New True Perc Addition...Concern

[Sistom]

I ordered 2 juvenile True Percs from DF&S back in March and sadly, one of them didn't make it through the first week (wouldn't eat). I really wanted a pair, so on Monday I ordered another one from the "doctors" and received him/her/whatever yesterday. I only had my actinics on for a short while after I released the new perc and they seemed to get along without any major fighting. The one thing that I noticed is that the new perc seems to have a cloudiness over his entire body. Doesn't really look like Ich spots from what I can tell, but more of just a faded color when compared to my really healthy and vibrant other perc. Should I be concerned? Is it possibly just due to stress, malnutrition? The new perc is probably a little less than an inch, and my older perc is maybe an inch and a quarter (if that helps).

Any input would be greatly appreciated since if it is a cause for concern I would like to action immediately.

Another thing that I noticed last night was that both my percs were sleeping up in the top corner of the tank near the tank molding. My older perc always sleeps down on the bottom near the same rock (hasn't figured out my RBTA) and I was shocked to see him bobbing (in a normal way, not a dead-type way) near the top with the other one. When I found them, one of them was lying sideways near the top corner and I gently poked him to see if he was alright. He seemed to snap-out-of-it and looked at me like "what?"...I just found it unusual for them to sleep up near the top. Should I be concerned? I woke up this morning and they seemed to be fine? Also, do most clowns bob up and down while sleeping? I don't think I've ever caught mine lying still at night! He must be exhausted!

Thanks Everyone!

[JLopez]

is the new one eating?

my old pair of clowns used to swim like that when the lights went out and when i would wake up in the morning they would be sleeping up against the silicone. this stopped once i got them an anemone.

[Sistom]

Thanks for the response.

Yes, I threw some brine shrimp in there yesterday and they all ate (bought a bunch of fish/corals). So that was promising. But what about the faded look of the new perc? Is that pretty common with new arrivals? None of the other fish I got had a noticeable faded appearance.

[ILLiDaN]

only time i have seen fish with a faded appearance is when wild caught onyx start losing their dark coloration and makes them look like a muddy brown.

[Sistom]

Well, the problem appears to be getting worse with my new True Perc. Today it looks like his skin is actually peeling/falling off in parts... Can anyone identify what is going on? I am getting a tank set up as immediately to treat whatever it may be.

Please help! Any and all info will be greatly appreciated (identification/treatment/etc.)

Thanks

<img src="http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/198307Right_Side_1.JPG" />

<img src="http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/198307Left_Side_1.JPG " />

[ocellaris123]

Your perc has brooklynella. You need to qt him and treat right away or you will lose him soon. Freshwater/formalin can be used as treatments.

[1geo]

+1 ocellaris 123 If you don't act quickly you will lose BOTH of your Perculas. If one has Brook, all have Brook. You can start with a fresh water dip to give it some relief but the only cure is Formalin baths. There are tons of instructions on the internet on how to do this so google "treatment for Brooklynella" you also need to act FAST. Brook can kill in a matter of days.

[rkelman]

Absolutely its Brook. Formalin baths are your best bet. I also have used AP's "Quick Cure" as a treatment in the QT water with success. (its formalin based) I would guess that fish has less than 24 hours so you need to move fast. Treat both fish even if the other has no symptoms. You should always quarantine new fish additions to avoid this problem in the future.

[Sistom]

Thank you both for your response.

The new Perc looked really rough this morning and I think it was too late to do anything for him even if I would have known what the problem was. He didn't make it.... My question now is, will this affect any of the other fish in my tank? Or just the other perc? I have a total of 9 fish in my mixed reef tank and I don't want to lose anything else. I have set up a 10 gallon QT and will do whatever’s necessary.

I'm in the process of reading up on treating Brooklynella and will begin treatment tomorrow if necessary on the other fish in the tank.

Thanks again everyone :(

[rkelman]

I'm sorry to hear about your loss. Your other fish can still get brook. What fish do you have? Its going to be pretty tough to QT 9 fish.

[Sistom]

Ok, I’ve read up on treating brook and have set up my quarantine tank for a hyposalinity treatment at 14 ppt and will begin formalin treatment tomorrow (will have to do some research to find out where I can pick some up). I moved my other perc to the QT and he did look a little faded, but ate well, and doesn’t show any other symptoms. I’m hoping the hyposalinity of the tank will keep the parasites at bay until I can get some formalin tomorrow.

In regards to my other tank inhabitants; I have the following fish in my display tank.

Sailfin Blenny
Blue/Green Reef Chromis (3)
Six Line Wrasse
Royal Gramma Basslet
Firefish, Purple (2)

Will I have to treat all of these fish for brook as well??? Any advice on how I can do this if it’s necessary? I do have enough equipment that I could use my 10 gallon QT tank for half the fish and a 20 gallon clear tub that I’ve stored water in before for the others? I’ve been making water all day so I might be able to do that if necessary. Any advice or input would be appreciated.

Thanks everyone!

Here’s a pic of my perc in the quarantine tank.

<img src="http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/198307QT_Clown.JPG" />

[Toddrtrex]

The QT already has its salinity that low? What was the salinity of the DT ? Did you acclimate the clown to the lower salinity?

[Sistom]

My display tank is at 1.023sg and I did acclimate the clown before putting him in there. Should I not be doing this? From what I read, the hyposalinity treatment will help slow the brook and once I start the formalin treatment it will help eliminate the possibility of re infecting the QT between formalin treatments. Is this not a good idea? I thought 14ppt was really low, but it sounded like fish were capable of handling it and parasites are not. Let me know.

Thanks for the input

[Toddrtrex]

They are capable of handling low salinity -- but need to bring it down slowly. But, at this point it doesn't matter -- it is already in there. When it is ready to go back into the DT, bring the salinity back up over a week's time.

[Sistom]

I see what your saying...That probably was a bit of a shock regardless of how long I acclimated him over the course of an hour...On the way back up to my display tank salinity I will gradually increase the QT water over the course of a week so its a nice gradual increase.

Thanks!

So, Is it going to be necessary to treat my other fish for brook? I would imagine the treatment is going to be hard on the fish and if It's not necessary, I would rather not stress them...open to all thoughts and opinions...

[1geo]

Brooklynella is a parasite. It multiplies by cell division. The new cells are swimmers and can stay in your tank for up to 4 weeks without finding a host fish. So your tank is full of swimmers and they will latch on to your fish. You can assume if one fish in the tanks has Brook, ALL the fish have Brook even though they do not exhibit any symptoms. You need to remove ALL the fish from your tanks and keep it fallow for at least 6 weeks. In the case of Ich, 8 weeks. I you put fish back in early they will be reinfected and all your efforts lost. Formalin is the only thing that will cure Brook but it will also cure Ich so for me its the chemical of choice. When you treat them you cannot have anything else in the tank, no live sand, live rock, coral, invertebrates, etc, JUST FISH. And then only scaled fish. I only deal with clowns but you have a variety of fish so check and make sure its safe to give them formalin baths. YOU HAVE TO TREAT ALL YOUR FISH, not just the one exhibiting symptoms. One thing about formalin, it dissipates in water, it is not accumulative. So once mixed you have to use it right away and you have to remix it for each bath, you cannot use yesterday's bath water. After 2 hours the water that the formalin was in is no longer effective as a bath. Read all you can. The way I do it, I take one gallon of water from the QT tank and mix in 1 cc of 37% Formalin; make sure you put in an air stone. Using the QT water I don't have to worry about having matched SG and PH or Temperature. I then transfer the fish to the bath and leave it in there for 45 minutes to 60 minutes; the longer the better. Keep an eye on the fish and if it exhibits extreme stress put it back in the QT tank. Two days later I do the same thing until I have gone through 5 baths. Read and Good Luck.

[Sistom]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15196967#post15196967 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by 1geo
Brooklynella is a parasite. It multiplies by cell division. The new cells are swimmers and can stay in your tank for up to 4 weeks without finding a host fish. So your tank is full of swimmers and they will latch on to your fish. You can assume if one fish in the tanks has Brook, ALL the fish have Brook even though they do not exhibit any symptoms. You need to remove ALL the fish from your tanks and keep it fallow for at least 6 weeks. In the case of Ich, 8 weeks. I you put fish back in early they will be reinfected and all your efforts lost. Formalin is the only thing that will cure Brook but it will also cure Ich so for me its the chemical of choice. When you treat them you cannot have anything else in the tank, no live sand, live rock, coral, invertebrates, etc, JUST FISH. And then only scaled fish. I only deal with clowns but you have a variety of fish so check and make sure its safe to give them formalin baths. YOU HAVE TO TREAT ALL YOUR FISH, not just the one exhibiting symptoms. One thing about formalin, it dissipates in water, it is not accumulative. So once mixed you have to use it right away and you have to remix it for each bath, you cannot use yesterday's bath water. After 2 hours the water that the formalin was in is no longer effective as a bath. Read all you can. The way I do it, I take one gallon of water from the QT tank and mix in 1 cc of 37% Formalin; make sure you put in an air stone. Using the QT water I don't have to worry about having matched SG and PH or Temperature. I then transfer the fish to the bath and leave it in there for 45 minutes to 60 minutes; the longer the better. Keep an eye on the fish and if it exhibits extreme stress put it back in the QT tank. Two days later I do the same thing until I have gone through 5 baths. Read and Good Luck.


Thank you 1geo for the great information! You answered a lot of the remaining questions I had. I think I will buy a 20 gallon long tank and put all the fish in there for the 6 week stay (unless the 9 fish will be fine in my 10 gallon QT? They are all still fairly young). Would you recommend still doing the dip method of formalin 3 or should I try the long-term bath and just treat the entire 20 gallon QT? My only concern is having to move 9 fish through the dip every day for 5 treatments. I’m not even sure how I’m going to catch all the fish in my DT, so I can only imagine having to catch all 9 every day for 5 days of treatment. If a long term bath will be equally as effective, I think that will save me a lot of hassle…Either way, I will do what’s best. Just wanted your opinion.

So, I will place my order today after work for some formalin 3 and Maracyn 2 (per another article I read to treat the QT) and have it here in 2 days. Should I keep my quarantine tank at a lowered salinity to stave off re-infecting the fish between cycles? The salinity in my QT I have set up now is at 14ppt (around 1.009sg)?

Thanks again for all your help!

Oh, and so far I haven’t been able to find anything regarding what fish can/cant be treated with formalin? Anyone have any input on this?

[rkelman]

I'd get the 20g tank. All those fish in a 10g tank wouldn't be good. You are going to have to match the salinity / ph between the display and the QT before you transfer all those fish... Its going to be tough to dip all of those fish for sure. I'd personally do the long term bath with daily additions of Formalin just because of the ease of use. I feel that the dips are probably quicker at killing the parasite although I've never used that method. I think I would skip the hypo unless you are seeing signs of ich. I think your fish list should be ok with Formalin. You don't have anything overly sensitive there I don't think. (I don't have experience with the Wrasse or firefish)

Don't put the Maracyn in with the Formalin.. 1 thing at a time.

[1geo]

Some scaleless species will not tolerate Formalin at any dose. This is a quote from a book see http://books.google.com/books?id=btextrlLAm8C&pg=PA122&lpg=PA122&dq=formalin+scaleless+fish&source=bl&ots=SAcIOF5NpX&sig=1jYab-zCfVduhU6mRby8UvJduFQ&hl=en&ei=p8g2SsuLI8Kytwf62LD5Dg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5#PPA122,M1
Why not split your fish into 2 10 gal tanks. I know of no rule that you can not treat 2 or 3 fish at a time especially if they are small.
Putting formalin directly into the QT tank will kill any swimmers in the tank but will not cure your fish. The only effective way is the baths. Remember, formalin does not accumulate; after 2 hours the water is theoretically reef safe. The same would happen in the QT tank. Any swimmers in the water would die but not those embedded in the fish and on their gills. For that you need the stronger solution of the bath. If you have access to PetSmart, they have a 2.5 gal tank. you could move 2 gals of water from your 10 gal QT tank and use 2 cc of Formalin in the 2 gals for a bath. you should be able to put 4 fish at a time in this tank. Just make sure you keep a close eye on them for extreme stress and mix up a new batch of water and formalin before the next bath. There is a product put out by FishVet called Revive. If you use it on your main tank it will kill all of the Brook swimmers in the tank without harming your other creatures. So if its definitely Brook Revive will eliminate it from the main tank. If your fish have Ich, this will not work because Ich has an egg stage and Revive will only kill the swimmers. Just a though. As to the salinity, unless you know what you are doing and have a refractometer to measure the exact SG you are playing with fire. I would slowly raise the salinity back to where it should be and depend on the Formalin to cure your fish. Fresh water baths may give them relief but 2 days is a long time when you have Brooklynella. Good luck, 1geo

[rkelman]

I believe all of the fish listed have scales right?

"Putting formalin directly into the QT tank will kill any swimmers in the tank but will not cure your fish"

Actually I've used it on a couple occasions and it did indeed cure the fish. The effect of Formalin on Ich is debatable some have luck with it. I've honestly never tried.

[iFisch]

Wow. Although I learned a significant amount of info from this thread, most DEFIANTLY hit up DFS for a refund.

Was this a wild caught, tank bred, or ORA fish? Was the fish purchased from Divers Den?

I know they quarantine their DD fish extremely well. And I would be surprised if it's a DD fish AND has brook. They should have caught this when the imported the fish.


Sorry, I cannot comment any further. And sorry about your loss. I lost a wild caught perc and have never looked back at buying ORA, or tank bred at the least. I won't spend any more money on anything wild caught.

My damsel has came complete with the cycle, and obviously we all know how hardy these fish already are. But the damsel dances with my ORA clown, almost as if they were a pair. It's weird to describe and even weirder to watch. :lol:

[Sistom]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15198478#post15198478 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by 1geo
Some scaleless species will not tolerate Formalin at any dose. This is a quote from a book see http://books.google.com/books?id=btextrlLAm8C&pg=PA122&lpg=PA122&dq=formalin+scaleless+fish&source=bl&ots=SAcIOF5NpX&sig=1jYab-zCfVduhU6mRby8UvJduFQ&hl=en&ei=p8g2SsuLI8Kytwf62LD5Dg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5#PPA122,M1
Why not split your fish into 2 10 gal tanks. I know of no rule that you can not treat 2 or 3 fish at a time especially if they are small.
Putting formalin directly into the QT tank will kill any swimmers in the tank but will not cure your fish. The only effective way is the baths. Remember, formalin does not accumulate; after 2 hours the water is theoretically reef safe. The same would happen in the QT tank. Any swimmers in the water would die but not those embedded in the fish and on their gills. For that you need the stronger solution of the bath. If you have access to PetSmart, they have a 2.5 gal tank. you could move 2 gals of water from your 10 gal QT tank and use 2 cc of Formalin in the 2 gals for a bath. you should be able to put 4 fish at a time in this tank. Just make sure you keep a close eye on them for extreme stress and mix up a new batch of water and formalin before the next bath. There is a product put out by FishVet called Revive. If you use it on your main tank it will kill all of the Brook swimmers in the tank without harming your other creatures. So if its definitely Brook Revive will eliminate it from the main tank. If your fish have Ich, this will not work because Ich has an egg stage and Revive will only kill the swimmers. Just a though. As to the salinity, unless you know what you are doing and have a refractometer to measure the exact SG you are playing with fire. I would slowly raise the salinity back to where it should be and depend on the Formalin to cure your fish. Fresh water baths may give them relief but 2 days is a long time when you have Brooklynella. Good luck, 1geo

Wow! Again, thanks everyone for the input! This has been a very informative thread and a great community of knowledge!

After the initial shock of the severity of the situation I buckled down and ironed out a plan. I purchased a 20 gal long (might use it as a future frag tank :) ), purchased some ceiling egg crate, and some white "veil" meshing from a hobby store to make a giant net of sorts and a tank top. After getting home and attempting to just catch a fish (any fish) I realized it's not going to be an easy task. I'm still not sure how I'm going to get them out of the DT, but I plan on making a big net to basically sit on the bottom of the 20g tank and when I need to remove the fish, I can just gradually raise the net (it will have sides as well) and scoop the fish out much easier with specimen cup.

I will do the formalin bath as suggestion and probably do it in batches of 3 fish while making of new batch of formalin solution for each bath. I will gradually bring the salinity back up for the one clown and keep it at 1.023sg for the 20g tank. I do have a refractometer so I will be able to accurately measure things. Since I have a few 5 gal buckets, the bath will be done in there with an airstone keeping things aerated.

I found the “Revive" by FishVet and will purchase that as well to treat the display tank.

Basically, as long as my fish can hold out for a couple more days I think we are on the right track! My purple firefish was not looking to healthy today when I got home from work but as soon as I got the net in there he took off towards the rocks. I was a bit overwhelmed and decided to attempt catching all the fish tomorrow. If anyone has any suggestions to catch all my fish I would really appreciate it. A net immediately scares them into the rockwork and I have a bad feeling I'm going to have to tear my entire reef apart to get them…

Thanks again everyone for your help! It's been a community effort and I can't thank you enough.

I'll try to take some pics as soon as I make some progress on the 20g.

[1geo]

Your best bet on catching the fish is to go a variety store like T. J. Max, Kmart, Target, WalMart, etc, and get a large cylindrical clear glass vessel. Something about a foot long and 6 inches in diameter. I found one that is intended to be a flower vase and has a base but it works just fine. Lay this on its side in the bottom of the tank. Using a long dowel rod gently herd your fish into the vessel one or two at a time. Once in, put your hand on the open end and upright the vessel. Pour some of the water off and transfer your fish without ever touching it or using a net. Nets can do damage and you do NOT want to give a fish that has an open wound a formalin bath; it would probably kill it.

[Sistom]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15199544#post15199544 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by iFisch
Wow. Although I learned a significant amount of info from this thread, most DEFIANTLY hit up DFS for a refund.

Was this a wild caught, tank bred, or ORA fish? Was the fish purchased from Divers Den?

I know they quarantine their DD fish extremely well. And I would be surprised if it's a DD fish AND has brook. They should have caught this when the imported the fish.


Sorry, I cannot comment any further. And sorry about your loss. I lost a wild caught perc and have never looked back at buying ORA, or tank bred at the least. I won't spend any more money on anything wild caught.

My damsel has came complete with the cycle, and obviously we all know how hardy these fish already are. But the damsel dances with my ORA clown, almost as if they were a pair. It's weird to describe and even weirder to watch. :lol:

Yes, I will be calling DFS tomorrow with my losses and to explain to them that I will be treating several of the other fish that I purchased from them in the order. I'm hoping that they will work with me and possibly extend my warranty window past the 7 days due to the circumstances and the possibility that I might lose some additional fish during the treatment.

The true perc that I ordered was not from the divers den but I do believe it was wild caught since it said it was from Singapore. I should have quarantined all of the fish in that order but since it was from a reputable place, I thought they would have caught something major like that. I know, I know! It's my fault and I have learned my lesson. I even have a quarantine setup that I purchased when I was planning my whole setup last October! Ugh, I'm kicking myself in the butt now. But even then, all 5 fish that I ordered would have been infected in the QT. Yes, it would have been easier to treat, but I still don't think they should have sent that perc in the condition it was. The pictures above are pretty much how he looked when I got him. I knew something was wrong, but I thought he might just be stressed and unhealthy. I am fairly new to the hobby (mixed reef tank since January) but I also have done a lot of homework and have been trolling on Reef Central for over a year. I am by no means an expert, but I'm also not one of those people that rush into the hobby without doing the research necessary to maintain a long term reef aquarium.

Thanks again everyone!

[Sistom]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15200573#post15200573 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by 1geo
Your best bet on catching the fish is to go a variety store like T. J. Max, Kmart, Target, WalMart, etc, and get a large cylindrical clear glass vessel. Something about a foot long and 6 inches in diameter. I found one that is intended to be a flower vase and has a base but it works just fine. Lay this on its side in the bottom of the tank. Using a long dowel rod gently herd your fish into the vessel one or two at a time. Once in, put your hand on the open end and upright the vessel. Pour some of the water off and transfer your fish without ever touching it or using a net. Nets can do damage and you do NOT want to give a fish that has an open wound a formalin bath; it would probably kill it.

I did see large cylindrical vases at the hobby store and considered trying that. My only concern is that these fish are VERY skittish and hide in the rockwork as soon as anything foreign enters the tank. I will give it a try, but I don't have a lot of room to work with and have way to much rock in there for them to hide. I have a feeling its going to be a nightmare regardless of how I approach it....

I will give it a try!

[iFisch]

The only fish I would "dump" /add after acclimating, into my tank are ORA specimens. I always purchase anything ORA locally (LFS QT's ALL ORA fish for 1 month before selling them) Tank bred and raised, or the DD fish from DFS, since the DD fish go through extensive QT'ing.

[Sistom]

Has anyone purchased from Customaquatics.com? It was the most reputable place I could find revive by Fish Vet but my browser had some strange error when I went to checkout and it made me leery. They have a 1 800 number that I will try tomorrow to see how legit it sounds...