Remote ro/di and SW for auto exchange and ATO

[Hawkdl2]

RO/DO and SW will be made in the garage in Brute containers. Rather than have reservoirs near the tank I would like to pump these fluids from the garage, which will be about 40 feet of line away. I have a bar area near the tank to send waste SW, so I don't have to pump both directions. What type of pump and line size am I likely to need to accomplish this?

[boz151]

I have the same type of remote h2o locations and pump the RO continuously for evap topoff with a Sentry dosing pump from reefdosingpumps.com. For SW during h2o changes, I use a large powerhead with 1/2" tubing.

[coralfragger101]

While not cheap - the Liter Meter III would suit your needs.

I have a Liter Meter III, their ATO and 2 Water Exchange Modules.

I use the dosing pump on the main unit to dose Kalkwasser as top off water. I use one of the extra pumps to pump SW out of the sump and down a drain and the other one to pump fresh SW into the sump as an auto water changer. I use the ATO as a back up in case something fails - it will kill the pumps if the water level rises too high in the sump.

It's easy to program. You can change out just about any amount of water you want automatically with it. I have it changing out just one gallon per day but if I ever wanted a major water change it's just a matter of reprogramming it and it could say do a 30 gal water change the next day.

It's also got the power to pump from like 25 feet below the pump to something like 60 feet above the pump so your 40 foot horizontal stretch would be nothing for it to accomplish. And it uses the regular 1/4" tubing.

[Hawkdl2]

It sounds like some sort of peristaltic pump is the way to go. Thanks.

Boz151. Is there a particular reason you're using 1/2" line? Is this for for a flow rate you want or because the powerhead can't handle the friction loose from smaller diameter tubing.

[coralfragger101]

I think he just uses the 1/2" tubing for water changes. The diameter of the output of Maxi-Jet powerheads IS 1/2" so he probably uses that because it fits.

[Hawkdl2]

I'm skeptical that a maxijet can pump fluids long distances. Maybe he'll post what "large powerhead" he uses - I'm certainly curious.

My plan was to use 1/4" water filter line since I have about 500 feet of it from when I made calcium reactors.

[klasiksb]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15196457#post15196457 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by coralfragger101
While not cheap - the Liter Meter III would suit your needs.

I have a Liter Meter III, their ATO and 2 Water Exchange Modules.

I use the dosing pump on the main unit to dose Kalkwasser as top off water. I use one of the extra pumps to pump SW out of the sump and down a drain and the other one to pump fresh SW into the sump as an auto water changer. I use the ATO as a back up in case something fails - it will kill the pumps if the water level rises too high in the sump.

It's easy to program. You can change out just about any amount of water you want automatically with it. I have it changing out just one gallon per day but if I ever wanted a major water change it's just a matter of reprogramming it and it could say do a 30 gal water change the next day.

It's also got the power to pump from like 25 feet below the pump to something like 60 feet above the pump so your 40 foot horizontal stretch would be nothing for it to accomplish. And it uses the regular 1/4" tubing.

I am going to be doing the same thing as you with the water exchange module. I will be running an ATO as well.

I am not sure how to set it up so the removal and addition of SW doesn't affect the ATO. Any insight? Or are they removed and replaced fast enough that it shouldn't effect the ATO?

Sump is going to be a 100gal. rubbermaid, with a dual float ATO. It is not seperated into chambers, so there will be a longer time before ATO comes on, but it will run longer.

[Rizup]

With the LM3, water is added and removed at the same time, so the water level in the sump does not fluctuate.

Mike

[klasiksb]

Ah, I thought they ran opposite.

[Rizup]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15198730#post15198730 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Rizup
With the LM3, water is added and removed at the same time, so the water level in the sump does not fluctuate.

Mike

Of course that is when using an additional pump. You would need the LM3 and an additional pump to achieve water changes. Just wanted to be clear.

[Indymann99]

I use a Mag 5 to pump water change water OUT of my sump and to my basement drain. I then change some valves and a Mag 9.5 (in my mix tank) pumps fresh SW back to the sump. I ran PVC around the wall in the basement prior to finishing. Distance is about 40 feet. The Mag 5 drains my sump skimmer compartment in about 1 min. Complete 20g waterchange from start to finish is less than 5min.

This config also lets me pump DT/sump water to my QT if I want, or fresh SW to my QT. Oh and I put a small submersible pump in my QT at the waterchange level to pump out. If you can tell I dont like buckets... :D

The pvc is about 1 foot off the floor and runs around the wall from the left of the kickout (where ladders are stacked)

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn10/Indymann99/Tankframing.jpg

PVC runs into mix room with RO, Mix tank, and QT.

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn10/Indymann99/QTinMixRm.jpg

and finished room

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn10/Indymann99/Basement52009.jpg

[coralfragger101]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15198819#post15198819 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Rizup
Of course that is when using an additional pump. You would need the LM3 and an additional pump to achieve water changes. Just wanted to be clear.

I'm using two water exchange modules to accomplish the water change. Not the LM3 and additional pump. And they do not do it at the same time. It would mess with the ATO since they don't do it at the same time which is one of the reasons I opted NOT to use the ATO sensor as the ATO but use it as a failsafe. If either the LM3 puts too much kalkwasser in the tank and the water rises too high, the ATO sensor will kill the LM3. IF the two pumps aren't exactly calibrated correctly and the sump slowly rises due to the water changing, it will eventually stop the LM3 from running as well. Now if it slowly falls then I'm in trouble although I would notice it and simply make adjustments.

So if I don't use the ATO sensor as an ATO then what am I using?

Simply the LM3 itself. I played with it till I figured out the evaporation rate. This may change over time but the amount it will change will more than likely be insignificant. And if it does change, then I just change the amount I need dosed.

The major think I like about the LM3 is that it doesn't do things all at once. Whatever it does it does in 1 / 150th of a dose. In other words if you want it to add 2 gallons per day of evap water to the tank it will do the math and add small amounts 150 times throughout the 24 hr period. So any changes will occur slowly.

AHHHAA - I do see what Rizup is talking about though. There is a second A port on the side of the unit. I'll bet if you plug a pump into that then it will imitate the main unit so that you could have water exchanging at the same time.

I'm already set up but if I have any problems with it I will rearrange things and try it that way.

[coralfragger101]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15197785#post15197785 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Hawkdl2
I'm skeptical that a maxijet can pump fluids long distances. Maybe he'll post what "large powerhead" he uses - I'm certainly curious.

My plan was to use 1/4" water filter line since I have about 500 feet of it from when I made calcium reactors.

The way Boz worded things I don't think he has an "auto" water exchanger. He is simply using any ol pump to get water out to do water changes. Could be a Mag drive as well. That's what I use to do and I used 1/2" tubing as well.

[Hawkdl2]

That what I suspect too. My house is sort of a "U" shape with the garage at the end of one arm of the "U" and the room where the tank will be at the end of the other arm. Being on a slab, and with an attic that reaches 120+ in the summer, my plan is to run the line right through the two walls and across the "U" from tip to tip. The space is shaded and never gets above 95 or so, plus there's some architectural members that span the space that I'll attach the line to, but I would prefer the line to be un-noticeable- hence wanting to use 1/4".

What Im trying to do is achieve complete automation for water changes as well as have an ATO for dosing kalk. I'm getting the new Neptune Apex and my plan is to have the Apex turn off the ATO during pre-set WC periods. I think this should work.

[Rizup]

You could also pick up a dual head reef filler pump from ChampionLighting. They are less than $350 and one unit will automate your waterchanges. They have several different models depending on how many gallons per day you need to pump and can be turned down.

[Hawkdl2]

I think I'd prefer two stand alone pumps at the SW and Ro-DI storage end rather than one dual head unit so I can control them more easily. I like the idea of using a diaphragm pump for the long distance though I'm sure the LMIII would work.

I found this on the bay for general fluid transfer. I can't tell if the head is all non-metallic, but it seems like it would at least work for RO-DI. Anyone ever try a pump like this?

ebay pump (http://cgi.ebay.com/SHURflo-On-Demand-Diaphragm-Pump-1-GPM-60-PSI-12V_W0QQitemZ220434845347QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item3352f0cea3&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=65%3A12|66%3A2|39%3A1|72%3A1205|240%3A1318|301%3A0|293%3A1|294%3A50)

[coralfragger101]

Getting two separate pumps to match water movement amounts exactly will be tough since plumbing restrictions, head, etc all play a role in the end flow rate. (but I could be wrong if they are parastilic (sp))

You will save yourself a lot of grief buying something that was made for the job. Liter Meter III or a Dual Head pump.

[Rizup]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15201299#post15201299 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by coralfragger101
Getting two separate pumps to match water movement amounts exactly will be tough since plumbing restrictions, head, etc all play a role in the end flow rate. (but I could be wrong if they are parastilic (sp))

You will save yourself a lot of grief buying something that was made for the job. Liter Meter III or a Dual Head pump.

I agree 100%. If you are doing this to make your life easier by not having to do waterchanges, it is well worth the expense. The LM3 or ReefFiller pumps will last for a long time. Definitely an expense that will pay for itself in time saved.

Mike

[Hawkdl2]

Maybe I'm not seeing the set up the same way. As I see it, I need two unrelated pumps in the garage: one for the remote ATO that is entirely controlled by float switches in the sump, and one to pump new SW to the tank during exchanges. A third pump would be in or near the tank itself and used to pump SW to waste during exchanges. I don't know how sophisticated the Apex controller will be but I thought I could use the ATO float switches to normally control ATO, of course, but at preset times instead use them to control SW exchange. I could perform the exchange either as sequential events or concurrent events - old out and new in, but in either case use the ATO floats to prevent overfilling over draining. I suspect concurrent exchanges would be more practical.

In any case, doing it this way seems to negate the need for perfectly balanced pumps. Cost isn't really an issue, but I am interested in figuring this out using low cost alternatives so it becomes affordable for more people to try it.

[sclaussen]

I use a Mag 5 to pump water change water OUT of my sump and to my basement drain. I then change some valves and a Mag 9.5 (in my mix tank) pumps fresh SW back to the sump. I ran PVC around the wall in the basement prior to finishing. Distance is about 40 feet. The Mag 5 drains my sump skimmer compartment in about 1 min. Complete 20g waterchange from start to finish is less than 5min.

This config also lets me pump DT/sump water to my QT if I want, or fresh SW to my QT. Oh and I put a small submersible pump in my QT at the waterchange level to pump out. If you can tell I dont like buckets... :D


Indy - I was thinking about doing something similar in my new 90g build. I was thinking about 'reusing' the sump return pump (Eheim 1262) by closing the valve to the DT and opening another valve that eventually finds its way to a drain.

Couple questions for you:
Do you turn your return pump off during your water changes?
How did you design your sump such that you can suck 20g out of the skimmer section (assuming the return is temporarily off)?
How does this system interact with your ATO system? (you turn it on/off? are your float switches high)?
Do you also auto-fill your ATO and/or auto-fill your sump from your RODI container?

Thanks,
Shane

[Cariba]

Good questions sclaussen....

My thoughts exactly, I too am building a new 92 gal system, with a Eheim 1262 return pump and also was considering using this pump (teed off) for removal of sump water durring water changes.

I was going to set up two remote resorvoirs, one for SW, the other for ATO water.

I don't need the SW changes to be automatic, so I was thinking of using the Eheim to pump water out...but now I see the issue that if your out pump pumps more than the in pump, it could cause issues...

I see how a LMT3 or dual head pump system would work much easier....more research for me!

[sclaussen]

I have decided to let the system continue to run and use the lm3 and a liter meter water exchange pump to do continuous water changes. I have a tunze for ato but have not yet decided how I will plumb that (I may use an intermediate reservoir of rodi plumbed to my primary rodi storage).

Shane

[Cariba]

So with your system the water change is done with the liter meter, and is that the only use for the liter meter? So it pumps water out, then the same amount in, a few times per week?

[sclaussen]

Here's my overall plan (I'm actively pulling this together right now):

I have to 40g storage tanks, one for RODI, one for NSW, plumbed together. I will also create a third ATO reservoir tank (I'm trying to decide the size right now, assuming 10g or so).

For ATO:
I will turn a few knobs on my 40g/40g tanks to pump water from my 40g RODI storage into my 10g ATO reservoir. I will then use the Tunze Osmo 3155 to pull from there to ATO my sump's return section.

For Continuous Water Change:
I will change about 10% of my water a week - right now my total system volume is around 106g (90g DT + 16g Sump) - so that's 10.6g a week - that means the LM3 will pump out 38ml of water 150 times a day (every 10 minutes or so). I pump this directly into a drain. I then have the Liter Meter Water Exchange Unit pumping 38ml 150 times a day into the tank from my 40g NSW tank.

So pump wise I'm using:
- Eheim 1262 return pump to feed DT and Refugium (on during water changes)
- PanWorld 40PX to pump RODI into NSW and to pump RODI into ATO reservoir
- Tunze 3155 to pump RODI from ATO reservoir into sump
- Liter Meter 3 to pump water out of the sump into a drain
- Liter Meter 3 Water Exchange Unit to pump NSW into the sump

I have a separate dosing pump as well - but it's independent of this system.

Make sense?

Thanks,
Shane

[Cariba]

Wow, okay, basicly one pump for any water movment....so your litemeter is controling your water out, and I'm assuming your have it controling your dosing you do, AND the water exchange unit/pump right.

Just a few questions:

Is that the norm (in reef keeping) to have water exchange done graual (like 150 times per day) as you are doing? Is there a reason why you dont do a 10% or a 5% change all in one day/two days?...not so gradual,,,cause really your are removing some of the new salt water you added as well. Perhaps this is the most opitmal method....just curious.

I am use to changing 10% all at once, but that's manual and without equipment like pumps and the litemeter.

I'm assuming at one point you will need to pause your water change to fill up and mix your saltwater container right?

With the litemeter you can set up the water changes to be done everyother day correct? or every friday if you wanted to...?

Thanks,

[sclaussen]

Wow, okay, basicly one pump for any water movment....so your litemeter is controling your water out, and I'm assuming your have it controling your dosing you do, AND the water exchange unit/pump right.

Remember that I'm just planning and building this and I don't have any experience running it yet! It might be a total flop - but it's been interesting trying to figure it all out if nothing else!

I plan to use a pair of Liter Meter pumps to do the continuous water change. I bought a Bubble Magnus Doser to dose 2 part solution.

Is that the norm (in reef keeping) to have water exchange done graual (like 150 times per day) as you are doing?

I'm a rookie so that's hard for me to say.

Is there a reason why you dont do a 10% or a 5% change all in one day/two days?...not so gradual,,,cause really your are removing some of the new salt water you added as well. Perhaps this is the most opitmal method....just curious.

Here's a very well written article on the topic that I found that I thought was helpful.

Reef Alchemy (http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-10/rhf/index.php)

The reason I decided to do it this way is that I spend a lot of weekends rock climbing and not water changing! I basically wanted to minimize the maintenance overhead where I could w/out sacrificing the health of the tank. I seriously considered an option where I could turn off my return pump, change a valve, and use my return pump to pump water into a drain, and another pump to get water from my NSW reservoir into the sump... Anyway - the Liter Meter didn't cost that much more - and it appears it'll make things a lot simpler. We'll see how it works.

I am use to changing 10% all at once, but that's manual and without equipment like pumps and the litemeter.

Yep - that's what I do w/my 29g cube - 10-20%/week.

I'm assuming at one point you will need to pause your water change to fill up and mix your saltwater container right?

Yep - unless I want to buy yet another NSW tank (which I don't)! This sounds like a good task for my Apex.

With the litemeter you can set up the water changes to be done everyother day correct? or every friday if you wanted to...?

I don't know yet how programmable the LM is - but if not - I should be able to use the Apex to provide this level of control.

I just documented what I plan to do on my build thread in more detail here:
My 90g Build Thread (http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?p=18165616#post18165616)

Thanks,
Shane