thread from work (shows how hard i work lol) and I think my coworker thinks were all nuts with reef syndrome haha

thanks, what kind of job do you have that you can read for five days?

other reefers use me as an example to show their significant others that they are not crazy.

Carl

[Reefski's]

i put the crab back in the sump. i figure it can't harm anything there and is obviously finding enough to eat.

i couldn't do it. i brought it upstairs to put in the freezer after showing it to the family and they were like oh, don't kill it. so i didn't.


Carl

[Mr. Brooks]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15163196#post15163196 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Reefski's
i put the crab back in the sump. i figure it can't harm anything there and is obviously finding enough to eat.

i couldn't do it. i brought it upstairs to put in the freezer after showing it to the family and they were like oh, don't kill it. so i didn't.


Carl


Good man.

[melev]

Sleep with one eye open, Carl. :lol:

[Reefski's]

i am more worried about the giant bristleworms in the display tank.
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/DSC00129.jpg

the crab is back in the first bin of the sumps. there is little likelyhood of it making its's way into the next bin and impossible to get to the display tank.

i wonder how big they can get. i will have to ask Ron Shimek.

Carl

[melev]

Any giant worms are pulled out of my display. Usually they go in the refugium, unless they are bright orange. Those go in the trash. ;)

[Reefski's]

i have never seen any large orange ones in my system. only the smaller tan/orange ones and the ones like the one above. they are a blue in the middle and pink/red on the edges. the picture is crappy to show the colors.

i cleaned out 5 gallons of macro algae from the refugium today and there were a dozen or so of the ones above but they were only about 5-6". i left them in the tank.

[BigJay]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15167601#post15167601 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Reefski's

the crab is back in the first bin of the sumps. there is little likelyhood of it making its's way into the next bin and impossible to get to the display tank.

i wonder how big they can get. i will have to ask Ron Shimek.

Carl

Personally I wouldn't kill the crab or keep it in my sump for long. I would ask my local reef club if anyone keeps a pet mantis shrimp or a puffer fish and give it to them.

[Reefski's]

that might have been a good idea but it is too late now. i am a club member and we are having a meeting on saturday. i have no idea if anyone has a shrimp toi feed it to.

where it is in the sump is very inaccessible as the opening is only about 5" and the bin is filled with lots of live rock.

Carl

[Reefski's]

i may have gotten closer to solving my continuing problems with PO4 and not being able to keep most acros alive.

my top off water is made with a large Kati Ani DI unit. i have only started using a prefilter which consists of 25 micron, 1 micron, and Activated Carbon filters.

even after recharging my TDS levels were 6-10ppm PO4 in the newly made water were 0.08ppm.

well, i forgot i was filling the top off rubbermaid container and ran an unknown amount of water down the driveway from the water overflowing the rubbermaid. this little mistake exhausted the media.

i needed top off water so i thought how bad can it be putting 10-15 gallons into 1700 gallons and i used it for about three days until i had time to recharge the DI canisters.

PO4 levels in the tank shot up faster than normal and some acros that i had had for months died.

i reread the manual on recharging the DI unit and discovered i had been doing it wrong all along. i was only using half as much HCl as i should have been.

once i did it properly my TDS level out of the unit is 1ppm and PO4 is 0.00ppm for the first time ever.

another piece of the problem puzzle may be seen below.
After reading Eric's comments about metal in his tank http://forum.marinedepot.com/Topic98745-9-1.aspx

i went to add MgCl for the first time in a few weeks and realized that although this scoop was not in the tank it was corroded from being stored in the MgCl. i have been using this scoop for a long time for all the additives and just recently got a plastic one for NaCO3 and CaCl.

i was still using this one below for the MgCl and MgSO4. i have no idea what it is made from but it is definitely leaching metal that would be going into the tank. the monticap bleaching episode happened just after changing sand, water and adding a lot of Mg using this scoop.

hmmm...
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_1338.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_1339.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_1341.jpg

i just started running a polyfilter today. no doubt not enough for my water volume but still better than nothing. i am also changing out 3 pints of AC every 3-4 days. the water is very clear.

i hope changing these two things will make a difference. it is still too early to tell.

[melev]

I'm glad to hear that you may have found a couple of potential problems. So you're saying that reading the manual is a good idea? :D

The hardest part is making corrections on a huge system. Yours is very likely double or more what mine is (which I tend to think is around 400g gross) and it was really hard fixing PO4 problems in the past. The expense of solving these problems can be daunting, I know. Hang in there.

[Reefski's]

thanks Marc, it is really frustrating when i look at your tank and compare to mine i just want to cry. so i really appreciate your encouragement.

i think my total water volume is about 1700 gallons.

i am not giving up although i am not buying any acros for a while.

the sad part is i did read the manual each time i did the recharging and i was a math major in high school. now i need to find that new AC cartridge so i can change it too.


Carl

[melev]

Aw man... don't let it get you down. I just read that three page thread on Marine Depot that you linked, and got a quicker overview of your tank even though I've been following this thread for some time now. Keep in mind my tank is almost 5 years old. I've seen much prettier tanks that weren't as old as mine, and I'm sure there are very good reasons for that. Younger tanks go through all kinds of swings, and your tinkering can be a negative versus keeping your hands out of the tank.

1700g - wow. That's a lot of water.

Salt - If you are going to go that route and make your own, you do have the cost to consider of making RO/DI water. I think your Kati/Ani system won't work out so well for tap water unfortunately, but that is your call. The bad thing is the 4:1 ratio using an RO system. I've used Kent, Oceanic, Instant Ocean, and Red Sea Pro Reef. I'll never use IO again, and I had a bad nine months with Oceanic when it first came out. A few years ago, Kent had a bad batch that went out nationally, and many tanks took a huge hit. The salt lacked alkalinity in a big way. Kent sent me new buckets to replace the bad ones, but told me I could keep the old and just buffer up the alkalinity. I still have them to this day, clearly marked so if I do use them, I'll remember to add baked baking soda first. I was actually doing that with a couple of barrels I made up, because the pH was measuring so low - I didn't even know the problem extended to anyone else until a LFS in Arkansas called me up and asked about it, and linked me to a thread here on RC. The other salt I've been using for a few years is Red Sea Pro. I like it. It dissolves well, and the numbers are good.

No matter what brand of salt you use, each time you open a new bucket you need to measure the normal stuff to make sure it is a good batch. This is just a good practice to be in. With your system, every bucket would probably be used in its entirety, since you'll probably mix up 160 to 200g at a time. For my system, I make up 55g at a time, which means a bucket lasts about 3 water changes (or six months - LOL). I know I don't change water as fast as others, and now that I just bought that 250g reservoir, I might try changing more frequently to see if my reef suddenly surprises me. Not that it really has room for a growth spurt, but it would be nice to see some corals get bigger finally.

The concrete pads in your reef - I've seen it done before, and I don't know that it is a problem that you have to worry about now. Usually any concrete stuff that we make or use is soaked in fresh water for 6 weeks or so, to make sure the pH is stable (and end any spikes). That would be a good time to measure PO4 as well. Since you did this a year ago, it might be pointless but if you happen to still have one of those you could do a test just to get peace of mind. Whatever it might have had in the concrete before would have leached out by now, especially with you using PO4 removers as you have.

I didn't expect the Vodka discussion to go well over there - LOL - but you probably never hit that magic level where it makes the difference. Remember, it took my tank 7 months to hit the number where the nitrates dropped finally. At 11 months now, NO3 continues to measure 0, I'm happy to say. The birdsnest in my tank never looked this good.

The resistance to using Lanthanum chloride seems to not be unusual. I was surprise that the Dallas World Aquarium doesn't use it, for example. Eric's comments indicate that he's not on board with it either, at least for now. Dosing it in the display in an area of high flow is what I've done in the past, but I've also simply dripped it into the return section of my sump. Within a few minutes the entire system looks a bit cloudy. The only coral that doesn't like it are the Lavendar Frilly mushrooms, and a day later they seem back to normal. I also dose it late at night when the fish are at rest, as I do think it can't be good for their gills. Swimming through it actively versus just resting; I tend to hope that less activity means less respiration and hopefully avoid doing them any damage.

[Reefski's]

thank you for your thoughtful answer.

i'm not quite ready yet to give up on the NSW, at least as long as i have a truck to go get it in. i have tried to sell the truck for the past few weeks and NO inquires at all.

i am thinking of putting an RO in the line of the filters. i can always use the waste water in my yard.

can i buy just the RO part and plumb it inline after the prefilters and before the DI?

i am redesigning the turf filter to hopefully use water i have already pumped, ie, no more electricity to use it and only lighting.

the LC gets dripped into a 1 or 5 micron sock in the sump and if i drip it slowly never clouds the water and all stays in the sock for easy removal.

[matt & pam]

You might consider talking to water filter company that manages dialysis centers. There was a thread on here several years ago about someone who had a maintainance company handling huge DI filters for his tank. Perhaps one of these companies could help in a cost effective way to filtering larger amounts of water without the waste of a RO filter. You can easily find a company near you by calling some dialysis centers around town and find out who manages their water.

Matt

[melev]

Yes, since you have the prefilters and the DI, you definitely could install the RO membrane section between them. Also, considering the size of your system, it might be better for you to use 20" filters instead of 10" filters. Most LFS have RO systems with 20" filters because of the amount of water they make daily.

Have you ever determined your daily evaporation?

Dosing LC in the sock is working for you, and if you see the PO4 drop in the system, by all means continue. If it doesn't, it might be better to dose the tank instead. The Atlantis Aquarium on the east coast doses it into one of their enormous skimmers.

[Reefski's]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15193586#post15193586 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by matt & pam
You might consider talking to water filter company that manages dialysis centers. There was a thread on here several years ago about someone who had a maintainance company handling huge DI filters for his tank. Perhaps one of these companies could help in a cost effective way to filtering larger amounts of water without the waste of a RO filter. You can easily find a company near you by calling some dialysis centers around town and find out who manages their water.

Matt

that is an interesting idea but a bit daunting.

i can use the RO waste water in my yard. i would not just run it down the drain.

[Reefski's]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15193842#post15193842 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by melev
Yes, since you have the prefilters and the DI, you definitely could install the RO membrane section between them. Also, considering the size of your system, it might be better for you to use 20" filters instead of 10" filters. Most LFS have RO systems with 20" filters because of the amount of water they make daily.

Have you ever determined your daily evaporation?

Dosing LC in the sock is working for you, and if you see the PO4 drop in the system, by all means continue. If it doesn't, it might be better to dose the tank instead. The Atlantis Aquarium on the east coast doses it into one of their enormous skimmers.

the 20" seems like the way to go. i will investigate that tomorrow.

my daily evaporation is about 10-15 gallons.

the sock works great. drops the level right down in a few hours as it drips in. the sock is in the sump under one of the siphon returns to the sump.

the LC never actually makes it into the system, there is a nice precipitate that forms in the sock.

lighting update-

i ordered a new bulb for the 400 watt DE bulb in the display tank. it was a 14K bulb that was about two years old. it was putting out about 150 PAR at 12" underwater. the new bulb is the IceCap 10K bulb. it is putting out about 650-700 PAR at 12" underwater and 1350 PAR at the water surface 12" under the lamp. what a difference.

i also changed an old 10K SE bulb on the garage tank. it was putting out 350 PAR a few inches underwater. the new 14K bulb is only producing 150 PAR at the same depth. i'll be using the old bulb again until i can get a new 10K bulb. i don't care for the blue look anyway, especially if it is going to decrease the good light for my critters.

[porthios]

glad to see you tracked (at least part of) that po4 problem down. those kati/ani instructions confused me a few times as well. i'm using 20" canisters on my setup atm and am very happy with them.

i've mentioned this before i know but it really is easy to test po4 leeching from any suspect block/rock/etc.. just throw it in a bucket of sw, measure po4, wait a bit and test again. no need to spend effort wondering when it'd be so easy for you to know for sure.. jmho.

[Reefski's]

thank you Jason. i am glad i am not the only one that had a problem with the instructions. that isn't quite right but it is comforting to know i am not alone.

i put a block in SW and after a couple of days it didn't read any higher but the water i put it in was already high. i should do it again.

Carl

[Reefski's]

i like to say i am a lot smarter than my wife, after all i picked her... i am the head of the family but she is the neck and whichever way the neck turns...

Happy fathers day all!

Carl

[Reefski's]

no improvement and actually a worsening. some corals i have had for months have RTN'd and a couple of LPS that have never had a problem are losing tissue. i wonder if those are from the much higher water flow. it is the leading edge into the surge that is affected.

i will be able to post some pix tomorrow.
PO4 still is rising every three days or so to 0.15-0.18 and then i treat with LC. so something in my system is leaching or producing PO4. i don't think i am feeding that much to make it rise so quickly just from the food.

i had not done a water change until yesterday after the DI correction. i wanted to not do too many changes. although i did add MgCl which i had not done in a few weeks just about the time the new RTN event started. i wonder if it could be a contaminant in the MgCl, or the top off water. it could still be contamination from the scoop in the MgCl.

even though it seems like i have solved the top off water problem, PO4 0.0 and tds 1ppm, i wonder if i should still get a RO membrane to run. am i still adding something in the top off water that is not good?

i am using up the end of the NSW this week and will switch to ASW at least for a while to see if there is a difference.

it is the first day of summer today and there is plenty of light in the tank.

i am very frustrated.

[FOSELONE]

hi...id like to know the dimensions of your tank please...glass or acrylic...& who made it ???
thanks...

[Reefski's]

96x48x36 acrylic made by SoCalCreations. they are not in business anymore.

[Reefski's]

here are some depressing pictures of some more dying corals.

this one has been in my tank for over a year.
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_1420.jpg

this one bleached within a couple of days. i had had it for about 3 months.
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_1409.jpg

this one i have had for many months.
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_1411.jpg

i have had this one for many months, it was the first Acro in my tank.
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_1413.jpg

and yet this one is still growing and seemingly fine.
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_1421.jpg

even some LPS corals are affected.
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_1412.jpg
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_1364.jpg

others seem unaffected.
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_1425.jpg

there are others both good and bad that i don't have pictures of.

i am in the process of changing out the last 500 gallons of NSW this week. i have not done a water change in about 2 months i am in the process of changing out the last 500 gallons of NSW this week.

i have not done a water change in about 2 months while i was trying to figure out what is wrong. this recent round happened with DI filter not working and tap water being used for top off. i don't know if that was the total problem or not. i hope so but the top off water has been corrected for a couple of weeks and some of these have bleached since then.

i do notice a real lack of pods and other small crustaceans in all the tanks. i can understand in the display tank because of the various fish, mandarin, copperband butterfly, two hawkfish, six line wrasse. but i would think there would be a plethora in the other tanks which have a higher water volume than the DT.


Carl

[melev]

:(

When Steve Weast was trying to save his tank, he used some tap water (200g) and dechlorinator and it still ended up being the Tank Of Death. The tap water surely didn't help your situation.

Have you been watching the PAR values over the past month? Now that we are officially in summer again, could it be that the tank is getting a huge increase in light?

What's the water temperature been lately? You've mentioned that it can swing quite a bit, something I would try to avoid. You mentioned Dr. Ron's stance on how those swings are in nature and not a big deal, but I still tend to think they aren't good for our livestock. After all, where those large swings occur, those corals are used to it, while our tanks tend to have corals from differing oceans and climates that may not tolerate those ups and downs.

Also, where those temperature swings occur, who's verifying that some corals aren't being adversely affected? We know of the 20+ coral types we have in our tank, but in nature are the researchers tracking those like we do in our tanks, or are they merely getting those readings and perhaps not noticing any losses? I don't know the answer to that.

[Reefski's]

i think the tap water is a huge bad influence. i really want to get an RO membrane but Pam says no money for that right now.

we have had June Gloom here and most of the month has been overcast much if not all of the day. Marine influence.

i have been running the halides until noon, two 400 watt 10K bulbs on a light mover. that is keeping it bright in the tank but then when the sun does come out it is MUCH brighter.

air temps have only been in the high 60's and low 70's. right now at 1:30pm air temp is 70.

tank temps do not vary much more that a degree per day.

right now the tank is at 82.3 which will be the high today. the ocean temp in the Philippines is up to 86 now.

the sun is out yesterday and today and PAR values have been up to 1500 over the course of the day for a few hours.

i did have a Favia bleach or at least get very light at the brightest end of the tank. it hasn't recovered at the shadier end of the tank which still gets very bright reflected light but not directly down the shaft.
it also lost some tissue when i moved it from the rockwork onto the sandbed for a few days.
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_1371.jpg

i wonder about corals from other tank acclimating to the higher light intensity but the ones that bleached have been with me for many months mostly and were, are have survived other episodes.

maybe it is just the tap water.

this one is now in more direct sun, at least the part that is bleaching. maybe a combination of high light and whatever else is going on. the part a couple inches away in the shade is looking fine.
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_0698.jpg

[Reefski's]

the DI filter was recharged just a couple hundred gallons ago. it is already putting out 8-10ppm tds and 0.11 PO4 and who know what else.

i have ordered an RO membrane to add to the system and will not be adding any top off water until i can do so safely. hopefully it will come tomorrow.
salinity probably won't change that much in a few days.

i am very hopeful that the problem all along has been the quality of the top off water.

i thought the DI unit would remove everything from the water and i didn't need an RO unit but i don't believe that is true any more. i thought it was ecofriendly with no waste water. i will be putting the waste line to the yard now.

i have had this Elegance coral for about three years. i am very bummed out that it is dying.

if i get the water quality under control do you think it can recover? should i cut it through the skeleton to cut off the dead/dying part?

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_1500.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_1501.jpg

today is only the second day since i stopped adding top off water to the system. i am sure it can make it a few days without top off until i get the RO unit. hopefully it will come tomorrow and i can install it on saturday.

PO4 this afternoon was only 0.04ppm

i will measure the Nitrates on the tap water. i haven't done that.

[kinlayan]

did you add any polyfilters or heavy metal removal resins to see if that would help with your corals?

[kinlayan]

also are only hard corals being affected what about softies? could this be white pox disease?

[Reefski's]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15263557#post15263557 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kinlayan
did you add any polyfilters or heavy metal removal resins to see if that would help with your corals?

only a small piece of purigen poly filter a week ago. not enough for a system my size. it doesn't say how big a system it is for but it is supposed to last a month.

i have stepped up the amount and frequency of carbon changing. i have been using about 3 pints and changing it every 4-5 days. i was putting it in a 100 micron filter sock a couple of days ago i changed the setup to run through a fluidized bed canister.

only the stony corals and recently a couple of chalices and acans a bit and the Elegance. see the photos above.

what is white pox disease?

Carl

[finfans]

this site took three days to read But it was worth it

[Reefski's]

three days, wow, i hope people can learn from my mistakes, and successes too. so far more failure than success, at least that is how it feels right now.

today i just got all the parts to hook a RO membrane into my top off water production system. let's see what that does for water quality.


Carl

[kinlayan]

http://www.pnas.org/content/99/13/8725.full
some info on this disease , it may not be what is affecting your corals it may just be high PO4 and nitrates but it could also be a strain of this perhaps?

[Reefski's]

some really good news and some bad news today.

first off my Solar system made 60 KW today.

i got the RO unit hooked into the water purification system and changed all the prefilters.

so now the mains water is filtered through 25 micron, 1 micron, AC, RO, and finally separate Kati Ani Di units.

tds out of the RO before DI is 14ppm.
for the first time ever coming out of the DI is Zero
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/tdszero6-27-09.jpg
yeah!

after 4 days of no top off water the system salinity was 0.0265 as best i could read the refractometer. i have started to add the new RO/DI water to the system it is about 50 gallons down.

after 4 days of no top off water addition and no Lanthanum Chloride use the PO4 tested at 0.0

i still can't quite believe it. i will retest again in the morning.

now i will start using ASW for a while and see if that makes a difference as well and keep changing the AC regularly.

the bad news is it may have come too late for the Elegance Coral.

the Elegance has totally separated from it's skeleton.
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_1528.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_1526.jpg

it's kind of like some of my teachers said about me when i was in school, great potential but not living up to the promise. maybe that will change now. how long might it take to see it turn around?

[melev]

I just don't know Carl.

You may keep the Elegance near or on the skeleton or some other rock rubble, in a container where it can't blow away. Maybe you'll get lucky and part of it will attach to something.

Have you taken a water sample and asked Ali to verify your readings?

[Reefski's]

in the next couple of weeks i will be getting a water sample tested with AWT, Aquarium Water Testing service.

i would have thought if the elegance was going to separate from it's skeleton it would have been when it was in the higher flow in the display tank. it has been in the lower flow of the garage tank for a few weeks now.

no tissue has been lost yet, just separated from the skeleton.

Carl

[melev]

Time to bug Eric. He did a study of this particular coral and would be the person I would ask.

[tas5tas]

All those tiny bubbles on your liverock and corals looks like a bad dino outbreak to me.

[Steve1714]

Hay Carl,
Thanks for the tour of the system today, Yep there is allot of potential with that setup, unfortunately you have suffered form 2 possibly 3 major septate and combined events that have presented you with quite a challenge to solve exactly what happened.
I was thinking over all that we disused about your system and events that may have triggered the problems;

I have made the fallowing list of potential problems I saw, I know not all hobbyists will agree with me and there may be some that think the exact opposite, as for my background in this most if not all of my experience has come from running a 1000-1200 gallon outdoor coral farm since 1998, and all the problems that came with such a setup. I am not a scientist and I will not argue if you disagree, think of this as “brain storming� for the potential problems that occurred and there posible solution, all to help out my good friend Carl.
Carl, I know you know allot of this already, but for those who don't I have tried to cover every possible thing to look at..

first off, I think you have solved 80-90% of the systems problems with the RO unit lowering the TDS to 12ppm, this also slowed the flow of water through the DI resin to allow it enough contact time to completely remove the remaining pollutants. All you need to do now is just keep your TDS at 0.

1) One issue i think that needs to be addressed is the flow in between the powerful surges, it seems to be this, that allowed the junk that got kicked up from changing out the sand bed to settle on the corals and injure the already stressed tissue (caused from the spikes of PO4 and other tap water chemicals that got into the system from the malfunction of the stand alone DI filter) Now, you have more than enough water moving through the system, it is just the way it is too dispersed and not used effectively, Try experimenting with reducers and some elbows to speed up the flow out of the nozzles and point them into an area of large water volume in such a way to circulate the water around that center overflow in the tank. Not to brag but my whole 600gallon tank / system is circulated by a mere 25gallons a minute pushed through a 1/2" diameter nozzle, all be it, this nozzle is the output of a 1 1/2" mixing eductor that multiplies the water moved by a factor of 5 or 125GPM of flow.

2) Another thing is to check your calculations on the amount and concentration of lanthum chloride you have been using and make sure it wasn't overdosed, in the case of overdosing, it could possibly cause some sort of adverse synthetically low level of PO4 in the system much like that seen from using too much GFO for the first time, or vodka or zeovit, which can cause some if not all SPS to lighten or bleach out. You may have also over dosed the buffer and this could have caused the tips on the SPS to burn and possible tissue loss on the monti-caps so check those numbers also.

3) Another possibility based on the fact that most of the SPS that died or lost the most tissue were also in areas that got the most intense light from the summer sun, this could be due to the internal overheating due to periods of low to stagnant flow coupled with the strong brown pigmentation due to the higher than normal PO4 levels. Increased flow and the lowering of the PO4 levels would reduce the chances of this to happen.

4)that copper Hose fitting connected from the storage tank to the system, possible copper contamination due to flakes of hose fitting corroding and falling into the water during the water change. Even though this metal is not in contact with the water 24/7 it still gets intermittent contact with salt water and has the potential to cause a problem, I would replace it with plastic and eliminate the danger. The pump being a koi pond pump is probably not a problem, however it may be a good idea to open the volute and check for signs of corrosion if you want to be certain.

5) this one is kinda of a long shot but something to think about, Your water change may have introduced a nasty hydroid or disease into the system from the NSW, this probably multiplied exponentially due to the high nutrient levels in the system acting as another irritant to the corals tissue. If you want to continue using this NSW a quick solution would be to do something to sterilize it as you are doing the water change by slowly running it through a powerful UV sterilizer or ozone reactor and then carbon before it inters the system.

6) possible pH issues, try to barrow someones pH meeter and check the values at different times of the day and during the addition of any buffers or other suspect chemicals. Always be careful and slowly add buffers to an area of high flow away from corals. Run the light over that tank in the garage with all the plants in it 24 hr a day, this will help reduce the nutrients and stabilize the pH. If you are worried about the other fish not sleeping in the near by tank just put up a partition or reflective sheet to block the light from hitting there tank. The skimmer in my opinion doesn't have a large enough reaction chamber for a system of your size. This could cause problems in that it cannot blow off the excess of CO2 in the water fast enough thus leading to chronic low pH. If possible at least try to pipe in fresh outside air to the air intakes on your existing skimmer. As far as the nutrient export of that skimmer it will be sufficient if the internal neck is cleaned more often and the fact you have cut off the continuous supply of pollutants entering the system from the top off water.
7)As for the idea of connecting that 1200 gallon storage tank to the system to help stabilize it by increasing the water volume from 1700 gallons to almost 3000 gallons, I think it is a bad idea. That tank is not insulated and is buried in the ground this could lead to having to use allot of heaters in the winter, you will need allot more chemicals to make changes, Water changes would haft to be twice the size they are now to make any impact. Your skimmer would defiantly be undersized, as would your calcium reactor(when you start using it again). It would further complicate an already complex setup.

8)Get grounding probes in those tanks, and GFCI outlets on all potential electrical hazards. You may have an accident like a halide fixture falling in the water and if that happened you don't want the current to run through you and then trip the GFCI or worse run through you and eventually trip the circuit breaker, especially with those play-full dogs running around that can be very clumsy.

I think that covers most of it, don't be discouraged by this list for if I were to list the good things you have designed into the system already that list would be a hundred page novel. Most of the things listed above are simply minor adjustments and won't tank much time or effort to do.

the next few months things will start to recover and before you know it you will be writing up a summery for TOTM.
just take it slow and be patient in correcting system parameters.

Steve G

[melev]

Hey Steve, thanks for chiming in. I love your green house tank that you built.

I never thought about pH the entire time I was there; it isn't a parameter I worry about with my own system and that could be a good call.

Cleaning the skimmer is something I think everyone should do often. I know Carl wants to get away from it entirely, but I believe they are a huge asset to a tank. If something goes wrong, they are there as an emergency safety net, imo. Feeding it fresh air via some tubing does work, as others have done it - especially on the east coast where it is so cold for many months; they have to seal their homes tight and the pH drops with the CO2 buildup within.

Copper/brass fittings - any and all should be removed. I didn't see that one, but completely agree.

Grounding probes & GFCI outlets - good idea. Carl, if you watch Ebay, you can buy a bunch of the outlets cheaply. A few years ago, I bought 10 or 12 of them for $80 shipped. They are the kind with a small green LED light on the face so you know the outlet is live. Buying them at Home Depot will run about $20 each. A ground probe in each container is a very good way to keep yourself safe. You can even make them yourself with wiring, and a titanium bicycle spoke. The titanium rod goes in the water, a single strand of wire (18 gauge) goes to the ground screw of the coverplate or to the ground prong of a three pronged outlet. The other prongs are simply ignored. The ground screw is the cheapest solution.

Steve really looked hard at your system, which is great. He may have nailed the issue with the flow, low flow, and sandbed changes, coupled with your water problems. When I was there, I was really impressed with what I saw, but I didn't really try to know what you were doing specifically. Since you liked using NSW and I know others in CA do, I don't have any reason to think it is a bad idea; I don't have any experience with that whatsoever as I'm landlocked with high-priced buckets of salt. :D I buy them when they are on sale or the LFS has a anniversary event, or try to win them at club events whenever possible.

The same thing goes for making your own water with Kati/Ani. Odds are there is a flow rate that you must follow, but it isn't something I know anything about. I do have a friend that sells it, but that's all I know about it. Running it after the RO system at the slow rate of 1g every 14 mins (100gpd) sounds like it will work much more effectively.

This is why I'm so glad Steve went over to help you isolate the problems. When I was there, I was your guest and got to see how you run your tank. You are doing things much differently than I do, but that doesn't mean you aren't doing it correctly. In this hobby, there are many ways to accomplish the same thing, so I was trying to learn from your setup why it works and how it works. This is the primary reason I wouldn't tell you to do things differently. That being said, as problems surfaced over the past month or so, I wanted try to help you solve them if I could.

Like Steve said, your system is different and he's probably right: it needs a few tweaks to get it working great again.

Btw, have you been to his greenhouse set up yet? He uses shade cloth, where your system doesn't. Maybe you could do some PAR measurements over his corals to see what the differences may be.

[Reefski's]

update-

Steve--thank you so much for your insights and expertise. Steve has an amazing outside self contained coral bluehouse.
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_1618.jpg

Steve has very tame hand fed Vlamingi tangs and a few other fish. it is really all about the corals.
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_1542.jpg

since i got the tds levels to zero out of the ro/di unit the PO4 has been the lowest ever. i haven't used lanthanum chloride in two weeks.

post RO tds is 5-6 and 0 after the DI, yahoo.

the tank water has mostly tested about 0.08. but then three days ago went down to 0.05ppm and today tested at 0.04ppm.

to think most of the problems may have been the crappy top off water all along... that is fantastic now.

i also added elbows to some of the closed loop returns to direct the water in a more cyclonic fashion.

i have added a little egg crate to give a little more shade to the tank. Steve's system has lower PAR values than my tank.

i don't think the PH is an issue.

i maintain alkalinity with daily additions of soda carbonate or sodium bicarbonate.

pH stays about 8.4-8.5 and is very stable.

dKH is about 11.
Calcium 420
Magnesium 1350
i haven't measured nitrates in a couple of weeks. it was about 15-20
i guess this is the next thing to work on. i have not measured the city water for nitrates, i will do that tomorrow. the Hanna tester doesn't work on saltwater but will work on city water.

i am making ASW right now to swap out up to 400 gallons over the next couple weeks. that may help dilute anything that came in the top off water that i don't want and isn't measurable.

that does present a bit of a dilemma though. if things get better should i start using the NSW again? i really don't want to stop as it is soo much cheaper. but if it isn't good of course i will spend the money for ASW mix. but how will i know?

i am still running the skimmer and it is producing a dark green/black skimmate.

how do you know you need a skimmer? just because it takes out stuff doesn't mean if your tank is set up right all that stuff wouldn't become food for something in the tank. something that would grow and breed and feed the corals and fish and give more diversity to the system. i am still going to turn it off one of these days.

if your skimmer was turned off what would you measure to tell you you had a problem that the skimmer had been preventing? does that make sense?

as far as the CO2 and pH i have lots of air movement in the house and garage. my skimmer has four air intakes and there is no easy way to plumb the air intake to the outside.

i haven't seen stuff start to grow again though i think things have stopped dying.

the elegance is still with me. i am target feeding it daily. the tentacles are short but it appears helathy, it still has good color.

since i got the tds levels to zero out of the ro/di unit the PO4 has been the lowest ever. i haven't used lanthanum chloride in two weeks.

post RO tds is 5-6 and 0 after the DI, yahoo.

the tank water has mostly tested about 0.08. but then three days ago went down to 0.05ppm and today tested at 0.04ppm.

to think most of the problems may have been the crappy top off water all along... that is fantastic now.

i also added elbows to some of the closed loop returns to direct the water in a more cyclonic fashion.

i have added a little egg crate to give a little more shade to the tank. Steve's system has lower PAR values than my tank.

i don't think the PH is an issue.

i maintain alkalinity with daily additions of soda carbonate or sodium bicarbonate.

pH stays about 8.4-8.5 and is very stable.

dKH is about 11.
Calcium 420
Magnesium 1350
i haven't measured nitrates in a couple of weeks. it was about 10

i am making ASW right now to swap out up to 400 gallons over the next couple weeks. that may help dilute anything that came in the top off water that i don't want and isn't measurable.

that does present a bit of a dilemma though. if things get better should i start using the NSW again? i really don't want to stop as it is soo much cheaper. but if it isn't good of course i will spend the money for ASW mix. but how will i know?

i am still running the skimmer and it is producing a dark green/black skimmate.

how do you know you need a skimmer? just because it takes out stuff doesn't mean if your tank is set up right all that stuff wouldn't become food for something in the tank. something that would grow and breed and feed the corals and fish and give more diversity to the system. i am still going to turn it off one of these days.

if your skimmer was turned off what would you measure to tell you you had a problem that the skimmer had been preventing? does that make sense?

as far as the CO2 and pH i have lots of air movement in the house and garage. my skimmer has four air intakes and there is no easy way to plumb the air intake to the outside.

i haven't seen stuff start to grow again though i think things have stopped dying.

the elegance is still with me. i am target feeding it daily. the tentacles are short but it appears helathy, it still has good color.

Carl

[cougaran]

If i posted this before i apologize, i've been having computer internet connection problems...anyway, you should check the tap water for the possibility of copper. I use tap water in my tank and treat w/ water conditioner even though i have an ro/di system that i just havent gotten chance to put up...yet...I remember club members in my area saying make sure you test for copper before you use it or you'll wipe the whole tank. At worse check the tank for trace amounts of copper.

[Reefski's]

i am using RO?DI water now. i was only using DI which wasn't cutting it.

i got some new helpers to help with the grazing and aiptasia.
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_1681.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_1691.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_1711.jpg

an interesting thing, since the phosphates have decreased in the last two weeks, i have gotten some new algae growth i never had before. there are 3-4 patches like this. the tangs don't seem interested in it.
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_1628.jpg

this rock was long in the dark in the sump and when i put it in the DT a few weeks ago started getting a coating of algae. the tangs and urchins do like this algae. i stopped feeding any Nori as it seems they have enough algae in the tank to eat. they are constantly grazing on the rocks.
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_1624.jpg

PO4 is still 0.04
0 tds from RO/DI unit

[Reefski's]

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_1713.jpg

turning the flow has been good.
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_1625.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_1668.jpg

test coral
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_1670-1.jpg

it even came with a commensal crab.
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_1714.jpg

[Ed Reef]

Better to start getting a handle of your HA before it becomes out of hand. Removed them manually and try to used an old toothbrush to scrub that area.

Yeah, Tang don't seem to like HA - never found any fishes that likes them, come to think of it.

Alternative a Sea hare might help too

[Reefski's]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15327038#post15327038 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Ed Reef
Better to start getting a handle of your HA before it becomes out of hand. Removed them manually and try to used an old toothbrush to scrub that area.

Yeah, Tang don't seem to like HA - never found any fishes that likes them, come to think of it.

Alternative a Sea hare might help too

why now? my tank has been set up for over 18 months. it is not possible without a lot of work to get any of the rock out to scrub with a toothbrush.

i will check on getting a sea hare. they are cool. i had one as the first thing in the tank but it got sucked against the screen for the pump intake and died. now the screen is 4" instead of 2". they sea hare gave it's life for my education.

Carl

[Ed Reef]

No answer for you there but IME HA is a real pain!! Some tanks start getting them when they mature while some gets them in the beginning stage.


What's your PO4 and NO3 levels like?? Maybe your nutrients are high??

[MSX-Jeff]

Carl,

My guess on the HA is: PO4 has been high in the water column all this time, allowing algae to grow and PO4 to "bind" in the rocks. Up until now, there has been other algae outcompeteing the HA...thus no HA outbreak. HA is now growing on the rocks, using PO4 that is bound in them and is now being slowly released. The HA is using the PO4 as fast as it is being leached out, so other algae's will not compete with it for space.

FWIW, I've had luck with rabbitfishes eating HA. Check out the Blueline Rabbitfish....it has become one of my favorites lately, they are just beautiful IMO.

[melev]

Hey Carl, when I was at a LFS last week, he had "flying seahares"; he demonstrated several times, and they would fly across the tank with what looked like wings. It was nuts!

[Steve1714]

looking better Carl,
I think those green fluffy patches are bryopsis, I have seen it grow in tanks with PO4 lower than .01
Not to many things eat that kind of algae, If you see it spreading then you will want to do something about it. Other than that just keep all your numbers stable and give the tank some time to recover.

Steve G

[Reefski's]

wow, less than 0.01. my nitrates are high though, about 20ppm.

weird that it would start up now. maybe the high PO4 or fluctuating levels somehow inhibited it.

the foxface seems uninterested in it.

somebody should invent the underwater Dremel so that you could just go in and slice off the piece of rock you don't want in the tank anymore.

Carl

[Western_reefer]

Its starting to look better!! Keep up the good work!!

[MSX-Jeff]

FWIW, if it is bryopsis NOTHING (that I know of) will eat it! I have heard reports that dosing LARGE quantities of Kent Tech-M will kill it.

[Reefski's]

it does look like bryopsis to me too. there are 3 or 4 patches. i have no idea where it came from. i haven't seen any in this tank before or on any of the additions. it is on rocks that have been in the tank over a year. weird.

revenge of the phosphate gods.

stay tuned.

Carl

[bigfalcon36]

Tech M will crush it...but your system is so huge that it would be difficult to reach the levels you need to nuke it. Have you tried a ROWA-Phos or Phosban? It's only a band aid, but it may help get the levels down to where the stuff dies off and helps you get your hands around the issue.

[Reefski's]

what is Tech M? is it a magnesium supplement? i have mgso4 and mgcl i can and am dosing. mg tested at 1251ppm

potassium is low, 300ppm, and i am going to be raising that up.

I have tried gfo but had alk problems that may or may not have been related. i may try it again although with the top off water issue fixed my levels are staying fairly low, 0.08ppm. i still have 25 pounds of gfo and a fluidized bed reactor to put it in.

the turf scubber ver 3.0 is starting to work although i am awaiting a better screen for it too.

nitrates are not as high as i thought. they are only 7.5ppm with AWT service. i need another test kit, mine was ancient. still not perfect but not as bad as i thought.

Carl

[melev]

Tech-M is a Kent product, and apparently it is the only one that seems to nuke Bryopsis. Everyone tried other magnesium supplements with zero results, and no-one knows what is in Tech-M. Kent reported it is Mg and water.

I'm surprised they haven't bottled it up and labeled it Byropsis Killer yet. :lol:

[kinlayan]

hmm so MgCL and mg so4 mixture wont kill bryopsis? only tech m is that right , also i hear you have to pump the mg up to over 1500?

You have to pull out that bryopsis as it is one of toughest most resilient algae i have sen when it spreads even in low nutrient enviroments

[Reefski's]

steve-thank you so much.

steve helped hook me up with aquariumwatertesting.com
Ammonia (NH3-4) ........................Good ......................................... 0.006
Nitrite (NO2)................................Good ......................................... 0.017
Nitrate (NO3)...............................Good .............................................7.5
Phosphate (PO4) ..........................Good ........................................... 0.09
Silica (SiO2-3) .............................Good .............................................0.3
Potassium (K) ...............................Low............................................. 302
Calcium (Ca)................................Good ............................................ 401
Boron (B) ....................................Good .............................................5.2
Molybdenum (Mo).........................Good .............................................0.1
Strontium (Sr) .............................Good .............................................7.8
Magnesium (Mg) ..........................Good .......................................... 1251
Iodine (I¯)....................................Low............................................ 0.02
Copper (Cu++) ............................Good ........................................... 0.00
Alkalinity (meq/L).........................Good ........................................... 4.31

looks pretty good, not perfect.

nitrate is lower than my tests indicated which was like 25ppm

my tests also read a little higher for mg and ca.

i'm surprised they don't give pH


Carl

[Ed Reef]

Looks like you need to be getting some Zeo KB Strong to bring up your K levels

[melev]

Carl, if that is the Magnesium level, that would help explain your montipora losses. I had the same problem a couple of years ago. Once I kept it between 1300 and 1400ppm, they healed up and turned into some very pretty pieces.

Phosphates are nearly .1ppm, so that's still needing to come down.

Alk is a tad high at 12 dKH. The target range of 8 to 11 is 2.86 meq/L - 3.89 meq/L

It's always nice to compare those numbers against our own kits from time to time to see how the parameters measure up.

They can't measure pH because that number drops the longer the water sits. With shipping and temperature swings, the number would be quite low by the time they could test it. Oxygen brings it up, but aerating it wouldn't match your tank's oxygen level. That is why you measure that yourself with a calibrated probe, usually with a meter or controller.

[MrPike]

Some methods for nitrate testing can be interfered with by chloride and give a low reading. I wonder what methods AWT uses. Also, I wouldn't put much stock in their potassium reading.

[Reefski's]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15385161#post15385161 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MrPike
Some methods for nitrate testing can be interfered with by chloride and give a low reading. I wonder what methods AWT uses. Also, I wouldn't put much stock in their potassium reading.

wouldn't they know about the nitrate being affected by salt water with some tests. i know my hanna c200 can't accurately measure in saltwater.

why don't you trust their salt water reading?

Carl

[volcom69]

I read through alot of your thread here, and i must say things are turning around for the better, but it all takes time for good things to happen when things wernt right. Keep up the good work it will pay off for you.

So Mark are you saying that under 1300 ppm of Mag your monties faded in color. Mine right now is about 1260-1290 and my monties seem pretty good, but maybe ill try to raise it alittle. Also you guys were talking about his PH, were you talking about it being low, because my ph is always low. I live in a new house, and i have tried everything that every article said, and even with running kalk if my windows are closed my ph is 7.7-7.9, and i still get great growth and color. So i stoped worring about it and open windows when i can to get it above 8, but i worry more about keeping alk steady then the ph being high, just my 2 cents. Keep up the good work Carl things are turning around.

[melev]

volcom69 - Yes, keeping the Mg level up seems to really make the different for Montipora sp. in my tank. I like to keep it near 1400ppm.

Regarding pH, that isn't a number I worry about, although I do keep track of it as I check on the tank daily. I know there are some beautiful reefs that peak at 7.9 each day, so if your numbers are about the same and the tank looks good, I wouldn't worry too much about it. Are you using a test kit, or a pH meter of some kind?

[volcom69]

Hey Mark, im using my Reef keeper controller which reads my ph for me, i do calibrate the probe every month though. I just find it amazing though how many people worry about low PH. There are some tanks in italy/places like that i have see that run there ph at 7.6-7.8. I even asked one guy on another forum site why he runs his ph so low, and he told me guys over here dont run theres over 8. So i think the whole ph things is confusing to me, you have guys who say you better run it over 8, then you have peoples tanks who never even reach 8 and there tanks are beautiful. So i just worry about keeping a steady alk then anything else, i do however run a higher alk 8-9 since my ph is lower.

[melev]

That sounds like the best plan to me. If your numbers are steady & consistent and the tank is doing well, don't mess with it trying to reach a magic number. :thumbsup:

[crsandoval]

How are the peppermint shrimp doing? Also, are the snails mowing thru? I just spent the afternoon brushing the LR and netting all of it out.

[Plankt0s]

Last night I was reading this thread and I quickly clicked through the four pages since the split and then all of my internets spilled out from somewhere. While my internets were out I didnt have any cable either but at least I had these four pages in my cache so I spent the time to read all of the posts. I remember checking out this thread when it was beginning and thinking...Wow, this tank is going to be awesome. Im sorry to hear that you have been having trouble but I'm happy to see that everything seems to be working out. Good luck!

[HMOOB]

Hi Carl,

Sorry to hear about the problems your tank are having. The anemone and monti cap frag I got from you are doing very well. You have healthy corals, I'm sure they'll all bounce right back.

Here's them:
http://i653.photobucket.com/albums/uu260/hmoobLB/DSC04014.jpg

[fishcatdog66]

How are things going?Been following for a while and am still keenly interested in your system.Are you dealing with the heat ok?

[salty joe]

Hey Carl, have not heard anything in a while. Everything OK?

[Plankt0s]

It's been almost two months since the last time that Reefski's has updated ... I hope everything is ok.

[jmoney]

I would add some live feeder shrimp from livebrineshrimp.com those guys mowed my tank to pieces in conjunction with vodka dosing

[Tyler Durden]

Update?

[Reefski's]

thanks for asking. everything is ok. just going slow on the recovery. fish are all doing well. water parameters are good. i haven't added any corals in about 3 months. those died.

i have been very busy with work and barely any time to work on the tank. it looks a lot better when i actually clean the viewing pane which i neglected for a couple weeks at a time.

i will try to write more this weekend. i am at a seminar in Salt Lake City for the weekend and will have boring down time in the evenings.

[Plankt0s]

Cool, so your PO4 is in check now? What would it take to do a 100% water change over a week for you? Your tank has so much potential and I hate to see someone have to go through so many hurdles.

[Reefski's]

PO4 has been good since i stopped putting tap water in the system.

today i tested it at 0.07. last weeks readings were 0.03 and 0.05 on two different days. in about the last three months i have used LC twice when the levels got to 0.15ppm. and the last time was about 6 weeks ago.

i have started to use GFO again in the last month. hopefully the ATS will pick up the growth. i recently changed the screen material.

much more later.

[fishcatdog66]

Great to see you back!Busy at work is good news!

[Plankt0s]

No kidding. Most people that I know have been laid off, including myself.

[Tyler Durden]

Sad thing is "busy at work" now usually means doing the work of two or more people for less money =(

[fishcatdog66]

Interested to see the change in screen material.Different type or just changed what was there for the same?Again,great that you're back.

[Reefski's]

It has been a couple of months since I last posted. There was really nothing much or good to report.

I think things are finally turning around.

A little history for new readers.

I have used NSW since I set up the tank early last year.
The tank is mainly lit with a 4x8 skylight the foot print of the tank. The shaft is lined with spectral aluminum as in a MH reflector.
In addition I have two 400 watt 10000K bulbs on light rails that run a couple of hours morning and evening. This is for me mostly.
The garage sumps/tanks are lit with two 250 watt 10,000k bulbs, all ballasts and reflectors are icecap.
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/DSC00532.jpg
The ATS is lit with a 400 watt halide.
Skimmer is a C4848 from MyReefCreations.com
Total pumps are a few small power head in the sumps, tunze 6060? In the two 250 gallon garage tanks and 5 Sequence Hammerhead pumps for OM’s, tank return, skimmer, surge tanks.
Water motion is provided with two Oceans Motions four ways under the tank driven by two Hammerhead pumps. Additional motion is provided by two 75 gallon surge tanks in the closet above the tank.
Sumps/garage tanks comprise four 160 gallon containers and two 250 gallon tanks over that.
Water from the overflows goes into the glass tanks and some goes thru AC and GFO and over the turf scrubber.
Ca and Alk is provided by cacl and soda carbonate or bicarbonate, mgcl supplies magnesium as needed. The above are dripped into the tank over the day from a 5 gallon container of RO/DI water next to the sump. Additional top off water is just dumped into the sump to keep the salinity right. I am using about 20 gallons per day of top off water.
Tank temps have been very stable this summer. No chiller. I do have a big fan over the sump that only needed to run a handful of the hottest days. Our temps rarely hit even the high 80’s here so close to the marine influence. The ocean is about 3 miles away.

Tank temps have been running 81-83. the highest this summer was 84. for those of you that keep your tanks at 77 degrees are probably freaking out about that. See the article on RonShimek.com about reef temps. Right now temps in the tropics

I had good growth of many corals but not most sps, Monti caps and LPS always grew well until the mass death. SPS corals would always just fade away usually bleaching from the bottom up.

In April I changed some of the sand bed away from quartz based sand to aragonite. many corals died in the weeks/months after. During this time I was only using DI water, no RO stage. This water was not pure and was putting ???? in the tank. The NSW has PO4 levels up to 0.15 and who knows what else.

I added an RO component to the filter weeks ago and ro/di water now is 0tds going into the tank, hurray!

Where to start. I think it MAY have been the NSW that was hurting my tank. The last water change as with previous water changes I did with the NSW, within a day there was more tissue recession on some LPS corals. I lost the couple of test corals, a birdsnest and an acro.
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_1714.jpg

Other possibilities include a contaminant in some of the chems added, esp MgCl which is known to be “dirty”. Plasticides leaching from the storage container, something got dropped into the tank, like a screwdriver or screws or other metal object when working near the tanks in the garage or setting up the doors over the tank.

I have had several esteemed guests to the house and picked their brains for possible causes of the problems I have been having. They included Eric Borneman, Steve Garret, Sanjay Yoshi, Joe Yaiullo, and Melev.

So about a month ago I started doing water changes with SeaChem ASW. So far I have changed out about 60% of the 1700 gallons. The RO/DI is running almost nonstop now. The waste water is going into the 1200 gallon storage container in the yard to be used for all yard watering.

The two remaining SPS corals might be starting to grow. There are still two Acroporas in the tank and one at least has growth tips and good polyp extension. The purple Monti cap from GarretsAcropolis is growing again. The green and orange ones died.

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_1681.jpg
There are still peppermint shrimps in the system and also lots of aiptasia too. not in the DT though. I guess the copperband really is eating them.

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_1668.jpg

The new elbows in the tank have helped the flow I think. an interesting thing not seen as I don’t have a recent picture but the new elbows are covered with coralline algae but only on the bottom parts. The tops are still just white.

I have heard that coralline prefers lower light and that seems to be true.

Cyano bacteria was prevalent for a few weeks in the DT but is almost gone now.

Interestingly there was never any in the garage tanks which have less flow than the DT.

[Reefski's]

The economy has taken it’s toll on my business and I couldn’t keep the koi pond. I sold many of the fish and took 15 to the 2000 gallon pond at the office. I also moved a big bead filter and ¾ hp pump there as well. Now many more people can enjoy them everyday. I do worry though about someone putting something in the pond. I have seen a couple of pennies on the bottom.
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_2128.jpg
The pond will remain empty for the fore seeable future. It is weird and sad when I walk out the back door it is so damn quiet. The pond would have been seven years old last week.

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_2346.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_2346.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_2367.jpg

[Reefski's]

Some of the LPS corals lost some tissue but didn’t die.
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_2240.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_2234.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_2252.jpg

[crsandoval]

Thanks for the updates, I'm sad for you about the koi pond. Those were great pictures when you had your dog looking for the fish food.

[melev]

That pond area cleaned up really well, far better than I could imagine. Did you have a bunch of helpers pressure wash it? Perhaps you'll change it into a pool you can use in the future. Then the dogs can play in it. :)

I know your tank has been going through a lot. Something I started doing recently is blowing off all of my reef with a MaxiJet 1200 each day. It takes me about 5 minutes. In your tank, it will probably take 10 to 15 minutes, but you could dislodge a lot of that stuff on the rockwork, send it into suspension and let filter socks or the skimmer export them. Not to blast any corals, but to rinse them off with a nice blast of water.

What are your recent water test results?

Call me so we can catch up.

[Reefski's]

i'm in the SLC airport awaiting my flight home.

the pond is not as clean as i might like. it is definitely not ready for water for a pool. we did a few hours of pressurewashing but it didn't clean it enough. i think it needs sandblasting and replastering to become a pool. no money for that now.

crsandoval- i am very sad too but i couldn't afford the overhead. about $800 a month, $500 electric, $200 food, $100+ water changes.

the dog was very nervous to go in the empty pond for the first time but once i went in and coaxed him in he was fine. now he will sprint down in the pond to retrieve his Kong.


The Heliopora in the garage tank continues to do well. I put a piece in the DT a few weeks ago and it continues to live.
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/DSC00516.jpg

Some other corals continue to do well also.
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/DSC00516.jpg
Lobophylia

The Gorgonian continues to grow.

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_1973.jpg
This one is one of the first corals I ever got. It waws about 3” then. Apparently very hardy.

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_2251.jpg
The pocillipora has suffered a bit. I have found several colonies of a green one in the tank that also did not die. One as large as a quarter.

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_2271.jpg
Another one that continues to do well.

[Reefski's]

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_2245.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_2269.jpg
This one suffered some and got cyano on part of the exposed skeleton. It is gone now replaced with coralline.

The Elegance lost it’s skeleton in one of the tank episodes many weeks ago. It continues to live though it is shrinking despite daily feedings with Cyclops et al.
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_2274.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_2299.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/mysterycoral.jpg
I have no idea what this is. I just noticed it one day on the clam that had been there for many months. Then a few days later it was gone. Could it just be flake food that I fed a couple of times?

[melev]

It looks a little bit like valonia, just not in shape nor color. Was it hollow and could be popped if squeezed? Seems pretty, and a nice home for that little starfish.

You'll probably need to clean the pool with muriatic acid and water, and a pumice stone along the perimeter stonework. It will be all labor and very little expenditure, and whatever clothing/shoes you wear will be toast once done.

You said Gorgonian, but I didn't see a picture of it. The bubble coral looks very happy.

[Reefski's]

Marc- no picture of the Gorgonian. the orange thing looks kind of plating. i don't think it is hollow and i don't know if it was hard or soft.

you may be right about the pool. i don't have time or energy for that. it may be cheaper just to sandblast it when the time comes.

[Reefski's]

Marc:

it really isn't bubbly. it looks more plating coral like Monti Cap but i think it is soft as i could see it twitch a bit in the surge.

there are probably 5 brittle stars in that picture. there are hundreds, a plague of them in the tank. i wish something ate them. i think the two hawkfishes or the six line wrasse might eat a Harlequin shrimp but that would be cool.

the pond will have to wait until we sell the house to look pretty. i don't have the time or patience to clean it with muriatic acid and it does need to be replastered. there are some big cracks.

no recent Gorgonian picture but it continues to do well.

if i could catch the Maroon clowns i would put in some of the anemones that are in a garage tank along with the B&W percs.

[Reefski's]

There still continues to be a dearth of small crustaceans. When I look in the tank at night I don’t see any small crustaceans. The Mandarin continues to pick at the rockwork and doesn’t seem to be suffering.

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/DSC00511.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/DSC00508.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/DSC00515.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/DSC00521.jpg
This garage tank has no fish. It grows macroalgae and sponges but there doesn’t look to be any life in the sand. That is probably not true but that is how it looks.

[Chihuahua6]

"The waste water is going into the 1200 gallon storage container in the yard to be used for all yard watering."

Can you tell me the mechanism for delivering the water to the sprinkler system? I always liked the idea of using the waste water but have no clue how to hook it up to the sprinkler system.

[Reefski's]

There still continues to be a dearth of small crustaceans. When I look in the tank at night I don’t see any small crustaceans. The Mandarin continues to pick at the rockwork and doesn’t seem to be suffering.

the surge tanks are kept in the dark. one is empty and the other has several pounds of long established live rock with sponges et al. over that i put a layer of 1" size dry coral. that was 6 months ago.

when i look in these tanks and the garage tanks that are fishless i don't see any pods moving around. the only waer movement in the surge tanks is the inflow of water to fill. the surges are fed from water at the end of the sumps.

should i run a powerhead in the surges? should i fed these other tanks directly?

i think my water quality overall is getting better. i have been running the ro/di almost continually and changing out water with Seachem ASW. the cyano in the display has gone. the one Acro remaining is growing and the Heliopora is still doing well in the garage tank with lot of macroalgae seen below.

there may still be a few small crustaceans. i saw one Mysis shrimp the other night after lights out. i think it was just the exoskeleton blowing in the current but it means there was/is mysis still in the system. when i first set up the tank there were no fish in the system and the display tank was ruled by hundreds of mysis. i know many of the fish i have like them, the two hawkfish, copperband, 6 line wrasse, Mandarin, et al.

when i don't clean the viewing panel for a few days there are some very small, less than 1mm pods in the algae film.

there are lots of feather dusters in the sumps and garage tanks. i know the copperband in the display is likely eating any there.

in the display there are lots of the tube worms with two feeding tentacles in the sand. there is also hundreds of mini brittle stars all over the system. is there a fish that likes to eat them? i don't think a Harlequin shrimp would survive the hawkfish.

should i feed more? should i feed after lights out? i only occasionally feed after dark.

PO4 levels were 0.19 a couple of days ago and i used Lanthanum Chloride for the first time in many weeks.

there is a lot to do later today. 150 gallon water change while sucking out aiptasia and debris, clean skimmer, change carbon and GFO. clean tank.

[Reefski's]

"The waste water is going into the 1200 gallon storage container in the yard to be used for all yard watering."

Can you tell me the mechanism for delivering the water to the sprinkler system? I always liked the idea of using the waste water but have no clue how to hook it up to the sprinkler system.

the cistern has its own pump that i just hook a hose up to and pump into the yard. the yard doesn't have grass and each area has a raised border around it that will allow it to hold several inches of water. so it is really a manual kind of thing.

Carl

[Reefski's]

i am having a problem posting the wrong pictures are showing up from my photobucket account.

more later.

[popper231]

my corals were dying too, so until if figure out what's wrong, i move them all to a friend's tank...

[matt & pam]

I'm surprised you don't have any pods in your ATS. Mine is usually loaded with them. Wonder if you could get some sand from others in the area to help stimulate some diversity.

[Reefski's]

matt and pam- i have a friend nearby that i will ask for some new sand with critters. he is also going to give me a couple of sps corals from his tank to see if they live in my system.

[MrineLfRlz]

how about some updated pics on your sump room area?

[Reefski's]

thanks for the prod. I need too take some updated pix. i have been meaning to get some current pix. thanks for the reminder. it probably won't be for a few days.

[Reefski's]

I recently needed to make some fish food. I am lucky. I have an Asian Supermarket and a fish market nearby. I buy nori, I think 30 10x10 sheets, for about $4.50. the dog loves them too.

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/DSC00536.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/DSC00537.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/DSC00538.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/DSC00539.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/DSC00540.jpg

[Reefski's]

Clams, shrimp, mussels, squid, sardines, tuna, vitamins and AA, rotifers, cyclopeeze, mysis, and ???
It makes about 15 pounds and will last a few months. The kitchen Aid was not an aid. The sharp blade on the Cuisinard food processor works much better, pulsing as needed.

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/DSC00541.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/DSC00543.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/DSC00545.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/DSC00546.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/DSC00547.jpg

[Elliott]

wow, those fish eat better than most people, I thought I was looking at the cooking channel for a minute :lol:

[Reefski's]

it is way cheaper than 15 pounds of food from the LFS. it is all really good food. i made all that for around $120.

[Elliott]

I can't even imagine what you would have paid for that at a LFS, don't think you could get that quality of food anyway, which is why you probably did it yourself, great job! :D

[Reefski's]

i may have trouble with the corals but the fish are fat and seem healthy and vigorous.
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_2012.jpg

[kmacartney]

LOL, I should eat that healthy!

[melev]

That's not fish food, that's goulash! Wow - I bet your fish are going to be happy as can be. As they poop in the tank, the corals will be fed, so no worries there.

Your sand looks nice and clean, and what you've reported recently sounds good. I don't believe I would up the feeding volume or you may find more algae outbreaks again.

I don't know if the Hawkfish would allow the Harlequin Shrimp to live. Probably better to not chance it.

[Reefski's]

the pictures didn't post. trying again in next post

[Reefski's]

not reef related except this is how i pay for my obsession.
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/DSC00617.jpg

before we could finish a storm came up. we had one day to waterproof the job temporarily. there went enough money up in smoke to keep me in salt for a year or more. we spent a day prepping for the rain. i am really happy to say not a single leak.

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/DSC00686.jpg
here i am actually working on the roof. my crew would be the first to tell you that doesn't happen often.
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/DSC00699.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/DSC00706.jpg
the job is all covered. about a 200' long building with a 3' wide swatch open to the weather in the middle of the builing and another along one whole edge. it rained 2.25" that night. almost unheard of in October here. October rainfall is usually unmeasurable.



last night i had to go back to the building at 8pm as we were have huge winds and things were blowing off the roof. if the wind had blown like that when it was raining it would have been a huge disaster and i would be out of business for good. last night nothing too bad happened but flying debris could have been really bad. one car got a piece of debris on it that the manager removed prior to my arrival and i couldn't get a good look at the car in the dark. no wonder i don't sleep well in the winter time.

[salty joe]

Hey Carl,
First of all, glad to see you have some work. Things are tough in Ohio too, but we're hanging in.

What kind of fish are these? Do they still have all their guts? Are they frozen or fresh?
Joe

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/DSC00541.jpg

[Reefski's]

i finally cleaned the glass on the garage tank and could see in from the side. these sponges are under an overhang and get very little light.
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/sponges.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/spongecloseup.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_2799.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_2797.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_2703.jpg

these feather dusters are growing in 1/4" of debris on the BB of the tank.

[Reefski's]

here is a partial picture of the garage. i am not really happy with the water flow over the ATS.

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_2809.jpg

[MrineLfRlz]

i finally cleaned the glass on the garage tank and could see in from the side. these sponges are under an overhang and get very little light.
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_2703.jpg

these feather dusters are growing in 1/4" of debris on the BB of the tank.
thanks for taking some pics of the sump room
did you put the feather dusters in there or did they hitch hick?
because they look like the types you buy from how big they appear

[Reefski's]

they just appeared. the heads are about 1" diameter.

interestingly, this tank has a several fish. there are none in the sister tank that has a lot of macroalgae and no fish. both tanks are fed with overflow from the DT.

there are none in the DT either.

[Reefski's]

i still have several of these in the system. i must be feeding too much because i don't see a diminution of aiptasia.
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_2746.jpg

the anemones continue to thrive. both the good and the bad.
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_2728.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_2749.jpg

the Elegance coral has not had a skeleton since April but continues to live although it is smaller.
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_2705.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_2747.jpg

[anbosu]

That collection of feather dusters looks pretty awesome. You have a great system set up, I hope you can work through all of your issues.

[Reefski's]

thank you very much. i think i have turned the corner to health. i was pretty discouraged for a while but i am feeling better.

i am going to try and catch the Maroon clowns. i have a friend who wants them for his breeding program.

if i can catch them i will put the four black and white clowns and some RBTA's in the DT.

we may try tonight. i am not that hopeful of catching them but we will see.

[matt & pam]

Does the elegance respond to feeding?

[Reefski's]

i feed it every day the food i feed the fish and anemones. the stuff you see above. i think it eats but is still getting smaller and no skeleton has grown. it hopes of stimulating calcification i am keeping the pH at about 8.6

Eric Borneman says he is not hopeful but has heard of a skeleton being regrown but it may just be apocryphal.

[MrineLfRlz]

i still have several of these in the system. i must be feeding too much because i don't see a diminution of aiptasia.
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_2746.jpg

the anemones continue to thrive. both the good and the bad.
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_2728.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_2749.jpg

the Elegance coral has not had a skeleton since April but continues to live although it is smaller.
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_2705.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_2747.jpg
at least they are benifitial filters though being that you have so many

[MrineLfRlz]

i still have several of these in the system. i must be feeding too much because i don't see a diminution of aiptasia.
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_2746.jpg
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_2747.jpg
at least they are benifitial filters though being that you have so many

[Reefski's]

of the two tanks in the garage the anemone tank has lots of feather dusters, the other one none. both receive DT over flow water. the feather duster tank has anemones, ATS, and fish and is also bare bottom. the other tank has several inches of sand, one Heliopora, macroalgae, no fish, and no feather dusters.

how come? there are lots of them in the sump tanks underneath too.

some corals continue to do well.
the Umi Xenia looks good and is spreading even though a nearby Xenia Elongata nearby faded away.
Steve what do you think? is it a bit contracted from the way yours look?
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_2754.jpg

the Lobophylia never receeded. however the little piece of Montipora came from a piece that showed no signs of life and then one day i saw this little piece.
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_2760.jpg

steve- this piece is a survivor of the tri color frag plug. it has come back from almost nothing.
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_2762.jpg

this Acan was kind of the canary in the coal mine. the whole piece started out like this.
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_6514.jpg

and then parts died off the coincided with additions of NSW.
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_1977.jpg

[Reefski's]

and now it looks like this.
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_2771.jpg

some still look fine.
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_2774.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_2777.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_2767.jpg

the clams have kept growing.
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_2764.jpg

[Reefski's]

this is the most variable coral in the tank.
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_2769.jpg
as soon as the lights go out the feeding tentacles come out.
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_2617.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_2619.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_2623.jpg

[Reefski's]

Bryson loves Nori.

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/th_brysonnori.jpg (http://s93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/?action=view&current=brysonnori.flv)

Happy dog
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_2680.jpg

[Reefski's]

playful Bryson
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_2633.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_2666.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_2675.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_2677.jpg

[Reefski's]

we got a new dog. she was a stray that apparently was left behind when the owners lost their house and had been running the streets a couple of weeks.
she is only half as big as Bryson so no problems. she is very shy right now but is warming up to us.
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_2811.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_2817.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_2816.jpg

[Ian]

Carl, I see you're still having problems with your tank. Sorry to hear.

Are you still using that UCSB NSW?

[matt & pam]

What are the dimensions of the sump tanks?

[Reefski's]

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_2809.jpg

there are four of the white bins, each about 150 gallons, the glas tanks are 66x48x18" or about 250 gallons.

Ian- i think you were right. stuff is starting to grow again since i stopped using the water several weeks ago.

i just did the 10th water change yesterday. each one has been 150 gallons, mostly with Seachem salt mix.

i have a little pod experiment i am going to do. 3 or 4 tanks with various combinations of my LR, sand, and my tank water or new ASW. i just need some time to set it all up and some LR from another tank.

more later about this.

we are trying to catch the Maroon Clowns. last weekend we easily caught the male. he never got far from the bubble coral they host in. the female was much more elusive and has eluded capture so far. any suggestions. we tryed in the dark, and during the day.

if we can get her out i have a friend who wants to breed them.

then we can put several anemones in one end of the tank with the four B&W clowns.

Carl

[anbosu]

How are you trying to capture the fish? A lot of people use barbless hooks to catch unwanted fish.

[MSX-Jeff]

a spear gun might be your best bet for a female maroon...they are a PITA :)

[Reefski's]

i wouldn't know how to hook her. and i hope to trade her for some corals so spearing her is out.

[Beaun]

So you think the issue was the sea water?

[Reefski's]

i think so, i hope so.

although i have been using it for a few years now in my previous tanks to and this tank from the beginning.

i have never had Acros and other sps corals live for long in my other systems with a few exceptions. some montiporas, et al.

[Lightsluvr]

Any idea why your acans started to recede like that? Apparently a water issue, but what? :crazy1:

LL

[Reefski's]

the Acan recession coincided with NSW additions. for a while we thought maybe contamination from MgCl or something got dropped in the tank but i think i can rule those out now that things are getting better with using ASW for water changes.

[erics3000]

My dog loves Nori too..

[Reefski's]

Bryson eats more Nori than the fish. good thing it is relatively cheap at the market instead of the lfs.

[crsandoval]

Have you completely stopped using NSW? I remember that you were a big proponent of it. So now it is all ASW with RO/DI to top off. Could it have been that you were using tap and NSW. I did that and oh boy did my system go down. Hair algae, cyano blooms and coral recession.

[kinlayan]

i experienced alot of problems using NSW as well, in the long run i swtiched to ASW because the amount of manipulation i had to do on the NSW was almost as expensive as ASW use. I do allow my topoff r/o to remineralise before it is added to the aquarium by running it through aragonite otherwise i find the r/o eats up your kh faster. IMO if you not using the same tropical type seawater and you are using temperate Seawater the nutrients in both are quite different

[Elliott]

i experienced alot of problems using NSW as well, in the long run i swtiched to ASW because the amount of manipulation i had to do on the NSW was almost as expensive as ASW use. I do allow my topoff r/o to remineralise before it is added to the aquarium by running it through aragonite otherwise i find the r/o eats up your kh faster. IMO if you not using the same tropical type seawater and you are using temperate Seawater the nutrients in both are quite different

can you elaborate on the r/o eating up kh and how you run it through aragonite? thanks

[kinlayan]

My r/o evaporation topoff goes through an old kalk stirrer filled with aragonite before it enters the water. R/o water is fairly "aggressive" as it has quite abit of its mineral contents removed through the r/o process and it readily wants to react with minerals again so its going to use up carbonates in the process when it comes into contact with them, now we normally want our corals and coralline to use the carbonates more than we want our top off water too.

i dont know if that awkward explanation helps :sleep:

[Elliott]

My r/o evaporation topoff goes through an old kalk stirrer filled with aragonite before it enters the water. R/o water is fairly "aggressive" as it has quite abit of its mineral contents removed through the r/o process and it readily wants to react with minerals again so its going to use up carbonates in the process when it comes into contact with them, now we normally want our corals and coralline to use the carbonates more than we want our top off water too.

i dont know if that awkward explanation helps :sleep:

very interesting, makes sense, thanks :D

[Reefski's]

Have you completely stopped using NSW? I remember that you were a big proponent of it. So now it is all ASW with RO/DI to top off. Could it have been that you were using tap and NSW. I did that and oh boy did my system go down. Hair algae, cyano blooms and coral recession.

i have gone cold turkey on the NSW. i am have changed out about 1500 gallons, 150 gallons at a time.

i just changed all the various componenets of the RODI unit and recharged the Kati Ani Di beads.

after RO was 85 TDS and after DI was only 1. now 1 and 0.
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_0054-1.jpg

[fishcatdog66]

really glad you are back on track!The pic is of the beads?Is the color change from top to bottom as you see it or is it a sunlight "trick" as the bottom of the vessel is not in direct sunlight?For me ,it looks pink at the top and grey at the bottom?

[Reefski's]

the color change is as sodium hydroxide is flushed thru the beads from the top down. after it is done the color change was not as pronounced as you see in the photo.

i am getting some frags tomorrow from a nearby friend.

time to clean the skimmer. this is about three weeks worth of skimmate.
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_0052.jpg

doesn't seem like all that much. it is pretty thick though. i still hope to have the courage to turn it off one day.

reef related sort of dog photo.
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_0031.jpg

which looks more comfortable?
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_0041.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_0044.jpg

just chillin
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_0050.jpg

[MTH]

Can't beat the view of your recent job. Hope everything is going well with the tank and coral. I especially enjoy seeing the Crosshatch.

[hihikeke]

Thts one big *** skimmer

[Reefski's]

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_2842.jpg
if only these were as easy to kill as corals. they are still proliferating all over the tank. i think Ron Shimek says they are a type of colonial stage of a jellyfish.

i am trying to figure some material to combine with CaOH and then smother them. i was thinking something like silly putty or clay. some thing that could be removed or maybe smothered in two part epoxy with CaOH mixed into the two part.

the tangs keep the algae grazed short and you can see the white bare rock that has been grazed by the urchin.

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_2839.jpg

some corals were mostly unaffected by the recent tank events.
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_2838.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_2850.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_2852.jpg

[Reefski's]

the good old days when i had a bunch of monti caps in the tank.

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_7527-1.jpg

a friend gave me some frags last week. they are still alive and well and will get into the tank one of these days.

[Reefski's]

the circus is in town again. if you ever get the chance to see Cirque du Soleil it is a lot of fun. it was a great day to be at the beach. temps in the low 70's. just beautiful.
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_0069.jpg

he rode this bike about a mile down the crowded boardwalk and then back again.
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_0070.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_0071.jpg

[melev]

Hey Carl, what did you end up doing about those hydroids on the rocks?

[Matias Ilhabela]

Hydroids these you can try to control with some butterfly striatus, here in Brazil a friend was doing tests on them to eat the Hydroids not know about that, another option is to put kalk with an applicator on top of them.
the kalk will take a lot more work, but you will slowly killing

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_2842.jpg

[Reefski's]

Hey Carl, what did you end up doing about those hydroids on the rocks?

i haven't done anything yet. i am going to pull out a couple of the rocks that are easy to get to and then try to cover the rest with two part mixed with CaOH.

it will be slow. i won't have time or energy to do them all at once. i just need to get started slowly doing it and see it it even works. i am ready to start putting some corals back in the tank and see if they live.

i don't trust a butterfly in the tank except the Copperband. i am told the Kilini (sp) will eat the aiptasia. don't know about the others. they are not really hydroids but are a form of jellyfish.

Matias is my next door neighbors name. whatever they are they are the most successful thing in the tank except maybe the mini brittle stars which are not really a pest but there sure are a lot of them.


Carl

[melev]

Carl, they are definitely a filterfeeder, and you are no doubt giving them plenty to eat which is why they grow so abundantly in your system.

Hermits and Emerald crabs maybe the way to go with getting them under control, and perhaps limiting some of the amount of food they capture daily.

[Reefski's]

Ron Shimek and Eric Borneman don't know of any natural predators for them. i have a blue legged hermit that has shown no interest.

they are a lot of hungry mouths aren't they?

as far as an emerald crab, when you buy them they are small but get a LOT bigger. the last one i had disappeared for about a year and then when i moved that tank i found it and it scared the crap out of me when i dislodged the rock it was under.

so i don't think so. i still have the black tipped white crab in the tank. i don't know what it eats as it never leaves the one rock it has lived in since it went in the tank, (unknown at the time). it is only visible with a flashlight after dark when it comes out of it hole in the rock.

Carl

[Matias Ilhabela]

i don't trust a butterfly in the tank except the Copperband

striatus really eat corals, but before you take the coral it will eat Aiptasia and maybe eat hydroids


I thought the jellyfish reproduced in its make adult only, and not in their way when they are sessile imprisoned in the seabed

""sessile (ssl)
1. Permanently attached or fixed and not free-moving, as corals and mussels.""

[melev]

Yes, all those mouths are eating plantonic-sized food. Phytoplankton, rotifers, golden pearls, cyclop-eeze... and fish poo of course.

If you were keeping a lot of non-photosynthetic corals like gorgonians, I could see why a lot of feeding would benefit your tank, but it seems like the feeding process has really done a number on your tank. I don't mean to be negative at all, but you lost a lot of corals that you loved. You've got your water under control now, and I know you have a bunch of fish. What corals are still doing well in your tank? It might be time to focus on purer water conditions, feeding a little less, and removing those pest hydroids (wannabe jellies).

I know money is tight, but if you ordered a couple of hundred tiny hermits from Keys Critters, they might be the ones to check up those things. They also sell emerald crabs that aren't scary-sized. ;)

[Matias Ilhabela]

ilhabela here do not have the emerald crab, we have what we call red emerald is the mitraculus forceps is an excellent algae eater and loves Bubble Algae.
but to eat hydroids and jellyfish think that only some kind of fish or Nudibranquio

http://www.brasilreef.com/forum/matias/12_09_9901.jpg

http://www.brasilreef.com/forum/matias/12_09_9905.jpg

http://www.brasilreef.com/forum/matias/12_09_9908.jpg

I'm sorry if I'm writing something wrong, I use the translator google and most times I have to correct some things that are wrong

[crsandoval]

That is a cool photo of him/her being hand fed... literally.

[Matias Ilhabela]

another crab that is very similar to the mithraculus forceps, and the Mithrax hispidus, but he eats coral, the difference is that in the thorns hispidus has double-ended.


http://www.brasilreef.com/forum/matias/caranguejo02.jpg

[Reefski's]

great pictures.

i have a few bubble algae that one of the fish eats. i think it is the Foxface Rabbit Fish.

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_3089.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_3081.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_3075.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_3071.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_3070.jpg

[Reefski's]

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_3091.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_3097.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_3104.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_3105.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_3113.jpg

[melev]

With that coral load, I think I would focus on feeding only the fish and let their poo feed your corals. The elegance is the only one that would actually need to be target fed.

[Reefski's]

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_3123.jpg

the parts of the ATS that is getting the most flow has a good growth on it. too much water though is going over this part and not all the way around so as to flow over all the screen. it needs adjusting of the gap and i need more time.

a potential catastrophe is looming. the NaOH i use for recharging the DI unit has leaked onto the floor and eroded part of the sump framwork. i don't think it has affected the integrity of the container portion.
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_3129.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_3130.jpg

[MrineLfRlz]

what are you going to do then just clean it up and keep an eye on it?
how bad did it eat into the plastic base?

[Arthurjc]

i am more worried about the giant bristleworms in the display tank.
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/DSC00129.jpg

the crab is back in the first bin of the sumps. there is little likelyhood of it making its's way into the next bin and impossible to get to the display tank.

i wonder how big they can get. i will have to ask Ron Shimek.

Carl

Holy crap that’s huge! lol

[matt & pam]

What material are you using for the ATS screen? Source?

[frontosa14]

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_2842.jpg
if only these were as easy to kill as corals. they are still proliferating all over the tank. i think Ron Shimek says they are a type of colonial stage of a jellyfish.




They are stinging hydroids of the genus Myrionema. Wherever possible, use snips or bone cutters to cut away as much of the colony as possible and then treat the area with kalk paste or carbonate buffer.

Good luck and I hope you're feeling better.

[Reefski's]

what are you going to do then just clean it up and keep an eye on it?
how bad did it eat into the plastic base?

i just put the NaOH in a bucket so it can't leak on the floor any more. then just keep an eye on it. if it did break and spill water it would be a catastrophe.

all the part you see eaten is part of the containerm but only the feet. that is all that got damaged. the actual bottom of the water holding part is a few inches off the ground and seems intact.

the ATS screen is rather flimsy plastic with holes in in. hard to see and i don't have any better pictures right now.

i did a big clean of the screen last weekend. PO4 yesterday was 0.19 so i used 20 ml of LaCl in the system to bring it down some.

[Reefski's]

They are stinging hydroids of the genus Myrionema. Wherever possible, use snips or bone cutters to cut away as much of the colony as possible and then treat the area with kalk paste or carbonate buffer.

Good luck and I hope you're feeling better.

i think i may take out a couple of the rocks. and cover the rest over time with kalk paste in epoxy.

i am not sure about using snips in the tank. i don't think i could get a clean removal.

[ourmanflint]

Wow.. what a read. Well done on getting everything sorted out. Butterflyfish like C. falcula will definitely eat your hydroids/nausithoe but may take a few nips elsewhere too.

[Reefski's]

sounds interesting but i think i have too many other things in the tank that they may like to eat that i wouldn't want them to eat.

not sure everything is sorted out but i think/hope i am on the right track. i got a couple of acro frags from a friend that didn't make it over the last few weeks. they were in the refugium in the garage and maybe they were affected by all the chemicals put off by the 15 anemones in the tank and the flow isn't very strong in that tank. the new LPS corals in the DT are doing fine.

Carl

[fishcatdog66]

So.you are probably having a well deserved vacation over Christmas and New Years?Still really diggin your set up.Just checkin in.

[Reefski's]

thanks all for your input.

the frags from my friend did not make it.

check out this thread for some more info from Eric et al.
http://forum.marinedepot.com/Topic105362-9-2.aspx?Update=1


Eric Borneman's sysnopsis below.

"There doesn't have to be one smoking gun here. Concrete blocks, mold, paint, rubber dust, some old chrome-plating, some residual effects from NSW, dominance and growth of hydroids and brittle stars outcompeting new species, earlier input water issues now corrected. But, it does need to be pretty significant since there is also so much right about the tank that far exceeds the poor designs of many systems that lack these chronic problems."

Eric thank you for the great synopsis.

i have been thinking a lot about all this of course. i was at a friends house recently who was breaking his tank down after a few years. really nice sps tank. he has a small maintenance business and is devoting all his time to his customers tanks and won't have a display tank of his own anymore. just some holding tanks for clients stuff.

he told me his tank has been neglected for months now. didn't know the calcium levels or pH or other parameters, no water change in months, yet his tank was thriving. kind of depressing for me. he gave me a few pieces a couple months back that have since died in my system.

i have been thinking a lot also about the contamination/toxin idea since Jaki was here and noticed a smell in the surge closet. when i connected the surges back in April, and changed out a portion of the sand bed the problems got worse. Monti caps and many LPS corals went downhill and died.

in the closet i used a roofing deck coating product that is rolled on with a brush. the closet has been kept closed. this coating was applied about a year before the surges were installed. however there is still a smell. so outgassing?

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_7480.jpg
you can see a bit in the vertical surface below the bottom tank. there is 25-30 square feet of this material in the closet.

perhaps this is why there are no pods or other crustaceans in the system anymore, esp the surge tanks in the closet. i did see just yesterday a couple of the 1/4" or less little swimming pods in the garage refugium tank swimming in amongst the algae.
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/DSC01456.jpg
this tank is the farthest from the surge closet and only has a small input of new water flowing through it.

i have a couple friends coming by today to help with some tank work. i think i will turn off the surge and remove the rock from the one surge tank and put it in the sump.

there really aren't any corals in the tank that would really benefit from the surge right now anyway.

i have asked my supplier for the msds sheet on the product and i will also call the manufacturer next week.

ok, so that is one possible area to address.

however i have lost some more polyps on several corals recently. this latest loss has coincided with MgCl addition to the tank. i added 250 gm twice two days apart. within a day or two there was new tissue loss. the Acan lost the last 5 polyps from a once thriving colony that i had had for almost two years.
we suspected the MgCl in the past too. previously there were other things that needed correcting to as Eric said above.

with this recent loss i had not done a water change with ASW in about 6 weeks.

perhaps there is a high concentration of what ever is coming from the MgCl that is near the toxic level and pushed over the top with the two additions.

Mg levels are about 1420ppm.

here is the product i was using and have used for ever in this tank.
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_0148-1.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_0149-1.jpg

the label says 98%pure. i can't find info on the manufactures web site about the other ingredients. the MSDS is being revised. http://www.nasalt.com/msds.htm#

it just looks dirty.
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_3269.jpg

so i guess i should undertake some more massive water changes.

what is a good source of MgCl in bulk?

[Elliott]

there has been some recent evidence that outgassing from the grey rubermaid trash cans, the type that most reefers use to do water changes, is toxic to our livestock, so it would not surprise me that outgassing may be occurring in your closet, bulk reef supply is a good source for MgCl and MgS04, however I don't think Mg is your issue, many reefers have posted that they have overdosed Mg, some above 2000 ppm without any noticeable side effects on livestock, my guess is you have a toxic chemical that is the culprit of your problem and I would simplify your system as much as possible, eliminating one thing at a time.

[Reefski's]

i don't think it is the magnesium chloride but rather a contaminant of the manufacturing process.

i have been eliminating things for months now. and making some progress i think. the tank looked much better a year ago.

i have a couple friends coming by to help for a bit with taking out some hydroid rocks.

Carl

[matt & pam]

I have experienced some negative effects when I used mag flakes to supplement my tank. I've since switched to BRS mag and haven't had any difficulties. When I first started using the MgCl2 flakes, I would raise my tank levels 200-250 over the course of a couple days. Then I would notice my monti's looking crappy. Have you tested for ammonia in the magnesium? It is one of the possible contaminants I've read about (the product I used tested negative for it). I wasn't using dow flakes though.

[kinlayan]

are any of the negative effects on the corals affecting any soft corals, or is it only the hard coral types that were affected?

[Reefski's]

the only soft corals i have are a few mushrooms, Zoanthids, Gorgonian, and Anthelia, i think. the mushrooms are rather contracted but never died. they have never grown much in any of my tanks.

the Anemones and clams are doing fine too.



Carl

[s2k]

Hi Carl - found your thread! Thanks for letting us stop by your place this past Saturday to check out your solar system and reef tank. It's such an awesome setup and hopefully it will recover quickly. I also really like your smaller Koi pond. It's unfortunate that you had to take down your 20k gallon setup.

[Reefski's]

thank you. the big pond was fun. it still makes me sad, and it is so quiet in the yard after years of running water.

Carl

the good old days last year.
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/DSC08321-1.jpg
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/lazy-koi.jpg

[kinlayan]

I find it interesting that most of the corals suffering are those that build a skeleton, you say anemones and clams are fine, I would suspect the problem is
either a toxin in the skeleton building substance Calcium , magnesium etc or incorrect parameters - too high Phosphate etc

Could it be that the system is suffering due to a natural chemical warfare toxin produced by Caulerpa/algae or some other soft coral which is doing really well in your aquarium?Algae scrubber aquariums often seem to have trouble with Stony corals for some reason.

Just theories as i had similar issues that you had and only certain organisms besides my fish are thriving in my aquarium while others just dont seem to do well

[Reefski's]

the male Crosshatch Trigger is dead. i am very sad.

first off let me say i have had my pair of Crosshatch Triggers for about 18 months. they are my favorite fish. they are about 8-9". they were the last fish added to the tank.

lately, esp at the full moon time they had been courting i think. about dusk swimming around each other in circles for a couple of minutes. no spawning that i can see. that has happened at least the last 2-3 months.

last friday the male was digging/clearing a bigger hole near his usual resting spot but more out in the open. then he went missing until my daughter spotted him a little while ago farther into the rock work near his usual spot. only his tail could barely be seen.

i have not changed anything in my feeding regime or anything else. all the other fish including the female Cross Hatch are acting normally.

he had not left the cave for almost a week. wednesday night when we went to bed he was still in the cave. thursday morning i left early while still dark to go out of town. my daughter went to feed the fish and found him laying on the floor all dried up and stiff.

he was my favorite fish.

why? prior to the last week of hiding he was not acting any differently.

how long do Crosshatch Triggers normally live?

will the female now become a male?

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_0374.jpg

the death of my favorite fish is sad but nothing compared to some news i got October 15th. my good friend John who has been invaluable in building my system was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer. then it was already about the size of a loaf of bread. a death sentence for sure. he is trying chemo to slow the tumor growth. we don't know if it is working or not yet. they will reassess it in another month or so. he continues to lose weight and is getting weaker every day. i am surprised he is still doing as well as he is.

he was the main one to put all the plumbing together for the system. if something goes wrong i don't know what i will do. i designed it and he built it.

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/DSC08159.jpg

John also was instrumental in building the house. putting in all the doors and windows. installing the kitchen cabinets, and so much more.

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/DSC06404.jpg
happier days.

[Elliott]

sorry to read this, my condolences

[salty joe]

I'm also sorry to hear such sad news about your friend.

[salty joe]

What a bummer about the crosshatch.
Do you plan to perform a necropsy to try to determine cause of death? At least I'd get a look at the liver.

[kinlayan]

Very sorry to hear about all the Heartache
in private Aquariums triggerfish can live 15 years plus if all goes well, Did he jump out the Aquarium during the night, after his recluse behaviour?

[Sardaukar]

What a bummer about the crosshatch.
Do you plan to perform a necropsy to try to determine cause of death? At least I'd get a look at the liver.

...it sounds like the cause of death was jumping out of the tank...

[salty joe]

[QUOTE=Reefski's;16572977]
last friday the male was digging/clearing a bigger hole near his usual resting spot but more out in the open. then he went missing until my daughter spotted him a little while ago farther into the rock work near his usual spot. only his tail could barely be seen.

i have not changed anything in my feeding regime or anything else. all the other fish including the female Cross Hatch are acting normally.

he had not left the cave for almost a week. wednesday night when we went to bed he was still in the cave. thursday morning i left early while still dark to go out of town. my daughter went to feed the fish and found him laying on the floor all dried up and stiff.

he was my favorite fish.

why? prior to the last week of hiding he was not acting any differently.

QUOTE]

No, something was wrong before he jumped.

[Reefski's]

what Joe said. something had been wrong for almost a week before my daughter found him on the floor.

i have not seen him yet. i won't be home until sunday night. i had her put him in the freezer. she said there were no external indications anything was wrong with him.

i have had koi die before from fatty liver tumors. they were always very bloated from the tumor before they died. nothing like that with him.

i don't think i have the heart to cut him open. i do have a dissecting kit.

[kinlayan]

The Female crosshatch may now transition into a male now that the dominant male is gone, if that happens you can add perhaps a new female? and try pair them up?

[crsandoval]

That is terrible news on both fronts. I do have a male Bluejaw that I really cherish, although he started eating my chromis... He is about 6-7 inches and I think of him at T-Rex... Just he king of the tank. I have tried to pair him up with a female to no avail.

[crsaz]

if you dont mind me asking, where did you get those big white containers you are using as sumps?

[Reefski's]

i got mine from a LFS that was downsizing. i believe they are commonly called tomato bins. they hold about 160 gallons.

Carl

[Borge]

Hi, I was wondering about piping and sizes in the surge tanks.
What size of pipes are you using? I clearly see you got alot of flow in a ... large tank ;)

The only siphon break you got is the one from top of the siphon down to the wanted waterlevel, meaning you never reach the bottom of the siphon tube itself
Myself, I cannot seem to suck enough air before my pump is starting to fill up again past the air relief tube and prematurely start off my siphon to a equilibrium of my fill pump. Then I see that you use a much smaller relief pipe, witch may help siphon further past the air pipe?
Now I can see the head pressure is changed somewhat if you still use the "P" piping you showed earlier while still trying the borneman thing, feel a little confused on what your piping looks like right now.

I also see that you only go a a few inches below the surface of the tank with the endpipe; why not further down? I can see from my own tests that 2 feet below the surface my surge does almost nothing, not even stiring my sand a little (3' deep my tank), I think it is the head pressure working against my drop witch is close to 3 inches (box ontop my tank bracing), but maybe you can enlighten me some more on why you decided to go so shallow.

And lastly and the more important ;) why not only use surges instead of your OM (witch is fair enought cool in themselves, but got nothing on the surges buckets). Seems like a lot of holes, pipes, pumps un-needed if one were to make flow without anything else but a couple of lifting pumps straight from the sump. You got some perspective on that by now I believe ;) to me it is to much I dont know of yet and some education would be in place.

best regards

[FishTruck]

I have had triggers suddenly bloat and die before. When this occurs, they go from perfectly healthy, to bloated and reclusive, and then expire... all in about a week. I have thought it might be related to over eating or something like that.

[Reefski's]

Hi, I was wondering about piping and sizes in the surge tanks.
What size of pipes are you using? I clearly see you got alot of flow in a ... large tank ;)

The only siphon break you got is the one from top of the siphon down to the wanted waterlevel, meaning you never reach the bottom of the siphon tube itself
Myself, I cannot seem to suck enough air before my pump is starting to fill up again past the air relief tube and prematurely start off my siphon to a equilibrium of my fill pump. Then I see that you use a much smaller relief pipe, witch may help siphon further past the air pipe?
Now I can see the head pressure is changed somewhat if you still use the "P" piping you showed earlier while still trying the borneman thing, feel a little confused on what your piping looks like right now.

I also see that you only go a a few inches below the surface of the tank with the endpipe; why not further down? I can see from my own tests that 2 feet below the surface my surge does almost nothing, not even stiring my sand a little (3' deep my tank), I think it is the head pressure working against my drop witch is close to 3 inches (box ontop my tank bracing), but maybe you can enlighten me some more on why you decided to go so shallow.

And lastly and the more important ;) why not only use surges instead of your OM (witch is fair enought cool in themselves, but got nothing on the surges buckets). Seems like a lot of holes, pipes, pumps un-needed if one were to make flow without anything else but a couple of lifting pumps straight from the sump. You got some perspective on that by now I believe ;) to me it is to much I dont know of yet and some education would be in place.

best regards

the pipes from the surge tanks are 2".

the fall from the surge tanks is 5-7 feet. are you using the Borneman flapper or Carlson surge method? the 3" may be the problem. put it up a bit higher.

finally, all surges would be cool but even with two firing simultaneously sometimes there is a lot of water coming into the tank in a few seconds. you have to have a lot of space in the tank for that. i made the teeth of the overflows 3" tall and sometimes it is not enough and a little water overflows the tank.

look at the video from the top with the surges. it is back a few pages.

[Borge]

the pipes from the surge tanks are 2".

the fall from the surge tanks is 5-7 feet. are you using the Borneman flapper or Carlson surge method? the 3" may be the problem. put it up a bit higher.

finally, all surges would be cool but even with two firing simultaneously sometimes there is a lot of water coming into the tank in a few seconds. you have to have a lot of space in the tank for that. i made the teeth of the overflows 3" tall and sometimes it is not enough and a little water overflows the tank.

look at the video from the top with the surges. it is back a few pages.

I started off using carlson, see here on Norway we got a lack of cool joints like homedepot ;), but hey, I just ordered 4 fluidmasters and floaters to play with, so now I just wait for some shipping to occur.
I really like the non moving deal with carlsons but I cannot seem to make it work ok with my low ceiling. 3" is max, I made a high steel stand, and is paying for it now. About any bucket of decent size have to sit ontop my aquarium.

As asked earlier, why do you put your output pipes so shallow, what were to happen if you put them halfway down your tank?
I to can make quite the stir at the surface but my problems is when going 2' below the surface with the output, but with your head pressure pushing down, that would in my mind make it work... or?


Yes, I can clearly see that the tank got to be higher than the waterlevel, but I had to try my latest fixture, overflowed everything, heh, my skimmer is tankfed ;D now imagine that. I had to test it!
But what do you think were to happen if you turned off your OMs now and just ran it with the Surges?

[Reefski's]

Hi, I was wondering about piping and sizes in the surge tanks.
What size of pipes are you using? I clearly see you got alot of flow in a ... large tank ;)

The only siphon break you got is the one from top of the siphon down to the wanted waterlevel, meaning you never reach the bottom of the siphon tube itself
Myself, I cannot seem to suck enough air before my pump is starting to fill up again past the air relief tube and prematurely start off my siphon to a equilibrium of my fill pump. Then I see that you use a much smaller relief pipe, witch may help siphon further past the air pipe?
Now I can see the head pressure is changed somewhat if you still use the "P" piping you showed earlier while still trying the borneman thing, feel a little confused on what your piping looks like right now.

I also see that you only go a a few inches below the surface of the tank with the endpipe; why not further down? I can see from my own tests that 2 feet below the surface my surge does almost nothing, not even stiring my sand a little (3' deep my tank), I think it is the head pressure working against my drop witch is close to 3 inches (box ontop my tank bracing), but maybe you can enlighten me some more on why you decided to go so shallow.

And lastly and the more important ;) why not only use surges instead of your OM (witch is fair enought cool in themselves, but got nothing on the surges buckets). Seems like a lot of holes, pipes, pumps un-needed if one were to make flow without anything else but a couple of lifting pumps straight from the sump. You got some perspective on that by now I believe ;) to me it is to much I dont know of yet and some education would be in place.

best regards

the pipes from the surge tanks are 2".

the fall from the surge tanks is 5-7 feet. are you using the Borneman flapper or Carlson surge method? the 3" may be the problem. put it up a bit higher.

finally, all surges would be cool but even with two firing simultaneously sometimes there is a lot of water coming into the tank in a few seconds. you have to have a lot of space in the tank for that. i made the teeth of the overflows 3" tall and sometimes it is not enough and a little water overflows the tank.

look at the video from the top with the surges. it is back a few pages.

[Reefski's]

I am breaking my tank down but I am not quitting!

I have been depressed the last few months. John dying, my business dying, my tank dying. The first two I can’t really do anything about but the tank I can.

As we all know the economy has been brutal the last couple of years. My roofing business has been struggling to survive the poor economy and high Work Comp rates. Work Comp makes more on my business than I do, by far. I pay 127% of payroll to work comp. I have a couple of the crew that have been injured over the last few years. Roofing is the 7th most dangerous job in America.

One just had a work related injury and knee surgery a couple weeks ago and will be out for a couple of months if not longer. It is hard to compete when I have to charge so much more on every job than other contractors, even licensed contractors. I just lost a job I bid for $11,000. the other licensed contractors bid was $10,000. the unlicensed guy was $8,000. guess who she hired? And I am making the least profit of the three.

We have been trying to decide if we have to sell our house and downsize. We may still have to do that but for now we will try to hang on. We love the house and it is very unlikely any buyer would love the reef tank and (now empty) koi pond and want to keep them. The pond can pretty easily become a pool so that is not a big deal. The reef system is another thing. If/when we do sell the house I will have to make the garage back into a garage. At least mostly if not totally dismantle all aquarium equipment in the garage. Some have suggested to empty the tank too and make it a terrarium or something like that which would be much easier to take care of. It could be a great terrarium with the skylight above. That is a future discussion.

However, I can’t give up yet. we are going to dismantle the tank, take out the quartz sand, all hydroid covered rocks and reaquascape the system. Now is the time when there are no corals to speak of in the tank.

My newest problem.

here is something else to think about besides the energy use and aesthetics with the CL vs PH debate.
SERVICING

i have just noticed that both of the closed loops in my tank which are connected to OceansMotions 4 ways have stopped rotating the Om 4 ways. now i have some low flow areas that are accumulating cyano.

In turning the pumps off and back on to get the OM’s working again one of the Hammerhead pumps has now gotten jammed and stopped working too!

There are six valves to shut off for each pump. Five turned off easily, one won’t budge. I am afraid to force it and break the seal with the bottom of the tank and that nightmare.

in my case they are plumbed through the bottom of the tank they all have valves so they can be serviced but it is a major pain to disassemble them, an all day project for someone that is good at plumbing and that guy for me is not available any more.

for now i have connected a couple of Tunze pumps in the tank to help somewhat while i decide what to do. The one CL is still working but in a fixed position.
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/DSC06005.jpg

i think they may have gotten jammed about 3-4 weeks ago when i turned off the pumps for a while to work in the tank and the OM4W did not come back on.

after working in the tank I flipped the switch and saw there was water flow but didn't notice if the OM’s were not revolving as they should have.

So half of the pipes have no or very little water flow through them. What kind of die off and pollution is waiting in the pipes?

i am not sure what i am going to do about that.

One of my goals is to make the tank more energy efficient. I am thinking of eliminating the Closed loops and going with the ugliness and energy efficiency of power heads in the tank.

I could use one of the closed loop pumps just under the tank to pump to the surges. That would save about 8 feet of head to overcome and give much more flow to the surges.

I turned on the pump that was feeding the surge tanks to just go into the DT. However that much more water pumping through the sumps caused the water level to drop. The pass throughs between the bins can’t handle that much flow. So I have turned off the skimmer pump which was pumping water through that same loop through the sumps.




Here are some photos from my old tank. It wasn’t perfect but all corals weren’t dying either.
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/blueacroPocillapora.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/staghornacromother.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/Monticaporangemother.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/monticapmothergreen.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_4330.jpg

In this tank I had never tested PO4 until just about the end when I got a Hanna C200 colorimeter. PO4 levels were above the range of the colorimeter which is 2.75 ppm.

Nitrates were about 20 ppm

I also used NSW exclusively for years as well as the CaCl and MgCl and MgSO4, and CaOH that I have used in the 700 gallon.

This tank also had the concrete blocks that some have questioned.

I still have this sand from this tank. It is in trash cans awaiting its fate. If it is contaminated with CaPO4 can I test for that by dissolving some of the sand in HCL and testing for PO4? Will this leach back into the system at tank pH?

[Reefski's]

I sold my PAR meter and am getting the new MQ-200 model which has data logging.
Each meter can store up to 99 manually recorded measurements. In automatic mode, measurements are made every 30 seconds and averages are stored every 30 minutes. Daily totals are also calculated and the past 99 days are recorded.

These meters still feature our innovative blue lens for improved spectral response along with our cosine-corrected head, self-cleaning characteristics, and long-term stability.


It will be interesting to see the amount of light over time with the data logging. I haven’t gotten the new meter yet.

Jaki and Mudslinger-thank you for the info about Daniel Knops tank issues with the mold paint. That is the type of paint I have in the garage and surge closet. These rooms have been largely closed up for the last few months of winter too.

I had my painter come by yesterday and like Daniel Knop we are going to repaint with a latex paint, I hope it is the tuning point for me as well.

I am going to get 2000 gallons of water from Catalina Water. That way I will have whatever I need to use to work on the tank and do a complete water change over a short time which hopefully will remove any toxic contaminants.

I just changed the carbon yesterday too. I took out the GFO from one and have both large fluidized filters full of AC.

I am going to put one or two of these in the living room while we do this work.
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/LRholdingtank.jpg

While the tank is empty I will get the scratches buffed out.

Input needed!

I really want to reconsider if the closed loops are the best.
Ease of maintenance, water flow, esthetics, and energy efficiency are all part of the equation.

Also the hydroids problem. What do you think of this idea? Take out the rocks, inspect each one and torch the hydroids. Leave this rock in the sumps for filtration or? I have quite a bit of rock in the sumps that doesn’t have the hydroids that can go into the DT as well. Not all DT rocks have hydroids but a lot do.

Remove the limestone rock from the tank. This rock was given to me by a tank maintenance guy that I did a roof job for. It was dry and sitting in his backyard in a pile. Who knows what kind of contamination they might have had. They are very dense.

The sand- remove the quartz sand and replace with a less deep sand bed of larger size that won’t move with surges. The surges are off now but after I paint the closet and if stuff starts to grow again I will turn them back on.

Pam would like to go bare bottom for the ease of cleaning the tank without worrying so much about scratching the tank. I don’t think so. She says we have enough sand and filtration in the other parts of the system. Thoughts? I just don’t think it looks right and then there is the ecology thing too!

That’s all for now.

[Reefski's]

What a bummer about the crosshatch.
Do you plan to perform a necropsy to try to determine cause of death? At least I'd get a look at the liver.



while out cycling today i was thinking about what could have killed the fish.

is this a possibility?

i feed all sorts of stuff from the fish market i grind up and freeze. one of the elements is whole fresh shrimp, 4-5" shrimp put through a food processor including the tails. big pieces of the tail remain in the mix. in the feeding frenzy could he have eaten one of these pieces that hurt him in some way?

can fish vomit? of course i have seen them take a piece of feces or something else that wasn't food and then spit it out.

he was the most aggressive feeder and got pretty much whatever he wanted.

i have the fish in the freezer where my daughter put it when she found it. it had not eaten in six days when it jumped out.

i have a scalpel and could do a crude autopsy. weird, i just don't want to cut it up. my little buddy. weird because i have taken several anatomy classes with humans that we cut up for months. while i didn't relish it i don't remember being particularly squeamish either. i never knew these people that had donated their bodies so that we could learn.

might there be something to learn by doing it?

what would i look for examining the liver?

[jc-reef]

I am rather new to the hobby...I have been buried in many of these threads over the course of the past several months. I must say that the journey of your build has been quite inspiring....the success's and the heartaches. I have thorougly enjoyed reading your build...from the techincal aspect all the way to the personal side as well. I have been bitten by the 'reef' bug to say the least and hope someday I will be able to contribute back to the hobby like you, along with many others, have. Thank you! :beer:

jc

[salty joe]

I just looked at Jay Hemdal's book Avanced Marine Aquarium Techniques and it looks like you need to perform a fish necropsy almost immediately after death to get much info. You might still be able to tell if it had fatty liver disease. First you would need to know what a healthy liver looks like. I've never done a necropsy-it seems like good practice though. From Hemdal's book it seems you have to be prepared for a necropsy before a fish dies. If you suspect the fish went mad and jumped because something was lodged in its throat, that should be easy to confirm or discount.

[Reeftanks6]

Wow beautiful tank! How big was your old tank in the above pictures?

[Reefski's]

I am rather new to the hobby...I have been buried in many of these threads over the course of the past several months. I must say that the journey of your build has been quite inspiring....the success's and the heartaches. I have thorougly enjoyed reading your build...from the techincal aspect all the way to the personal side as well. I have been bitten by the 'reef' bug to say the least and hope someday I will be able to contribute back to the hobby like you, along with many others, have. Thank you! :beer:

jc

thank you! sometimes i will post and no one comments and i feel like no one is out there. it is fun sharing the ups and downs. i like photography too and still can improve greatly in that area.

[Reefski's]

I just looked at Jay Hemdal's book Avanced Marine Aquarium Techniques and it looks like you need to perform a fish necropsy almost immediately after death to get much info. You might still be able to tell if it had fatty liver disease. First you would need to know what a healthy liver looks like. I've never done a necropsy-it seems like good practice though. From Hemdal's book it seems you have to be prepared for a necropsy before a fish dies. If you suspect the fish went mad and jumped because something was lodged in its throat, that should be easy to confirm or discount.

i have done a little fish dissection. i have taken a course by the AKCA about all aspects of Koi keeping. in the labs we did dissect Koi.

if i had been here when it happened i still probably couldn't have done it. the fish is still in the freezer though and one day when i have more time...

[Reefski's]

Wow beautiful tank! How big was your old tank in the above pictures?

thank you, that tank was 260 gallons. i just recently sold it and it is getting buffed out and should be a nice tank again for the new owner.

[Reefski's]

here are some comments By Eric Borneman posted in another thread.

Oh. My. God.

Now, being aware of all this, I should be less shocked than I am. You never mentioned the limestone rocks, or, if you did, I forgot. This is a big deal. Just out of curiosity, does it look sort of like this?

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.awbeck.com/kanosh/full/lace.JPG&imgrefurl=http://www.awbeck.com/kanosh/product.html&usg=__WN4_lHlI4pG_wmZuQcCMoffTDi8=&h=432&w=600&sz=34&hl=en&start=3&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=lsWm8HY8V_AQ-M:&tbnh=97&tbnw=135&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dlace%2Brock%2Blandscaping%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dsafari%26sa%3DN%26rls%3Den%26tb s%3Disch:1


I'm not even sure where to begin, except that I think what you are doing is probably the right thing. I think you will uncover and fix the one or multiple issues that exist.

Here's what I think, and I say this despite the fact that I know others use these things, may be successful and not have problems, and may disagree with me. I say this because I have been down that road personally or been involved with these issues with others more times than I care to think.

Closed loops and the valves and plumbing. Ditch 'em. Ditch 'em all. I did the closed loop thing because when that idea first came out, it seemed to be a good solution to getting more flow in a tank given that powerheads at the time sucked so badly for larger tanks. But, the idea of using big expensive high power draw pumps to push water through lots of toxic PVC, splitting it and having tons of pipes that get filled with all manner of growth is dumb and wasteful and overly complex and past its time. It all needs regular maintenance that is rarely if ever done because of what a PITA it is to do it. The valves everyone uses - straight valves - are horrible. They always get stuck over periods of time. I wouldn't use another straight valve in a tank if you paid me.

Your paint. It was definitely a good catch and something I am very careful with. I either use epoxy paint or epoxy clear coat anything anywhere near the tanks. I would not use latex in a closed area with seawater or on anything that is over the water without an epoxy clear coat. Latex paints also have mildew resistants in them and they peel.

Your sand. As you know, I thought that sand was an issue from the start. Everyone I know that has used that sand has the same issues. Despite people saying "oh, I have it and it's fine...it will work...it has life in it....it is functional," I have never seen a sand bed look like it should using that sand and the cyano and the reduced porosity and the life in the sand is almost invariably the same. Can you use your old sand? You know, I don't know. I don't know what airborne contaminants might have accumulated. You live in a big toxic city with smog. So do I. If I had a container of sand sitting outside for a year or more, I wouldn't use it. That's just me, and maybe I'm wrong. As to your questions, those are easy to answer. Take some sand and put an inch in a glass of tank water, and another in an inch of distilled freshwater and let it sit for a week. Measure the phosphate in the water before adding the sand and then after a week in each glass and see if anything happens. As for the real carbonate sand you have in the tanks, I would reuse it. I would use a bin or bucket and put about 6-8 inches of sand in it, and then use tank water you are going to replace to do several rinses and then sift through it to make sure there are no other screws or other foreign objects in there. Add at least a few inches of seawater above the sand level, throw a powerhead in there, and then let it sit while you do the rest of the work.

On the rock. Rock is cheap, and rock repopulates. Torching it it the places it needs to rid it of hydroids is fine in my book. I think you will have plenty of diversity left that it will be fine. After torching, you can toss it in the sand bins and cover with water and keep the water flow running (may have to add more water to cover it).

On the concrete blocks and the limestone rock. Use the blocks to stand on while you are working and then stack them in the garage. Take the limestone rocks out and use them for landscaping. I bought some West Texas lace rock (old coral reef limestone) from a rock yard and not only did nothing want to grow on it, the tank always had issues. I thought at the time, "hmmm limestone, nice big holes, heavy and will make a sound foundation and will be great. How ingenious of me." It sucked. I even tried using a single really pretty piece after scrapping the rest as landscaping, and it caused issues in that tank even with a single piece. After removing it, issues disappeared. I don't know what it is, I could speculate, but don't care. Learned my lesson and moved on.

On your water. I don't really care that you had a nice tank before using coastal water. Don't know if it was the issue or part of the issue with this tank. I wouldn't put LA coastal water in my tank any more than I would put Texas coastal water in my tank. I think artificial salts suck, but I am pretty sure they don't have pesticides and pollutants and herbicides and phthlates in them. Unless I had access to really clear filtered NSW (to 0.5 microns), I wouldn't use it.

So, that's all for now. More as it comes to me. Take my advice with whatever grain of salt you want. I'm happy you are doing this, and I want to see you happy, despite all the effort and money and stress and issues you have been through. And, just another thing to you and Pam. If possible at all, please don't sell that house. It is just too beautiful. It suits you, it's part of you in more ways than one, and I cannot imagine you in another house unless you were leaving the area. To think of someone else living in the fruits of your labor and work and decisions, from the layout, to the floors, to the pond/pool, to the area, to the solar panels. It's too nice to let anyone but your family enjoy. Just adjust the dang motion sensor timers in the bathroom!

>>thanks for the encouragement and kind words. that means a lot to us. Pam and I read the last paragraph with a tear in our eyes. we would be very sad if it comes to selling the house but if it comes to that we can build something smaller but just as nice, (smaller house, better tank) next time. or we could sell the house and travel the world for the rest of our lives instead of working the next 30 years to pay for the house. learn to dive at my advanced age, do some volunteer work, decisions, decisions. or our daughter and her family, (she doesn't have one yet) live with us and help pay the bills, and that would be great. she is just about to graduate from UCLA grad school and become a Social Worker, she has a job starting in August. her first "real" job.<<

Carl (and Pam), your alternative scenario is the other option and a good one if that is something you two would do. I am sure that would be terribly rewarding and life changing, and to me (and Brandee) what our other alternative would be, as well (were it not for a whole lot of animals right now). There is a lot to be said for the stability and comfort of a home you love, and a lot to be said for experiencing this amazing world and all its cultures and sights to behold. I wouldn't trade my/our expereinces abroad for anything but you have to like doing it. As for diving - even snorkeling - you will find it far surpasses any reef aquarium (cheaper, too!), but you will also be faced with the same heartaches and disappointments the more you see as you witness some magnificent awe-inspiring reef and then see another so degraded that it makes you despair for our oceans and reefs. But, in a way, just another version of almost everything around us, including your current situation.

>>but for now... on to the rebuild

the limestone is solid without holes and very dense, so it is different than in the photo you linked to above. i reread the large tank issue of Coral magazine about Atlantis Marine World where Joe used 75% limestone. i will take it out of my tank though and use it in the yard. you didn't miss that, i don't think i ever mentioned that before about the limestone.<<

Joe is an outrageously good aquarist, but in your comparison to Atlantis (and previously to Long Beach), you have to remember you are dealing with a totally different scale and beast in a display like that. There is a staff. I don't see you wanting to jump in the tank with a freshwater hose to spray off AEFW's. He's had nudibranchs. Public aquariums have deaths and replacements, just like home aquarists. In good ones, they are impressive but the good ones are few and far between, and I think some of the alternative materials and chosen for practicality or due to the sheer size of needs of the display rather than being the ideal choice. Spend some time dealing with one or the head aquarist, and you'll hear of all the nightmares that happen due to all manner of things, from staff issues to budget issues to administration issues. I don't know what limestone he used, and some limestone should theoretically be fine and especially when diluted to the extent it is. He uses Lanthium so there are still phosphate issues Everything is not always what it seems despite the visual end result.

>>i was looking at the rock in the tank last night and there is a lot of Hydroids to kill but also a lot of different Corallines, and different snails that only come out at night, and tubeworms and fanworms, and... i think there will be some good rock to use again. it is interesting that the coralines are on the shadier parts of the rock and the more top light exposed parts are more algae dominated. the white PVC returns are still white on the tops but coraline covered on the sides and bottoms.<<

Not surprising - many types of corallines and many if not most are more shade species - the ones that do well in the high light high flow are usually of fewer types, even if much larger total area covered and in coverage/calcification. The question is why those seem to be missing for you. I think if you use one of the microtorches, you can be accurate enough to get the areas you want without disturbing too much of the desirables if you get it back in water afterwards.

>>tangent- how does nitrate reduction occur in coraline covered rock? how does it penetrate the rock. how deep in the rock does denitrification occur? <<

I know Ron has made this argument, and I have not seen convincing data for aquariums but there is plenty in the literature. Much of the live rock we get is literally mostly solid coralline. I do not buy that coralline "seals" the rock, and there is and should be sufficient porosity that it is essentially irrelevant. Every study I have read indicates plenty of life, every piece of rock I have broken is not at all sterile inside, often with reductive grey areas. Everytime I turkey baste rock that looks covered in coralline, plumes of detritus and boring and carbonate come blowing out, often on the complete opposite side or at some odd angle from the borings and tunnels in the rock which is not at all coralline covered (being in the dark interior). Coralline itself is porous, too, and acts to support other epilithic species on it, around it, and under it. Coral skeleton is home to bejillions of algal, microbial, fungal, and other life, and that has a living barrier to entrance with the coral tissue. So, I don't think you have to worry.

>>i may get a couple of hundred pounds of rock just in from Fiji and cure it myself to add some more diversity. this rock can just go into the sumps after curing.

when i was at one of the wholesalers near LAX a few weeks ago i asked about the many dozens of boxes of LR stacked in the back of the warehouse. i was told that it sits out like that until it is sold still in the shipping boxes. it is little wonder there isn't much life left in it. they get new shipments about every three weeks. if i get rock from them i would be there when it first comes into the warehouse so i could get it curing at my place immediately.<<

Yes, this is one of the ultimate tragedies of live rock harvest is the horrible treatment it gets. Blasted of life on site, shipped dry, no effort to preserve the diversity and then usually cured in unlit, ammonia filled, yellow water to kill off what remains. I again rely on others to provide insight as to any good sources as I haven't had the need to buy any - fortunately before this practice began to keep costs so low. I did get one special shipment from Fiji about eight years ago and it was really nice, but was a special order direct from the source.

>>when you said you would not use our coastal water are you saying even from Catalina Water Company? i need a lot of water over a short period of time to change out. what do you think of getting the 2000 gallons for use during the redo and then making my own after that? <<

I meant the coastal water you were using. In terms of Catalina water, I have never had access to it or used it and would rely on your west coast groups for the verdict. It had been my impression when it was first available that it was superior to ASW but expensive. I know it was used in some earlier conference displays and the end of the conference results were not much better than the new ASW results that preceded it. In contrast, it seemed NutriSea tanks looked pretty good by comparison. But this is an observation made on the effects of throwing a bunch of new livestock into tanks set up for an event with new water and looking at the results 3-4 days later. I wouldn't make a judgement for long term use based on those extreme criteria.

>>the quartz sand from http://www.reefsand.com/ that i used was and is still being sold as aragonite. it is the Marine sand #0 grade. i never got any help from the company to replace the sand. i think i have a strong case against them for false claims but how would i pursue it. they are in florida and i am in Los Angeles.<<

Point well made. But hey, there was SOME carbonate in there.

>>i have not spoken to them in about a year since you told me that it was not aragonite. now i could tell the difference but i was naive and trusting that i got what they advertised it as. when i pointed out to the owner of the company that the website was misrepresenting the sand he just discounted that saying that people should know what they are getting when the title says Marine sand, nevermind it says aragonite in the description of benefits.<<

Why am I not surprised?

>>within seconds of seeing my tank Eric saw that the sand was quartz.<<

I was actually surprised as much dissolved in acid as it did but there was a lot of quartz!

>>i will get rid of the closed loops and use one of the intakes for pumping to the surges. they shoud flow twice as much with the decreased head of not pumping from the garage.<<

You don't have to - remember, it just my opinion and experience. I would up using athreaded plugs on some with silicone to seal the threads, and the other I foresaw and easy water change opportunity and put a valve there. Never used it, but it seems/seemed like a good idea at the time and might be useful.

>>how to patch the holes? a piece of acryic glued over the nine holes or leave in the bulkheads and cap them off? more questions about circulation and powerheads later.<<

As mentioned I left the bulkheads in place and used threaded plugs

the skimmer is off right now.

Or thinking about that i wonder if i could replumb the skimmer to be fed by the overflow? i have the two overflow areas in the tank. there are 5 2" pipes total but most of the flow in each one is with a siphon and the other three are backup. it could flow about 5000 gph into the skimmer from the overflow.

would that work?

eliminating another pump would save another 250 watts per hour.

it would have to have a bypass so it could be skimming or just go to the sump.

my system has been using 5 Reeflo Hammerhead pumps each at 250 watts. if i eliminate the two closed loop and skimmer pumps i could have one pump return from the sumps and one of the old closed loop pumps directly under the tank pumping to the surge tanks. have better flow with three less big pumps with adding a couple of Tunzes that i already have into the DT for additional flow.

a couple other things.

the epoxy paint. my painter doesn't know anything about using epoxy paint. Daniel Knop used Latex when painting over his mold resistant paint. isn't that good enough? high sheen, low sheen? i am still on a budget, a budget of credit cards.

here's another thought, possible source of toxic fumes. all the aluminum in the skylight shaft was put in with contact cement and screwed down too. the sun is very intense in the shaft. could there be off gassing of contact cement stuff after two years?

[Reeftanks6]

Wow that must have been a great tank. But this one i ams sure you like it 10 times more. Beautiful tank!

[Reefski's]

here is some odd behavioir from the Pink Tail Trigger. why?

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/th_triggeroddbehavior1.jpg (http://s93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/?action=view&current=triggeroddbehavior1.flv)

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/th_triggeroddbehavior2.jpg (http://s93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/?action=view&current=triggeroddbehavior2.flv)

[matt & pam]

How is your tank grounded? any stray currents?

[Reefski's]

i don't have grounds in the tank. the tanks system uses several 20 amp circuits.

i put my fingers in the tank a couple times a day while feeding. i have had shorts in powerheads before and i know what that feels like. i suppose if it was a small voltage leak i wouldn't feel it.

i have a voltage meter and could check it.


Carl

[Reeftanks6]

That is some weird thing that your pinktail trigger is doing. Never seen that before. But I have heard about triggers doing it, never seen it.

[Reefski's]

SantaMonica (3/8/2010)[hr]This might be a good time to really consider a non-waterchange algae-only system. Start it out lightly-loaded using what you have left, and add from there.

I'm at 1.5 years of no waterchanges. And after adding my second scrubber, I can now dose (as of this week) 6 ml per day of liquid food per day (equivalent to 90 ml for your system) and still get totally clear Salifert P, and almost totally clear N. And of course this is in addition to feeding the fish and the eel.

10 of my scrubbers would be only a single 50 X 22 sheet for you, and maybe could fit into your light shaft, or on top of the display. It could then drain directly into your display, surge or not. Would therefore require no lighting power, and if you used an existing circulation pump, no flow power.

Not only would your water be as low in nutrients as it could be, but you'd also be feeding everything, as well as removing any metals of concern, even if metals are still being introduced.

i have been thinking along these lines too. how i could use some of the return water from the surge closet over a screen before dumping into the tank. it would have to be something like a big plastic tray on a slant with screen material that would be easy to clean. it could be 36"x 36"-48"or so.

by using one of the pumps just under the tank for the surge instead of the closed loops i can get a lot more volume of water pumped to the surges instead of pumping all the way from the garage.

i could T off some of the flow to the ATS for continuous water flow over it. maybe direct one of the two surges onto the screen as well or just both of them to the tank. hmmm...

[techreef]

In regard to something Eric Borneman wrote to you Reefski, when did PVC get labeled "toxic?" I thought it was inert? I can see issues for sure with uncured solvent or cleaner, but once it's cured, I thought it was all safe. Is this along the same lines as the toxic Rubbermaid Brute cans?

[Reefski's]

i think Eric was referring to the spaflex PVC which is a little different that regular PVC.

[Last Version]

Montipora very beautiful! nice pics.

[Znut Reefer]

Sorry to hear about your friend. I hope you'll get things worked out with your tank. Hang in there.

[PaPa_Johnny]

Reefski, have you seen Paul B's thread? he has an algae scrubber, albeit on a much smaller scale, that has worked for years for him. I'm not sure how you would adapt to your tank but just a thought.

[Reefski's]

i have read some of his thread but don't remember a scrubber.

one of the few survivors-
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_3744.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_3772.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_3770.jpg

i have had the Cpperband for about 3.5 years

the sailfin for about 6 years

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_3725.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_3781.jpg

[salty joe]

That is odd behaviour by the pinktail. Maybe someone from one of the fish forums would know about it.

[Reefski's]

no one has any comments or explanation of the Trigger behavior?

i went to the paint store yesterday and spoke with them about my situation. this is what they recommended. i think i will use it in the garage and the surge closet.

www.mythicpaint.com in the semigloss. about $45 a gallon.

no VOC's

Carl

[techreef]

$45/gallon??? ouch! is that what all of the low/no offgassing paints cost?

[lostintheocean]

thats great you took in the that dog, he is one lucky pup. good looking to. Thats a crazy tank, nice work

[StripestheEel]

here is some odd behavioir from the Pink Tail Trigger. why?

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/th_triggeroddbehavior1.jpg (http://s93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/?action=view&current=triggeroddbehavior1.flv)

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/th_triggeroddbehavior2.jpg (http://s93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/?action=view&current=triggeroddbehavior2.flv)

The only time I have witnessed that with Triggers is under severe stress.

Eg; just purchasing the fish and acclimatising in buckets etc.

One thing I did notice was that the tank did not have much surface agitation and some scum build up on the surface.

Were you running pumps when you took the vid? Maybe it is a lack of oxygenation???

Something to think about perhaps.

[salty joe]

Do you use carbon? If VOCs and other organic toxins are a concern, carbon might be a big help.

[Reefski's]

the surface stuff was just after stirring up the tank while sucking up debris during a water change. i have seen the same behavior another time recently on another day without the tank work. the overflow from the DT tank adds a lot of air. there is a lot of water motion in the tank as well. i don't think it is the oxygen levels.

he is still acting normally this morning. no change in appetite or other behavior. all other fish acting normally.

i always run carbon and have just recently gone from one to two large fluidized beds.

now that the weather is warming up i can open the garage more and get more fresh air flowing around the system.

[Reefski's]

i love the two urchins but they are ruining the tank with their bite marks. i think when i rebuild the tank i will relocate them to one of the glass tanks. they graze a swatch of LR leaving nothing behind.
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_3822.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_3260.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_3709.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_3714.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_3829.jpg

Carl

[Reefski's]

the bite marks. i don't remember which one did this. i think it was the Diadema but i am not sure.

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/urchinbitesacrylic2.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/urchinacrylicbites.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/urchinbiteacrylic3.jpg

[Reefski's]

i got the new PAR meter. i haven't set it up with the computer yet to do the tracking over time. these reading were taken about 9:30am yesterday. sunny day outside. i don't think light is the problem, unless it is too much for new corals coming into the system. of course these levels fluctuate throughout the day as the sun moves across the sky. it can go up and down as the light reflects off the shaft at different angles.

you can see these readings are at the surface. i will attach the probe to the pvc piping like the previous meter so i can hold it underwater in a good position.

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_3845.jpg

the light fluctuates even over a couple of minutes.
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_3847.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/IMG_3846.jpg

[porthios]

just had to make all our par meters look bad, didn't ya?

can't wait to see the data after you've had a chance to log a bit..

[matt & pam]

I was amazed at the coraline growth after my tuxedo urchin was out of my tank.

[Reefski's]

so what do you do with two urchins that are too big for a 700 gallon system? i can't turn them loose! they both love the coraline and the algae!

[erics3000]

Lfs