what are signs of too much amino acid dosing??

[jlinzmaier]

I've been dosing hefty amounts of AA's lately in an attempt to improve coral growth. The growth has improved in many corals but I'm also seeing some limited polyp ext and some basal necrosis on a few SPS. Just wondering if anyone else has experienced this due to AA dosing??

Water params are rock solid and all within normal limits. The only reason I'm looking towards the AA's as causing the problem is because that's the only major change I've made recently. At the very least I'll be holding AA dosing for a while and then restarting at a much lower dose to see what happens. I would assume the first signs of too much AA dosing would be increased algae growth but I've had no increase in algae growth, po4, or no3 levels. For the last week and a half I've been dosing 150% of the recommended dosing on the bottle thinking the first indicator of overdose would be teh typical signs of excess nutrients. I had previously been dosing 100% of recommended bottle dose for over 6 months without difficulty. Just wanted to see if an increase would increase growth rates and it has. I'm just not sure if the AA increase is causing the trouble or if I should investigate elsewhere.

Anyone else experienced limited polyp ext and tissue loss when dosing large amounts of AA's??

Thanks.

Jeremy

[HighlandReefer]

Jeremy,

If you dose too much amino acids this can lead to bacterial blooms, which can have an adverse effect on corals and fish. You haven't seen any signs of clear to whitish growth on your glass instead of the normal green algae growth. This may be one of the first signs you will notice.

[jlinzmaier]

I'm already running a bacterial driven system - zeo. I've seen no further signs of excess bacterial bloom.

Jeremy

[bertoni]

Since the nutrient levels are okay, and the bacterial situation is under control, I'm not sure that the amino acids are the problem. Does the system have a skimmer? There might be somewhat higher nutrient levels than before the dosing, which I suppose might necessitate a bit of acclimation. For the moment, I'd go back to the lower feeding level.

[tmz]

I don't dose them very heavily. Even with low NO3 and PO4, I suppose extra AAs could increase TOC( total organic carbon) which may be linked to out of balance growth by the coral's bacteria. Unfortunately tests are not readily available for hobbyist use for TOC.

This article may be of interset:

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2008/9/aafeature2

[jlinzmaier]

Thanks guys.

Yes I do have a skimmer - reeflo orca 250.

Sounds like the AA's aren't the likely cause so I'll investigate further.

Appreciate the help!

Jeremy

[jlinzmaier]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15148969#post15148969 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by tmz
I don't dose them very heavily. Even with low NO3 and PO4, I suppose extra AAs could increase TOC( total organic carbon) which may be linked to out of balance growth by the coral's bacteria. Unfortunately tests are not readily available for hobbyist use for TOC.

This article may be of interset:

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2008/9/aafeature2

Finally got to reading the article Tom. It's quite good and very pertinent to my situation. The info has definately encouraged me to decrease my AA dosing. This last paragraph was particularly interesting.



Finally, the goal of identifying approaches to halt incidents of coral mortality in reef tanks may benefit from data collection from "sick" tanks rather than the healthy aquaria examined in this study. If tanks undergoing coral crashes have an unusually high (or low) amount of TOC in the water but otherwise have acceptable water parameters, then a new and otherwise unappreciated villain will be in hand. Under these circumstances, what can the aquarist do? One experiment described by Ferrier-Pagès on Galaxea provides food for thought. Specimens of this coral were treated with the combined antibiotics penicillin, streptomycin, and amphotericin; subsequent bacterial uptake of DOC, which Rohwer identified as a mechanism for coral mortality when occurring in excess, ceased.

My heavy AA dosing may very well be encouraging the growth of some unwanted and detrimental pathogen growth causing adverse affects on the corals. The AA's may well not be causing a problem but the fuel they provide for other pathogens may be quite detrimental.

Thanks again.

Jeremy

[tmz]

You are welcome Jeremy.
It's an eye opener; a new villian indeed.. What concerns me the suggestion that skimmers may remove less TOC than we think particularly for those of us dosing carbon .Gac still gets pretty good marks though. I'd like to know more about antibiotics for corals myself, if you pick up on anything.

[jlinzmaier]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15151376#post15151376 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by tmz
You are welcome Jeremy.
It's an eye opener; a new villian indeed.. What concerns me the suggestion that skimmers may remove less TOC than we think particularly for those of us dosing carbon .Gac still gets pretty good marks though. I'd like to know more about antibiotics for corals myself, if you pick up on anything.

Yeah the whole skimmer vs GAC for organic removal was quite surprising in that study. I'm not about to ditch my $1,200 skimmer and replace it with a canister filter, but the study sure raises questions. I guess it would be easy enough to test a skimmer vs GAC under more controlled circumstances by simply having two large tanks with only water (one with a skimmer and one with GAC) and adding equal amounts of dissolved organics then testing TOC levels over a period of time.

If anyone is willing to donate two large tanks, a skimmer, and some complex testing equipment to test for TOC, I'll be happy to run this little experiment. I've got the carbon. LOL!!!!

I'll be sure to let you know if I come across any other related studies about TOC testing or antibiotic treatment for those mysterious infections.

Jeremy

[HighlandReefer]

jlinzmaier,

If you do a search for coral diseases, you will be surprised at how many different types of bacteria, fungi, virus, dinos & Mycoplasma are out there. Not to mention intereaction between cells that cause problems for corals.

This is a good linik for a general description on some of the stuff out there.

http://coris.noaa.gov/about/diseases/

[jlinzmaier]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15151705#post15151705 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by HighlandReefer
jlinzmaier,

If you do a search for coral diseases, you will be surprised at how many different types of bacteria, fungi, virus, dinos & Mycoplasma are out there. Not to mention intereaction between cells that cause problems for corals.

This is a good linik for a general description on some of the stuff out there.

http://coris.noaa.gov/about/diseases/

Thanks.

It hadn't previously occurred to me that dosing the AA's could fuel unwanted pathogen growth that can infect and harm corals. Kind of an ah-ha moment!!

Jeremy

[tmz]

Not just patheogens. It might also encourage symbiont bacterial growth to a point of imbalance.

Thanks for the link Cliff. Handy reference.Not much on treatment options though.

I'm not throwing away my skimmers either but I am running carbon and purigen. I'm thinking about trying ozone. I have the generator but need to build a reactor to insure safe and useful dosing.

In one of Randy's articles on ozone , he notes a study wherein gac removed TOC at about a 34% rate , ozone removed 0% but gac and ozone used together removed about 70%. Perhaps attributable to ozone breaking organic chains into those with more affinity for carbon. It's just one study though.

[tatuvaaj]

I would be very careful with AA dosing as there are many potential problems with AA overdose. For example, DFAAs can inhibit feeding, disrupt symbiont/host signaling and reduce denitrification. Personally, I would try to find minimum dose that has an visible, immediate effect (polyp extension/opening) and use that as a maintenance dose.

IMHO and YMMV, naturally ;)

[Compguy]

I have been dosing Zeo AA's for quite some time now, and just stuck with the normal recommended dose of 1 drop per 25 gallons, so I used to do 4 drops daily during feeding times in which I turn off the return and leave skimmer off overnight when I start the return back up, it has been working great, growth has been good, I recently dropped it down to 3 drops just because of the cost of it and has still been working excellent. What kind of AA do you use, Zeo, I have recently been thinking of switching to Brightwell because of cost, I would assume all AA's are the same, anybody know anything about that, do they both contain the same thing's, obviously they both contain AA but is there anything else in them that would cause such a difference in price?

[cwegescheide]

FWIW I've been dosing zeo amino acids for about 5 mos or so. When I first started dosing I got a wicked algae bloom. Took about 6 weeks for that to subside. After that I dosed ~1/4 reccomended and gradually increased it. If your dosing Zeo AA's the amount on the bottle is the MAXIMUM dose reccomended for a packed tank. I learned the hard way. After my tank got used to the AA's I increased it until I was dosing 2 drops AA's and 3 drops zeofood (has AA's in it as well) daily on an 80 gallon total water volume tank.

Signs of excess is an increase of hair algae growing AND coral tissue darkening. Hope this helps.

You would probably get more qualified help on the zeo forum as well.

Hey Compguy.. From what I've been told Brightwell is more diluted than the Zeo stuff. Where Zeo you might need to add a few drops, brightwell you might need to add closer to a cap full. I would check it out. Zeo might be cheaper in the long run but I don't know.

Chris

[gdm42001]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15148382#post15148382 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by HighlandReefer
Jeremy,

If you dose too much amino acids this can lead to bacterial blooms, which can have an adverse effect on corals and fish. You haven't seen any signs of clear to whitish growth on your glass instead of the normal green algae growth. This may be one of the first signs you will notice.

Sorry, don't wish to HiJack, but....
What is the cure for this Clear Whitish growth?
I have been battling it for some time.

[Compguy]

Chris, I was actually just checking into that, I think you maybe right, for brightwell I think I would end up at like 5mL or more as with zeo the most I do is 4 drops, one question, when you say tissue darkening, what exactly does that mean, like browning?

[cwegescheide]

Umm.. Well for instance I have a tri-color that the base is normally kindof a cream color. If I'm dosing AA's heavy the base will get beige color. If I back off for a week or so the original color will return.

Also FWIW Sponge Power and Pohls Extra are really good supplements too ;)

[jlinzmaier]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15154731#post15154731 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by tatuvaaj
I would be very careful with AA dosing as there are many potential problems with AA overdose. For example, DFAAs can inhibit feeding, disrupt symbiont/host signaling and reduce denitrification. Personally, I would try to find minimum dose that has an visible, immediate effect (polyp extension/opening) and use that as a maintenance dose.

IMHO and YMMV, naturally ;)

Thanks Tatu!! Appreciate your input. I know you've got a great deal of experience in this area.




<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15155231#post15155231 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Compguy
What kind of AA do you use?

I use AAHC by zeo. I run the full zeo regimen.




<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15155291#post15155291 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by cwegescheide
FWIW I've been dosing zeo amino acids for about 5 mos or so. When I first started dosing I got a wicked algae bloom. Took about 6 weeks for that to subside. After that I dosed ~1/4 reccomended and gradually increased it. If your dosing Zeo AA's the amount on the bottle is the MAXIMUM dose reccomended for a packed tank. I learned the hard way. After my tank got used to the AA's I increased it until I was dosing 2 drops AA's and 3 drops zeofood (has AA's in it as well) daily on an 80 gallon total water volume tank.

Signs of excess is an increase of hair algae growing AND coral tissue darkening. Hope this helps.

You would probably get more qualified help on the zeo forum as well.


Chris

I was also under the impression that signs of AA overdose would be algae growth and/or browning of corals. I have neither. What I have experienced, in addition to the limited polyp ext on some corals and some new necrosis, is a very sudden and dramatic polyp retraction from my three stylo colonies immediately after I dose the AA's. I also tried dosing into the sump to limit concentrated exposure to the corals and I got the same reaction. I guess that's a tell tale sign that their unhappy with the dosing.

I have posted the very same info on the zeo forum and haven't gotten any difinitive answers. A major concern of theirs is my potassium level. My kit ran out a few months ago and I continued on with my maintenance dose until my new kit came in. After a long backorder and some jerking around from my supplier, my kit should be in today. I personally don't think this is related to my K+ level but that's the only suggestion from the zeo forum as of yet.

My original intentions with increasing AA dosing above and beyond the bottle dosing was to see if it would encourage better growth. The recommendations on the zeo forum was to also increase some food supplements, decrease the rate of the zeolite reactor, and skim more dry. All of this may have had a significant impact on my TOC. The sudden change in TOC levels may have shocked the corals a bit - just a guess. With all those changes in nutrient management my po4 is still at 0.01-0.02 and my no3 is at 5 which previously ran around 2.5 or less. Not a signicant change in those to nutrients but like what was mentioned before it's tough to get an accurate reading of all TOC.



<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15155356#post15155356 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by gdm42001
Sorry, don't wish to HiJack, but....
What is the cure for this Clear Whitish growth?
I have been battling it for some time.

This can be several things. If your water column is white and cloudy that suggests a bacterial bloom. Decreasing nutrient introduction, decreasing carbon source dosing, increasing nutrient export, skimming wet, and using UV or ozone will certainly help. Without a bit more detail it's tough to diagnose and treat what you've got going on. What I recommended is nothing more than common treatment for bacterial blooms within the water colum. If your whitish growth is something that is growing on the rocks, substrate, or corals you may want to start a new thread with some pics and we'll get it figured out for you.


Appreciate the help everyone!! After I get my potassium kit in today I'll post results and also reply with what the zeo guys are recommending. I appreciate the expertise in zeo on the zeo forum but there is much more extensive reefkeeping knowledge here on RC and I truly appreciate the feedback you guys provide.

I think for starters I'll hold the AA dosing for a week and then resume at about 25% of the bottles recommendation then follow Tatu's recommendation. I'll also do a few 10% water changes over the next week or two and hopefully that will dilute the tanks TOC concentration.

Thanks again everyone!

Jeremy

[Compguy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15155822#post15155822 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by cwegescheide
Umm.. Well for instance I have a tri-color that the base is normally kindof a cream color. If I'm dosing AA's heavy the base will get beige color. If I back off for a week or so the original color will return.

Also FWIW Sponge Power and Pohls Extra are really good supplements too ;)

Ok, because I did notice some of my corals getting a brown color, but I think its because I have 150's on my tank, and it only browns where the light doesn't get to it because of how its growing. I agree with the others you are talking about. I am currently using and have been for along time.

Amino Acid's
Sponge Power
Sea Water Komplex
Pohl's Xtra

I also use Reef Solution by Ecosystem.

[seattleguy]

I have always run GAC in addition to a good skimmer on my tanks. In my opinion GAC absorbs bad stuff in the water that we don't even have ways to test for. The only issue is how often do you change out the carbon and how much to use? I try to do it at least monthly.

What about you Zeo guys? I can't remember do you typically run GAC in your systems?

[Compguy]

I don't run an actual zeo tank, I just use some of there additives, I change out my carbon and GFO on a monthly basis.

[reef_doug]

I've found that overdosing AA can cause brown algae growth on the panes.

ZEO tanks do use GAC, although some carbons are too aggressive for use in ZEO tanks. Many ZEO people run carbon passively or 1/2 dosage actively.

[toaster77]

two things to keep in mind:

AAs are a universal nutrient, corals as well as algae, bacteria will love them.

AAs are a nitrogen source and so too much/waste would lead to production of some nitrates

[jlinzmaier]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15156012#post15156012 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by seattleguy
I have always run GAC in addition to a good skimmer on my tanks. In my opinion GAC absorbs bad stuff in the water that we don't even have ways to test for. The only issue is how often do you change out the carbon and how much to use? I try to do it at least monthly.

What about you Zeo guys? I can't remember do you typically run GAC in your systems?

GAC isn't selective in pulling out only the "bad" stuff we can't test for. It also pulls nutrients and trace elements needed for coral growth and coloration.

Reef Doug is right. When following the zeo regimen, GAC is typically used in low amounts and used passively in a sump.


Toaster77
I haven't had any bacterial blooms but I can't rule out a bacterial infection possibly causing the necrosis. I've also had no further increase in nitrates since the significant increase in AA dosing.

I've had no signs of typical AA overdose that anyone has suggested. No overgrowth of bacteria. No increase in testable nutrients. No increase in algae growth. No browning of corals (excess zoox growth). However, the localized and dramatic reaction of polyp retraction that the stylos show immediately after AA dosing tells me they're obviously irritated by the dosing. They hadn't shown this prior to the increase in AA dosing. This leads me to believe that the AA's could also be causing the general limited polyp ext in other corals. This problem I've had for some time and it was recommended to increase AA's to resolve the problem. The AA's may very well be the problem in the first place, I'm just coincidently seeing a dramatic and sudden reaction in my stylos since the change.

Jeremy

[cwegescheide]

I'd also dip a few corals in revive to make sure you don't have any flatworms.

[jlinzmaier]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15157115#post15157115 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by cwegescheide
I'd also dip a few corals in revive to make sure you don't have any flatworms.

I don't have flatworms. Dipping corals at this point is only going to stress them further. For that mattter, I may as well dose intercepter to make sure I don't have RB's. Those sort of guess type diagnoses and treatements leads to unecessary stress to already stressed corals.

Thanks for the thought.

Jeremy

[tmz]

Jeremy,

What test do you use for K. I don't test for it but may decide to do so.

[jlinzmaier]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15161237#post15161237 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by tmz
Jeremy,

What test do you use for K. I don't test for it but may decide to do so.

I use the KZ test kit. It sucks but it sounds like the only other one on the market is the fauna marine kit and I haven't heard any better remarks about that one either. The KZ test has a very minimal color distinction between good and bad. The zeo guys are very helpful at interpreting if you post a pic. The accuracy of either of the test kits on the market is highly questionable and yet to be confirmed by any means of accurate measurement with a controlled solution or professional testing.

Even though it's a crappy test it's worth the money since the K+ level is so critical in low nutrient systems with bacterial proliferation as the primary means of nutrient management. I wouldn't trust the numbers, but it'll tell you if it's way high or way low. Close to within normal levels (350-400) seems to be OK and the kit seems to be able to provide that little bit of accuracy. Ideal is 380-400 but I don't personally think the KZ kit can provide that bit of accuracy. The color difference is way to minimal and the "personal interpretation variable" is sky high.

Jeremy

[kmckay]

I agree that these are not the signs one is "supposed" to see with AA overdose. However, I have observed these exact effects (decreased or absent polyp extension and patchy tissue loss) two times after initiating AA dosing in an ULNS (vodka methodology in my case). Each time, the corals recovered slowly after the AA were stopped. I think the suggestion of beginning with 1/4 the recommended dose and increasing very slowly is a great idea. In fact it is what I have been doing with great success. IME, AAHC is very powerful stuff and has to be introduced slowly. IMO, the effects you have observed are consistent with AA overdosing.:thumbsup:

[jlinzmaier]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15165187#post15165187 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kmckay
I agree that these are not the signs one is "supposed" to see with AA overdose. However, I have observed these exact effects (decreased or absent polyp extension and patchy tissue loss) two times after initiating AA dosing in an ULNS (vodka methodology in my case). Each time, the corals recovered slowly after the AA were stopped. I think the suggestion of beginning with 1/4 the recommended dose and increasing very slowly is a great idea. In fact it is what I have been doing with great success. IME, AAHC is very powerful stuff and has to be introduced slowly. IMO, the effects you have observed are consistent with AA overdosing.:thumbsup:

Hey thanks!!

At least someone has observed this sort of reaction I've described. I'm going to stop AA dosing for about 1-2 weeks then start up very slowly and see what happens.

I got my K+ kit today and it read around 375-400 so that's not the issue.

Really appreciate everyones help and suggestions. I'll continue to post my results and changes. This may be an odd and/or uncommon reaction to AA dosing and maybe I can save someone some trouble/headaches if they would come across this in the future.

Jeremy